texan
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Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:32 am

Link

Holy cow, vote is tonight
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Pope
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:36 am

Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

Democrats will now have to be on the record stating their position either FOR or AGAINST pulling out troops. This is a vote meant solely to take the issue away from the democrats in the 2006 election. If they vote FOR they can't then criticize the White House during the 2006 election cycle lest the flip flop label come out again.

If they vote against it, the GOP will argue that the representatives are soft on terrorism and wanted to cut and run.

I'd love to know whose idea this was because it is brilliant. Best thing a democratic congressman can do is get on a plane to anywhere right now so that they can honestly say that they were out of town and didn't get to vote.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
mt99
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
I'd love to know whose idea this was because it is brilliant.

Im thinking Karl Rove. He is an genius evil like that.
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dan-air
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

And quite apropos. A war started for political gain ('02 midterm and '04 presidential election), now the GOP is milking it for another round of elections. Good for them.

Any WMD found yet? Any links to Al-Qaeda? No? Never mind. Who cares what the half of this country and the entire rest of the world perceive the US invasion of Iraq. 2000 kids and $300 Billion? De nada! This is fuckin' politics, Texas-style.

M-fuckers.
 
DTWorBust
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:46 am

Interesting though, Delay is not whipping right now b/c he's out on his keister - and there is a rumor on the hill that he is unofficially whipping for the "other side" so that they "need" him back as majority leader when he's done with his indictment. The dems won a budget bill last night and there is speculation that that is why...

(This is all hill gossip from people I know over there so take it with a grain of salt - just wonder if there might be a connection...same time that Murtha came out against the war - lots of momentum shifting)
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satx
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 3):
And quite apropos. A war started for political gain ('02 midterm and '04 presidential election), now the GOP is milking it for another round of elections. Good for them.

 checkmark 

The GOP have nothing to be proud of, so they answer for their actions by simply attacking those on the other side? Pure American 100% Grade-A Bullshit, plain and simple.
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Mir
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:53 am

Are abstentions allowed on stuff like this?

-Mir
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DTWorBust
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:55 am

Interesting - apparently the vote that is up (the Hunter Resolution) is NOT the one proposed by Murtha (D) and is basically intended to put Dems in an uncomfortable position of having rallied behind Murtha and his position yesterday and then vote No on this (as it is not the original proposal).

Chances are most of the American public will not understand the switch-ero and it will be spinned as a classic "supported it before I voted against it" for the Republicans. Sneaky.
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DTWorBust
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:00 am

The Hunter Resolution is attached to the Murtha piece - so the Dems can't vote for Murtha piece without voting FOR the Hunger Resolution. Classic Washington.
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DTWorBust
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:19 am

Check out CSpan if you're near a tv - high drama!
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Pope
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Are abstentions allowed on stuff like this?

Technically yes but it would be political suicide to vote "present" instead of yea or nay. Your opponent would make you out to be a pussy. The best strategy is to head out of town and say that you had a pre-existing commitment and since the vote was scheduled at the last minute, you couldn't be there.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
texan
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):
Technically yes but it would be political suicide to vote "present" instead of yea or nay. Your opponent would make you out to be a pussy. The best strategy is to head out of town and say that you had a pre-existing commitment and since the vote was scheduled at the last minute, you couldn't be there.

There have been a couple instances on controversial subjects that passed with a very low amount of actual votes (two years ago there was a vote in the House that passed with something like 22 For and 6 Against, all the rest abstained). The problem is that it can be political suicide if you vote for it, against it, or if you abstain. Your choice of death, I guess...

Texan
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Mir
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting DTWorBust (Reply 8):
The Hunter Resolution is attached to the Murtha piece

What does the Hunter Resolution state?

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):
it would be political suicide to vote "present" instead of yea or nay. Your opponent would make you out to be a pussy.

Why can't the democrats just say "we're not going to let you bully us into a bullshit vote between two equally unattractive options" and make the Republicans into the aggressors? It's obvious that the Republicans are trying to back the Democrats into a corner - the Dems don't have to let themselves be screwed over.

-Mir
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Falcon84
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

Just a pro-forma piece of show, Pope, nothing else. Most Americans don't back the war, and this is a clever way to try to show soemhow that the war is legitimate.

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
This is a vote meant solely to take the issue away from the democrats in the 2006 election. If

If most the nation was behind the war, Pope, I'd agree with you, but if Iraq continues to be a pain in the ass to the Administration, this could backfire terrible. If the pace of deaths among our troops increases-and let's hope it doesn't-than it could be turned around and put as "the GOP were the ones that kept our troops there to be killed." Is that likely, I doubt it, but neither is some big political advantage for the GOP doing this move.

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
If they vote against it, the GOP will argue that the representatives are soft on terrorism and wanted to cut and run

Again, one problem, Pope: most Americans don't believe that Iraq has a legit tie to the war on terror anymore. They see them as separate events. Again, that could backfire on the GOP.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Most Americans don't back the war, and this is a clever way to try to show soemhow that the war is legitimate.

Tell me about it. I don't think anyone is more keenly aware of this fact than those serving in Iraq. Many soldiers feel as though it is only they who are making the sacrifices in this war. Look, for all practical purposes, life is put on hold when you go over there. Many of them are glad to do it, because it's the job they signed up for. But you go over there for a year (which is probably your 3rd or 4th time so far) and when you come home, you look around and say, "Hey, I'm over here in the suck, and people back home are going about their lives uninterrupted. I'm sacrificing a lot, and they're not."

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usnseallt82
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

All I can say is, I wouldn't hold your breath on any type of 'quick' withdrawl. It would be far more dangerous than helpful and wouldn't pass on the Hill. But, it will be interesting to see what happens.
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searpqx
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Again, one problem, Pope: most Americans don't believe that Iraq has a legit tie to the war on terror anymore. They see them as separate events. Again, that could backfire on the GOP.

I agree with Pope that this is a slick piece of political manuvering, but I think Falcon is closer to the real issue - this is actually a big risk for the Repubs. If the concerns about our involvement in Iraq continues to mount as they have this year, by fall of '06, being portrayed as having created a political game out of the vote will be a very hard to explain for the Republicans.

What's worse is that Iraq is being used in this manner. We deserve an honest debate about what we're doing and where we're going in Iraq. Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

It all just make me sick, and in the meantime more US men & women die.
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itsjustme
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.

I disagree. Bad move by the GOP. They're in no position to be forcing anyone's hand right now. Their boy has an approval rating in the 30's and continues to fall and most Americans do not support the war. This is a big gamble that will blow up (no pun) in their faces.
 
Pope
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:29 am

You guys are confusing two issues. One is the politics of the action and one is the substance of the action.

From a political perspective, the move forces the democrats to support a position that they don't. If they then take a position during the 2006 campaign that we should withdraw, the GOP will run all sorts of ads highlighting the flip-flop.

Regardless of what the correct policy choice is, this is a brilliant political move because it reduces the DNC's options. Furthermore I guarantee you that the spin on Sunday by the GOP will be that the House passed a bipartisan resolution supporting the administration's position on the war.
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KC135R
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:34 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
We deserve an honest debate about what we're doing and where we're going in Iraq. Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

It all just make me sick, and in the meantime more US men & women die.

I agree 110% - could not have possibly said it better myself!

The two choices our so called political leaders keep throwing out are both bad ideas. What we need to do is finish the job in a timely and efficient manner and get the hell out of there! The real question should be - how do we accomplish that?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

Bingo . . . the epitomy of DC politics at it's finest. The Repubs and Dem have both made asses of themselves - like they do everytime they get within a grid square of each other. Typical DC ultra-partisan politics. Our elected leadership has lost sight of it's purpose - to care for this country. Instead, they worry constantly about the next election and the party.

The problem with the DoD from the start has been NO Plan after the initial assault. Yes, yes, I know - it's a fluid environment. That's why the military has Fragmentation Orders . . .known as Frag-Os. Problem is, they amend an original order - and from my perspective - there has been an Original Order for the Rejuvination of Iraq. After doing what the US does best - taking ground in a fast, efficient and devastating manner - there was no plan to put things back together. If there was it certainly escaped me.
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searpqx
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
You guys are confusing two issues.

Not at all, I completely understand what the Republican's are attempting. And if it works, I agree, it'll be a political master stroke. I just think that a war weary and concerned population is going to be much more open to a Democratic response that the the Republicans we're playing games with our soldiers' lives, and it will blow up in the Republican's face.
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Pope
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 16):
We deserve an honest debate about what we're doing and where we're going in Iraq. Both sides are guilty for not engaging in one. The Dems throw out the non-starter pull out now (disaster) and Repubs reply with stay the course (disaster). Nowhere is anyone talking about an actual plan to accomplish goals (which themselves aren't even established) and then withdraw.

Nice wish, but when's the last time the US Congress had an honest debate about anything? George Washington was right. The rise of factions (political parties) would lead to the destruction of our country.

One need look no further than the US Congress to see how right his statement was.
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Falcon84
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Regardless of what the correct policy choice is, this is a brilliant political move because it reduces the DNC's options.

How do you figure? I think it doesn't limit their options any which way, because a majority of Americans right now, in one form or another, are against this war, Pope, not for it.

If, like I said earlier, the country were still gung-ho for this conflict, then yes, the Dems would be painted in a big corner, but that's not the case. The Dems are seen right now, on this issue, as in line with the country, not the GOP.

It is a dicey move, I think, for the GOP, since they are on the wrong end of public opinion on this one. In fact, many Dems are not for withdrawl from Iraq, like myself, but were either against this war from the beginning, or can't stand the way it's been prosecuted by this administration. In either case, it's the GOP, not the Dems, who are behind the 8-ball on this one.

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Furthermore I guarantee you that the spin on Sunday by the GOP will be that the House passed a bipartisan resolution supporting the administration's position on the war.

And not a soul will believe it. Again, the GOP, in my view, is pinning themselves and their political lives on a war fewer and fewer think is worth the price. And trust me, if Iraq continues to flounder next fall, you can bet the Dems will use this vote as political fodder to lable the GOP as warhawks, at a time when the country is tiring of this conflict.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 21):
Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
You guys are confusing two issues.

Not at all, I completely understand what the Republican's are attempting. And if it works, I agree, it'll be a political master stroke. I just think that a war weary and concerned population is going to be much more open to a Democratic response that the the Republicans we're playing games with our soldiers' lives, and it will blow up in the Republican's face.

Agreed.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:50 pm

What happens if the US withdraws from Iraq.Would the UN take its place.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Would the UN take its place.

Let's hope not . . . .

Bang up job they've done in Africa . . . and there's no Oil for Food money in it for them any more . . .

[Edited 2005-11-19 04:57:42]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:11 pm

Result of the Vote:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/18/congress.iraq.ap/index.html
""The House voted 403-3 to reject a nonbinding resolution calling for an immediate troop withdrawal.""


http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll608.xml

Roll Call Vote Record.

[Edited 2005-11-19 12:13:35]
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MidnightMike
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 3):
Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.
And quite apropos. A war started for political gain ('02 midterm and '04 presidential election), now the GOP is milking it for another round of elections. Good for them.

Any WMD found yet? Any links to Al-Qaeda? No? Never mind. Who cares what the half of this country and the entire rest of the world perceive the US invasion of Iraq. 2000 kids and $300 Billion? De nada! This is fuckin' politics, Texas-style.

Well then, we should have seen every Democrat vote for the immediate withdrawl of US troops from Iraq, since things are soooooo bad.
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Falcon84
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:24 pm

With a vote like that, it does nothing to further any agenda by either Democrat or Republicans. So it wasn't a 'brilliant" move, as Pope suggested. It was one that meant really nothing.

The war will continue; Americans will increasingly be against the war; they no longer trust the word of this administration about why the war was started. And the GOP has, for the moment, an albatross around it's neck called "Iraq".
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MidnightMike
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Brilliant political move by the GOP leadership.
Just a pro-forma piece of show, Pope, nothing else. Most Americans don't back the war, and this is a clever way to try to show soemhow that the war is legitimate.


Falcon

It was show Sen. Reid ordered the Senate into a closed session, it was a show when Rep Murtha spoke of how bad it was in Iraq and that we should withdraw, so, yes, it was a show for the Republicans to put up a vote for the immediate withdrawl of US troops from Iraq.

Ironic, that Rep. Murtha voted against the bill, this was his chance to shine, to quote Rep Murtha

Quote:
"It is time for a change in direction," said Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., one of Congress' most hawkish Democrats. "Our military is suffering, the future of our country is at risk. We cannot continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf region."

What was also a show was that Rep Pelosi did not condem his speech.

This was a simple vote to call out the Hyocrites, and it worked like a charm.
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Falcon84
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 29):
It was show Sen. Reid ordered the Senate into a closed session, it was a show when Rep Murtha spoke of how bad it was in Iraq and that we should withdraw, so, yes, it was a show for the Republicans to put up a vote for the immediate withdrawl of US troops from Iraq.

Again, it will mean nothing in swaying the public that the war is the right thing, Mike. Not in the least. It was a pro-forma vote, nothing more. If the public was behind the war, say the way it was in the summer of '03, and Murtha and Reid had done what they did, then it would be an entirely different story. They'd be crucified. The only ones crucifying them, with dumbass remarks about Michael Moore are the WH and Congressional Republicans. There is no outcry from the public, and, in the end, that's what matters.

I don't think this will affect Republicans in the here and now. But if Iraq continues to be an issue next summer, into the Midterms, the war will be an issue that could spell doom for more than a few Republicans.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 29):
What was also a show was that Rep Pelosi did not condem his speech.

This was a simple vote to call out the Hyocrites, and it worked like a charm.

Only to the stubborn few, like yourself, who still support this war, Mike. To the rest of the public, it was like a piece of ice on a hotplate. It had no effect on their view of the war. This vote really means nothing. Not with the public coming out against this war in larger and larger numbers.

But keep your stubborn view that this war was just and good. If the war continues to lag, your GOP heroes could find themselves on the outside looking in next November.
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GuitrThree
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:21 am

I think it was a great move. Political or not, it was meant to shut down all those on the Democratic side, that just 3 years ago were making quote after quote about how Saddam had WMD's, how big a threat he was, and how he needed to be taken out. Humm.. that was when it was popular (i.e., votes for the 2004 election).

Now, the war is losing supporters, so, humm, it's popular to NOT support the war, and say it was all a big lie (as the justification for their "yes vote"). The democrats are using it as a way to gather votes in 2006.

When asked for a PLAN to get us out of Iraq last Sunday (11/13/05) on NBC's Meet the Press, DNC chairman Howard Dean could NOT give one. Text from that show:

"MR. RUSSERT: But is it enough for you to say to the country, "Trust us, the other guy's no good. We'll do better, but we're not going to tell you specifically how we're going to deal with Iraq."

DR. DEAN: We will. When the time comes, we will do that.

MR. RUSSERT: When's the time going to come?

DR. DEAN: The time is fast-approaching. And I outlined the broad outlines of our agenda. We're going to have specific plans in all of these areas.

MR. RUSSERT: This year?

DR. DEAN: In 2006."



2006? Why wait? If it is so important to get out of Iraq (which it is), why wait? Why not GIVE us this plan so we (as a country) can use it? Truth is, there is no plan, just utter BS, again, let's do what's popular today to get elected. Soldiers are dying, you have a plan, but we all have to wait for 2006 to hear it. Is that what he said??

Now, with all this so-called "evidence" of lies and distorted truths, EVERYONE in the House, both the Dems and Reps were given the choice to get us out of this horrible "lie."

I have no problem with those that are against this war who were against it at the start. No problem at all.

But those, and the list is long, who were all for taking out Iraq when it was popular, and now are against it because it is popular, need to take a hike.

Some of those, you ask? If you have the balls, go watch:

http://www.gop.com/MultiMedia/VideoLauncher.aspx?id=1033
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rjpieces
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:34 am

Did anyone watch CSPAN last night? It was honestly very moving. I spent like three hours on a Friday night glued to the TV. Earlier in the evening, I wanted to punch the lady who called Murtha a coward.....

Anyhow, I'd love to see a vote on Murtha's resolution. That would be quite interesting!

[Edited 2005-11-19 16:36:15]
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ltbewr
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:04 am

No one has a exit strategy and really the neo-cons/Bush really don't want one. While the occupation of our forces in Iraq is very messy and could end badly, in the meantime, we keep our semi-control there of the oil for the USA, EC, and Japan and away from China. It is also intimindation and punishment in the people of the Islamic world for their support of terror against the rest of the world and in particular Israel, including revenge for 9/11.
We want a government in Iraq that will be subservient to the USA but we are not going to get that. We screwed that up badly when we took down not only Saddam Hussain, but also total destoyed the government structure and facilities in the inital war. We (the USA) effectively became their 'government', in effect a dictatorship run by Bush with his 'selected' puppets in Bagdad. This of course means a government not respected by the people there and a lot of opportunities for sub-groups to try to seize power, and almost certantly civil war and a war against the USA as occupiers and the power in the country.
Of course this vote was a bad joke made to make the Republicans look strong to their White Male base and screw the Demo's as it make them look like immoral wimps, on top of the long bashing with conterversial and contrived issues (like gay marriage). I would say though the government that will develop in Iraq in 2006 will demand as one of it's first acts that the USA get out ASAP, at least by the end of 2006, with no bases, not troops, just leave the money behind as you leave.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 30):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 29):
What was also a show was that Rep Pelosi did not condem his speech.

This was a simple vote to call out the Hyocrites, and it worked like a charm.
Only to the stubborn few, like yourself, who still support this war, Mike. To the rest of the public, it was like a piece of ice on a hotplate. It had no effect on their view of the war. This vote really means nothing. Not with the public coming out against this war in larger and larger numbers.

But keep your stubborn view that this war was just and good. If the war continues to lag, your GOP heroes could find themselves on the outside looking in next November.

I never mentioned the general public, not once. This was something to quiet the internal bickering and the grandstanding of some of the Democrats.

Now, before you put words in my mouth, as soon as Iraq has a strong enough Police Force & a military, I would like to get our boys out. But, pulling out tooo early would be a disaster.

Would like to see the United Nations start placing pressure on Syria & Iran to control their borders and stop allowing foreign terrorist enter Iraq, but, of course that is not going to happen....
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GuitrThree
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 33):
No one has a exit strategy and really the neo-cons/Bush really don't want one...... EXTRA NONSENSE DELETED TO SAVE BANDWIDTH....I would say though the government that will develop in Iraq in 2006 will demand as one of it's first acts that the USA get out ASAP, at least by the end of 2006, with no bases, not troops, just leave the money behind as you leave.

LTBEW,
seriously, are you Michael Moore or George Soros in disguise?
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j_hallgren
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:07 am

I thought it was pretty good move by Reps...the Dems essentially said "we want a vote on this"...Reps said: Ok let's vote...now the Dems call vote a politcal stunt...DUH! Deps got what THEY asked for...so they are thus calling their own move a stunt, it would then follow!
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Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
I think it was a great move. Political or not, it was meant to shut down all those on the Democratic side, that just 3 years ago were making quote after quote about how Saddam had WMD's, how big a threat he was, and how he needed to be taken out. Humm.. that was when it was popular (i.e., votes for the 2004 election).

Did you notice the vote? It didn't do anything. Nothing. Not a thing. It didn't accomplish anything, except to try and cover up the crybaby antics by the WH and some Republican female from Ohio who made a jackass of herself.

And, typical of the GOP, you try to shift the blame to where it doesn't belong. Not one word, about how Bush, who has the power, took us to war over false intel. Interesting.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
The democrats are using it as a way to gather votes in 2006.

Gee, Sherlock, how'd you figure that one out?  sarcastic  No diff than the Republicans trying to use 9/11 and the war in Iraq for political gain in '02 and '04. Or did that slip your mind?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
2006? Why wait? If it is so important to get out of Iraq (which it is), why wait?

Well, Sherlock, since there's only about 45 days left in the year, it really isn't feasable to do that without preparation, isn't it? Another instance of you beating a non-issue like a dead horse.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
I have no problem with those that are against this war who were against it at the start. No problem at all.

Bullshit.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 34):
I never mentioned the general public, not once. This was something to quiet the internal bickering and the grandstanding of some of the Democrats.

Point taken. You could be right. But it won't even accomplish that. I honestly believe the GOP leadership thought-and was hoping for-a very divided vote. They didn't get it. Had all the Dems come out for the withdrawl, and all the Republicans against it on this vote, the GOP might very well have ahd a handfull of ammunition. But with this proforma and, in the end, meaningless vote, nothing at all changes.

Maybe it's good both sides have the Thanksgiving break to go to now. The rhetoric has really gotten shrill on both sides in the past week, egged on, in part by the White House. Perhaps, everyone going home, and taking the break and time to reflect, cooler heads will prevail. But I'm not counting on it, from either side.
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UAcosCS
Posts: 380
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:24 pm

That is the sad part of Aviation. Most of you people are so liberal, and brainwashed. Lets vote for Hillary! She'll do just as good as her husband. white 
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Falcon84
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 38):
That is the sad part of Aviation. Most of you people are so liberal, and brainwashed. Lets vote for Hillary! She'll do just as good as her husband

Another well-spoken, well-educated, totally indoctrinated simp if the right.

Congratulations.

Incredible.
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Mir
Posts: 19093
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 38):
That is the sad part of Aviation. Most of you people are so liberal,

It has been said that aviation attracts the more intelligent...  Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Point taken. You could be right. But it won't even accomplish that. I honestly believe the GOP leadership thought-and was hoping for-a very divided vote. They didn't get it. Had all the Dems come out for the withdrawl, and all the Republicans against it on this vote, the GOP might very well have ahd a handfull of ammunition. But with this proforma and, in the end, meaningless vote, nothing at all changes.


Falcon

The vote put the Democrats in a bind and it went as the Republicans wanted, it put on paper, the Democrats support for the war.

It was a political stunt, I am honest enough to admit to that, BUT, it was a Democrat, who was labeled as a "hawish" Democrat and one that was in favor of the war that gave a press conference and how we need to get out.

So, when a vote came out calling for the immediate withdrawl of US Forces from Iraq, every Democrat, except for 3, voted against the bill, including Rep. Murtha, it makes him look like a hypocrite.

It was Sen. Kennedy that said

Quote:
No matter how many times the Administration denies it, there is no question they misled the nation and led us into a quagmire

, well, he voted against the immediate withdrawl bill.
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GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
The democrats are using it as a way to gather votes in 2006.

Gee, Sherlock, how'd you figure that one out?

So let me get this straight..

So you, Falcon, say it's ok to politicize a war, make statements that hurt the troops, basically ignore all the good in Iraq and just focus on the bad, and basically run around and vote whats popular no matter what, just to win an election.

You really support that? If not.. let's see you say it. Let's see you say, "I think what the dems are doing, what they are saying, and how they are hurting the effort is a disgrace, just to gather votes for '06 and '08."


Again.. the democrats have ZERO agenda. None. Their game plan? Attack the right. Even if it means losing a war. That is the only way they can win at the box.

The vote? Sorry you lib's didn't like it. I can understand why. Split vote? Shows all those on the left who don't support our troops, especially now that they are in Iraq.

Nonsplit, like it was? Now the dem's can't go around calling for an immediate withdrawal.

Brilliant.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
I have no problem with those that are against this war who were against it at the start. No problem at all.

Bullshit.

Seriously. I never said I'd agree with them, but I would honor their belief to think say how they want.
My problem is all those now who supported, voted for, and were in support of the war, who now, as popularity of the war sinks, are against it and instead of saying "I was wrong," they blame it on others i.e., the President Lied. Again, I would have no problem if someone here said, yea, I thought it would have been a good thing, but it didn't turn out the way I thought. But no.. we get.. "yea, I supported it, but that was only after listening to Bush's lies." However, funny thing about that is that there is still, not one shred of evidence that Bush lied. Maybe an even more brilliant vote would have been to make it:

Bush didn't lie, keep the troops there
Bush lied, withdraw troops immediately.

Wonder what the vote would have been then...

I for one love the fact that the Republican's finally have awaken from their sissy "we're gonna be friends plan" they had. It's about time they started standing their ground, and showing the American Public that the Democrats have absolutely no plan, except to attack those on the right.
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Falcon84
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 41):
Falcon

The vote put the Democrats in a bind and it went as the Republicans wanted, it put on paper, the Democrats support for the war.

Wrong. You'll read it like that because YOU support the war. The only thing the vote was about was on an immediate pullout. I do not support the war, yet I am against an immediate pullout. It said nothing about supporting the war or the administration. Nice leap you make, but it's incorrect, and you'll find it will increase support for the war not one iota.

It put the GOP in a potential bind because if it gets worse, it'll be remembered that they're the one who forced this resolution, and stooped to infantile name-calling of a respected conservative Democrat n defense of what is becoming an indefensible position.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 41):
Quote:
No matter how many times the Administration denies it, there is no question they misled the nation and led us into a quagmire

, well, he voted against the immediate withdrawl bill.

Again, there's a difference between being for immediate withdrawl, and supporting the Administrations unjust war in Iraq.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 31):
The democrats are using it as a way to gather votes in 2006.

Gee, Sherlock, how'd you figure that one out?

So let me get this straight..

So you, Falcon, say it's ok to politicize a war, make statements that hurt the troops, basically ignore all the good in Iraq and just focus on the bad, and basically run around and vote whats popular no matter what, just to win an election.

Nice that you omitted the second part-as I figured you would-about the GOP politicisizing 9/11 and the war in Iraq in '04 for their own political advantage.

Everytime Bush seemed in trouble in '04, wasn't it strange that the terror alert level was suddenly raised, and American fears increased, which, of course, only helped Mr. Bush.

I am not saying it's OK, GuitrThree. It's lamentable that either side politisizes terrorism or this war, but if one side is free to do so, is the other side not? That's an honest question, although I'm not expecting an honest answer from you.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
You really support that? If not.. let's see you say it. Let's see you say, "I think what the dems are doing, what they are saying, and how they are hurting the effort is a disgrace, just to gather votes for '06 and '08."

It is a disgrace, but the ground rules for these subject were set in '02, '03, '04, by the Republican party. And thus the war and 9/11 became politicized. It is a damn disgrace, that both sides have stooped to this, but if that's what the playing field is, the Democrats have just as much right to stoop to it as the GOP did a few years back, when they were riding high, and support for the war was high.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):

Again.. the democrats have ZERO agenda. None. Their game plan? Attack the right.

I don't see much of an agenda coming from the right, either, except to attack the left if they dare critisize Bush and the war. Bush refused to set a timetable for withdrawl; he refused to admit the war started under dubious pretenses; he has the balls to charge his foes are rewriting the history of how the war started,when he himself has selected amnesia over the very reason it started.

Neither side has much of an agenda right now, except standing toe-to-toe with each other in what could be the nastiest set of Congressional Midterms in our lifetime coming up next year. Agenda's are going to take a back seat to political hardball for a while.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
The vote? Sorry you lib's didn't like it. I can understand why. Split vote? Shows all those on the left who don't support our troops, especially now that they are in Iraq.

See there you're wrong. There was no split vote, which is what the Republicans were truly wanting, of that I have no doubt. That was the ploy, and it backfired. Had the vote been split, the GOP would have had an issue, but the Dems didn't play along because 1. Most don't feel an immediate pullout is required at this time, and 2. They saw right through the GOP charade.

And cut the horseshit about not supporting the troops. All be the furthest loons on the left and the right don't support the troops. I don't support the political decision that sent them to this war, but I do and always have supported them as they try to accomplish a difficult task. Fortunately, that line doesn't get me too upset anymore, because you're in a minority in supporting a war that should never have been fought. I guess you are saying that about 55 to 60% of the American people don't support the troops now. In that you're wrong, and you know you're wroong.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
My problem is all those now who supported, voted for, and were in support of the war, who now, as popularity of the war sinks, are against it and instead of saying "I was wrong,"

Gee, people do change their mind. They were wrong-I said that three years ago, and at least they have the honesty, unlike the man who started this war, George W. Bush, to admit as such, instead of lying to the American people with the statement that his opposition is trying to re-write the history of the start of the war, when he himself is guilty of that very fact.

Last week, Bush charged his foes with that very thing: trying to rewrite history, yet in the speech he said this, he rewrote it himself, by saying Congress gave him the authority to get rid of Saddam Hussein in '03. That's an outright lie, and he knows it.



We don't live in a mindless, stagnant communist or fascist dictatorship where it's seen as a crime to disagree with the government, or change one's mind, GuitrThree. People's opinions on things will and do change. That's not a bad thing; that's simply doing what human beings often do.

What would be the bigger crime is seeing, after 3 years, that the intel on this war was false and flawed, and still blindly supporting it-like you do, as an example. We went to war over the premise that Iraq was sinking in WMD. They were not; and out intel was bogus. That was wrong. It is wrong today, and it will always be wrong.

What you can't stand is people aren't agreeing with YOU anymore, and that's driving you up a wall. Too bad. I've maintained since the war began that it was wrong. And I would have been the first to say it was right had we found loads and loads of weapons, which they don't despite the laugable claim now, 2 years later, of some on here, that all those weapons are in Syria or still buried in a nations we've owned for that amount of time.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 42):
I for one love the fact that the Republican's finally have awaken from their sissy "we're gonna be friends plan" they had. It's about time they started standing their ground, and showing the American Public that the Democrats have absolutely no plan, except to attack those on the right.

And that shows how skewed your priorities are. You're just worred that your heroes look like some kind of girly-men, because they (gasp), dare do what was supposed to be done in the democratic process-give and take. You want rigid, non-bending ideologues, go restart the USSR. You cry because the Democrats seem inflexible in their stance, but go out and praise the GOP for doing the same thing. ROTFL.

This war is going to continue to be unpopular with the American people. They finally woke up and realized this war wasn't about what they were led to believe it was about; they finally realize that there's no strategy or rhyme and reason for what we're doing there; they finally realize that Mr. Bush has not been totally honest with them.

His blind, hard-core followers continue to believe it was a good and just thing. It was neither. And the fact that more and more Americans see it as a bad thing, is driving them to new lows in trying to defend the indefensible.
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UAcosCS
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:18 am

RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 38):
That is the sad part of Aviation. Most of you people are so liberal, and brainwashed. Lets vote for Hillary! She'll do just as good as her husband

Another well-spoken, well-educated, totally indoctrinated simp if the right.

Congratulations.

Incredible.

Show us how intelligent you are, you haven't proven it to us yet.

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 38):
That is the sad part of Aviation. Most of you people are so liberal,

It has been said that aviation attracts the more intelligent...

This is coming from a guy who isn't even legally allowed to buy an alcoholic beverage. Smile
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:34 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):

We don't live in a mindless, stagnant communist or fascist dictatorship where it's seen as a crime to disagree with the government, or change one's mind, GuitrThree. People's opinions on things will and do change. That's not a bad thing; that's simply doing what human beings often do.

AGREE. 100%.. But not one, I repeat, NOT ONE of the Democrats "changed their minds." They refuse to say they changed their mind. They continue to say they voted based on intel brought on by the President. Again.. Any proof of lies?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
Last week, Bush charged his foes with that very thing: trying to rewrite history, yet in the speech he said this, he rewrote it himself, by saying Congress gave him the authority to get rid of Saddam Hussein in '03. That's an outright lie, and he knows it.

So Congress never voted to authorize the war. Ok. I guess if thats the way you see it...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
It is a disgrace, but the ground rules for these subject were set in '02, '03, '04, by the Republican party. And thus the war and 9/11 became politicized. It is a damn disgrace, that both sides have stooped to this, but if that's what the playing field is, the Democrats have just as much right to stoop to it as the GOP did a few years back, when they were riding high, and support for the war was high.

Two wrongs make it a right in your book I guess...
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Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 45):
So Congress never voted to authorize the war. Ok. I guess if thats the way you see it...

Wrong. Congress authorized the President to use military force if it were proven Saddam had WMD. Congress DID NOT authorize to go to war to get rid of Saddam Hussein. I think if you look at the Congressional resolution, you'll find there's nothing about overthrowing a government in it.

So, with that as fact, who's rewriting the history of what the war was started over? Seems the president is. That's because the WMD story has turned out to be a ruse.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 45):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
It is a disgrace, but the ground rules for these subject were set in '02, '03, '04, by the Republican party. And thus the war and 9/11 became politicized. It is a damn disgrace, that both sides have stooped to this, but if that's what the playing field is, the Democrats have just as much right to stoop to it as the GOP did a few years back, when they were riding high, and support for the war was high.

Two wrongs make it a right in your book I guess...

Didn't say that, but are you telling me that the Dems are not allowed to play by the same set of rules set down as precident by the Republicans? That's what you're telling me.


Having said all this, I have to give credit where it's due: in the last few days, President Bush and VP Cheney have tried to curb the rhetoric and to ease the passions on both sides of this debate. Both are correct when they say this is a legitimate debate. Both have the right to respectfully disagree with Mr. Murtha. So I give them credit for trying to difuse the passions. I think there may be some other motives behind that, but that's not relevant, I think, to the fact that it was a wise move, with Congress out of town, for the White House to try and set a new tone on the debate. I think the President regrets the statement that compared Murtha to Michael Moore, and I think he realizes he stepped over a line with that one.

Maybe we can get back to a more civil, serious discussion on this matter after the Thanksgiving recess is over.
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halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 46):
Having said all this, I have to give credit where it's due: in the last few days, President Bush and VP Cheney have tried to curb the rhetoric and to ease the passions on both sides of this debate. Both are correct when they say this is a legitimate debate. Both have the right to respectfully disagree with Mr. Murtha. So I give them credit for trying to difuse the passions. I think there may be some other motives behind that, but that's not relevant, I think, to the fact that it was a wise move, with Congress out of town, for the White House to try and set a new tone on the debate. I think the President regrets the statement that compared Murtha to Michael Moore, and I think he realizes he stepped over a line with that one.

Maybe we can get back to a more civil, serious discussion on this matter after the Thanksgiving recess is over.

I hope you are right. Unfortunately, finding civil, serious discussion on just about any facet of American politics has become much harder since the late 90's. Both Clinton and Bush seem to provoke much higher passion among their respective opponents, and the American people are worse off for it. The left hates Bush, the right hates Clinton, and serious discussion gets lost in the mudslinging from both sides.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
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RE: Congress To Vote On Pulling Out Of Iraq

Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 5):
The GOP have nothing to be proud of, so they answer for their actions by simply attacking those on the other side? Pure American 100% Grade-A Bullshit, plain and simple.

It is a 2 way street. The Dems play the exact same games sometimes. I guess it is only wrong when the Republicans do it.

The pointless political battles are a big part of why I cut way back on the amount of news I watch. Nobody ever wins, but plenty of people lose.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.

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