More Info On Possible CIA Plane

LPLAspotter · Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:16 pm

Does anyone know more about the following aircraft?

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Photo © João Resendes - Azores Spotters

I have it from a reliable source that the Danish Media is reporting that it is actually a CIA plane used to ferry prisoners. Maybe true, maybe not, but strange to see a CASA with an N number operating in Europe no?

LPLAspotter
PS: Please lets not start a flame war

EI321 · Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:16 am

Has it been seen in SNN I wonder, that would be a clue. There was an N-Reg GIV that was always going through SNN recently and it was claimed that it was transporting prisoners to Gutanamo. This was never proved though.

TheSorcerer · Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:54 am

One of the "torture express" A/C (as they're referred to) was supposedly seen in Prague earlier this year.
Why would they use a CASA to transport prisoners all the way down to Cuba?
a BBJ would make a lot more sense.

The Sorcerer

jorge1812 · Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:12 am

There was a thread about those planes because a German Magazine used Anet pics. There it was a BBJ.
German Spotters Help Pls, My Picture In Focus (by Fly-K May 28 2005 in Aviation Photography)

Maybe some more info in that thread.

Georg

SkyexRamper · Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:45 am

It’s no secret anymore that the CIA has a fleet of corporate jets; BBJs, GIVs, Lear Jets and such to move terrorist around the world, in discreet fashion, to deliver them to other countries to be jailed. They are based out of Virginia, which just happens to be the home state of CIA. Wink

pinsent · Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:52 am

That aircraft has been parked on our ramp (Cougar Helicopters) in YYT several times in the past 6 months. One instance (August) Canadian Customs and the RCMP were all over it with dogs and people. Weird stuff. Always wondered who owned it and why it was in Newfoundland.

LPLAspotter · Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:14 pm

Interesting responses to my post. It frequents in Azores as a fuel stop while crossing the Atlantic. It's window shades are always down.

Last night on CNN they were reporting that the US were allowed by Romanian and Czech governments to hold prisoners in jails built in those countries by the US. Just a rumor, but everytime I see this plane (which is not that frequent by the way) it makes things puzzling.

thanks for the replies. Hope more are coming.

cheers:
LPLAspotter

Ilovenz · Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:35 pm

There was also a recent Human Rights Watch report that said prisoners are being held in several eastern european towns in secret jails, which may explain their presence in places like PRG and others. The report and it's publicity apparently have the US intelligence pretty pissed off.

Keep it up identifying these aircraft. Even though it's a very small thing, it's helping us break the thin wall of secrecy that allows the U.S. to torture these people. Wink

Sam

LPLAspotter · Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting Ilovenz (Reply 7):
Keep it up identifying these aircraft. Even though it's a very small thing, it's helping us break the thin wall of secrecy that allows the U.S. to torture these people.

Absolutely. This has to stop! Welcome to my respected users list
LPLA spotter

ltbewr · Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:30 pm

I suspect someday soon, that the CIA will shift the operations of their 'black program' air flights to military or smaller commercial airports to evade and reduce suspisions and information of their operations.
The outing of CIA operations such as spotting aircraft they use creates serious problems and considerable conflicts. It affects the security that may be properly needed in their mission to protect the USA and many other countries from terrorists, but also their ability to illegally evade human rights standards. Hopefully we will find out more of the illegal CIA prisions and pressure will be put on the USA to shut them down or face international sacnctions.

PipoA380 · Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 10):
ou are making totally baseless claims about torture and human rights abuses.

Oh really? It's been making stops in GVA and the CIA has always refused to comment. Why wouldn't they deny if it was all wrong?

TUNisia · Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:52 am

I happened to buy the a World Air Routes DVD at the Boston Airline Show. It was the AF A340 DVD which features Cairo as a destination.

Anyways, when watching the DVD, upon arrival into CAI I thought I saw one of the "CIA 737s" parked onthe ramp. The DVD was filmed in 2002 so it is entirely possible, right? Can anyone tell by the REG (which I can't see) or the colours? Here's some screen shots...

Yes? No?

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 10):
You people are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists. You are making totally baseless claims about torture and human rights abuses. And quoting CNN as a source of information is NOT a good way to increase your own credibility.

Ah, now you had to make a totally benign post into a flame war. I guess you get your news from the Midland Odessa newspaper (if they have one). Hmmmmmmm, stuck in MAF? Me smelleth a texan republican.

stuckinMAF · Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 11):
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 10):
ou are making totally baseless claims about torture and human rights abuses.

Oh really? It's been making stops in GVA and the CIA has always refused to comment. Why wouldn't they deny if it was all wrong?

And what does THAT have to do with torture and human rights abuses? If Donald Trump's 727 shows up in PRG or YYT, does it mean he is participating in torture and human rights abuses? Let's just say for a moment that these planes really are operated by the CIA. So what? Does that mean that all UN planes are participating in abuses of the "Oil-for-food" program? Maybe it does if you apply the same guilt by association.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 13):
Ah, now you had to make a totally benign post into a flame war. I guess you get your news from the Midland Odessa newspaper (if they have one). Hmmmmmmm, stuck in MAF? Me smelleth a texan republican.

Just calling a spade a spade. I probably get my news from the same sources that you do, maybe I'm just not quite so gullible. And what difference does it make where my home base is? Well, if you want to put it that way, then fine. I'll accept that we have a higher-than-average rate of common sense in this area.
box

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 14):
I'll accept that we have a higher-than-average rate of common sense in this area.

Common sense from Bush country? What the *(*&(*^Q# are you talking about?

Five posts and you jump-in picking a fight. Where is Concordeboy when we need him?
LPLAspotter

MichiganMAN · Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 10):
You people are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists. You are making totally baseless claims about torture and human rights abuses

I'm sorry, I thought locking people away for over three years without due process on a base in Cuba was common knowledge...........

redflyer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 6):
Last night on CNN they were reporting

Oh, now there's a great source of news and facts! LMAO!!!

Quoting Ilovenz (Reply 7):
Even though it's a very small thing, it's helping us break the thin wall of secrecy that allows the U.S. to torture these people.

Yes, and while you're at it would you mind monitoring aircraft and activities from:

Saudi Arabia
Syria
Iran
China
North Korea

Just to name a few. In fact, you may want to focus on them more because whatever benefit your "torture" monitoring may provide, it will have a much more positive affect and benefit infinitely more people since those governments are completely closed and can imprison/torture/kill entire villages and no one would ever know.

B744F · Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 4):
to move terrorist around the world, in discreet fashion, to deliver them to other countries to be jailed.

Terrorists? Why do they hide them from international courts then? Maybe because they have no evidence?

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 14):
maybe I'm just not quite so gullible.

Maybe you just refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit your world view

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 14):
I'll accept that we have a higher-than-average rate of common sense in this area.

Interesting, so is that why Texas ranks low on the education list?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 17):
Oh, now there's a great source of news and facts! LMAO!!!

Do you care to back up your suggestion that CNN is not credible?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 17):
Just to name a few. In fact, you may want to focus on them more because whatever benefit your "torture" monitoring may provide, it will have a much more positive affect and benefit infinitely more people since those governments are completely closed and can imprison/torture/kill entire villages and no one would ever know.

You mean all those countries who are either Allies of the US, or not being forced to stop their practices by the US?

stuckinMAF · Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:54 am

Not picking a fight, just defending myself. And stop trying to stereotype people!

BTW, STILL no factual basis provided supporting the accusations of torture or human rights abuses. Just personal attacks on those things that you can find out about me, all the while still attempting to skirt the REAL issue at hand- the baseless accusations made by Ilovenz in reply number 7 and LPLA's support of it in reply number 8 of torture and human rights abuses.

Going back to the original post, if the CASA or the BBJ pictured are being used to ferry prisoners, what difference does it make? It still doesn't mean they are being tortured or having their human rights abused. I see no blood, broken bones, starving skeletons, not even a pile of naked prisoners anywhere around the aircraft in these photos.

Convince me. Show me some real facts to support your claims that these (or any other) aircraft are being used for what you say is happening!

Or stop making the claims and I'll be happy to just stay on the sidelines and watch this one go by like most of the other threads.

Is that too much to ask?

redflyer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
You mean all those countries who are either Allies of the US, or not being forced to stop their practices by the US?

If you looked closely, with the exception of Saudi Arabia, none of the countries I listed are considered "allies" of the U.S. As for Saudi Arabia, trust me: that relationship is slowly changing and no doubt because polls show most Americans don't think of them as an ally and distrust them immensely.

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:02 am

OK, I'll back off the stereotyping. It's not cool. Hey, even my uncle is from Texas - the farm boy from Palestine made it from a soldier to Chief Prosecutor for Air Piracy in the USJD.

How much proof do you need? Satellite pictures, eyewitness acounts, the military putting their own on trial for attrocities. You tell me. And how do these prisoners get to Guantanamo in the first place - by boat?

Back to the original post - does anybody have a clue why a Spanish made aircraft (brand new by the way) is operating unmarked in europe with a US registration?

LPLAspotter

[Edited 2005-11-04 21:06:04]

redflyer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 21):
Satellite pictures

I could probably GoogleEarth over to some structures in Portugal and say they look like POW holding cells.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 21):
eyewitness acounts

As far as I can tell, every eyewitness has been "anonymous".

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 21):
the military putting their own on trial for attrocities

Seems to me that should speak volumes about the integrity of our system; that we openly admit mistakes and punish those that make them.

But in all fairness, sure, I'll admit the CIA may be running clandestine camps in other countries. It may be doing a lot of things you think it shouldn't. But to throw up on a forum some pictures and quote a proven unreliable news source as proof the U.S. is the "Great Satan" doesn't really corroborate your claims. I travel a lot and often times see aircraft parked at various airports with very limited or non-existent markings. I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that it is a CIA airplane up to no good.

But then, I'm not paranoid like a lot of people are.

kaitak · Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:11 am

This is absolutely nothing to do with the CIA. Torture ... absolutely not. The window shades were merely down because the passengers wanted to play Twister and thought it might look strange to people on the ground.

You'll all have heard that Ariana is getting 737-700s and 757s, two aircraft types that the "CIA" is accused of operating. Actually, these are crew familiarisation flights and the trainee pilots, to aid recognition in case of having to leave the aircraft, wear orange boiler suits provided by Easyjet (which also operates 737-700s). Coincidence? I think not.

So, let's leave the poor CIA alone. Flight training schools are full and a government agency is only trying to help poorer countries to develop. It's also running a frequent flyer service for regular passengers. Honestly, can a govt agency not do anything without people pointing fingers. What is the world coming to?

stuckinMAF · Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 14):
I'll accept that we have a higher-than-average rate of common sense in this area.

Interesting, so is that why Texas ranks low on the education list?

http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm

Hmm, I would think out of 50 states, 24th would not be considered "low", it might even be considered "average". Besides, READING COMPREHENSION is a part of education. I said "common sense", and that's certainly not a component of education!

Hard facts. That's what's lacking in this thread.

md80fanatic · Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:15 am

Torture is wrong, no matter what act a person commits. We (as Human beings) are supposed to be above this sort of thing. There is no way to logically argue for torture....confessions obtained via torture are the least dependable source of information....as we all know that a person will say ANYTHING to stop the pain and agony.

Anyone who thinks that torture is acceptable should be extremely ashamed of themselves. Period.

Yes, keep spotting those CIA planes. It's OUR money that bought those aircraft and it is US who will keep an eye on them.

BlueSky1976 · Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
As for Saudi Arabia, trust me: that relationship is slowly changing and no doubt because polls show most Americans don't think of them as an ally and distrust them immensely.

As long as Texas Big Oil Co. will be in bed with Saudi Arabian government, they will be our allies. That relationship will not change a bit as long as Saudis have their oil supply.

MichiganMAN · Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 19):
BTW, STILL no factual basis provided supporting the accusations of torture or human rights abuses

I'll ask again. Have people not been holed up for over three years in Gitmo without due process?

TheSorcerer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 17):
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Iran
China
North Korea

These countries aren't claiming to promote democracy and human rights like the US are.

The Sorcerer

redflyer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 28):
These countries aren't claiming to promote democracy and human rights like the US are.

Oh no? What have you been smoking (or, should I say drinking since you list that in your profile as a hobby)? What have you been listening to in your high-school studies? Obviously not what your teachers are teaching. But then, I don't expect someone like you to be saavy on history or modern politics.

Do you ever stop and wonder why the most stifling dictatorship in the world is called The Democratic People's Republic of Korea?

http://www.korea-dpr.com/

I'd be willing to pay your expenses to go live there if you'd like. I think it would do you a lot of good. Just let me know.

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 22):
I could probably GoogleEarth over to some structures in Portugal and say they look like POW holding cells.

Yeah, me too, but we're not trained to spot these things like some people are.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 22):
As far as I can tell, every eyewitness has been "anonymous".

If it was me I sure would be "anonymous" and so would anybody else with common sense.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 22):
Seems to me that should speak volumes about the integrity of our system; that we openly admit mistakes and punish those that make them.

Only after one individual (not the system) reported it. Then the media exposed it.

I've asked it once and i'll ask it again - why is a Spanish made turboprop flying around europe with an N number. I don't care if it's CIA or Disneyland, and I don't care what's in it. Is it a corporate plane or a cargo plane? If its CIA then so what, i don't care at this point. We spotters here in the Azores always want to know who what where and why when we do our spotting.

Let's end the bickering:
LPLAspotter
PS: Kudo's to Joao Resendes for the above photograph

PiedmontINT · Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting MichiganMAN (Reply 27):
'll ask again. Have people not been holed up for over three years in Gitmo without due process?

First of all, due process and the writ of habeas corpus are guaranteed in the US Constitution for US CITIZENS. No where in that document does it say we absolutely have to give every person on this earth the same treatment.

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
article 1, sect. 9 clause 2

Second of all, the rules of the Geneva Convention regarding Prisoners of War apply to those of a standing army. Last time I checked, those s.o.b.'s making roadside bombs and taking potshots at our troops aren't members of any standing army of Iraq, or Afghanistan, etc...

http://www.genevaconventions.org/ -> convention texts -> Convention III, Part 1, Article 4

They are an unorganized group of rag-tag men who have this blind hatred towards the United States and the western world as a whole. They do not fall under any category listed in the Convention because they do not follow the laws regarding how a war is fought. They are not fighting for the freedom of their country against an invading force, they are fighting the ideologue that the US and Western World have that they do not agree with.

They are kept in prisons such as Guantanomo Bay because there are no provisions in the Geneva Conventions on exactly how to try these terrorists. They are not members of a standing army representing a sovereign nation so they cannot be tried in an international court martial. They are not citizens of the United States so they are not going to be tried in a federal court here. So they are held legally by the international rules regarding prisoners of war and are in fact being treated humanely.

If you need an example of inhumane treatment of POW's, go ask your friends in North Korea, China, and Vietnam. What was just "oh so horrible" that happend to a few Iraqi prisoners at Abu Gharib pales in comparison to what many of thousands of men suffered at the hands of those countries.

[Edited 2005-11-04 23:29:27]

Byrdluvs747 · Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 10):
You people are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists. You are making totally baseless claims about torture and human rights abuses.

Whatever. Watch Frontline and then tell me torture doesn't happen.

redflyer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 30):
If it was me I sure would be "anonymous" and so would anybody else with common sense.

Yep, just as I suspected, you're paranoid.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 30):
Then the media exposed it.

Yes, the American media. Which we consider integral to the proper functioning of a free and democratic society. Hence, the reason “Free Speech” and "Freedom of the Press" are embedded in our Bill Of Rights. Just goes to show, we are quite the open society.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 30):
I don't care if it's CIA

Then why did you title this thread the way you did?

And I noticed this quote your original post:

Quoting LPLAspotter (Thread starter):
I have it from a reliable source

Sounds like a familiar phrase. You don't work for CNN, do you?

[Edited 2005-11-05 00:01:52]

PHXinterrupted · Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 8):
Quoting Ilovenz (Reply 7):
Keep it up identifying these aircraft. Even though it's a very small thing, it's helping us break the thin wall of secrecy that allows the U.S. to torture these people.

Absolutely. This has to stop! Welcome to my respected users list
LPLA spotter

Ignorance is bliss, but hey, if you think this happens, perhaps 'mighty' Portugal can put a stop to it.

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 33):
Then why did you title this thread the way you did?

You're right I did, but I didn't realize what a can of worms I'd be opening up because of some little turboprop. I'll just have to remember in the future to be careful so I don't attract red blooded "god bless" america types like you into a thread that went great until you and others had to ruin it.

LPLAspotter

redflyer · Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 35):
so I don't attract red blooded "god bless" america types like you

If you only knew me, you would not make a statement like that about me.
But if that were an accurate moniker for me, what's the problem? Are you not patriotic and proud of your native country? I hope you are, as should be anyone who lives in a free society with a rich heritage.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 35):
into a thread that went great until you and others had to ruin it.

I don't know what universe you live in, Buddy, but from my perspective the thread was ruined by those of your ilk who hijacked what little vestiges of aviation this thread had to begin with and turned it into a political forum. You even added one of your lackeys to your RU list for "ruining it". Myself and others are just following suit.

FCYTravis · Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 31):
They are kept in prisons such as Guantanomo Bay because there are no provisions in the Geneva Conventions on exactly how to try these terrorists.

Wait a second. These people aren't terrorists. You have no right to smear them as terrorists. These people have not been charged with any crime, much less convicted.

Or are you just completely going to ignore the presumption of innocence, because of course our government never makes mistakes and everyone who is arrested must be automatically guilty of being a "terrorist" because our government says so?

Government uber alles. Do not question your leaders. They know what is best for you.

Scary. I hope someday you are arrested... because then I'll know you're automatically guilty of whatever it is you are arrested for. The government wouldn't arrest innocent people, would they?

stuckinMAF · Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 35):
a thread that went great until you and others had to ruin it.

It's not ruined, really. It has been a very productive thread and I have gained a lot of respect for those who have agreed with my views, and even those who have not!

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 30):
PS: Kudo's to Joao Resendes for the above photograph

Agreed! See there? We CAN agree on something! highfive

TWA902fly · Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 22):
Seems to me that should speak volumes about the integrity of our system; that we openly admit mistakes and punish those that make them.

While i do agree with you that the US government overall is not a bad entity out to torture people, dont be that naive. If they found out something like this was going on, and wanted to save face, they'd do just that, pick a good scapegoat, show that they were punished, and make the world think that they really punish people who commit wrongs. I however think there is much more going on than the public (in america, europe, anywhere), will ever know about.

'902

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 34):
Ignorance is bliss, but hey, if you think this happens, perhaps 'mighty' Portugal can put a stop to it.

What does Portugal have to do with this? As StuckinMAF taught me, don't stereotype me because of where I live. Some people have Antartica flags by their name. True, I live in Portugal, but I am not Portuguese. Maybe a genius like you can determine what I am by the expressions I use, but I doubt it.

deltagator · Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 26):
As long as Texas Big Oil Co. will be in bed with Saudi Arabian government, they will be our allies. That relationship will not change a bit as long as Saudis have their oil supply.

Foreign Diplomacy 101 here guys...The U.S. doesn't have allies. We have interests. We are interested in the oil but also in doing whatever we can with them (or without where needed) to hopefully get rid of terrorism (a tall task I know but still something to fight for.)

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 25):
Torture is wrong, no matter what act a person commits. We (as Human beings) are supposed to be above this sort of thing. There is no way to logically argue for torture....confessions obtained via torture are the least dependable source of information....as we all know that a person will say ANYTHING to stop the pain and agony.

While I agree with you somewhat but I also see the beheadings and crap these loons have been doing to people over there. Why must the U.S. always be the one who is held to a higher standard? I say fight fire with fire. We aren't perfect and yes, we f*@k up now and then but some of the things the media freaks out over (Abu Graib comes to mind) were no worse than a fraternity initiation in college. If we have to pull the toenails out of one terrorist to save the lives of Americans then so be it.

Quoting MichiganMAN (Reply 27):
I'll ask again. Have people not been holed up for over three years in Gitmo without due process?

Yes they have but they are not U.S. citizens and don't follow Geneva Conventions. Why should we afford these jackasses the "Rules of War" when they don't follow them themselves?

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 31):
First of all, due process and the writ of habeas corpus are guaranteed in the US Constitution for US CITIZENS.

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 31):
Second of all, the rules of the Geneva Convention regarding Prisoners of War apply to those of a standing army. Last time I checked, those s.o.b.'s making roadside bombs and taking potshots at our troops aren't members of any standing army of Iraq, or Afghanistan, etc...

Amen brother! I think you and I missed our calling as a Constitutional Law lawyer.

RedAirForce · Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:48 am

How the French wished thay had AC like this; but no, Paris burns from the Jihad. To all those who have a problem with these AC, rot....the US bears the brunt of the jihad, not Poortugal or some other close to thirdworld country.There is NO evidence that anyone has been tortured, but I hope they have been. Its real war spoiled Europeans, its here everyday.

PlanesNTrains · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 15):
Common sense from Bush country? What the *(*&(*^Q# are you talking about?

Five posts and you jump-in picking a fight. Where is Concordeboy when we need him?
LPLAspotter

The thing is, LPLA, this is an aviation forum, not a political one. If you want to talk about CIA aircraft, great, but when it starts branching off into torture, Bush, etc, don't be surprised if some people don't want to hear it, and don't be surprised if you tick a few people off.

If you're looking for someone to agree with your political views, I'm sure you'll find them here in spades. The problem is, that's not what this forum is for. Some of us paid the bucks to have a place to "get away" from the day to day political crap - if we want it, there are plenty of blogs to go to.

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
Maybe you just refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit your world view

Cuts both ways.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 36):
I don't know what universe you live in, Buddy, but from my perspective the thread was ruined by those of your ilk who hijacked what little vestiges of aviation this thread had to begin with and turned it into a political forum. You even added one of your lackeys to your RU list for "ruining it". Myself and others are just following suit.

Exactly. It doesn't matter if you agree with the viewpoint, the bottom line is this isn't the place to hash it out. I visit a lot of forums that have really degraded in quality due to the political debates - to the point of being shouted out by the jerks who are looking for any outlet to voice their viewpoint.

I hope this forum doesn't go there.

-Dave

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:09 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
I hope this forum doesn't go there.

Has a long time ago.

This thread - already there.

Original Post:
Does anyone know more about the following aircraft?

I have it from a reliable source that the Danish Media is reporting that it is actually a CIA plane used to ferry prisoners. Maybe true, maybe not, but strange to see a CASA with an N number operating in Europe no?

LPLAspotter
PS: Please lets not start a flame war

malaysia · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:19 am

I think this was CIA too?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © K.L.Yim

"1972; Executive Committee and Officer of the Pacific Corporation; Air America; Inc. Air Asia Co. Inc.; Civil Air Transport Co. Inc.; Air America Limited and Thai Pacific Services Co. Ltd."

SATL382G · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:24 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 44):
have it from a reliable source that the Danish Media is reporting that it is actually a CIA plane used to ferry prisoners. Maybe true, maybe not, but strange to see a CASA with an N number operating in Europe no?

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 44):
PS: Please lets not start a flame war

This speculation of yours was the first shot in the flame war. If you don't want a flame war then don't fire the first shot!!

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:37 am

Oh well, at least my friend Joao Resendes (the photographer of the above aircraft) is thrilled - he's never gotten so many hits on one of his photos ever! Way to go Joao!

LPLAspotter

[Edited 2005-11-05 02:48:03]

DarthRandall · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 17):
Oh, now there's a great source of news and facts! LMAO!!!

Damn those pinko tree-huggers at Time-Warner!

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 21):
Back to the original post - does anybody have a clue why a Spanish made aircraft (brand new by the way) is operating unmarked in europe with a US registration?

A more benign possibility could be that they are transporting VIPs, and another possibility could be that they're doing electronic eavesdropping. Either would be entirely possible.

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 28):
These countries aren't claiming to promote democracy and human rights like the US are.

Using different definitions of "democracy" and "human rights", yes they are. Ours just happens to be the closest to Webster (discounting the present andministration, that is).

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
I'd be willing to pay your expenses to go live there if you'd like. I think it would do you a lot of good. Just let me know.

I'll take an appartment in Hong Kong if you're still offering. I would be curious to experience how it stacks up to low-income housing in South Seattle.

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 30):
If it was me I sure would be "anonymous" and so would anybody else with common sense.

Man, you wouldn't even catch me talking to anyone about those guys, on or off the record.

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 31):
Second of all, the rules of the Geneva Convention regarding Prisoners of War apply to those of a standing army. Last time I checked, those s.o.b.'s making roadside bombs and taking potshots at our troops aren't members of any standing army of Iraq, or Afghanistan, etc...

If a definition of what members of the Iraqi resistence is what we need, I think the closest term would be "guerillas." Booby-traps, hit-and-run tactics, and assination are common aspects of guerilla warfare. The fact that the individuals and units involved do not belong to a standing army is not antithetical. Guerilla forces often do not have the support of a sitting government. Take for example the militia units in the American revolution, many of whom never pledged to either Washington or Cornwallis (or Gage for that matter).

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 31):
They are an unorganized group of rag-tag men who have this blind hatred towards the United States and the western world as a whole. They do not fall under any category listed in the Convention because they do not follow the laws regarding how a war is fought. They are not fighting for the freedom of their country against an invading force, they are fighting the ideologue that the US and Western World have that they do not agree with.

Perhaps "unorganized," but certainly not "disorganized." Disorganized men do not take three years to subdue. Thirty-five years ago we failed to recognized the threat presented by a determined group of guerillas. Do not so easily dismiss these people.

As for the laws regarding how a war is fought, when we cease to follow them do we not sink to the same moral ground as the people we are fighting? We're supposed to be the good guys.

LPLAspotter · Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:52 am

Quoting DarthRandall (Reply 48):
A more benign possibility could be that they are transporting VIPs, and another possibility could be that they're doing electronic eavesdropping. Either would be entirely possible.

Now that's the type of post I like - Possible logical scenarios for my original question.

The eavesdropping sounds interesting, but I would think that there would be alot of external equipment visible (antennas, etc.). If I remember correctly, wasn't it a DASH-7 that was used outside Washington to use its eavesdropping capabilities to catch that sniper that was terrorizing the area?

LPLAspotter

PlanesNTrains · Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 44):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 43):
I hope this forum doesn't go there

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 44):
Has a long time ago.

Well, in this thread, this was the 2nd reply:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 2):
One of the "torture express" A/C (as they're referred to) was supposedly seen in Prague earlier this year.

Then came reply number 7:

Quoting Ilovenz (Reply 7):
Keep it up identifying these aircraft. Even though it's a very small thing, it's helping us break the thin wall of secrecy that allows the U.S. to torture these people.

Followed by You in number 8:

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 8):
Absolutely. This has to stop! Welcome to my respected users list
LPLA spotter

Then number 9:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
but also their ability to illegally evade human rights standards. Hopefully we will find out more of the illegal CIA prisions and pressure will be put on the USA to shut them down or face international sacnctions.

At this point, yes, the thread was pretty much off-topic. Then in number 10, someone had a different viewpoint:

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 10):
You people are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists.

So you've got several backslapping replies with one political viewpoint, then as soon as someone else feels differently, you decide this:

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 13):
Ah, now you had to make a totally benign post into a flame war.

The point is it wasn't benign to people who either disagree with you or who don't want that crap in an aviation forum.

If this forum has "gone there", then maybe you would be so kind as to "take it elsewhere" in the future.

-Dave

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