tbar220
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What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:53 am

Ok, this is a serious question. I'm going to put forth some points here. What has this war achieved?

If we went to war to find and destroy WMD caches and production capability, well we most likely destroyed production capability if there ever was a massive program that our officials claimed there was. We didn't find any stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

We got Sadaam out of power and rid Iraq of an extremely oppressive regime. Yet people are still dying at an alarming rate in the last three years just as they were before the invasion during the sanctions.

They had an election that was imposed by the United States. While it is a more free form of government that they had before, it is divisive along ethnic lines (Sunni, Shiite, Kurd) and is really their only option. They may have a very shaky form of democracy in place, but the security in the country is not exactly very good.

What have we achieved for the Iraqi people? Unemployment is up to 60% in Iraq. Anywhere from 30,000 - 100,000 civilians are dead as a result of the war. Electricity and running water is suspect. We were supposed to repay for the construction with the oil but instead are lining the pockets of big American corporations and security firms. Doesn't sound like the Iraqi people are all that much better off honestly.

What has this war done for the American people? Are we safer from WMD's? We don't know where the majority of Sadaam's nuclear scientists are as they dissapeared after the invasion. Terrorism in the form of militant Islamic fundamentalism is now rampant in Iraq where it was barely noticeable before. We are now more disliked around the world. Rather than fight the culture war in an attempt to stop global terror, we're using guns and bombs, and terrorism doesn't seem to be decreasing. Sure, we haven't had any attacks on our soil, but prior to 9/11, how many did we have?

And for the American families who have soldiers serving in Iraq, what is in it for them? How many families have been torn apart by the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq? How many more of our young men and women have to die there? And for what? What does "stay the course" mean? What IS the "course"? What was the "course" from the beginning? Is it just staying there desperately trying to bring an impossible situation under control? Is it trying to control a low level civil conflict from exploding into an all out civil war? Is it even possible for our troops to achieve this sort of mission without the troop numbers or adequete equipment they've been begging for so much from Donald Rumsfeld?

I understand three years isn't much time to secure a large country like Iraq, but were we in over our heads from the beginning when we tried to invade a foreign country and nation build with less than 200,000 troops? What about Bush's promise not to nation build?

The only solution I see is to withdraw our troops. Not immediately, that's not what I'm saying and that's not what anybody is saying. But if we can withdraw our troops within the next 6-12 months with minimal casualties to our men and women in uniform, I say we do it. This insurgency is out of our hands, it doesn't matter how many people we kill or capture or torture, I don't think the insurgency is going away. Do we honestly think we can stop the insurgency through force? Do we honestly think we can stop a popular uprising in a country of 26 million people with 150,000 troops? Democracy or not, these people aren't working, they don't have regular water and electricity, and they don't have security. I don't think this is a problem our troops can fix.

Is it time to finally demand our troops get out of there? Within 6-12 months? How many more of them have to die for a cause we don't even understand?
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TheSorcerer
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:04 am

I think it didn't achieve much, as you said most things are the same apart from the government and military forces in the country. At first when people said oh bush is only doing it for the oil I didn't believe it by now I'm starting to believe it. Our Soldiers are dying for nothing, if you say soldiers are paid to go to war then fine, look at it from a purely non-personal view, troops are being killed when we might need them somewhere else for a better cause.
In some aspects it's even worse than before the war, the promise to get running water and electricity was made 4 years ago and it still there is no running water or electricity in most areas of Iraq.
What annoys me the most is that Blair sent troops just to please Bush.

The Sorcerer
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KLMA330
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:11 am

Great Britain should have never been involved. Of course tell that to Shell and BP, for as brilliantly stated in another thread, business runs the world, not govt's. And what bigger business than Oil? Incidentally, what were the profits of oil companies over the past couple years? Record breaking? you bet!

As to what this war has achieved? Nothing, for there was no clear mandate from the beginning, so it was bound to fail. Their "course" has changed more frequently than Bush changes his shirts.

Of course it's time to pull out. What a sham...
 
wardialer
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:19 am

Ok people - Just let me explain something here to you that will make this whole thing or topic make sense to you guys...

Here we go and hear me out really real good...Ok??? Ok...Here we go....ready???

BETTER_ECONOMY....

Thats it...Thats why Bush wanted to invade Iraq NOT because of oil...But because he knew that right after the 9-11 attacks our ecomony and worlds economy went sour...so Bush knew that war will equal better economy and guess what??? HE WAS DARN RIGHT...The unemployment rate now has gone down and I dont know how many more jobs got back on their feet again...

Invading Iraq was a very smart move torwards our economy and we succeeded our goal..And if you dont beleive me...read the papers..Thats I would suggest and esp...the Financial section..

That was my 2 cents right there...
 
Aviation
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:52 am

It made Bush alot of money


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mrmeangenes
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:57 am

I ran across this today. It's not a "head-on" response, but it does answer the question in its own way:

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=2818
gene
 
Gilligan
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:04 am

Quoting Aviation (Reply 13):
It made Bush alot of money

Really? How would that be since when he became President everything went into trust? He can't trade stocks, bonds, or any other securities.
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tbar220
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:38 am

Lemme dumb it down to much less words...

If the Pentagon and military commanders in the field say they could carry out a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops within 6-12 months with a minimum of U.S. casualties, would you support it?

I say yes.
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xjramper
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:38 am

Tell me something I want an honest answer to:

I have come to the conclusion that the left wingers are invested in losing this war that we are currently fighting. Think about it....we have everyone big on the left saying bring home the troops now. Yet, when we still have the finest brave men and women signing up for another tour in Iraq, this confuses me.

If Bush does well, as in being correct in fighting and winning this war, it will be hell for the left wingers. As it stands, the right wingers "need" to win this war. Vise versa for the liberals. They need us to lose the war. This is so fu**ed up, it angers me to no end. Why are you wanting your own country to lose its own war? Why?

XJR
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bhmbaglock
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 20):
If the Pentagon and military commanders in the field say they could carry out a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops within 6-12 months with a minimum of U.S. casualties, would you support it?

Assuming that all the bad guys are dead or incarcerated at the end, yes.
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CaptOveur
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting Aviation (Reply 4):
It made Bush alot of money

Please explain how.. Be sure to provide credible sources.

If any of that bull was true he would be on trial.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Gilligan
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
They had an election that was imposed by the United States.

?????They have had two elections held at their own discretion. Remember not too long ago when the word was they would not even be able to have one, and then it would be a bloodbath? Then they were taking forever to create a Constitution even though it took the United States 7 years to create and ratify ours? Now that has been accomplished and not one polling place was guarded by U.S. soldiers. All of them were secured by Iraqi security forces. By all accounts of the election watchers it was a free and fair election and it has been accepted by all but the insurgents.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Unemployment is up to 60% in Iraq. Anywhere from 30,000 - 100,000 civilians are dead as a result of the war. Electricity and running water is suspect.

What was employment before the war? 100% in the workers paradise? Prove those numbers please and how many were combatant deaths? ????Electricity is being restored to many areas that haven't had it for years and in what middle east country is the water not suspect? Yet if it were that bad how come we have not heard reports of cholera, typhoid, or dynestry?

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
We were supposed to repay for the construction with the oil but instead are lining the pockets of big American corporations and security firms.

Halliburton considered selling it's contracts in Iraq in 2004, because the were not profitable.
http://www.halliburton.com/default/m...s_article/2004/article_092804.html

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Sure, we haven't had any attacks on our soil, but prior to 9/11, how many did we have?

World Trade Center number 1, that would be in New York City. Kenya and Tanzania embassies, considered American soil. The USS Cole which is considered American territory if you are on it. Isn't that enough?

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
And for the American families who have soldiers serving in Iraq, what is in it for them?

Their sons and daughters volunteered for the service. By this time virtually all the low ranking soldiers saliors and airmen knew exactly where they might end up when they enlisted. Those that have reupped knew as well.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
What about Bush's promise not to nation build?

Once again, two elections, organized, supervised, secured, and completed under Iraqi control at a time table of their own choosing.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Rather than fight the culture war in an attempt to stop global terror,

The lunacy of this statement is beyond comprehension. They have beheaded people that were non-combatants, blown up a wedding party, just yesterday the blew up a bunch of kids and women recieving toys from U.S. Marines. If you really believe you will "change their culture" then you are a lamb headed for the slaughter.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Is it just staying there desperately trying to bring an impossible situation under control?

The best answer for that is th news from a few days ago "Then a new Republican representative from Ohio, Jean Schmidt, relayed a message to the House that she said she had received from a Marine colonel in her district: "Cowards cut and run; Marines never do." We stay there until the Iraqi security forces can control the situation themselves. People said we would be forever winning a war against Saddam. We did it in record time. People said the Iraqis would never be able to elect their own government that "some people weren't ready for democracy". They had their election and the people abided by the results. Then they said they would never reach agreement on a Constitution and today it is a done deal. So why don't you give it a break and let the system work? What is a stake for the U.S......
"
Mr. Ishihara said U.S. ground forces, with the exception of the Marines, are "extremely incompetent" and would be unable to stem a Chinese conventional attack. Indeed, he asserted that China would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Asian and American cities—even at the risk of a massive U.S. retaliation.

The governor said the U.S. military could not counter a wave of millions of Chinese soldiers prepared to die in any onslaught against U.S. forces. After 2,000 casualties, he said, the U.S. military would be forced to withdraw."

That is the perception we are setting ourselves up for if we cut and run before the job is done.
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tbar220
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:59 pm

Quoting Xjramper (Reply 8):
I have come to the conclusion that the left wingers are invested in losing this war that we are currently fighting.



Quoting Xjramper (Reply 8):
Vise versa for the liberals. They need us to lose the war.

Ok, I think you're coming to very wrong conclusions here. Why would liberals want us to lose this war? Why would we want more soldiers to die? If Bush and Rumsfeld and all the other people in the administration were to properly carry out this war and make more proper decisions, I would support them in it. I supported them at the beginning of the war in the decision to go into Iraq, but now I'm seeing its a big mistake. I'm also seeing that they are not the sort of people I want running this operations, Donald Rumsfeld is a complete idiot who didn't know what the armed forces were getting into in Iraq from day one. Just ask ANCFlyer about that.

But if the war was run properly and we were "winning" the war (which right now we're not if you ask me), then I would support it. But right now, I see no end in sight and want our troops out.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 9):
Assuming that all the bad guys are dead or incarcerated at the end, yes.

What if you can't get all the bad guys? What if this insurgency were to continue for ten more years? Would you support our troops staying there for ten more years? We don't have to agree here, I just want to know.

***

Gilligan,

Clearly, like I said before, three years is not much time for a country to get up on its feet. However, I feel we didn't help them from the start by not controlling the looting and not having enough troop numbers from the outset of the war. Now consider that we have 150,000 troops and this is a country of 26 million in the middle of a popular uprising. It may not be a majority who support the insurgency, but certainly there are millions who do.

The 60% unemployment rate was the number that Murtha said in his speech after he came back from his visit in Iraq. I believe it, its up to you if you do.

Also, Americans who volunteer to serve in the army I respect very much. However, do you think they signed up to go to a war which is extremely questionable? I don't believe in the "be an obediant soldier" idea, that was what got Colin Powell into big trouble. Why shouldn't soldiers question why they're being sent overseas? They don't sign their lives or their conciousness over the government. They sign up to defend this country.

So know we know there were no WMD's. Like it or not, our soldiers are stuck there with no purpose except (A) Survive and (B) Kill the insurgents that are trying to kill you. Is this why we sent our troops over there? What's the plan of the war right now? Where is this going? I have no idea, do you? Certainly nobody in the administration has told us anything except a bunch of hogwash about election dates this and election dates that. We have Rumsfeld lying to us about Iraqi troop numbers. We have Cheney telling us "the insurgency is in its last throes".

Bush made a promise not to nation build, what happened to that promise? I believed we were in danger from Sadaam three years ago, now I know it was either a lie or we just got it plain wrong. And since we did bungle this so bad, why stay anymore? And if we do stay, for how much longer? What does "stay the course" mean? 5, 10, 20 more years?

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 11):
The lunacy of this statement is beyond comprehension. They have beheaded people that were non-combatants, blown up a wedding party, just yesterday the blew up a bunch of kids and women recieving toys from U.S. Marines. If you really believe you will "change their culture" then you are a lamb headed for the slaughter.

I think you misunderstood my statement. One of the biggest problems we have right now around the world is that people view us as the aggressor, as the nation that blows up and kills thousands of people. So after Afghanistan, we did a great job in liberating that country from the oppressive regime of the Taleban.

Now, why don't we have more Arabic translators in the army? Our troops can hardly communicate with the people we are supposed to be liberating. It is extremely important for our troops to be seen as liberators rather than oppressors. And one of the biggest parts of this is the culture of the people we are freeing.

I'm talking about stuff like going around the world and having Americans teach English. Having American dollars building schools in impoverished Arab countries. Spread quality American television and radio to poor areas of the world. Education, education, education. Where does terror come from? Poor, uneducated people. Poor uneducated people are easily seduced into blaming the United States and Israel for their problems and WHAM! You've got a whole new bunch of terrorists. Instead, we should fight back at the same level and spread honest education to these poor people and thus give them more of an opportunity. Side by side with military action targetting existing terrorists, I think this is a better strategy.

However, we got ourselves into such a hell hole with the insurgency in Iraq that I think this opportunity is long gone.

Also, I don't care what China thinks if we leave Iraq. What's more important, what China thinks about us or how many body bags we load up home everyday? I'll leave that for the other thread, which I avoided commenting on because I honestly thought it was a ridiculous discussion.
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Alias1024
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
What has this war achieved?

Great question. I guess that depends on your viewpoint. If you saw Saddam as a threat to the US, then the war eliminated a threat. If you didn't see him as a threat, the war has been mostly useless other than to help secure oil supplies, an important strategic resource.

Quoting Wardialer (Reply 3):
Thats it...Thats why Bush wanted to invade Iraq NOT because of oil...But because he knew that right after the 9-11 attacks our ecomony and worlds economy went sour

Huh? Got any proof for this one? If you want to know why we are in Iraq, take a look around the website www.newamericancentury.org . The group was founded in 1997 by some familiar names like Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, I. Lewis Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz. The letters to Clinton in 1998 and to Bush in 2001 are very interesting, as is the report titled Rebuilding America's Defenses. Reading this may change your mind on why we went into Iraq.
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Mir
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:57 pm

Quoting Wardialer (Reply 3):
BETTER_ECONOMY....

It may be true that our economy is better because of the war. But is it worth the cost in the lives of our soldiers? Being ready to die for the protection of your country is something I hear associated a lot with the military, being ready to die so that your country can have a better economy isn't. It would be pretty shameful if the only way we could get our economy up were to send our troops into battle.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 7):
If the Pentagon and military commanders in the field say they could carry out a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops within 6-12 months with a minimum of U.S. casualties, would you support it?

We are in Iraq. Nothing will change that. A premature withdrawl will not be productive - two wrongs don't make a right. If we can get out of the country within 6-12 months, great. But if that is to be the plan, then we must make sure that Iraq is stable enough that we will not have to go back in. Because if Iraq deteriorates into civil war (which I could easily see happening if we pulled out now), it will become the breeding ground for terrorists that we said it was before the war, and we will have no choice but to do to Iraq what we did to Afghanistan. The presence of Iran is another wild card - nobody knows what they would do in the event of civil war in Iraq, but we're idiots if we think they won't try to take advantage of the situation somehow. When we leave Iraq, we must leave it in a stable condition, otherwise we'll be dooming even more of our soldiers in the long run.

With that said, we can't "stay the course." Our current course in Iraq is a perpetual cycle of small steps forward and small steps back. We need to start making serious progress toward the goal of getting Iraq in stable condition - this may mean changes in policy, changes in leadership, etc. We will be able to withdraw after that goal is complete. But our goal should not be simply to get the troops out - focusing on that will end up with us leaving prematurely.

Simply said, I support getting the troops out as soon as practical, and to get serious about making the conditions for that happen. But getting them out as soon as possible may not be in our country's best long-run interests, and it does worry me that this may soon become our objective - such thoughts are dangerous. There is a middle ground between staying the course and pulling out, and the debate should be working towards finding that middle ground.

-Mir
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A332
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:41 pm

Well...

It's wasted hundreds of billions of dollars, resulted in thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, 2100 dead US military personnel, increased Islamic terrorism... I could go on and on...

All to punt a lame tinpot dictator off his throne...

It's really achieved nothing... that is, unless you're a right-wing simpleton... then it's apparently achieved so much more!
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cfalk
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:55 pm

1ST RESULT:
It ended a stalemate that was expensive in terms of lives lost, and was unsustainable militarily and politically. The U.N. sanctions led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, because even with the oil-for-food program, which we now know was completely corrupted, Saddam was still diverting massive funds for his own uses. The sanctions paused Saddam's WMD programs, but we now know they would have been instantly reactivated the moment the U.N. lifted the sanctions, which France, Russia and China were actively pushing for. Does anyone remember all the propaganda about how the sanctions were cruel and had to be removed? Removing sanctions with Saddam still in power would have put us all back to square one.

2ND RESULT:
There is now an Arab, Muslim nation with a constitutional democracy, at least on paper. It remains to be seen if that can be translated in practice to a functional democracy. The original intent of the invasion, according to neocon theory dating back to 1998, was to establish a democracy and see if that would seed reforms in other parts of the Arab world. Right now, Arabs from all over the Middle East are watching to see if democracy can work, and there is increasing pressure in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere to begin granting democratic rights. An Iraqi democracy is beginning to show fruit in that Arabs are beginning to realize that there is another option apart from their existing totalitarian regimes and the islamo-fascist movements that have challenged those regimes in the past 20 years, particularly in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The modern world needs to ensure that Iraq survives as such an example of a viable, Arab democracy. There are many people who do not wish to see this happen, particularly the islamo-fascists themselves, as well as non-democratic states outside Iraq who have no desire to see democracy in the region, and people in the west who wish to embarass certain political parties so that they can score political points in the next elections, even if it costs the hope of hundreds of millions of Arabs. These are the enemy of progress, and they need to be recognized for what they are.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
tbar220
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:29 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 13):
Great question. I guess that depends on your viewpoint. If you saw Saddam as a threat to the US, then the war eliminated a threat. If you didn't see him as a threat, the war has been mostly useless other than to help secure oil supplies, an important strategic resource.

Absolutely. I see it as your second point, and even there I feel we haven't really secured oil supplies. But on your first point, I believe this is hardly a debatable point (IMO). Sadaam was in power for 12 years after the first gulf war. The sanctions and inspections kept him in check, and inspectors repeatedly said that he wasn't harboring WMD's.

So what is a definition of a threat? It's now known he had no WMD's, perhaps the capability to produce them, but even that was extremely minimal.

It's also now known that Al Zarqawi wasn't even connected with Al Qaeda before the war in Iraq. Rumsfeld before the war was making this claim as the proof that Iraq was connected to terrorism. This weekend he went on the morning news talk shows and when questioned admitted that Zarqawi wasn't connected to Al Qaeda before the war. Sure Sadaam was giving Palestinian families of suicide bombers money, but wasn't this an Israeli problem? Is this a threat to the United States, something worth invading a country and starting a war over?

So in my opinion, Sadaam never was a threat to this country except for his occasional shooting at American planes. There never would be the threat of a "smoking gun in the form of a nuclear cloud".

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
people in the west who wish to embarass certain political parties so that they can score political points in the next elections, even if it costs the hope of hundreds of millions of Arabs. These are the enemy of progress, and they need to be recognized for what they are.

Ahhhh, the thinly disguised punch below the belt. Disagree with them, well just call them the unpatriotic, undemocratic enemies of progress...
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cfalk
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:19 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 17):
Disagree with them, well just call them the unpatriotic, undemocratic enemies of progress...

Where did I call them unpatriotic or undemocratic? Are you feeling a little tinge of guilt?  

The fact of life about politics is that some people are willing to put their own political interests ahead of the good of society. Some of them do so because they are too stupid to know better, but others know perfectly well what they are doing, and those are the people I dispise.

For example, Jesse Jackson is educated enough to know that the types of things he argues for will not help black americans, and will indeed ensure that black americans, generally speaking, remain a couple rungs below everyone else. He knows this but that is OK because as long as blacks see themselves as "disadvantaged", then many will continue to fund Jackson's lifestyle. Another example are fat cats like Ted Kennedy or George Soros who argue for higher taxes, but have all their money in Caribean banks where the IRS can't touch it.

This is my main beef with the left. The guys at the top have grown a habit of this sort of cynical behaviour, more so than the right. The right is pro-business and makes no excuses for it. The left pretends it is for poor people, but is actually more interested in making sure they stay poor.

In this case, they are saying that Iraq was a useless war, and we should cut our losses and run. They know that by doing so, they will simply be fullfilling their own prophesy, and ensuring that all that blood and treasure was spent for nothing. But that is a better result for them than allowing Iraq to actually work out well, thus vindicating Bush. They prefer to sacrifice the interests of nations and the lives of people in order to shame their political opponents, rather than actually work for the good of all, and let the chips fall where they may on election day.

Edit:
BTW, Republicans may do it less often than the left, but they have stooped to this sort of behaviour as well on occasion. For instance the Clinton blowjob episode was blown WAY out of proportion.

[Edited 2005-11-26 09:23:32]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
tbar220
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:28 pm

Really? So we're saying withdraw from Iraq just to spite Bush? Honestly, do you ever think a little deeper than that?

The "left" who is calling for a withdrawal and who are opposed to the war are a majority of the U.S. We're not calling for an immediate "cut and run" like you keep saying, we're calling for a planned withdrawal with approval from the military. Of course, nobody heard this part of what Murtha said, he just said "cut and run! cut and run! we're cowards!" (sarcasm)

We're saying withdraw because... well hell.... why don't you just read my previous posts. Where once did I say I want our troops to withdraw just to spite Bush? Maybe I want our troops to withdraw because I don't want any more of them to die and that this war is also killing thousands of helpless innocents as well.

Nope nope, its all just to spite Bush that's all. Seriously dude, why go after the messenger? Go after the message.
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cfalk
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 19):
Really? So we're saying withdraw from Iraq just to spite Bush? Honestly, do you ever think a little deeper than that?

No, I don't think YOU ever think deeper than that.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 19):
We're not calling for an immediate "cut and run" like you keep saying, we're calling for a planned withdrawal with approval from the military.

Leaving before the goal is accomplished is "cutting and running", even if it's done gradually to save a little face. If Iraq is not a sustainable democracy when the U.S. leaves, whether next week, next year or next decade, it will still be a failure and the left will be able to harp on about Bush starting a useless war.

If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that you DON'T want Iraq's new government to succeed, and you will be dissapointed if the insurgency starts dying down. I know you will deny it in public, but admit it to yourself.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 19):
The "left" who is calling for a withdrawal and who are opposed to the war are a majority of the U.S.

That's a natural reaction in the world of TV. TV ratings suck showing the new schools being built, the curriculums being taught, the improved utilities, etc. They are boring. But a good car bomb or an assassination is worth millions in advertising dollars.

If WWII had been fought with TV cameras on the front lines, I would bet that the war would have ended differently.

Here is the most telling evidence of this: The people who are the most opposed to finishing the job (apart from the ones with political goals) are those who have never been there and who only see what's on the news. But the re-enlistment rates for the troops in Iraq are record-setting. One of my high school buddies just came back from his 3rd tour there as a Marine and he says that he will go back. They know the dangers first-hand, but also see first hand the good that they are doing.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 19):
Maybe I want our troops to withdraw because I don't want any more of them to die and that this war is also killing thousands of helpless innocents as well.

If you are really interested in stopping the killing, why don't you push to stop the people who are doing the killing, like Zarqawi? You think he will stop killing if the U.S. pulls out?

I am reminded about a passage in "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". You remember the glasses that prevented from ever being afraid? As soon as something dangerous would appear, they would go completely black, preventing you from seeing the danger, and thus you won't be afraid. Your mind seems to operate along the same principles, if you really think that the U.S. or anyone else would be better off if the U.S. does not complete the job. Other than the fascists, that is.

[Edited 2005-11-26 11:33:07]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
It may be true that our economy is better because of the war

I disagree. GM just announced the layoff of 30,000 hourly workers with probably more to come and the closing of 9 U.S. plants. Delphi Corp. has gone bankrupt and a couple major airlines are not yet out of the woods. Oh, and we're still paying $2.50 for a gallon of gas here on the west coast. But, there was a major rush at area Wal*Mart stores on this, the busiest shopping day of the year. Maybe that's what you based your comment on.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:53 pm

Well, it racked up the US debt to record levels see http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

[Edited 2005-11-26 11:54:36]
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
seb146
Posts: 13764
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting Xjramper (Reply 8):
Yet, when we still have the finest brave men and women signing up for another tour in Iraq, this confuses me.

They are signing up again because there is nothing waiting for them back in the States. Funding for VA and post-military lives have been cut by the Republicans

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 11):
Their sons and daughters volunteered for the service. By this time virtually all the low ranking soldiers saliors and airmen knew exactly where they might end up when they enlisted. Those that have reupped knew as well.

Yes, those that have reupped knew where they were going, but the rush of enlistees immediatly following 9/11 thought they were going to fight a group called al-Qaida and a man named Osama bin Laden. Remember him? Remember the reason we were attacked? Remember that Iraq had nothing at all whatsoever to do with it?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
The modern world needs to ensure that Iraq survives as such an example of a viable, Arab democracy. There are many people who do not wish to see this happen, particularly the islamo-fascists themselves, as well as non-democratic states outside Iraq who have no desire to see democracy in the region

Correct me if I am wrong, but violence aside, isn't Iran a democracy? Isn't Jordan a democracy much like the Netherlands and England (King and queen and parlement)? More to the point, has anyone asked the people of countries like Syria, Barahin, Qatar, Yemen et al. if they really do want this or any brand of democracy? Why is it up to the neocons to force democracy on the world if it is not wanted or needed?

Besides, is the United States really safer since the invasion and occupation of Iraq? Just because the terror threat level goes up before an election, is the color orange really going to save us if al-Qaida strikes again? Is the economy really any better? Where were the National Guard troops to assist in the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita? If the war is so great for the economy, why are we in Oregon paying as much as $2.50 for gas? Why are we paying as much as $2 for eggs and $2.50 for a gallon of milk if the war is so great for the economy? If this war in Iraq is so great, why are there protests against it? Why do most of us in Portland get pissed off whenever we see the flags at half-staff on the Fremont Bridge letting us know another son or daughter from Oregon has been killed because there were no WMDs and no connection between Iraq and al-Qaida?

What has the war achieved? Death.

GO CANUCKS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 23):
Correct me if I am wrong, but violence aside, isn't Iran a democracy?

Only if the mullahs like the way the vote turns out. They have the final say and do not hesitate to override the vote of the people. A free press is also a useful thing in a real democracy.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that you DON'T want Iraq's new government to succeed, and you will be dissapointed if the insurgency starts dying down. I know you will deny it in public, but admit it to yourself.

Apparently you know me better than myself. I will say it again, I want the government to succeed and I want the insurgency to end, but not at the cost of thousands of American lives. Not with our troops there for another decade. I will not accept our troops dying in Iraq for another ten years to achieve some mystical "goal" or democracy. I will not accept thousands more dead American soldiers, even if it means that democracy doesn't take root in Iraq. Who comes first, Iraqis or Americans? As an American, I say the latter.

There's nothing wrong with accepting failure or admitting that we were wrong. We were wrong about WMD's and all the other hogwash. These were the reasons we went into war in the first place, and now our soldiers are stuck in Iraq because the administration keeps changing its mind about why we're there. I want a firm timetable, I want concrete steps taken. I think we need a change in leadership because the guys at the top right now are not only too corrupt but have no clue as to what's going on in Iraq.

There's complaining that the Democrats don't have a plan? Well Bush and Co. sure as hell don't either. I refuse to accept our troops there dying for another 5, 10, 20 years, etc.

The administration needs to define this "goal" once and for all, set forth a timetable, and have a serious debate about this with the legislators of BOTH parties participating. This stonewalling from the administration and the Republicans in congress is costing our troops lives while they play political games here at home. Enough of this crap.
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Gilligan
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 12):
problems we have right now around the world is that people view us as the aggressor, as the nation that blows up and kills thousands of people

I think there are a lot of people in Iraq that would disagree with you. I think they would like to see us out of there as quickly as possible to let them tend to their own affairs and I agree with them. Still I don't think they want us to leave until they can defend themselves.
[/quote]

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 12):
I'm talking about stuff like going around the world and having Americans teach English. Having American dollars building schools in impoverished Arab countries. Spread quality American television and radio to poor areas of the world.

There is no such thing as "quality American television". There are plenty of indigneous construction companies over there. Have them build the schools and send us the bill. English? That would be the worst mistake you could possibly make. Many people the world over already feel that we are imposing our culture and values system on them. If they want to come here they should have to know the language first. In their own country they should be free to either learn it or not.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 12):
Bush made a promise not to nation build, what happened to that promise?

Where has it changed? We have not imposed any form of government upon the Iraqi people.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 12):
And if we do stay, for how much longer? What does "stay the course" mean? 5, 10, 20 more years?

No, as stated by the Adminstration we will stay only until the Iraqis can fend for themselves. The Iraqis do not want us in their country any longer than that. Their security forces are being trained and are coming on line. Not fast enough for some but I'd rather stay a little longer and make sure they are trained and ready properly than have to go back again. These troops are not the same as the corrupt ARVNS of the 60's and 70's that would not fight to defend their country. These people stand in line even though they know it may cost them their life. How, as an American, can you not help a people like that get on their feet?

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 12):
Also, I don't care what China thinks if we leave Iraq.

You'd better because you can bet they are watching what we do. Part of the reason OBL felt imboldened to help the Somolia warlord was his observation that Americans will not tolerate casulties. If we were to cut and run in Iraq we would do nothing but re-enforce that opinion. You may believe we had no business going there, but we are there now and we need to get tough and stick it out till the Iraqis can handle the situation or we just set ourselves up for worse down the road.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:35 am

Results of Iraq War:

1. permanent military base in the Middle East for US forces (don't believe me: see Germany, Korea, Japan); could later prove useful to protect oil supply
2. tentative democracy; may or may not survive
3. record US deficit and national debt
4. 2000 US dead, 10000+ dead Iraqis
5. increased hostility towards US in many nations
6. reluctance to go to war again anytime soon (when it may be a real threat)
7. end of Saddam

I'm not sure if it's worth it, I do know that the administration wanted a regime change in Iraq from day one and either lied or was negligent about intelligence to justify it.

Quoting Xjramper (Reply 8):
I have come to the conclusion that the left wingers are invested in losing this war As it stands, the right wingers "need" to win this war. Vise versa for the liberals.

This is the ridiculous world of partisan politics that we live in. If people would get away from supporting 'left' or 'right' or a particular party blindly, like it was their favorite football team, you wouldn't have this situation where half the country, it seems, wants Bush and the Iraq adventure to fail.

I hope people can calmly weigh important issues like the Iraq War and not just parrot the party line - there ARE BOTH pros and cons to this war.

Cairo
 
tbar220
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
you wouldn't have this situation where half the country, it seems, wants Bush and the Iraq adventure to fail.

Again, where did you come up with this ridiculous assertion? Why would we WANT the Iraq war to fail? Why would we WANT more troops to die? I didn't say I WANT it to fail, I said I WANT our troops out of there within the next 6-12 months if possible. I was very clear on this, and somehow you translate this into the left wanting this war to fail.

Also, wanting Bush to fail? We don't want him to fail, he's already done this on his own time after time again on nearly every issue. Unless Bush is impeached, he will be president for three more years, so rather than WANT him to fail we put forth ideas and policies which he should and could possibly adopt which would be beneficial to our nation.

Don't make broad assertions and generalizations. You know what happens when you assume...
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Aviation
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 6):
Really? How would that be since when he became President everything went into trust? He can't trade stocks, bonds, or any other securities.



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
Please explain how.. Be sure to provide credible sources.

Well, as I believe he own's a large share of Lockheed martin for that war or as a result they have purchased a number of a/c in which bush gets a cut.
If I am greatly mistaken please inform me as this is just to my knowledge  Wink

Cheers,
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cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 28):
Again, where did you come up with this ridiculous assertion? Why would we WANT the Iraq war to fail? Why would we WANT more troops to die? I didn't say I WANT it to fail, I said I WANT our troops out of there within the next 6-12 months if possible.

That's the whole point. It comes down to the old rule that the only way to guarantee failure is to refuse to try in the first place.

If you want to bail from Iraq now, you are refusing to try, and thus are guaranteed to fail. If you want a strict timetable for leaving, you are willing to try, but only halfheartedly. If you want to succeed and give yourself the maximum probability of doing so, you have to focus on the goal, and not let timetables get in the way.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Aviation (Reply 29):
Well, as I believe he own's a large share of Lockheed martin for that war or as a result they have purchased a number of a/c in which bush gets a cut.

His holdings, if he has any, are in trust. He cannot buy or sell shares. On the same token it would be very unfair and a lot to ask of someone to divest themselves of all their holdings for a job that might only last 4 years. On top of that, Congress buys the planes, not the President. Yes he might have indirect influence through DOD but he would be setting himself up for one hell of a scandal if he did. I don't believe he could have pulled that off without someone in the press figuring it out and splashing it all over the front page.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
B707321C
Posts: 168
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:48 am

The world in more dangerous now than ever. Where are those WMD today?. The US didn't find them, but knew Iraq had them. It can only be two answers.

1) Iraq sold them to other dictators because they needed money.

2) The WMD was stolen/taken by terrorist in the power vacuum before the US/UK got control.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting B707321C (Reply 32):
Where are those WMD today?.

Lybia turned them over to us.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Boeing757/767
Posts: 2179
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:48 am

Another achievement of the war:

It took the focus off finding a mass-murderer in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan who actually had something to do with 9/11 -- a move that would have gained widespread support.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
Ok, this is a serious question. I'm going to put forth some points here. What has this war achieved?

Positive:

-We did get rid of a violent, brutal dictator. I always maintained, even before the war that his ability to cause problems beyond his borders was almost nonexistent, but be that as it may, the world is certainly better with him behind bars.

-The overall performance of our men and women in uniform. I do not agree with the political decision that sent them into this situation, but I think they've handled a very difficult situation with as much honor and dignity as any armed force could be asked to put forth. You have your numnuts and bad apples-all military establishments do-but I'm very proud with the service and effort they have put forth to make the best out of a situation that should never have been undertaken by their ultimate boss.


Negatives:

-We got rid of Saddam, but in it's place, we introduced another brand of violence and misery equally as appalling to Iraq. Don't give me this shit "well, at least they died free". I don't buy that. The deaths of those Iraqi's and Americans from terrorism and guerilla warfare serve no purpose, and I don't think those that have died, nor their families, give thanks that Saddam didn't kill them.

-The loss of American credibility: Again, don't hand me the line that the rest of the world agreed with the intel on the war. Our credibility and good name has suffered a blow that will take a decade or longer to recover because if the fact the intel was false; of the fact that we have a president who obviously wanted this war from the day he was elected, be damned the world; of the fact that he has bulled friends abroad and the loyal opposition at home and spat on them at every chance; of the fact he and his adminstration continues to be blinded to the long-term problems of this conflict.

We lost respect, credibility, and a good chunk of our good name, by invading a weak, helpless, almost defenseless nation. We lost it when we declared it over 3 months after the fighting started, and found out soon after we really had not planned at all as to what to do beyond taking Baghdad. We lost it because of the smug arrogance of this president.

-Opening up a whole new front in terrorism. Mr. Bush said, before the war, that this conflict would be about terrorism. It wasn't the truth, but he got his wish. Thanks to his actions, and his decision, Iraq is now a hotbed of terrorism, and has inflamed even more the Arab and Muslim world against us. It was inflamed already, and if didn't think that invading an Arab nation would incite more of the same, well, then he and his lieutenants didn't think things through very well, did they?

-The President losing the trust of the American people. This president ran on the very notion that he could be trusted, that he would tell the truth. And for almost 5 years, people bought it, and believed this president for the most part, even if they didn't agree with his policies. Now, we have a president that is no longer trusted by a majority of the citizens, and who is not believed by those citizens when he enunciates his policies, and that's a tragedy for both him, as president, and for the American people.

Once a president loses the trust of the American people, it's damn near impossible for him to get it back. That's never a good thing.

We have a president who, specifically, made it a point of his first campaign for President, in response to the problems in the Balkins and Africa, would NEVER send out troops to nation build, and yet the major event of his administration has been nation-building, or attempting to do so, in Iraq. President Bush should have taken the advice of Candidate Bush. He didn't, and it's meant the loss of 2100 fine Americans, the loss of our prestige, and possibly the ruination of his presidency.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
the rest of the world agreed with the intel on the war.

OK, I won't hand you the documented truth if you don't want it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
We lost it because of the smug arrogance of this president.

Does that mean that Truman lost Korea because of his smug arrogance that the Red Chinese would never dare stick their noses into that fight? A fight that still has no end, just an armistice that is over 50 years old? An armistice that has kept our troops in that country for over 50 years?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
Opening up a whole new front in terrorism.

Would your rather fight them over there or over here? We were going to have to fight them sometime. If not in Iraq, then in Afghansitan, or in New York. Take your pick the fight was on.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
The President losing the trust of the American people.

If the American people had been fed a steady diet of trumped up bad news during WW2 the way they have in this war, FDR would have lost in 1944.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
would NEVER send out troops to nation build, and yet the major event of his administration has been nation-building,

How many times did President Bush or Vice President Cheney even mention Iraq before 9/11 and the start of the war on terror? I can't recall a single event. Post 9/11 when the war was on Saddam became part of the bigger picture. We have fought multi front wars before on a much bigger scale than this, why don't you think we can do it now?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
Our credibility and good name has suffered a blow that will take a decade or longer to recover

That will last only as long as some country doesn't need our help somehow. Then all of the sudden we will be their bestest buddies. I've got a good idea on how to get some extra money for the war effort. Stop giving any foreign aid to any country that has bad mouthed us over Iraq. You want to see a tune change real quick? That would do it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
I always maintained, even before the war that his ability to cause problems beyond his borders was almost nonexistent,

Bet you said the same about Kaddafi right up to the point Pan Am 103 blew up.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):
we introduced another brand of violence and misery equally as appalling to Iraq.

I don't believe this. If a roadside bomb blows up and kills ten Iraqis in Baghdad, a city of 5 MILLION, how many Iraqis do you think even know what happened until they turn on the news that night or next morning? We have neighborhoods in this country that would probably scare the living daylights out any Iraqi we brought over here they are so violent. You act as if every Iraqi is running bent over from cover to cover to avoid getting shot or blown up and that is just simply not true. It's that kind of reporting that has the situation in Iraq so misunderstood. Thank God for someone like Sen Joe Liberman. At least someone from the other side has the courage to tell the truth about what is going on over there. Of course the press has ignored him.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:17 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 36):
If not in Iraq, then in Afghansitan, or in New York.

What was wrong with fighting the terrorists where they were in Afghanistan? Why open up another front when the mission wasn't even accomplished yet in Afghanistan?

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 36):
If the American people had been fed a steady diet of trumped up bad news during WW2 the way they have in this war, FDR would have lost in 1944.

You can't base your argument on fallacy, on a hypothetical situation from over sixty years ago, its not sound debate.
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Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 36):

Little Buddy, part of the shrinking number of the wilfully blinded to what's going on. The Lord gave him eyes, but he just refuses to see.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:30 pm

What has it achieved...hmmm....that anyone who has opposed the war regardless of their right to do so is un-American and deserves to be treated with justifiable contempt. Quite the accomplishment. sigh 
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
Little Buddy, part of the shrinking number of the wilfully blinded to what's going on. The Lord gave him eyes, but he just refuses to see.

No, I just feel sorry for any country that is now in the throws of a tyrannical leader. Because from now on, no matter how many threats he may make, until that maniac decides to actually blow up a dirty bomb in Detroit or send over people infected with a newly developed strain of airborne ebola to our country, no President will ever dare try and help those people out because he/she will remember how badly this President was treated for trying to prevent that. Of course after that event people like Falcon, Tbar220, and others will be crying boodly hell about why the President didn't have some sort of omnimpotent 6th sense to see it coming and do something about it.

They'll believe the press when they come up with the scantiest bit of evidence from two diverse sources and say Ahha, we were able to piece this together after the fact, why couldn't they do it before. Of course when the press reports something that turns out to be false and someone gets killed it just freedom of the press, when a President accepts intelligence that is presented by his intelliegence agency as fact and that later turns out to be wrong he is somehow a lying bastard that ought to be run out of town on a rail by people that never liked him anyway. I just wonder if when this is over and our troops are coming home if you will have the courage to come back on this board and say "Oops, guess I was wrong."
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 40):
Of course after that event people like Falcon, Tbar220, and others will be crying boodly hell about why the President didn't have some sort of omnimpotent 6th sense to see it coming and do something about it.

Do you know who General Shinseki is? He was saying before the war that if we wanted to secure the country and leave it as quickly as possible, we needed at least 300,000 troops. He was forced to retire in 2003 as Army Chief of staff after his comments conflicted with what Rumsfeld was saying.

This is just one example. Thousands of people knew and saw that what was going to happen in Iraq was going to be bad. There weren't going to be enough troops as evidenced by the looting after we toppled Sadaam. The country has never truly recovered since that day. Military advisors were telling Rumsfeld and Bush that there was a problem, there weren't enough troops and they didn't have the proper equipment.

You want to talk about an "omnipotent 6th sense"? How about the commanders and officers on the ground who were telling us all this stuff?
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FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 41):
Do you know who General Shinseki is? He was saying before the war that if we wanted to secure the country and leave it as quickly as possible, we needed at least 300,000 troops. He was forced to retire in 2003 as Army Chief of staff after his comments conflicted with what Rumsfeld was saying.

Do you know who General William Tecumseh Sherman is? In 1861, he requested 200,000 troops. He was deemed "crazy" and the Secretary of War relieved him of his command.

Is this a good example of why the Civil War shouldn't have been fought?

[Edited 2005-12-01 18:26:12]
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:57 am

Another slanted blog using up bandwidth...

Although it wasn't the immediate intentions of the United States, we did give a country that was under a dictatorship, a chance to be a free nation...something that is pissed away daily on this site.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 43):
Although it wasn't the immediate intentions of the United States, we did give a country that was under a dictatorship, a chance to be a free nation...something that is pissed away daily on this site.

Well, unfortunately, dude, it's just not ours to "give" whenever the hell we want, is it? The war wasn't based on the premise of "giving" anyone freedom. It was based on weapons that, beyond any doubt of anyone other then a self-deluding, blind fool, can see aren't there and weren't, when the war started.

What is pissed away are countless American and Iraqi lives, now being lost to try and justify George Bush's blunder, and to try and save his posterity. Maybe you think that's worth fighting for, but more and more Americans don't.

We have to stay not because we owe it to George Bush; not because we even owe it to the 2100 fine Americans who have died there fighting a war that shouldn't have been fought: but because we owe a debt of honor to the Iraqi people for violating their soverignty and taking over their nation.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
DrDeke
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that you DON'T want Iraq's new government to succeed, and you will be dissapointed if the insurgency starts dying down. I know you will deny it in public, but admit it to yourself.

BULLSHIT. I don't know a single person who doesn't want Iraq's new government to succeed or who doesn't want the insurgency to die off. The problem is that if you pay attention, you will notice that neither of these things seem to be happening yet. Furthermore, nobody in the government has given the public any kind of coherent plan for making either one of them happen other than the plan that is "to keep doing what we've been doing." Obviously this plan has not been working, so I cannot blame anyone for calling for a different plan.

I guess you can blame them, though. You do it by calling them traitors for pointing out that what we are doing isn't working and asking for alternatives.

-DrDeke
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tbar220
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 42):
Do you know who General William Tecumseh Sherman is? In 1861, he requested 200,000 troops. He was deemed "crazy" and the Secretary of War relieved him of his command.

Is this a good example of why the Civil War shouldn't have been fought?

How is this at all relevant? I'm talking about the chief of staff of the Army before the Iraq war. He said we needed more troops, and was basically fired for it.
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FDXmech
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 46):
How is this at all relevant?

It's relevant because Sherman was fired for the same thing in 1861.
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Gilligan
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RE: What Has The Iraq War Achieved?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 41):
How about the commanders and officers on the ground who were telling us all this stuff?

The commanders on the ground have all said that they have recieved everything they need to accomplish the mission at hand. The "looting" you refer to was just incredibly bad reporting on par with "tens of thousands" of deaths or "hundreds" dead in the superdome. Once again, wave after wave of nothing but negative reporting by a sorry press corp has led to all kinds of misconceptions and misunderstandings.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 41):
The country has never truly recovered since that day.

The latest polls from the people LIVING in Iraq would tend to disagree with your assumption.
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