Falcon84
Topic Author
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"Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:07 am

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,1753730.story?coll=la-home-nation

More and more evidence is piling up that this Administraiton believed what it wanted to, took dubious intel and blew it way out of proportion, all to support a war Bush wanted to start since the day he became President.

I'm sure our Bush/war apologists on here will point it it IS a liberal bias, and, after all, coming from the Euro's. Keep your blinders on, fella's. The preponderance of eveidence is growing that we were misled about this war.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NoUFO
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:44 am

" The German authorities, speaking about the case for the first time, (...)"

I consider LA Times a good newspaper but those "news" are at least one if not two years old.

If you dig through our archive, you'll find some posts on "Curveball" and BND's claim that he wasn't a reliable source.
I support the right to arm bears
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 1):
but those "news" are at least one if not two years old

suppose that THIS is the U.S. way of "recycling" ! why not use again what CAN be used again ?
 
dl021
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:31 am

Let's say that Curveball is a screwball.....

tell me why we are in a position to ignore intelligence from a source that the Germans consider good enough to take care of when we have other sources that were telling us the same thing?

Do you guys consider the threat of germ warfare from a guy who has already used WMDs against his own people as well as other nations to be a matter of international law where we need to lay out an airtight legal case?
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Falcon84
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
tell me why we are in a position to ignore intelligence from a source that the Germans consider good enough to take care of when we have other sources that were telling us the same thing?

No one said "ignore" the source, Ian. But obviously, Bush and friends, who wanted this war in Iraq from day 1 in office, chose to believe a source the Germans said themselves was not entirely with it, and who's information had not been backstopped by any other source. That's the point-the Administration TOOK US TO WAR, on sloppy, phony, unsubstantiated and questionable inetlligence. Shouldn't that make YOU a little pissed off at Bush and his cohorts?

Bush wanted this war from the moment he came to office-that's been corroborated by separate books by men he had in his employ at one time after 1-20-01. This is just another brick in the wall of evidence that he was willing to do and believe anything to justify a war against Iraq.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Do you guys consider the threat of germ warfare from a guy who has already used WMDs against his own people as well as other nations to be a matter of international law where we need to lay out an airtight legal case?

So, we don't need an airtight case for sending our young men and women to war, Ian? We shouldn't backstop, corroborate and verify the intellligence? Because that's what we did. How dare you say such an irresponsible thing, dude.

1. He didn't have this threat. It was contrived. You seem to forget that in all your hosannah's for this war. The specter of WMD somehow got lost by war supporters like yourself when the truth came out, and you had to resort to new, phony reasons for this war.

2. You're damn right we should have as airtight case for going to war as we can, and not leave in the air as we did here. The fact you bring up WMD here, and the fact Bush's cronies went on the thinniest of bad intel should outrage you, who support this war, and have from the beginning.

Instaed, you apologize for it once again. How sad.
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clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
But obviously, Bush and friends, who wanted this war in Iraq from day 1 in office

Obviously? Seems you want to believe that as much as you want to believe that Bush lied and mislead people. The world changed the night of September 11 falcon. You don't realize that do you?

Now that....IS sad.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
scamp
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 5):
Obviously? Seems you want to believe that as much as you want to believe that Bush lied and mislead people. The world changed the night of September 11 falcon. You don't realize that do you?

Actually, in your zeal to defend George W. Ass-wad, you clearly did not read what Falcon wrote:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Bush wanted this war from the moment he came to office-***that's been corroborated by separate books by men he had in his employ at one time after 1-20-01.*** This is just another brick in the wall of evidence that he was willing to do and believe anything to justify a war against Iraq.

You didn't realize that, did you?
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
aloges
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 6):
Actually, in your zeal to defend George W. Ass-wad, you clearly did not read what Falcon wrote:

Careful, don't confront him with facts or he'll berate you because of your age!  rotfl 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:52 am

Scamp, I honestly think you and others are trying to rewrite history. I have an issue with that. I also have an issue with the absolute non-stop name calling of a President of the United States. As any American, you and others should be ashamed. Disagree with his politics and that's fine. Attempt to drag people through the mud and make our enemies enjoy it in the process is not what I call being an American. You play into many hands doing that. Start realizing it for the bigger and better common good of the country which is at war by the way. In case you had not noticed.  Yeah sure

Twist all you want to. Allow me to say it for you...The End.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
dl021
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
So, we don't need an airtight case for sending our young men and women to war, Ian? We shouldn't backstop, corroborate and verify the intellligence? Because that's what we did. How dare you say such an irresponsible thing, dude.

Number one...there is no such thing as airtight when it comes to wondering whether there is an enemy that is willing to use weapons we believe they have. There will be no 'airtight' case against most any nation that we believe to possess weapons. I personally don't want our government to send nothing but nasty notes to people that we have reason to believe want to harm us.

You call me irresponsible? I say irresponsible is waiting to get hit by these weapons. The intent to harm us has been proven over and over again. The capability of Iraq to restart their programs virtually at will is not in doubt even now. Their actions in acting squirrelly around the inspectors did not lend themselves toward credibility. You want to wait until someone finds nuclear-biological-chemical materials to justify us taking action? What do you think these things are? A couple of backpack bombs that will kill a couple hundred people? One chemical weapon deployed by a mister in a downtown here in this country could kill or maim thousands. That agent could be delivered clandestinely by any of the states who possess these weapons and are intent upon harming us.

You want to wait for that?

You assume that the intel was bad and that we knew it. You assume alot. There are always intel officers with dissenting opinions from the official line, and much of what is being focused on here is the dissenting opinion which is being seen through hindsight. I was in military intelligence as a gatherer. I will tell you right here and now that there is no such animal as "airtight" intelligence in 99.9% of all cases. You have to go on what you have, and I personally would rather our leaders err on the side of caution. I say that as a person who has been a cog in that machine that gets sent to deal with such things, and has friends...blood brothers...out there right fucking now doing that job. That's how I dare.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
in all your hosannah's for this war.

I say no hosannahs for any war, and I dare you to find any from me anywhere. War sucks. I know that for a fact. Next time I'm in CLE I'll stop by and show you the scars. But what would suck worse...no..what DOES suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):

2. You're damn right we should have as airtight case for going to war as we can,

Refer to my earlier writing in this post. THere is no such thing. As close as possible is a matter of opinion and the effort now is to set the bar for acceptability so far back that we will get hit first. Now, tell me which city needs to get hit by some unoccupied tangos before you are ok with moving forward.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
1. He didn't have this threat. It was contrived.

Bullshit. It perhaps was overestimated....but is that better or worse than underestimated? Are we better safe than sorry? It's important to make that distinction, because we've now seen what happens when we wait around to get hit.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
scamp
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 8):
Scamp, I honestly think you and others are trying to rewrite history. I have an issue with that. I also have an issue with the absolute non-stop name calling of a President of the United States. As any American, you and others should be ashamed. Disagree with his politics and that's fine. Attempt to drag people through the mud and make our enemies enjoy it in the process is not what I call being an American. You play into many hands doing that. Start realizing it for the bigger and better common good of the country which is at war by the way. In case you had not noticed.

Twist all you want to. Allow me to say it for you...The End.

Ya know, it's true...as an American, I have plenty be ashamed of. The dick wads in power and the bigger dick wads that put them there are two examples. Still, you have something of a point (and I could go further with that comment, but I will demure), one simply gets to the stage when you're dealing with right wing morons fucking up your country, you dread opening your newspaper or turning on the news, there just seems to be no other way of expressing myself. Other than to say that great will be the day when the Shrub puts a glock to his head on the Capital steps. That would be a start.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
Klaus
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 5):
The world changed the night of September 11 falcon. You don't realize that do you?

So truth stopped being relevant as a basis for life-or-death issues? Wow!  Wow!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
But what would suck worse...no..what DOES suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront.

If I might add a caveat to your comment Ian . . . .

what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we didn't pay attention to small amounts of questionable intel, that when grouped together, paint a different, plausible, near coherent picture.

In other words . . . what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we were stupid.

Edit: Typo

[Edited 2005-11-20 20:11:44]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:11 am

Who's truth Klaus? Yours? His? Or my own?

I'll pick my own thanks!

On a side note, did you get the video 60 gb ipod yet?  Smile
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
usnseallt82
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
More and more evidence is piling up that this Administraiton believed what it wanted to, took dubious intel and blew it way out of proportion, all to support a war Bush wanted to start since the day he became President.

Falcon, you know this is just another article with another claim that the intelligence agencies used vague intelligence to mislead us into a war. The problem is, you're talking about one specific person who's handlers are claiming was used as the primary source for the knowledge sought after. This asset is probably now coming forward because the Agency and other services cut him off from their resources, since it looks like he proved himself to be fairly inaccurate. There's no proof here other than German intelligence officers testifying to how the U.S. acted on their intelligence. Unfortunately, that's not something they can testify to because all they did was provide the information.....they have no idea how many other sources were being used and whether or not their specific information was actually a player in any decisions made.

This isn't mounting evidence against this Administration or the intelligence agencies. This is one asset who came forward with claims that were a little outside of his paygrade. This isn't a source of infallible information to begin with, so why would it be any different now? Just because he's coming out against the current President, which seems to be a popular trend now, doesn't make him more credible.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I'm sure our Bush/war apologists on here will point it it IS a liberal bias, and, after all, coming from the Euro's.

No, I won't. I'm not going to question whether or not they speak the truth of what THEY actually did. They may be perfectly accurate in what they say. But what I don't buy is that they can speak for the U.S. government's use of the information they provided. The asset may have been a major one, but it was shown that he wasn't very reliable. So he can't speak to how our government used his information. That's why I don't agree with this........not because I think they are a bunch of flaming liberals trying to piss across the Atlantic. We've got enough people pissing from across the Potomac, so I don't think they would waste their time just to start shit. But they can't speak to how we used the information.....plain and simple.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The preponderance of eveidence is growing that we were misled about this war.

No, the misguided few who are adding it all up at home are adding up every single little claim that the government shat all over the intelligence given and went about their own agenda. These claims are not all credible, but people like to consider them to be infallible. Even though it is popular to say the Administration mislead us into war, joining a popular trend doesn't give you automatic credibility. I have yet to see real credible evidence that this President and his staff just went haywire and threw us all into war for absolutely nothing. Those who think this have not taken a step outside their own box to gather every detail.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Number one...there is no such thing as airtight when it comes to wondering whether there is an enemy that is willing to use weapons we believe they have.

Exactly.  checkmark 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
I say irresponsible is waiting to get hit by these weapons.

I agree completely.  checkmark 

The problem right now is that people want to see on their comfortable little TV's at home some sort of black and white evidence that Saddam was about to nuke the world. Anything short of that and people start questioning whether or not he was really that 'mean' of a guy. Even though he gassed the hell out of his own people, tortured his political opponents, threw shitballs at his neighboring countries, and wastefully spent the tax dollars of his citizens, this still isn't enough. People want to see that he had his finger on the trigger of a scud destined for America with a happy-assed grin on his face..........until then, nobody seems to think that he was a threat, even though the world was just waiting around to get hit by something with a label, 'made in Iraq.'

So, I agree completely.......the only irresponsibility would have been if we just sat around behind veils of ignorance that he would do nothing more.
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usnseallt82
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we didn't pay attention to small amounts of questionable intel, that when grouped together, paint a different, plausible, near coherent picture.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 
Crye me a river
 
Klaus
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 13):
Who's truth Klaus? Yours? His? Or my own?

Information consistent with verifiable facts. Not preconceived wishful thinking.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 13):
I'll pick my own thanks!

Yeah, and look where that approach got you by now!  fight 

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 13):
On a side note, did you get the video 60 gb ipod yet?

No, I'm still quite satisfied with my nano!  bigthumbsup 
 
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n229nw
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 5):
The world changed the night of September 11 falcon. You don't realize that do you?

NO "THE WORLD" DID NOT FRIGGIN CHANGE THAT DAY. I'm sick and tired of hearing that excuse trotted out for torture, for justifying anything and evertything. There is no doubt that 9/11/01 was a central event in the history of the US. But:

1.) It was just another terrorist attack of a kind that had been planned and executed in many countries all over the world by many different groups with many different goals for ages. Its destructiveness and human toll was a freak "success" for the wackos. Even OBL did not really expect the towers to collapse it seems.

2.) Not only had other parts of the world been dealing with terrorist methods for a long time (the IRA in Britain, etc. etc.), but many parts of the world had and have their own much bigger problems to deal with: natural disasters, dictators, wars, etc. To these people, exaggerated claims about the import and uniqueness of 9/11 just make the US seem isolated and selfish.

If you must, claim that the US changed on 9/11/01. It did. But claiming that the whole world should stop and think about nothing but 9/11 is just a cheap gambit to silence debate and intimidate those who disagree with your policies.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:27 am

Quote:
Curveball's German handlers for the last six years said his information was often vague, mostly secondhand and impossible to confirm.

This information has been brought up before, but, I point to the above quote, they could not confirm the information one way or the other.

We had our own CIA reports, plus the Brits, the Butler report, the Senate have launched several investigations, the 9/11 report, and all have presented information that something was going on.

In all of the reports, not once have they said that the President has lied.

Operation Desert Fox
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/desert_fox/

December/1998:
MISSION:  To strike military and security targets in Iraq that contribute to Iraq's ability to produce, store, maintain and deliver weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec1998/n12171998_9812172.html
WASHINGTON -- President Clinton ordered a "strong and sustained"
air attack on Iraq Dec. 16 in response to continued Iraqi
attempts to build weapons of mass destruction.

Quote:
"Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors with nuclear weapons, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said from the Oval Office. Clinton said he decided weeks ago to give Hussein one last chance to cooperate. But he said U.N. chief weapons inspector Richard Butler reported that Iraq had failed to cooperate -- and had in fact placed new restrictions on weapons inspectors.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said the attack, named Operation Desert Fox, was necessary because Hussein never intended to abide by his pledge to give unconditional access to U.N. inspectors trying to determine if Iraq has dismantled its biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs.

July-2000

Quote:
Nevertheless, US and British warplanes continue to bomb Iraqi targets on an every-other-day basis and insist that the punitive sanctions regime must be maintained until Saddam Hussein is no longer in power.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june00/iraq_1-21.html

Quote:
Iraqi leaders have refused to allow U.N. weapons inspectors to enter requested sites -- but have granted permission to an international atomic commission. Three experts, including a former inspector, discuss the situation, after a background report.
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Klaus
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:40 am

The unreliability of "curveball" was well-known and publicized even before the invasion. We've had numerous discussions about that back then. This is not new.
 
dan-air
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we didn't pay attention to small amounts of questionable intel, that when grouped together, paint a different, plausible, near coherent picture.

That's four caveats by my count. In other words, we went to war on the thinnest of cases, and ignored every opportunity to avoid the quagmire that Iraq has become.

Absent an act of aggression, shouldn't a nation have an airtight case and irrefutable evidence before mounting an invasion and subsequent years-long occupation?
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 17):
If you must, claim that the US changed on 9/11/01. It did. But claiming that the whole world should stop and think about nothing but 9/11 is just a cheap gambit to silence debate and intimidate those who disagree with your policies.

Actually the world did change because of the far reaching influence that the U.S. has. It's not an excuse, it's reality. Did peoples day to day lives change? Probably not. But did governments views and policies change? You bet they did form one degree to another. As I said, it's not an excuse just a hard fact.
Just ask the people of Bali, Madrid, London, Amman, etc. It changed for them! And it was not because of George W. Bush. Lay the blame where it needs to be laid. Radical fascist Islamic fundamentalism and the willingness to kill you for who you are. That's what people should be bitching about.

I much rather the fight be "there" (Iraq) than in the streets of Chicago or over the tall buildings in New York. Let the terrorists come to Iraq and we can conveniently kill them there.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 20):
Absent an act of aggression, shouldn't a nation have an airtight case and irrefutable evidence before mounting an invasion and subsequent years-long occupation?

No.

In a word.

It is however, a very thin line.

But I'm definitely a believer in pre-emptive measures. I'd be a fool, and so would anyone else, just to wait on a situation to happen . . . any situation. Being prepared to act, and having a plan to act (whether the plan is every implemented is irrelevent - that fact is, it exists), and having multiple plans is sound judgement.

Preparing for nothing, Doing nothing (even pre- emtively), is utterly foolish.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 20):
Absent an act of aggression, shouldn't a nation have an airtight case and irrefutable evidence before mounting an invasion and subsequent years-long occupation?

Do the systematic violating of UN resolutions count? That was another reason for going to war. Or have you conveniently forgotten about those?
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
We're Nuts
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 23):
Do the systematic violating of UN resolutions count?

Since when do you support the UN? Besides, they have a military of their own.
Dear moderators: No.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 24):
Besides, they have a military of their own.

Anybody with half a brain knows that the UN does NOT have a military of its own. They have troops and equipment donated by member nations to help fight peacekeeping missions around the world, but the UN forces can hardly be considered an independent military.
Crye me a river
 
We're Nuts
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 25):
They have troops and equipment donated by member nations to help fight peacekeeping missions around the world, but the UN forces can hardly be considered an independent military.

Let me elaborate: when they create a coalition, they are essentially forming their own military. True, it is comprised of members' troops, but the goals of those troops are meant to be higher than the goals of the individual members.
Dear moderators: No.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 26):
True, it is comprised of members' troops, but the goals of those troops are meant to be higher than the goals of the individual members.

What??? Goals higher than the very members that formed them in the first place?  scratchchin Your signature is very appropriate in this case. Perfect in fact!
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
We're Nuts
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 27):
Goals higher than the very members that formed them in the first place?

Yeah, I think the UN has loftier goals than the US. Right now, we probably aren't thinking about world peace or worrying over who is starving and where. When was the last time Hardball debated that?
Dear moderators: No.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 28):
Right now, we probably aren't thinking about world peace or worrying over who is starving and where.

That's pretty ignorant coming from you, an American. I think we all can let your quote speak for itself. End of your story.

*sets ignore* No time to waste with people who think that way.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
We're Nuts
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 29):
That's pretty ignorant coming from you, an American.

I don't let that prevent me from being objective. Take a look at our priorities. I didn't think hearing that Americans are selfish would surprise or upset you so much, since it really is common knowledge.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 29):
*sets ignore*

I imagine you do that quite often. The rest of the world will fend for itself, though.
Dear moderators: No.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 26):
but the goals of those troops are meant to be higher than the goals of the individual members.

Well, that's utter  redflag .

UN troops, or troops working under the auspices of the UN, are working for the goals of every member nation of the force structure. They certainly aren't working for the goals of Kofi Anan or any other idiot at the UN. The worthless, worn out, outdated, useless UN is nothing but a figurehead. They are cooperating with the UN to forward the prospects of their home government.

It wouldn't matter from what country the troops are from, they are working for the desired result from their home goverment . . . they could give a hoot in hell about the UN in most respects.

Nuts, your commentary is bordering in ignorance . . .
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clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
Nuts, your commentary is bordering in ignorance . . .

That's a roger.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 30):
I imagine you do that quite often.

Only to ignorance.

*resumes ignore*
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
dl021
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
If I might add a caveat to your comment Ian . . . .

what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we didn't pay attention to small amounts of questionable intel, that when grouped together, paint a different, plausible, near coherent picture.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. You are correct because we did not pay enough attention to small amounts of intel, including that provided by Able Danger as well as others, and had all that intel been put together someone would have been able to figure out there was a problem and these people would have been tracked and perhaps prevented from getting on those airplanes that day.
I was in a hurry and a little torqued so I neglected to clarify myself, and with some of the people here you must be very specific or they choose to misunderstand you.

The lack of coordination between the intelligence services is no surprise to me....even though many called for reform there constantly.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 17):
NO "THE WORLD" DID NOT FRIGGIN CHANGE THAT DAY

No...it did not. However, everyone's perception should have changed. The single greatest act of terrorism every perpetrated here in this country happened that day and we all should have had it permanently embedded in our heads that a group of people want harm to come to us and are willing to kill themselves (or their followers) to do it. We should have all realized that since this mentality exists and that we are vulnerable to attack, that we need to be proactive.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 17):

1.) It was just another terrorist attack of a kind that had been planned and executed in many countries all over the world by many different groups with many different goals for ages. Its destructiveness and human toll was a freak "success" for the wackos. Even OBL did not really expect the towers to collapse it seems.

It was not just another terrorist attack..... it was one perpetrated here in this country involving large scale planning and coordination between multiple cells. It was incredibly destructive, and planned to be so. It changed the world stage as far as what could be accomplished by a small group of determined people, and thus opened many eyes on both sides of this war. Which is what it was. A war.....started by someone else.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 17):
To these people, exaggerated claims about the import and uniqueness of 9/11 just make the US seem isolated and selfish.

What exaggerated claims? Thousands were killed and two of the largest buildings in the world were destroyed...our economy was thrown into turmoil, and we had to shut down the air system in this country for a week. What exaggeration specifically are you discussing?


Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 20):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we didn't pay attention to small amounts of questionable intel, that when grouped together, paint a different, plausible, near coherent picture.


That's four caveats by my count. In other words, we went to war on the thinnest of cases, and ignored every opportunity to avoid the quagmire that Iraq has become.

Here is a prime example of someone reading only what they want to see into a statement. He was referring to the events leading up to the attacks of 9-11. Smaj..correct me if I'm wrong.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 20):
Absent an act of aggression, shouldn't a nation have an airtight case and irrefutable evidence before mounting an invasion and subsequent years-long occupation?

No. There is no such thing as an airtight case. Are you saying you'd rather get hit first than strike first when there is what appears to be a good case? THis is not a playground fight where you can recover from the first blow....not when there are nationstates out there that both sponsor terrorists and produce WMD's (one less with Libya deciding to rejoin the civilized world).
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Logan22L
Posts: 4464
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
I was in a hurry and a little torqued

No doubt. The stuffed animal store closes early on Sunday.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
They are cooperating with the UN to forward the prospects of their home government.

Call me an idealist, but I think the UN is more than just the sum of its parts. Maybe it's the idea that through cooperation we can all achieve more. That's a tried and true sentiment, after all, and the driving force behind the UN's creation. Not something at all you would know anything about, though. No, perhaps I'm the ignorant one because I can see that statements like

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
The worthless, worn out, outdated, useless UN is nothing but a figurehead.

are cyclical for a member nation and ultimately self-defeating. But personally, I think the nationalism in here just reeks of bullshit.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 32):
*resumes ignore*

Please try harder to pursue your end of this "ignore" agreement in good faith until you have something worthwhile to say.
Dear moderators: No.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:24 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 35):
Maybe it's the idea that through cooperation we can all achieve more.

I absolutely agree . . . . 100%.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 35):
I think the UN is more than just the sum of its parts.

Twenty years ago - maybe ten - I'd have agreed with you. Any group of entities that comes together for the common good is often, usually, much greater as a whole than as an individual. Unfortunately, as recent events with the UN have shown, they have become nothing but a mere figurehead, an organization that has no "horsepower" if you will. They exist to pass resolutions and pass more resolutions. Their attempt at the Oil for Food program is fraught with dirt. There is no resolution to that as yet, and i doubt there will be . . .

Twenty years ago, the UN carried some weight. Now, they are, sincerely, laughable. Did Saddam listen to the UN? Did PotUS listen to the UN? No to both counts . . . why is that my friend? Because they are a shadow organization with the horsepower and integrity of a door stop.

There was a time . . . not too far in the past . . . the UN was an organization to be reconned with. It's word was binding, countries (save perhaps the USSR and it's communist compadres) listened and paid heed. That is no longer the case We're Nuts . . . . I'm sorry to say.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 5):
The world changed the night of September 11 falcon.

I wasn't talking about 9/11, CH. I was talking about Iraq. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but the only one who believes 9/11 had anything to do with Iraq are a few like Cheney and Bush, who still insist there's a tie-in. Nothing has ever tied them in. In fact, I believe Bush wanted to invade Iraq, long before 9/11 ever happened.

Again, that's fear-mongering on your part, nothing else.

And I agree, the world did change-it made some folks like you on the right, quiver with terror, and to hat a good majority of the world, overnight. Sorry, my friend, b ut that's the way I see it.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
In other words . . . what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we were stupid.

Agree, 100%. But that doesn't justify us starting a war on someone else, then finding out we fucked up royally later on. That only exacerbates the problem. We can't be right all the time, but for God's sake, we could have been more "right" than we were on the Iraq intel.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 8):
Scamp, I honestly think you and others are trying to rewrite history.

I think you're confusing him with George W. Bush, who claimed last week Congress gave him authority to get rid of Saddam. That's rewriting history.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
Falcon, you know this is just another article with another claim that the intelligence agencies used vague intelligence to mislead us into a war.

You are correct, but on top of that we have the indictment of Libby; we have the mere fact that no WMD were there at all, as it turns out; we have this article; we have more and more evidence that the weapons didn't exist, and that the Administration either outright knews this, or in it's want to believe the worst so it could launch a war it wanted from Day 1 of it's existence, didn't bother to even backstop or verify any of this questionable intel.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
But what I don't buy is that they can speak for the U.S. government's use of the information they provided.

I don't think they're speaking for anyone, but it just shows, once again, that this Administration didn't care if there were weapons there in reality-it just wanted it's war to settle and old score. I think that's becoming more and more obviously with each passing week.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
No, the misguided few who are adding it all up at home are adding up every single little claim that the government shat all over the intelligence given and went about their own agenda.

The misguided FEW? When a majority of Americans now BELIEVE the president misled them; who don't trust the word of the president, nor his VP, nor anyone else associated with this unnecessary conflict? I think you underestimate the breadth and scope of the opposition to this war, my friend.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
So, I agree completely.......the only irresponsibility would have been if we just sat around behind veils of ignorance that he would do nothing more.

So, we can justify any attack, on any nation, at any time, simply because we're scared someone else will hit us? That's no justification, in my mind. That's making excuses ahead of time for us doing whatever the hell we want, and be damned anyone else.

I think that's a poor excuse to support a war on someone, my friend.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 18):
This information has been brought up before, but, I point to the above quote, they could not confirm the information one way or the other.

And if that is the truth, you should err on the side of caution, not on the side of starting a war. If you aren't sure-really not sure-you have no justification for all-out war.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 21):
Let the terrorists come to Iraq and we can conveniently kill them there.

That's really pathetic. Yes, let's sacrifice Iraqi's so that ClipperHawaii can live a secure life. Sorry, being an American does not mean the world is yours to do with as you please, CH. And starting a war shouldn't be taken lighly, as you obviously take this conflict.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
But I'm definitely a believer in pre-emptive measures

I am not, because you can justify any act of aggression against a nation, then, like in Iraq, change the reason for the attack, and hold no one accountable for screwing up, as has happened here. Pre-emptive action, especially when carried out by people like Bush who care nothing about the rest of the world's peoples, is a dangerous thing.

We cannot stoop to pre-emptive action. It makes us as bad as those we're fighting. It makes us worse, in some regards, because we're supposed to know better than to just run someone over without just cause.

On that, my friend, we're diametrically opposed.

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 23):
Do the systematic violating of UN resolutions count?

Amazing, guys like you crap on the U.N. all the time ,but then try to justify a war because of the UN. Amazing.

And, apparently, those UN resolutions weren't being violated, because that asshole Saddam didn't have the weapons. So, how do you justify a war, based on if he has weapons, and then you find out he doesn't, and it was all a lie? You don't.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
I was in a hurry and a little torqued so I neglected to clarify myself, and with some of the people here you must be very specific or they choose to misunderstand you.

Yes, you might be labled a traitor by some, if you don't spell it out like some little first-grader.


Again, the truth is, even if your conservative members can't see it, that it's another indication that this adminstration was just itching to go to war in Iraq, and didn't give a rip what reason it could find. It was willing to send American troops to their deaths to settle a personal family vendetta; they were sent to war over weapons that did not exist at the time the war started; and then anyone who dare pointed out this fact was viciously attacked by this Administration to try and take the heat off their own serious failures.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dl021
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 34):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
I was in a hurry and a little torqued

No doubt....The stuffed animal store closes early on Sunday.

even worse...I had to go to the opera with my wife, mother and sister plus clients.....

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
Twenty years ago, the UN carried some weight.

I have to say that even then they were merely a place where the superpowers could face off and stymie any actions they disliked, as well as a place where smaller nations could wield influence far beyond their normal ability and further enrich their governments and diplomats.
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Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 38):
even worse...I had to go to the opera with my wife, mother and sister plus clients.....

And miss FOOTBALL?

Just give Ian's wife the whip and tha pants, everyone.  

[Edited 2005-11-21 02:55:16]
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aloges
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 32):
Only to ignorance.

*resumes ignore*

 rotfl  The funny thing is, no matter how hard he "ignores" someone who dares disagree with him, he still sends them the occasional IM concerning their posts showing how much he really does ignore them.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
But that doesn't justify us starting a war on someone else,

No? The how can you agree here?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
In other words . . . what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we were stupid.

Can't be both ways, Falcon.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
We can't be right all the time, but for God's sake, we could have been more "right" than we were on the Iraq intel.

Now there, I'll agree. But I'll caveat that with questions. Where do you draw the line? Who makes the call as to how far we go? You? Me? Elected Officials?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
I am not, because you can justify any act of aggression against a nation, then, like in Iraq, change the reason for the attack, and hold no one accountable for screwing up, as has happened here.

And IF/WHEN we finally find WMD, what say you then my friend? Will you be thanking your lucky stars or sticking to your position? I'm convinced they were there . . . . perhaps not now, but definitely in the past . . . . I still maintain, regardless of the relationship, they went to Syria or are buried . . . but that's only my opinion.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:04 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
But that doesn't justify us starting a war on someone else,

No? The how can you agree here?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
In other words . . . what does suck worse is having an act of war brought to our homefront because we were stupid.

Can't be both ways, Falcon.

I don't think I'm having it both ways, ANC. I don't think you just attack a nation like Iraq, pre-emptively, without any real, solid proof they're going to attack you, and justify it. I just can't condone that. If we are do go in the direction of pre-emption, we better be damn sure we're right, or we're going to kill thousands upon thousands people around the world for no good reason. That's my fear.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
Where do you draw the line? Who makes the call as to how far we go? You? Me? Elected Officials?

We have no choice than for it to be elected officials, but when the fuck up the way this administration has, heads should be rolling among those who instigagted the conflict. That hasn't happened, and it should be.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
I'm convinced they were there . . . . perhaps not now, but definitely in the past

We know he had them years ago. And we knows we blew the hell out of much of it in '91. But it's obvious he didnt' have them on 3-19-03, and now we're stuck with a war that shouldn't have been fought.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
I still maintain, regardless of the relationship, they went to Syria or are buried . . . but that's only my opinion.

If they were in Syria, we'd know by now. Mossad has agents all over that nation, and we'd have been given some indication. And they're not buried there. If they are, then someone on the ground isn't doing their job because, after 2 years,something-even a vile of biogunk, should have been found. It hasn't.

They're not in Syria, imho, nor buried. He didn't have them because while he had the DESIRE to build them, he didn't have the means. I can't justify a war because some nutcase in the ME had wet dreams about owning WMD.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 38):
even worse...I had to go to the opera with my wife, mother and sister plus clients.....

And miss FOOTBALL?

Just give Ian's wife the whip and tha pants, everyone.

You don't know the half of it.......

oh.....and I wear the pants in this family......she just tells me which ones to put on....  Wink

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
If they were in Syria, we'd know by now. Mossad has agents all over that nation, and we'd have been given some indication. And they're not buried there. If they are, then someone on the ground isn't doing their job because, after 2 years,something-even a vile of biogunk, should have been found. It hasn't.

They're not in Syria, imho, nor buried.

Opinion...not fact. Mossad does not have personnel all over Syria...they have agents just like anyone else would, but there's alot of desert where terrorists are entering Iraq all the time, and it's a fact that large convoys crossed over before the war, and most assume that lots of the missing cash was on some of them as well as other items to be kept in safekeeping, much as happened in 1990/91 when many left for Iran and Jordan, but there has been no accounting for the materiel moved. So...we don't know. SOmeone does, but you nor I have the actual info.
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halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Number one...there is no such thing as airtight when it comes to wondering whether there is an enemy that is willing to use weapons we believe they have. There will be no 'airtight' case against most any nation that we believe to possess weapons. I personally don't want our government to send nothing but nasty notes to people that we have reason to believe want to harm us.

We waited for "airtight" intelligence on Japanese intentions prior to Pearl Harbor - look what that got us.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
This isn't mounting evidence against this Administration or the intelligence agencies. This is one asset who came forward with claims that were a little outside of his paygrade. This isn't a source of infallible information to begin with, so why would it be any different now? Just because he's coming out against the current President, which seems to be a popular trend now, doesn't make him more credible.

 checkmark  And at least one of the books written by a former Bush "insider" is nothing more than a disgruntled former cabinet member who was never on the inside of decisions made regarding the war.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
The problem right now is that people want to see on their comfortable little TV's at home some sort of black and white evidence that Saddam was about to nuke the world. Anything short of that and people start questioning whether or not he was really that 'mean' of a guy. Even though he gassed the hell out of his own people, tortured his political opponents, threw shitballs at his neighboring countries, and wastefully spent the tax dollars of his citizens, this still isn't enough. People want to see that he had his finger on the trigger of a scud destined for America with a happy-assed grin on his face..........until then, nobody seems to think that he was a threat, even though the world was just waiting around to get hit by something with a label, 'made in Iraq.'

Agree completely. Saddam was a murdering bastard who was directly responsible for the wrongful deaths of hundreds of thousands of his own citizens, and for the war against Iran and the invasion of Kuwait.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
No, I'm still quite satisfied with my nano!

I'm thinking about getting an Ipod nano. I take it you don't regret the purchase?

Quoting N229NW (Reply 17):
It was just another terrorist attack of a kind that had been planned and executed in many countries all over the world by many different groups with many different goals for ages.

Oh, really. What other hijacked airliners were flown into skyscrapers before 9/11?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 20):
Absent an act of aggression, shouldn't a nation have an airtight case and irrefutable evidence before mounting an invasion and subsequent years-long occupation?

No.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
I'd be a fool, and so would anyone else, just to wait on a situation to happen . . . any situation. Being prepared to act, and having a plan to act (whether the plan is every implemented is irrelevent - that fact is, it exists), and having multiple plans is sound judgement.

Damn - ANC beat me to the one word answer, and points out why waiting for irrefutable evidence to act is not logical.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 35):
Call me an idealist, but I think the UN is more than just the sum of its parts.

You are an idealist, which is not a bad thing. But with regard to the UN, I can tell you from my frequent personal working relationship with elements of the UN and other countries on UN-related matters, that the UN is no longer - if it ever was - the altruistic organization you think it is. ANC is correct. The UN is just another forum where nations meet in an attempt to advance their national goals.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
You are correct, but on top of that we have the indictment of Libby;

What does the indictment of Libby have to do with what we are currently discussing?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
So, we can justify any attack, on any nation, at any time, simply because we're scared someone else will hit us? That's no justification, in my mind.

If we think the evidence is credible that we are going to be attacked, yes we can.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
We cannot stoop to pre-emptive action. It makes us as bad as those we're fighting. It makes us worse, in some regards, because we're supposed to know better than to just run someone over without just cause.

If you KNEW that the Japanese were about to launch a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, and had the ability to strike their attacking fleet first, you wouldn't have?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 43):
oh.....and I wear the pants in this family......she just tells me which ones to put on....

Yeah, but she has the gun, as I remember.  Big grin

Quoting DL021 (Reply 43):
Opinion...not fact.

I never said otherwise, but the facts as we know them back up my opinion, do they not?  Smile
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ANCFlyer
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
If we are do go in the direction of pre-emption, we better be damn sure we're right,

Never gonna happen . . . .ever. There is an old saying, No Operations Order survives First Contact with the Enemy. What ever info you have may be exactly dead on balls accurate at noon, and be so far out in left field by 1800 you'd ask if it was the same game plan. You can never, ever be damn sure of anything - until the rounds start pinging off your Kevlar.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
That hasn't happened, and it should be.

Yet, if warranted.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
And we knows we blew the hell out of much of it in '91.

I was there . . . I'm not convinced. I think we screwed the dog and didn't finish what we started . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
But it's obvious he didnt' have them on 3-19-03

Obvious to whom? Apparently not everyone is convinced.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 46):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 42):
But it's obvious he didnt' have them on 3-19-03

Obvious to whom? Apparently not everyone is convinced.

I'm certainly convinced; a boatload of Americans are convinced-more than aren't, my friend.

And if they are there, why haven't we found them? Assume for a minute the intel was correct. We started to talk about going to war in Iraq about 6 months before we actually did; are you telling me he could bury all that stuff so completely in 6 months that, two years later, we can't find it? I don't buy that.

And are you saying he may have shipped all of that to Syria-a nation it warred with a decade earlier, and who has aspirations beyond it's borders of it's own? To a man who is as nutty as Saddam? I don't buy that either.

Just my 2 cents, but I think the evidence is on my side.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 47):
And if they are there, why haven't we found them? Assume for a minute the intel was correct. We started to talk about going to war in Iraq about 6 months before we actually did; are you telling me he could bury all that stuff so completely in 6 months that, two years later, we can't find it? I don't buy that.

I don't dispute your convictions . . . but I offer this analogy for your thoughts.

Iraq is roughly the size of California. Eliminate immediately all the built up areas in CA and Iraq . . . lets say we have half that area to play with. In California there is an every single day search for illegal narcotics being produced and cultivated in the state, stretching from the infamous Humbolt County south to San Diego . . . I have participated in several endeavors therein.

No way in hell we'll find it all, ever . . . . and the producers, growers, suppliers, have been in business for a long long time. They have unique methods by which they hide their facilities . . . I've seen them in abandoned structures, new build structures, out in the open forest, buried in the desert, on and on.

While you're quite convinced they aren't there, I'm quite certain they could be . . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 47):
And are you saying he may have shipped all of that to Syria-a nation it warred with a decade earlier, and who has aspirations beyond it's borders of it's own? To a man who is as nutty as Saddam? I don't buy that either.

I said that before. And the fact that warred on each other a decade earlier is moot . . . Iran and Iraq warred on each other as well . . . but where do you think the Iraqi Insurgency is getting most of it's explosives, weapons and ammo . . . and those sources have already been posted here on A-Net.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: "Curveball": More Damning News For Bush/CIA

Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 48):
No way in hell we'll find it all, ever . . . .

Agreed, but it isn't that we've found it all: we've found ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. My point is that we should have found something, by now, that would point to the fact that this guy had all these weapons. We haven't-not a thing, really. in the realm of WMD, has materialized.

After two years, that leads me to believe that our intel was about as bad as it could get, and that our Administration was about as bad as the intel.
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