ME AVN FAN
Topic Author
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Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:02 am

On the WEBsite of the BBC it is reported :
-
Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious order, against the riots.

"It is strictly forbidden for any Muslim... to take part in any action that strikes blindly at private or public property or that could threaten the lives of others," the fatwa by the Union of Islamic Organisations in France said.
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
"It is strictly forbidden for any Muslim... to take part in any action that strikes blindly at private or public property or that could threaten the lives of others," the fatwa by the Union of Islamic Organisations in France said.

And where was this statement on September 11, 2001? I'm by no means anti-muslim, but it's a little strange that they condemn those who burn cars in France, but stay quiet when 3000 people die in New York. we was our deserved, fatwa????

On the other hand, perhaps this is France's fault by not hammering down on immigration. When you have too many mouths to feed and not enough bread, perhaps this is what happens. I'm in total favor of illegal AND legal immigration control. But a 50% unemployment rate among immigrant young adults, isn't exactly the fault of France either. Immigration legal and illegal is a two way street or a double edged sword.....take your pick.

UAL

[Edited 2005-11-07 19:19:06]
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aloges
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
we was our deserved, fatwa????

Just google for " "9/11" fatwa ". One of the results (the first one, actually) is this: http://archive.muslimuzbekistan.com/...news/2001/09/ennews18092001_1.html
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious order, against the riots.

Yeah, only took them what, 2 weeks? After hundreds of vehicles burned, people injured, etc, and just now they're condemning these riots?

Good for them.  Yeah sure





-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
And where was this statement on September 11, 2001?

Where do you get off suggesting that these Muslim leaders supported September 11???
Next flight.... who knows.
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:21 am

Aloges, that was nothing but a political statement, especially toward the end.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 4):
Where do you get off suggesting that these Muslim leaders supported September 11???

Where do you get off twisting my words around?

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:25 am

Umm, in what sense? If you're not suggesting that these leaders supported September 11th, then what on earth are you suggesting?
Next flight.... who knows.
 
aloges
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In Fran

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 5):
Aloges, that was nothing but a political statement, especially toward the end.

So what else is the Fatwa against the violence in France?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 3):
Yeah, only took them what, 2 weeks?

You know, they probably had to wait for their bi-weekly audience at Allah's before they could proceed...  duck   flamed 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 4):
Where do you get off suggesting that these Muslim leaders supported September 11???

He never said anything like that, Jean.

We saw isolated cases of Muslim outrage over 9/11, that's a fact. However, did we ever get any massive, wide condemnation from Muslims (as a whole) after 9/11? Nope.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Logan22L
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
On the WEBsite of the BBC it is reported :

Link, please. I've searched http://www.bbc.co.uk/ and found nothing.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
aloges
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
However, did we ever get any massive, wide condemnation from Muslims (as a whole) after 9/11?

Sorry, but do you really expect billions of people of what-do-I-know-how-many confessions to unite, vote for a spokesman and have him say "We condemn the attacks?" That's simply impossible and you know it.

By the way, I think some 20% percent of the US population (wild guess here) would cheer if Mecca was bombed during the Hajj, so please, please get off your high horse. To me, you sound like nothing Muslims could have done after 9/11 could please you.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
Sorry, but do you really expect billions of people of what-do-I-know-how-many confessions to unite, vote for a spokesman and have him say "We condemn the attacks?" That's simply impossible and you know it.

I don't expect anything out of them. It is like it is.

Another thing, what you said might not be possible, and I never suggested it in the first place. However, what WAS possible, was for them to express more outrage over 9/11 than they did.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
By the way, I think some 20% percent of the US population (wild guess here) would cheer if Mecca was bombed during the Hajj, so please, please get off your high horse.

Doubtful. Most Americans would never want to harm innocent people. I'm not on a high horse -- it's a well known fact that the Muslims have never been quick to condemn those who committ crimes in the name of their ethnicity and religion.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
To me, you sound like nothing Muslims could have done after 9/11 could please you.

Well, I'm no nazi-conservative-republican apologist, more of a "liberal-hang your wang out-and sing khum by yah" sort of person, but yeah, I haven't been very impressed with muslim AUTHORITY figures since 9/11, and pre 9/11.

UAL
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9VSPO
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:41 am

I just heard a bus had been set alight in Tolouse!
 
aloges
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 13):
I haven't been very impressed with muslim AUTHORITY figures since 9/11, and pre 9/11.

I'm sure most Iranians, Iraqis, Syrians and so on haven't been either. You Americans really have that picture of some Palestinian crowd cheering about the 9/11 attacks burnt in your mind, don't you? Sure it was terrible, but it was a vast minority.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 15):
I'm sure most Iranians, Iraqis, Syrians and so on haven't been either. You Americans really have that picture of some Palestinian crowd cheering about the 9/11 attacks burnt in your mind, don't you?

Oh God......no, I don't. However, I think there should have been some greater sense of sympathy shown by those who are leaders in the Muslim world. I say leaders, because in a sense, they are representing their people, and the ideals of that people. However, I am quite aware that political figures do not always depict the people. (Ahem, Bush, cough...). But when you are continents away from those people, you have to rely on their leaders to spread the message of the people, and after 9/11, a message of sympathy and condemnation of the terror attacks wasn't really what I call an effort well done.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
jaysit
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
However, did we ever get any massive, wide condemnation from Muslims (as a whole) after 9/11? Nope.

What does that even mean?

Why should Muslims (as a whole) who had nothing to do with 9/11 apologize as a group for the acts of religious fundamentalists?

And what makes you think that the whole universe needs to stop in its tracks and obsess over 9/11? Most countries have their own headaches, and as Walter Cronkite once said, all news is local. Yes, 9/11 was a historical atrocity, but lets not expect everyone on God's green earth to milk it to death like we do in this country.

Also, given that it took the Vatican over 50 years to apologize for the Church's complicity in the anti-semitism and pogroms in Nazi Germany, it appears that the hairy maniacal Mullahs are far more timely in their actions.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 12):
I'm not on a high horse -- it's a well known fact that the Muslims have never been quick to condemn those who committ crimes in the name of their ethnicity and religion.

A well known assumption, I'd say, based on the rather absurd reporting of the mainstream press that focuses primarily on crackpot extremist Islamic voices who seem to scream the loudest.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
Why should Muslims (as a whole) who had nothing to do with 9/11 apologize as a group for the acts of religious fundamentalists?

It doesn't matter if they had nothing to do with it -- those who did acted in the name of their religion, and therefore, they should've condemned it.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
And what makes you think that the whole universe needs to stop in its tracks and obsess over 9/11?

Never suggested it.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
A well known assumption, I'd say, based on the rather absurd reporting of the mainstream press that focuses primarily on crackpot extremist Islamic voices who seem to scream the loudest.

Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I still think it's a historical fact that they've never ever been quick to condemn those who commit crimes in their name.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
gkirk
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:06 am

I thought only JGPH1A could issue fatwahs?  duck 
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
but stay quiet when 3000 people die in New York

the 11Sep01 attacks were clearly condemned by the Sheikh-al-Islam (elAzhar in Cairo) who is the most high-ranking Muslim ceric in the world, as well as by the IIC (International Islamic Conference) which is the highest body of Islam, by numerous national Imams, even including Federal UAE Imam el-Shehhi whose 2nd son Marwan was "captain" on board of the 2nd WTC aircraft. There were demonstrations in favour of the USA in Casablanca and other places. Those things were widely reported in the Arab media and the European media, but for unknown reasons NOT in US-American media (except CNN)

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 3):
only took them what, 2 weeks?


the "normal" speed by regional standards !

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 10):
Link, please

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4414684.stm >> 2nd paragraph
 
aloges
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In Fran

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 19):
I thought only JGPH1A could issue fatwahs?

You mean, against yourself?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 18):
those who did acted in the name of their religion

sorry, they did NOT ! no, they did NOT act in the name of their religion. They PROCLAIMED to do so, that is all .
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
There were demonstrations in favour of the USA in Casablanca and other places. Those things were widely reported in the Arab media and the European media, but for unknown reasons NOT in US-American media (except CNN)

Well, lets blame it on the media then, except for CNN.
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jaysit
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 18):
It doesn't matter if they had nothing to do with it -- those who did acted in the name of their religion, and therefore, they should've condemned it.

Everyone except for a few loud religious fanatics condemned it. How many Muslims do you know, or have talked to to make the crass assumption that Joe Blow Muslim didn't condemn it? Do you speak or read Urdu, Pashtun, Bengali, Tagalog, Farsi, Arabic to have read the press from Muslim majority nations to come up with your testy conclusion that Muslims didn't condemn it?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 18):
Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I still think it's a historical fact that they've never ever been quick to condemn those who commit crimes in their name.

A "historical fact?" Based on what historical period? Given that most wars throughout history have been fought on religious or ethnic grounds, I suspect that most religions and social groups are guilty.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
FOMEA
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
And where was this statement on September 11, 2001? I'm by no means anti-muslim, but it's a little strange that they condemn those who burn cars in France, but stay quiet when 3000 people die in New York. we was our deserved, fatwa????

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...+Condemning+September+11th&spell=1

I think there are over 10 pages of condemning..if that is not enough..feel free to let me know.

Regards
F-OMEA
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
B744F
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
but stay quiet when 3000 people die in New York. we was our deserved, fatwa????

Nobody stayed quiet, you just want to believe they were all cheering and typically, you form your conclusions before getting actual facts to back them up
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
How many Muslims do you know, or have talked to to make the crass assumption that Joe Blow Muslim didn't condemn it?



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
Everyone except for a few loud religious fanatics condemned it.

Such hypocrisy, Jaysit. How do you know that everybody, including Joe Blow Muslim, actually condemned it? How many Muslims do you know?

I happen to know quite a few that work at the same company as I do, and they are all nice people, and they all were just as angry about the attacks as I was. And wouldn't you know it, they were actually pissed off at their own people across the pond for not publically condemning 9/11 like they should have.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
A "historical fact?" Based on what historical period?

How about, the entire time period of Muslim existence itself?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
Given that most wars

I'm not talking about wars, I'm talking about terrorist attacks and other atrocities that are committed by fanatics. I still stand by my point, I think that the Muslims have always been slow to condemn the atrocities that have been committed by Muslim fanatics.





-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:40 am

Okay, I highjacked this debate with a he o, now I think we need to turn back to the issue at hand.

What exactly will a fatwa do to French muslims citizens or illegal immigrants. Obviously nothing. So what do they do now?



I can't help but as the question...is it about being poor, or is it about being Muslim AND poor?

Secondly, I often wonder why there is so much immigration these days into western countries. Sure, even up until the early 1900's, everyone had a niche to fill as immigrants into the US, but now all the goods are bought, the land is purchased, and the corporations dominate. Our labor system is continually screwed because of outsourcing, and the gap between the wealthy 1% and the poor is widening with the disappearance of the middle-class. I think perhaps people of other nations view western society as the land of opportunities, but unfortunately, we don't even have enough opportunities for our own citizens.

To me, immigrants have outdated expectations, by about 60yrs. Also, when immigrants migrate to a new country, many of them settle for the "sub-culture ghettos." Instead of trying to forge bonds with the citizens of the country, they continue to break themselves off into areas of hispanics, muslims, or what have you, and therefore, society sees these large entities of certain ethnicity as enroaching on their territory.

For instance, Mexicans enter the US only to make Mexican, buy Mexican, sell Mexican, and live Mexican. I don't get it, are they running out of room in Mexico?

Before I get flamed, disclaimer: I know that my theories do not apply to all, but you have to face the issue, there is a definite global problem with immigration, no matter what sides of the border you are on.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 26):
Nobody stayed quiet, you just want to believe they were all cheering and typically, you form your conclusions before getting actual facts to back them up

Typically? EXCUSE ME? First of all, you can find facts to back up ANY argument, and secondly, IN MY OPINION, I did not think the Muslim world's reaction was sufficient.

Sure, I see both sides, I'm not an idiot, but they needed to do a real big public relations campaign after that one, and I believed they failed. I have just as many sources to quote me on my argument as you do. Problem is, in our own minds, we turn what is fact into fiction and what is fiction into fact. Thus, we most likely will not agree.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Thread starter):
Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious order, against the riots.

That's nice, but can it make any difference?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 3):
Yeah, only took them what, 2 weeks?

Better late than never.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 13):
I haven't been very impressed with muslim AUTHORITY figures since 9/11, and pre 9/11.

As far as I remember, 9/11 was condemned in muslim world (if there is some kind of entity that could be named "muslim world". For example, I remember statements from Arab League right now, or vigils in Tehran that took place maybe not even a day after 9/11.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
Why should Muslims (as a whole) who had nothing to do with 9/11 apologize as a group for the acts of religious fundamentalists?

Hmm, if I were American, I would not expect apology but human understanding and condolense in those horrible days after 9/11. Also, we are mentioning 3000 victims of those horrible attacks, but they were not 3000 Americans. How many Arabs or Muslims were killed in WTC? There were so many nationalities and even four people from Belgrade that were killed that day.

The reason why I don't see why so much attention is paid on "fatwa" is that it is very difficult to determine who is the highest authority in ithe Muslim world among clerics. It is not like Catholicism with a Pope, or Anglicanism or Eastern Orthodoxy. In a way, Islam is very democratic when clerical hirarchy is concerned. So, among many who are claiming their right to issue fatwa, the very same "order" does not have the same value. Am I right?

Also, when burning and looting takes place, there is no religious authority strong enough to stop it. You need police forces. Sad, but true. Once the riots are over, clerics and professionals of all kinds should sit down and finally face the problem and determine what was the fault of those immigrant communities and what are the faults of French society and state.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 10):

Why don't yo try
www.bbcworld.com
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 29):
I did not think the Muslim world's reaction was sufficient.

I agree with you on this one UAL747.


Oh, and don't bother trying to argue with B744F.

Just show him this




and all is well.  Smile


B744F - chirp chirp chirp.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:11 am

AnyWay, back to the original argument, and my questions in reply 28,

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
What exactly will a fatwa do to French muslims citizens or illegal immigrants. Obviously nothing. So what do they do now?



I can't help but as the question...is it about being poor, or is it about being Muslim AND poor?

Secondly, I often wonder why there is so much immigration these days into western countries. Sure, even up until the early 1900's, everyone had a niche to fill as immigrants into the US, but now all the goods are bought, the land is purchased, and the corporations dominate. Our labor system is continually screwed because of outsourcing, and the gap between the wealthy 1% and the poor is widening with the disappearance of the middle-class. I think perhaps people of other nations view western society as the land of opportunities, but unfortunately, we don't even have enough opportunities for our own citizens.

To me, immigrants have outdated expectations, by about 60yrs. Also, when immigrants migrate to a new country, many of them settle for the "sub-culture ghettos." Instead of trying to forge bonds with the citizens of the country, they continue to break themselves off into areas of hispanics, muslims, or what have you, and therefore, society sees these large entities of certain ethnicity as enroaching on their territory.

For instance, Mexicans enter the US only to make Mexican, buy Mexican, sell Mexican, and live Mexican. I don't get it, are they running out of room in Mexico?

Before I get flamed, disclaimer: I know that my theories do not apply to all, but you have to face the issue, there is a definite global problem with immigration, no matter what sides of the border you are on.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 31):
Oh, and don't bother trying to argue with B744F.

OK, can somebody explain what using words "cricket and chirp" really mean. I admit that my knowledge of English is limited and I need your help, just to know what it is all about.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
B744F
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 29):
Typically? EXCUSE ME? First of all, you can find facts to back up ANY argument, and secondly, IN MY OPINION, I did not think the Muslim world's reaction was sufficient.

What a change of tune compared to this:

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
However, did we ever get any massive, wide condemnation from Muslims (as a whole) after 9/11? Nope.

and this:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
but stay quiet when 3000 people die in New York



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 31):
Oh, and don't bother trying to argue with B744F.

Exactly, you've learned arguing with me only makes you look like a complete fool
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
Exactly, you've learned arguing with me only makes you look like a complete fool

And it's comments like that that make you look more like a person that has to turn to deragatory comments when you feel your argument is threatened.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
jaysit
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
To me, immigrants have outdated expectations, by about 60yrs. Also, when immigrants migrate to a new country, many of them settle for the "sub-culture ghettos."

This varies with immigrant groups, but its also been the practice of all immigrant groups into the United States. Southern European migrants seldom learned English. Only the first and second generation members of those groups assimilated.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
I think perhaps people of other nations view western society as the land of opportunities, but unfortunately, we don't even have enough opportunities for our own citizens.

We have plenty of opportunities if you work hard, are smart, and fight for what you believe is due to you.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 29):
Sure, I see both sides, I'm not an idiot, but they needed to do a real big public relations campaign after that one, and I believed they failed.

Run by whom? As Aleksandar points out, Muslim culture and religion is not dominated by one central authority. Muslims in, say, India, have nothing in common with Muslims in Mali or Serbia. This is unlike Catholicism where the Pope can cluck disapprovingly of what some of his flock are up to.

Besides, other cultures don't go out and have some big ol' pop rally in a giant stadium where people wear cheezy colored wrist bands for the cause of the day and buy T-shirts that say "I'm a Muslim against Terrorism." People in the US have become so used to phony, media-orchestrated events involving celebrities and other BS that they've become dulled to real emotions, which are usually expressed more privately.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
ur labor system is continually screwed because of outsourcing, and the gap between the wealthy 1% and the poor is widening with the disappearance of the middle-class.

Where did you come up with that from? Our middle class has grown even during the supposedly economic downturn of the early GWB years. And outsourcing has created a large viable overseas middle class that demands US goods. Boeing wouldn't be chalking up nearly 400 aircraft orders to India were it not for globalization of the economy.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 27):
And wouldn't you know it, they were actually pissed off at their own people across the pond for not publically condemning 9/11 like they should have.

The pond?
Rulers of all Islamic countries, even crackpot regimes like Iran condemned the 9/11 attacks. What's not to condemn? What did you want? International breast beating and wailing in the hallowed halls of the UN? For Jordan, Pakistan and Malaysia to declare a national month of mourning? Lets not get carried away by our own grief here. Those closer to a tragedy will always grieve more than those several degrees of separation away.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 27):
I'm not talking about wars, I'm talking about terrorist attacks and other atrocities that are committed by fanatics

Many a war is just that - attacks and atrocities committed by fanatics. when Serbians massacred Croats and Bosnian Muslims was it a war or were they acts of savage state-sponsored terrorism committed by fanatics?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 35):
And it's comments like that that make you look more like a person that has to turn to deragatory comments when you feel your argument is threatened.

HAHAHAHAHAH

Good try. I just posted 3 different quotes all saying different things, then you have the nerve to claim I feel my argument is threatened?

Or should I say chirp chirp and that would be an OK response?
 
NWA742
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
you've learned arguing with me only makes you look like a complete fool

Exactly. I'd consider myself a fool if I tried to argue sense into a 9/11 conspiracy believing cricket boy like you again.




Chirp chirp




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36):
We have plenty of opportunities if you work hard, are smart, and fight for what you believe is due to you.

Wrong....just head to Houston, Dallas, SoCal, there are plenty of people who work hard, and know what is right for them, but the institution and cultural climate they live in does not allow for theem to make many advances and most end up doing the labor that other citizens don't want to do. I've seen it.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36):
Run by whom? As Aleksandar points out, Muslim culture and religion is not dominated by one central authority. Muslims in, say, India, have nothing in common with Muslims in Mali or Serbia. This is unlike Catholicism where the Pope can cluck disapprovingly of what some of his flock are up to

The pope has very little scope of influence in the states. However, Christianity, has a face here in the US, it's just not the Pope's face, and in fact, Christianity in the US often times comes together to push a political agenda, as I assume that Islam leaders do as well. I will say this in response, your average American protestant has nothing in common with a Spanish Catholic. Christianity is a very different animal here in the US, and dare I say, Canada?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36):
Where did you come up with that from? Our middle class has grown even during the supposedly economic downturn of the early GWB years. And outsourcing has created a large viable overseas middle class that demands US goods. Boeing wouldn't be chalking up nearly 400 aircraft orders to India were it not for globalization of the economy.

No again, http://www.google.com/search?client=...ing+middle+class&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

You see, by outsourcing labor, we have taken away the middle class jobs and put them in India, China, and other industrial nations. The US is de-industrializing, and becoming an information state, rather than an industrial one. Outsourcing labor is two fold, but the blame really does rest on our own middle class. The middle class is by far the largest spenders in the US economy, given that their class is by far, the largest. However, they demand more and more goods, with cheaper prices. So corporations search out new areas of labor that can produce goods more cheaply. These jobs go to other countries, giving those individuals opportunities to make more money than they ever have before, hence, the rising middle classes in other "3rd-world" countries. Now, with the middle class consuming so much, and most of them don't own anything outright, or have much equity in their 5000 sq ft homes, their debt is increasing, and many are filing for bankruptcy.

More debt + more consumption = less money + more poverty
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 39):
These jobs go to other countries, giving those individuals opportunities to make more money than they ever have before, hence, the rising middle classes in other "3rd-world" countries.

Yes.

Who buy American made Boeing airplanes, ipods, Dell laptops, Ford cars just to name a few. All these companies hire Americans in the United States, and will continue to hire Americans in the US as demand for such goods rise.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 39):
Wrong....just head to Houston, Dallas, SoCal, there are plenty of people who work hard, and know what is right for them, but the institution and cultural climate they live in does not allow for theem to make many advances and most end up doing the labor that other citizens don't want to do. I've seen it.

Whats wrong with manual or menial labor if it puts food on the table? After all someone's got to do it, right? Yes, these jobs are not glamorous or won't get you a mortgage and a car payment overnight, but many immigrants are willing to work at these jobs because they still provide a better lifestyle than what they had back home.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B744F
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 38):
Exactly. I'd consider myself a fool if I tried to argue sense into a 9/11 conspiracy believing cricket boy like you again.

You don't speak any sort of sense, every argument you've made I easily have smashed to the ground. That is why you are so bitter
 
UAL747
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 40):
Who buy American made Boeing airplanes, ipods, Dell laptops, Ford cars just to name a few. All these companies hire Americans in the United States, and will continue to hire Americans in the US as demand for such goods rise.

No they won't. In corporate hierarchy, there is very little room for people on the top end. Hypothetically, if you have no labor, all you need is management for that labor. The management makes the big bucks and oversees numerous laborers. For example, in the computer/tech industry, most of the "non-glamorous" labor has been outsourced to india. What's left are a small number of managerial positions in the US. Those jobs are the average middleclass, 35,000/yr jobs. They are beneficial because a. they keep the middle class the largest class, acting as a buffer between the poor and the wealthy, and they offer job opportunities to low-income families who are "trying and fighting to make it" as you stated, so perhaps they can earn good means. No, it's not a glamorous job, but who's job is really glamorous unless you are on the upper crust of corporations.

So without those jobs, the middle-class is finding themselves in a non-recoverable situation in their debt to equity ratio, unemployment has risen (on a grand scheme of things, yeah, i know it's down a bit), and more and more middle class families are poured into poverty. Hence, the widening gap between rich and poor.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 40):
Whats wrong with manual or menial labor if it puts food on the table? After all someone's got to do it, right? Yes, these jobs are not glamorous or won't get you a mortgage and a car payment overnight, but many immigrants are willing to work at these jobs because they still provide a better lifestyle than what they had back home.

Nothing wrong with manual or menial labor; however, you have to consider that manual and menial labor doesn't give you the "American Dream." Of course the definitions of that have evolved from post WWII, but it will never be realized. No jobs, no money.

Also, you have to understand that the rich can stay richer for obvious reasons. Say you buy a modest $250,000 home. Now, your average individual will have a 30yr mortgage, whereas someone in the wealthy class will purchase the home outright, and not have to pay interest. So see, the system works against the middleclass citizen. Then again, you also have to understand that the middle class are the ones who spend the most amount of money in comparison to their net income. It's been a common trend in post-modern America. There are several factors working against the middle class here.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
flydubai
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
You don't speak any sort of sense, every argument you've made I easily have smashed to the ground. That is why you are so bitter

'Big yourself up why don't you!'
In other words you like boasting.  Yeah sure

This is clearly a one sided 'Islamic bashing' thread which involves mostly Americans. What a surprise.  Embarrassment

flydubai
 
jaysit
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 42):
Say you buy a modest $250,000 home. Now, your average individual will have a 30yr mortgage, whereas someone in the wealthy class will purchase the home outright, and not have to pay interest. So see, the system works against the middleclass citizen.

And this is news to you? Social and economic inequities have always been the hallmark of capitalist societies. Even back in 1950, the Rockefellers had it better than the middle class. Besides, with interest rates as low as they've been, you're better off paying interest than purchasing your property outright.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 42):
No they won't. In corporate hierarchy, there is very little room for people on the top end.

But that's the case with all hierarchies. Pardon the old expression, but you have to have fewer Chiefs, more Indians.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B744F
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 43):
'Big yourself up why don't you!'
In other words you like boasting.

I don't like it, I only use it when people fail to address my actual comments while still claiming I don't know what I'm talking about

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 43):
This is clearly a one sided 'Islamic bashing' thread which involves mostly Americans. What a surprise.

Have you even read this topic at all? What a surprise
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:49 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 39):
The pope has very little scope of influence in the states.

I don't agree. When the scandal with pedophilia broke, the culmination of the crisis was when John Paul II summoned all US bishops and gave them his piece of mind. So, pope has influence.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 39):
You see, by outsourcing labor, we have taken away the middle class jobs and put them in India, China, and other industrial nations.

Hey, that's the way it is. How many of you are ready to pay 15$ for plain flip-flops, or 25$ for a simple white T-shirt in supermarket. To keep prices low, you must move production lines to the places where labour is cheaper than in the US. I don't want to argue if that is fair or moral, but that's the way it is. I don't see it as some decision of "unscrupulous CEOs to move their production to Bangladesh to exploit locals", but as a reaction to popular demand. In a situation where average Western citizen wants to be paid more for his work and yet he still wants to pay less for the products he buys, some compromises have to be found.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 29):
I'm not an idiot, but they needed to do a real big public relations campaign after that one, and I believed they failed.

There is one thing that you all forget. When 9/11 happened it was not only US that was harmed. Muslims were harmed as well. First, they feared of US reaction and second they feared of reaction in general. I believe it was very hard for the majority of Muslims to see that some lunatics did what they did in the name of Islam. In such circumstances, you don't just simply condemn such action (like the 9/11 attacks), but you also try to distant yourself from it. Hypothetically, your brother (or close relative) runs into supermarket with a gun and kills dozens of innocent people. What your reaction would be? Would you stand up in front of the camera dressed in a T-shirt with "Execute him ASAP" sign and say "Yes, he is an idiot" or would you feel embarassed and try to do everything to distant yourself from it before people start pointing their finger to you as a potential threat to the society?
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
ME AVN FAN
Topic Author
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:11 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 23):
lets blame it on the media then, except for CN

or on you yourself for NOT reading the reports --- whatever
 
ME AVN FAN
Topic Author
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:27 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
What exactly will a fatwa do to French muslims citizens

the "value" of that Fatwa is that it robs potential religious zealots and extremists of their "ideological basis". It however of course does NOT calm down frustrated, embittered and bored young troublemakers in some bidonvilles

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
.is it about being poor, or is it about being Muslim AND poor?

it is about poor+bored+frustrated -- it has nothing, or almost nothing to do with religion

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 28):
often wonder why there is so much immigration these days into western countries. Sure, even up until the early 1900's

as A) the job situation in general is better than in the "Third World" and
B) there are better possibilities to do interesting things professionally and
C) there is far more "entertainment" and less boredom than in many places

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 29):
they needed to do a real big public relations campaign

had the Arabs been able to "do a real big public relations campaign" then the Israelis would NOT have been so popular in the Europe of the 60ies and would NOT be in such a favourite position in the USA. The "strategies" pursued by many Arab politicians upon 11Sep01 of course often were rather amateurish if not outright debacles.

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 30):
That's nice, but can it make any difference?

Yes it can. It of course does NOT stop trouble, but robs instigators of a kind of "argument"

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 30):
How many Arabs or Muslims were killed in WTC?

there WERE quite a number of Muslims among the victims, AND, more importantly, previous attacks of elQaeda usually did cost the lives of Muslims

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 30):
So, among many who are claiming their right to issue fatwa, the very same "order" does not have the same value. Am I right?

of course. THAT is the reason why they needed some time. The various and partially rivalling clerics had to sit together and edit a text which was acceptable to all but clear and definite at the same time. And of course only is relevant in France. A Fatwa of the Sheikh-al-Islam would theologically have a higher value but NOT in France
 
flyAUA
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RE: Muslims Try To Stop Riots And Violence In France

Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:50 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 15):
You Americans really have that picture of some Palestinian crowd cheering about the 9/11 attacks burnt in your mind, don't you? Sure it was terrible, but it was a vast minority.

That picture was actually found to be crowds of people cheering after the gulf war was over the first time round. There was nobody cheering after 9/11, but that's what the media in the US wants their people to believe so they just decide to lie to them and create hatred. Way to go!!!
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!

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