satx
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McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:46 pm

McCartney attacks China over fur
By Adrian Addison
BBC Six O'clock News

Quote:
Sir Paul McCartney has vowed never to perform in China after seeing horrific undercover footage of dogs and cats being killed for their fur.

The former Beatle also said he would boycott the 2008 Beijing Olympics after viewing the footage taken in a fur market in Guangzhou, southern China.

The film shows animals being thrown from a bus, and into boiling water.

A Chinese official said boycotts were not justified, and blamed US and European consumers for buying the fur.

In the film, dogs and cats packed by the dozen into wire cages little bigger than lobster pots are pictured being thrown from the top deck of a converted bus onto concrete pavements.

The screaming animals, many with their paws now smashed from the fall, are then lifted out with long metal tongs and thrown over a seven foot fence.

Some are senselessly beaten by laughing and smiling workers.

All are then killed and skinned for their fur - many are believed still to be alive as their skins are peeled away.

Man, that's just plain sick. Every time I think we've come so far, I'm reminded of how little some things have changed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4476664.stm
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SpinalTap
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:17 pm

I am not for cruelty to animals but I care what happens to humans infinitely more. The fact the China executes political prisoners is far more concerning to me. Is Paul McCartney must be really that ignorant.

In my opinion awarding the 2008 Olympics to China is akin to giving Hitler the 1936 ones. A chance for propaganda.

We have a channel in my region of New Zealand that play CCTV international (I don't know what the initials stand for but I would call it Chinese Communist TV). You wouldn't believe their censored coverage of President Hu Jin-Tao's visit to London. Completely edited out that there were Free Tibet protesters. Also there coverage of President Bush's visit to China made it seem President Bush had only glowing tributes to make to China when he had infact also raised China's poor record on human rights.
"I get what they call a stipend, a stipend is like money but its such as small amount they don't really call it money"
 
slider
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:08 am

If fur is McCartney's sole concern with China, then he's as naive and stupid as he is irrelevant.
 
Banco
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 2):
If fur is McCartney's sole concern with China, then he's as naive and stupid as he is irrelevant.

Quite. But McCartney is something of an extremist, part of the "meat is murder" campaign. It's par for the course.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
satx
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Con

Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:35 am

It's quite true that China's human rights are absolutely terrible. However, humans have the ability to impact the decisions of other humans. They can even put their own lives at great risk to right the wrongs of their era and make the lives of future generations better. Animals don't really have that capability, they just have to take whatever we do to them without having any way of impacting it, so my compassion toward them is even greater than toward fellow humans.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
777236ER
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:23 am

How many animals are slaughtered in the UK for food? Food or fur, it doesn't really matter if they feed us or clothe us does it? Apparently it does.

As others have mentioned, China has an appauling human rights record. The fact that McCartney sees fit to focus on the plight of cats and dogs speaks volumes about him.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
slider
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 4):
Animals don't really have that capability, they just have to take whatever we do to them without having any way of impacting it, so my compassion toward them is even greater than toward fellow humans.

I understand what you're saying in terms of being 'defenseless', but respectfully disagree that animals should get more compassion than humans. Humanity should be respected above any other life force on the planet- we are, to the chagrin of the radical left, the supreme species on earth.

That doesn't mean we should exploit animals in cruel means, quite the opposite actually. I believe in conservation and responsible behaviors with wildlife and species protection, but don't believe animals should be accorded any MORE rights or compassion than people. No way.
 
satx
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Con

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
I understand what you're saying in terms of being 'defenseless', but respectfully disagree that animals should get more compassion than humans.

The laws and society itself are telling us that treating animals poorly is okay. So, why are you concerned that animals might ever get more respect than humans? Has that ever happened? If your life is in danger you're allowed to kill any animal that's threatening you on the spot (fine with me). If you can find some way to kill or harm animals for profit, in many cases you're free to do as you please (not fine with me). If you just like killing and maiming animals for sport, well, have at it (really not fine with me). The unfounded fear that humans will ever be respected less than other life forms is incomprehensible to me. It simply will never happen.

Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
Humanity should be respected above any other life force on the planet- we are, to the chagrin of the radical left, the supreme species on earth.

No life form (outside of bacteria, viruses, and the like) has any chance of taking us down a notch. We are the supreme rulers of the entire earth without any rivals whatsoever. So, unless you just really like rooting for sure-winner over the eternal underdog, well, I just don't see your point. The very fact that we're already the "supreme species" is exactly why I feel that most other life forms deserve our protection.



Edited for typo.

[Edited 2005-11-29 00:08:50]
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
777236ER
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
We are the supreme rulers of the entire earth without any rivals whatsoever.

Actually, viruses are by far the most advanced form of life in the universe.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
RichardPrice
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:14 am

China is a biiiiiiiig country, with enough internal politically different geographical regions that some could conceivably be called different countries.

The western world isnt pure and innocent, we didnt get where we are today without going through similiar periods of abuse and cruelty, so why deride a country that has changed massively over the past 15 years and continues to change.

You dont get anywhere by constantly beating the baby (thats not a euphamism).
 
Derico
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:47 am

Do people actually buy fur from cats and dogs??? Is the Chinese official being serious?

Or maybe they got a tip Cruella DeVille was going on a shopping spree...
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:15 am

I'm no fan of China, but really: who gives a damn about McCartney ?

" Oh, I won't give a concert here ! I'll take my 12 string and go home !"

Oh-oh-oh. What a ( Yawn !) crushing blow. We shall cry ourselves to sleep.

Hai Yu ! Hurry up with those dogs !
gene
 
slider
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
The laws and society itself are telling us that treating animals poorly is okay.

Not really- there are plenty of animal protection laws. Most of the animals killed today are for food sources and are grown for that purpose.

The funny thing is that, at least from my perspective, those who hunt, fish and engage in the outdoors are the ones who are the most responsible to animals. Hunters may kill for sport, but are not cruel or malicious to animals.

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
The unfounded fear that humans will ever be respected less than other life forms is incomprehensible to me. It simply will never happen.

Already has- the penalty for killing a bald eagle fledgling is greater than killing a human baby. And we're subjected in the pop culture to the continuing anthropomorphic humanization of animals, via Disney or what have you.

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
The very fact that we're already the "supreme species" is exactly why I feel that most other life forms deserve our protection.

To this point, I agree. That's not in dispute in my book- hence my stance on conservation and being a responsible outdoorsman. I think most people are balanced on this issue, and the outdoors-folk probably the most responsible than regular folks.
 
L-188
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:45 am

Note to Paul.

If you want to discuss cruelity, then lets not degrade another society, but discuss cruelty inflicted on an entire planet....I.E.....Wings.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
globetrekker
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
China is a biiiiiiiig country, with enough internal politically different geographical regions that some could conceivably be called different countries.

Ain't that the thruth! Up to last month I was trekking in China; Beijing, Xi'an, Guangzhou, Wuhan and Shanghai and many more places...........

Each region is so different from each other. I saw many restaurants where dog and cat were part of the menu.... and then you get to a place like Shanghai what is really super modern city.
Big differences throughout China.

Globe Trekker / AUA
The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
 
sean1234
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 8):
Actually, viruses are by far the most advanced form of life in the universe.

A virus being life is debatable.

I put in my vote for humans as the supreme being. We can kill any virus, though if it is in a person you have to kill that person. A virus does not have the ability to choose battles as we do, so in that sense we are superior.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:19 pm

Call me naive, but I have yet to see anyone in the west wear a coat made of dog or catskin. Is it being passed off as mink, or are they being used in Chanel knock-offs?

Still, there are more humane ways to slaughter, but this whole thing seems like a storm in a teapot, especially coming from someone who buys live lobsters in supermarkets and releases them back into the sea...

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
KevinL1011
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:40 pm

So......I wonder If Paul has a leather jacket? leather upholstery? Shoes? Belt?
Slaughter cows?...well OK. Dogs? Cats? You Barbarian!
Where do we draw the line?
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
TNboy
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:44 pm

Boycotting the Olympics as well, I see.

Damn!! There goes a couple of certain US gold medals.  goldmedal   goldmedal 

Cheers
Bill
"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
 
satx
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 17):
So......I wonder If Paul has a leather jacket? leather upholstery? Shoes? Belt? Slaughter cows?...well OK. Dogs? Cats? You Barbarian!
Where do we draw the line?

He's apparently has the conscience (and he definitely has the money) to live fairly close to his ideals. My guess is that he's much less of a hypocrite than most of us.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
slider
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
He's apparently has the conscience (and he definitely has the money) to live fairly close to his ideals. My guess is that he's much less of a hypocrite than most of us.

Maybe. maybe not.

But just like the Hollywood celebs who preach about the environment but drive SUVs, I'm sure McCartney is hardly walking the walk to the degree some might think.

I met Linda McCartney once- hell of a nice lady, but geez, a crazy vegan wacko.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
But just like the Hollywood celebs who preach about the environment but drive SUVs, I'm sure McCartney is hardly walking the walk to the degree some might think.

Perhaps, but as no one in this thread seems to have any evidence to the contrary, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt. How would you like it (not you personally, Slider, just in general) if you claimed to stand for something, and others said you were a hypocrite without even bothering to look into it?

I don't agree with McCartney's approach, but it doesn't follow that we should suggest he's a liar and a hypocrite.

JL
Next flight.... who knows.
 
luv2fly
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:21 am

Paul's new wife feels very passionately about this, she was stalking JLo I thought about her being photographed in fur and using it in her clothing line. I do not ever believe in cruelity to cats and dogs by any means, though this is not the UK or the USA! We are talking about a third world country.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
tbar220
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):

Already has- the penalty for killing a bald eagle fledgling is greater than killing a human baby.

I don't think I believe this. Do you have some sort of proof of this?
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slider
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 21):
Perhaps, but as no one in this thread seems to have any evidence to the contrary, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Fair enough- good point, Jean.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 23):
I don't think I believe this. Do you have some sort of proof of this?

16 USC 1561.

http://www.gcel.noaa.gov/schedules/6-ESA/EnadangeredSpeciesAct.pdf

http://www.fws.gov/laws/lawsdigest/esact.html

Penalties for killing protected wildlife.

Note there isn't a penalty for abortion as it's legal. It's OK to murder an unborn child, but you can't kill a bald eagle in its shell. Yeah, that makes loads of sense.
 
halls120
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 1):
I am not for cruelty to animals but I care what happens to humans infinitely more. The fact the China executes political prisoners is far more concerning to me. Is Paul McCartney must be really that ignorant.

Agreed, and in addition, is Paul McCartney's ego so inflated that he thinks the mere act of refusing to perform in China is some world-shaking event?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
tbar220
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:12 pm

Slider,

Ok, you should have clarified you meant an unborn fetus. That's a whole discussion about abortion that I don't want to go into in this thread.

I don't think that killing an eagle gets you a harsher penalty over the killing of a born baby.
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mrmeangenes
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RE: McCartney Attacks China Over Fur & Vows No Concert

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:22 am

Lou Dobbs of CNN commented on this the other night. He said (in effect) it was pretty trivial to boycott a country for its treatment of animals-and totally ignore that country's horrendous treatment of its own citizens.

I thought he had a rather good point !
gene

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