Bofredrik
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Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:39 am

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html

"Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. IT IS TIME TO BRING THEM HOME."
 
WellHung
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:52 am

"I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
mt99
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:57 am

I dont think "bailing" is a good move. It too late.

How about asking the UN to help? Turn the country over the the International Community?
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Falcon84
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:09 am

Here's a CNN article on the story:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/murtha.iraq/index.html

I think what is just reprehinsible is the White House-THE WHITE HOUSE, stooping the the level of bringing up Michael Moore's name in their defense against a well-respected Democratic Congressman, who is seen as one of the more conservative memebers of the Democratic party on issues of foreign policy. Is the WH that desperate these days?

I think it also interesting the Sen Kerry disagrees-as I do-with Murtha's call for immediate withdrawl from Iraq. We can't do it. We simply that. We owe it to the 2000 Americans who have died there, and we owe it to the Iraqi people.

Withdrawing now will lead to civil war.

Dude has guts to say this publically,and while I disagree with him, I respect his view. I have less respect for the WH's childish response.
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dan-air
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Withdrawing now will lead to civil war.

Wake up Falcon, the civil war is already in progress. Our guys are nothing but a shield to stop the Shiites blasting the Sunnis - they've been doing that forever and they will continue to do it forever. When we leave the current fighting will intensify until the mullahs in Iran take over. Our continued presence is just more business for the body-bag company and Walter Reed.

The Iraqis have had two years to step up to the plate and start defending themselves. That's enough. Time to get on with "democracy" or whatever they want, start pumping the oil and pay us back for removing Saddam.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 4):
The Iraqis have had two years to step up to the plate and start defending themselves. That's enough. Time to get on with "democracy" or whatever they want, start pumping the oil and pay us back for removing Saddam.

I'm almost inclined to agree . . . .

Don't anyone  faint  on me . . . .

The Iraqi's have GOT to start doing the job for themselves . . . we cannot and should not be their police force for much longer . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 4):
The Iraqis have had two years to step up to the plate and start defending themselves.

No, they haven't. The Bush Administration thought it'd be a great idea to dismantle the Iraqi military and police force, which lead to all the looting soon after the invasion part of the war ended, and has left Iraq unable to defend itself. Plus we've done an absolutely piss-poor job reconstituting both.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
The Iraqi's have GOT to start doing the job for themselves . . . we cannot and should not be their police force for much longer

Agreed. But we've screwed up that process, and because we did, it'll be at least several years, I'll bet, before we can hand the nation back over to internal security apparatus.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
satx
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Withdrawing now will lead to civil war.

Nothing can stop that now.
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mt99
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 4):
start pumping the oil and pay us back for removing Saddam

Did they askto have Saddam removed? Just wondering.
Step into my office, baby
 
dan-air
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Agreed. But we've screwed up that process, and because we did, it'll be at least several years, I'll bet, before we can hand the nation back over to internal security apparatus.

That's a nice thought, but didn't we learn recently that the numbers of trained Iraqi security forces is now less than it was a year ago? Put yourself in the shoes of a potential an Iraqi soldier: what incentive is there to get your ass shot at when there's 140,000 yanks around to do that for you?

They are in need of a little tough justice IMHO.
 
dan-air
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 8):
Did they askto have Saddam removed? Just wondering.

Nah, that was a bonus. Now where's our $300,000,000,000? Start pumping.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
Agreed. But we've screwed up that process, and because we did, it'll be at least several years, I'll bet, before we can hand the nation back over to internal security apparatus.

I'm not totally convinced . . . I think if they had no other options they would. As long as we babysit them, they won't. That's my problem. I don't see a lot of Iraqi military on the front line . . . I don't see a lot of Iraqi police patrolling the streets. Why is that? A combination of lack of enough training and lack of motivation on the Iraqi's part. As long as we're there, they have no motivation to excel.

As an aside, I did see news that the Iraqi Army now has Tanks - T72M1 imported from the Czech Republic I believe . . . they were in storage there from the end of the Cold War . . . the US refurbished them and now they are in Iraq. Interesting we didn't field them with Abrams . . .smart too. I've been up against the T72 - in combat - and it's a dog . . . but I digress . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:35 am

Well you know something is wrong when one of the more moderate democrats who has been relatively silent on the war comes out swinging. Murtha is from my home state and for the life of me I have trouble thinking of the last significant move he has made to gain such notoriety. Here is my whole viewpoint on the situation in Iraq:

Pullout from Iraq is not a matter of if, but a matter of when now. I speculate that this process will start sometime next year for several reasons. For one, this war has become immensely unpopular with the American public. Next year, being an election year, politicians are going to start bowing to the public to gain brownie points to get re-elected. After all, what is the primary focus of a politician once he or she is elected? Nine times out of ten it is re-election unless of course you are in a seat that has a term limit and you are in the last term allowable. The Republicans absolutely cannot lose either house of Congress next year, or life is going to become extremely difficult for them. What comes with majority power in Congress? The power to subpoena, and believe you me there are some documents that this current administration DOES NOT want out there. Tie that in with the fact that the Army recently reported that in order to effectively defeat an insurgency the typical rule of thumb is that there should be one soldier per 50 people in an occupied country. You know how many soldiers that translates into in the case of Iraq? Something on the level of 720,000 troops. The United States armed forces are already stretched as thin as they can go, with enlistments all but trickling in. So what is the best option? Declare victory and execute a uniform pullout, leaving enough troops to perhaps secure the borders and nothing more. It's pretty funny, because even Santorum is distancing himself from the President (I recently read that he is some 20 points behind Casey). I thought it would take a crowbar to pry his face out of Bush's ass, guess I was wrong on that one.

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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
As an aside, I did see news that the Iraqi Army now has Tanks - T72M1 imported from the Czech Republic I believe . . . they were in storage there from the end of the Cold War . . . the US refurbished them and now they are in Iraq. Interesting we didn't field them with Abrams . . .smart too. I've been up against the T72 - in combat - and it's a dog . . . but I digress . . .

Yes, they're putting some newly refurbished T-72s. Iraq contracted an American company to refurbish them after they purchased them from the Czechs.

ANCFlyer - how's the T-72 in combat? Iraq also have a few surviving T-80s, are those any better?

-UH60
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ltbewr
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:17 am

Immediate or short term withdrawal of the USA would be a horrible decision for reasons well noted by leading Republicans. Let us not forget that Iraq has the 2nd largest known reserves of oil in the world. We want to keep that flowing to the Western world and Japan rather than to China or India.
Most of us out there are not aware of this, but in Egypt right now, the Arab League is having a huge, open ended conference to deal with the 'American occupation' of Iraq and related issues as to the USA in the Middle East. Perhaps something from their conference can develop out of it, such as some kind of 'peacekeeping' force or economic investment and development in Iraq so Iraq can survive on it's own and so the USA and other western troops can get out of there. Of course, it isn't the way the USA/Bush want's it, but it might be one of the only ways to deal with the Iraqi situation.
 
solarix
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:41 am

The terrorists want us to give up.

If we leave prematurely, the terrorists will be happy since it means that they will have accomplished their goal.

We've made this mistake before and Bin Laden himself always seems to remind us of it.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
ANCFlyer - how's the T-72 in combat?

In a word - they suck at anything over 1200 meters. Their night vision was terrible - I'm not sure they had any - the range on the cannon even worse. The Auto-Loader was terribly slow . . .we could pump out three cannon rounds in the time it could pump out one. There is no turret floor - so one must chase the cannon around and around. Crew survivability was nil. Not one time did I engage a T72 and see anyone survive. And speaking of engaging - we were managing first round hits at over 5000 meters with the Abrams. Now THAT tank can shoot . . . and we could do it moving.  bigthumbsup 

Mind you I'm talking 1991 here and a different war. I'd be curious to see the mods on the T72M1. Better sights? Turret floor? No way to get rid of the auto-loader though . . . not enough room inside for a 4th crewmember.

Quoting Solarix (Reply 15):
If we leave prematurely, the terrorists will be happy since it means that they will have accomplished their goal.

You have an excellent point . . .

Let me ask this . . . when do we draw the line? When are we going to make the Iraqi's responsible for themselves? When is "too early".

I am and always was an advocate of this war, and obviously a staunch, unwavering supporter of our men and women in uniform where ever they may be, however - when do we let them turn over the responsibility for policing in Iraq to the Iraqis?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
satx
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting Solarix (Reply 15):
If we leave prematurely, the terrorists will be happy since it means that they will have accomplished their goal.

The bigger fuckup was when we started the war prematurely.
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Falcon84
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:00 pm

Quoting Solarix (Reply 15):
If we leave prematurely, the terrorists will be happy since it means that they will have accomplished their goal.

The ironic thing was is that Iraq didn't have those terrorist before we got there. They had Saddam, and now they have terrorism.

How better off are they in the last 2-plus years, really?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
They had Saddam, and now they have terrorism.

In a literal sense - the same damn thing Falcon . . . CNN, FOX, BBC, no one could report it then . . . his two sons taking whatever 'prize' off the street they wanted . . . his henchmen marching in to whatever/whereever they wanted and hauling people off . . .

No different.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
How better off are they in the last 2-plus years, really?

I won't even get started here . . . like I said in another thread, no one listens anyway . . . not even some of the more open-minded folks here.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
DaddiesSecret
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
The Iraqi's have GOT to start doing the job for themselves . . . we cannot and should not be their police force for much longer . . . .

Oh, come on! This mess is of the 'Coalitions' making! No-one forced the 'Coalition' to go to war. No-one forced the 'Coalition' to disband the Iraqi security services. Having some dreamy eyed idea of forcing western-style democracy on the Iraqis is not enough, especially when that idea goes tits up! The present mess is down to the 'Coalition' you cannot blame the Iraqis for this!

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 4):
start pumping the oil and pay us back for removing Saddam.

I think if anything the coalition should be compensating the Iraqi for the screw-up it's turned into.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
How better off are they in the last 2-plus years, really?

I won't even get started here

Why not, my friend? It's a legit quesiton. Hell, in the last 2 days alone, over 100 Iraqi's killed in attacks, and 5 more of our GI's.

Seriously, if things ARE that much better, why isn't reported-even on a GOP rah-rah channel like FOX?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Why not, my friend? It's a legit quesiton. Hell, in the last 2 days alone, over 100 Iraqi's killed in attacks, and 5 more of our GI's.

I don't dispute that, nor did I try to paint a rosey picture, it it certainly far from it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Seriously, if things ARE that much better, why isn't reported-even on a GOP rah-rah channel like FOX?

The answer is as simple as the one I gave Diamond and Concord977 yesterday . . . it doesn't sell news. It's not any more complicated than that, must to the chagrin of those here, it's just that simple.

You will not read/hear about the new schools, functioning water system, rebuilding of the electrical grid, the GI made a Shiek, on any news site. It's not blood, gore, death and destruction.

There's no complicated conspiracy as was suggested in the other thread. There's no great cover up by the news media. Nothing so grand. It simply doesn't sell.

And it's not like there haven't been some good things occuring - it's only that mainstream media doesn't report it. And no matter what, virtually no one here cares to believe it, or acknowledge it . . . much easier to continue to bash the War, the President, the Congress, the Senate . . . . there's no news in good news.

And what I'm saying is certainly not new to you my friend . . . we've spoken of this on threads in here in the past.

Here's the thread I'm referencing. Heated Iraq War Debate In The House Today (by KC135R Nov 19 2005 in Non Aviation)
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:19 pm

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 4):
start pumping the oil and pay us back for removing Saddam.



Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 8):
Did they askto have Saddam removed? Just wondering.

Nah, that was a bonus. Now where's our $300,000,000,000? Start pumping.

Sorry pal, but inasmuch as I support president Bush, it seems to me that American taxpayers will have to pay the bill this time. Iraq is a mess, so don't expect to get the money back soon.

What a pity that a good and decent president made such a huge mistake invading Iraq. It's already dooming his presidency.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 23):
Sorry pal, but inasmuch as I support president Bush,

Boy, there's a newsflash.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 23):
What a pity that a good and decent president made such a huge mistake invading Iraq.

Nothing good or decent about this guy, nor many in his administration.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Nothing good or decent about this guy,

Nothing? Are you serious? Don't let your ideology to blind you Falcon. I'd never dare to say that of Clinton, and God knows I don't like him.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:48 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 25):
Nothing? Are you serious? Don't let your ideology to blind you Falcon. I'd never dare to say that of Clinton, and God knows I don't like him.

I don't give a rip what you think about Bush. You can worship him all you want. I find absolutely nothing redeeming about the man in any way, shape or form. If you don't like it, I really don't care, with all due respect.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:33 pm

What really pisses me off is how those cry-baby senate republicans responded to Murtha's words. It borders on terrorism itself! Forcing the entire senate to vote on an immediate withdrawal was an asinine move, completely transparent. Murtha's exact words, from his CNN interview, were to recall troops as soon as practicable. And then to have that nutjob lady from Ohio get up and call him a coward was absolutely outrageous. The GOP needs to get a clue - this isn't how you run a country. This isn't even how you run a clubhouse.
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Cessnapimp
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:01 pm

Yup, you're right "We're nuts", he stated it in his speech quoted in the thread starter. A great speech IMO. This guy has his head on straight. Kerry quoted that even though he didn't agree on everything he said, how dare they treat mr. Murtha, a decorated vet, as a "coward".

Putain... another 3 years.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:31 pm

Quote:
My plan calls: 

To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces. 



Quote:
Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily.  IT IS TIME TO BRING THEM HOME. 

What a brave man, when it came down to a vote, how did Congressman John Murtha vote? Well, he voted against the bill, which would have called for, what he suggested......
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B777-700
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 27):
What really pisses me off is how those cry-baby senate republicans responded to Murtha's words. It borders on terrorism itself! Forcing the entire senate to vote on an immediate withdrawal was an asinine move, completely transparent. Murtha's exact words, from his CNN interview, were to recall troops as soon as practicable. And then to have that nutjob lady from Ohio get up and call him a coward was absolutely outrageous. The GOP needs to get a clue - this isn't how you run a country. This isn't even how you run a clubhouse

This isn't an election year. Now you see the real GOP.

Quoting Solarix (Reply 15):
We've made this mistake before and Bin Laden himself always seems to remind us of it.

That's true, and as much as I'm against this war, we broke it, and we need to be the ones to fix it.

As much as I hate to say it, we need to see this through. At least so the persons that caused this mess are forced to take the responsibility for it.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:06 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 29):
What a brave man, when it came down to a vote, how did Congressman John Murtha vote? Well, he voted against the bill, which would have called for, what he suggested......

The vote was a knee-jerk reaction. It doesn't even qualify as a joke. It's a national disgrace. Do you think the republicans who drafted it really planned in provisions for:

"To create a quick reaction force in the region.
To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq"


Like Murtha also stipulated? No, they completely ignored his speech and focused on two words: "immediate withdrawal". There's really no way you can defend them, and anyone who tries is probably a Haldol candidate like the dishonorable Jean Schmidt (Ohio-R).
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MidnightMike
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 31):
Like Murtha also stipulated? No, they completely ignored his speech and focused on two words: "immediate withdrawal". There's really no way you can defend them, and anyone who tries is probably a Haldol candidate like the dishonorable Jean Schmidt (Ohio-R).

Was it a political stunt when Harry Reid ordered the Senate into a closed session. Yes, it was

Was it a political stunt when Rep. Murtha gave a press conference demanding the immediate withdrawl of US forces from Iraq? Yes, it was.

Was it a political stunt when the Republicans put up a quick vote demanding the immediate withdrawl of US forces from Iraq? Yes, it was.

Two wrongs do not make a right, BUT, the Democrats did not speak out against Rep. Murtha speech to the media, so the only way to take away the validity of the speech was to put it up to vote.
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dl021
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RE: Listen To John P. Murtha About Iraq War!

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:00 am

As far as Rep Murtha goes.....he served his time and deserves his say. I think hes wrong, and I believe that to leave now would be a horrible mistake and leave us more vulnerable to a group of thugs and bullies who would then believe more than ever that they could force us to change our policy by terrorist means. We need to help the Iraqis get through this.

Anyone who doesn't think the Iraqis are better off without Saddam say so and we'll have that argument. Anyone who thinks that self determination is wrong, or that the Iraqis are mentally inferior to the peoples in the world who are currently democratic go ahead and say so.

Oh, and the ones who are saying that "if you haven't been there you have no right to speak"....you need to tell us when you served or visited over there.
Other than that you should probably listen and either argue your point or stay silent, but not try to deny others their voice.

(before anyone tries to tell me that I have sought to deny anyone their voice, which is a tendency around here when people are told they are wrong, they should seriously look into it and see if I ever have)

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
The ironic thing was is that Iraq didn't have those terrorist before we got there. They had Saddam, and now they have terrorism.

Well, to be accurate a good chunk of the terrorist element we see now was already there. Saddam kept them suppressed through ruthless ironhandedness. He put his own people on the streets putting down the Shiites and Kurds, and many of the Baathists who are now the terrorists themselves were members of Saddams support base. SO, yes they did have them.
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