dragon-wings
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US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:03 pm

Spain agreed to sell 12 military planes and 8 patrol boat to Venezuela, and the US threatened to block the deal

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americ...1/28/venezuela.spain.ap/index.html

Can someone explain to me why the US is sticking it's nose in this deal? According to the article these are cargo planes and patrol boats! Seems to me the US is trying to stir up trouble.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
MDorBust
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting Dragon-wings (Thread starter):
Can someone explain to me why the US is sticking it's nose in this deal? According to the article these are cargo planes and patrol boats! Seems to me the US is trying to stir up trouble.

First paragraph....

"The State Department repeated reservations about the sale because the planes and boats carry U.S. parts and technology... "
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AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Dragon-wings (Thread starter):
Can someone explain to me why the US is sticking it's nose in this deal?

Did you even read the article you linked? The U.S. has the right to control where technology developed in this country is exported and licensed. It's all just politics aimed at the Castro clone. Big deal.
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dragon-wings
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:13 pm

I did, but these are just cargo and patrol stuff. I can understand if it was tanks or a missle or something like that.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
L-188
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:13 pm

And I would remind you that Franco wanna-be Chavez has allready threatened to sell US military technology he already has to China and Cuba.

Don't you think if you where the US you would concerned too.

It is the electronics on the boats I am most worried about. As mentioned the CASA 295's are cargo birds but there are some C-235 patrol planes that might also pose export problems.
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dragon-wings
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:15 pm

I see your points, but when it said cargo and patrol stuff I didn't think it was that big of a deal.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 5):
when it said cargo and patrol stuff I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

Ring up the Chinese Embassy--see if they'll sell one of these birds to you stock:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8mpa.asp

Remind them you're from the U.S. Don't cheat now.
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MD-90
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:26 pm

We spend more on war than the next six nations combined. Our paranoid, dominatrix fedgov ought to look after the welfare and liberty of its own subjects before criticizing a country that sells a lot of oil to the US of A.
 
F9Widebody
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:38 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 7):
before criticizing a country that sells a lot of oil to the US of A.

Are you familiar with what has been going on with Chavez lately?

This is about far more than oil.
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KevinL1011
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:16 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
It is the electronics on the boats I am most worried about. As mentioned the CASA 295's are cargo birds but there are some C-235 patrol planes that might also pose export problems.

Remember when it was illegal to sell the Playstation II in some countries? Look for Venezuelan agents fighting for X-Box360's at Best Buy!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Ring up the Chinese Embassy--see if they'll sell one of these birds to you stock:

This is a good point! If Venezuela wants technology, the Chinese will gladly sell them missile guidance systems. The problem is...translating the instruction manuals from Chinese to Spanish. I purchased some video capture cards from a Chinese manufacturer and I can tell you that there is NO WAY to learn how to install and configure these video cards other than trial and error. This is not from one experience. I also purchased several video cameras from other vendors in China and unless you know what you're doing, forget it. Then what about spare parts?

If the U.S. Gov. didn't make an issue, they loose technological exclusivity in the eyes of the manufacturers. If my company manufactured a system being sold to Spain, then sold to Venezuela, I would need to consider how important are U.S. Gov. contracts to my business. It's kind of a shot across the bow.
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RichardPrice
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:11 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Did you even read the article you linked? The U.S. has the right to control where technology developed in this country is exported and licensed..

Not once its out of their hands they dont. Its owned by someone else now, the US cant do anything about it except bitch and moan.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:37 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 10):
Its owned by someone else now, the US cant do anything about it except bitch and moan.

I believe you're incorrect on that point. When a sale is made on restricted items, the buyer certifies it won't resell it to a third party on the non-authorized list. My interpretation of the rules is open to discussion, however, since I'm not in the arms dealing business myself.
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RichardPrice
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):

I believe you're incorrect on that point. When a sale is made on restricted items, the buyer certifies it won't resell it to a third party on the non-authorized list. My interpretation of the rules is open to discussion, however, since I'm not in the arms dealing business myself.

Such agreements only give an illusion of control since the items are still out of your ownership, and resale agreements can become essentially null and void with changes of government. How are you going to enforce such agreements besides not dealing with the respective countries again? Bitch and moan, as thats all they can do.

As I mentioned in my point, the US has no inherent *right* to control resales once its out of their ownership - want to retain the rights? Dont sell.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:50 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 12):
As I mentioned in my point, the US has no inherent *right* to control resales once its out of their ownership - want to retain the rights? Dont sell.

If it's part of the sales agreement, yes, the U.S. would have the ability to control resales. Just like any other country that sells arms, such as the U.K.
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Pyrex
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:54 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
As mentioned the CASA 295's are cargo birds but there are some C-235 patrol planes that might also pose export problems.

I believe you can buy CN235s as civilian planes so whatever technology there is there cannot possibly be sensitive (I am talking about the cargo version here, not the maritime patrol one).
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RichardPrice
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
If it's part of the sales agreement, yes, the U.S. would have the ability to control resales.

As I said, thats just the illusion of control not the ability. You still havent mentioned how these agreements are set in stone, unchanging and unable to be broken. The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore. They might be refused further sales, but it affects in no way the physical ability to sell the current items.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore.

As I said, I'm not an arms dealer, but what I stated is my understanding of how the sales agreements work. If you have issues with that, you may always bring up a copy of a typical sales agreement to challenge my beliefs. Have at it.
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RichardPrice
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:08 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
As I said, I'm not an arms dealer, but what I stated is my understanding of how the sales agreements work. If you have issues with that, you may always bring up a copy of a typical sales agreement to challenge my beliefs. Have at it.

A sales agreement is some text on a bit of paper. Regardless of the wording of the document, how is it going to physically prevent me from selling something covered under that agreement? Such an action may jepordise my future purchases from you, but you could decide to do that anyway - agreement or not.

Agreements are only good as long as both parties abide by them.

Remember, there are no international courts where these agreements are valid so legal action would have to be taken in the country breaking the agreement. Or the US could just bomb Spain right now to destroy the items in question.

I agree with you entirely, there are probably clauses in a sales agreement that may forbid sales to certain countries. My point is that such clauses can easily be ignored.
 
KevinL1011
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:09 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore. They might be refused further sales, but it affects in no way the physical ability to sell the current items.



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
When a sale is made on restricted items, the buyer certifies it won't resell it to a third party on the non-authorized list

You're both correct. The difference is the sales CONTRACT and with whom?
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
My point is that such clauses can easily be ignored.

Of course they can be ignored. That's what Spain is attempting to do right now, apparently, that prompted the protest from the U.S. the OP has an issue with.
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satx
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:28 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 9):
I purchased some video capture cards from a Chinese manufacturer and I can tell you that there is NO WAY to learn how to install and configure these video cards other than trial and error. This is not from one experience. I also purchased several video cameras from other vendors in China and unless you know what you're doing, forget it.

You can buy a dirt-cheap video capture card or a fancy brand name capture card and they'll both come from China. You can buy a dirt-cheap video camera or a fancy brand name video camera and they'll both come from China. You can even buy a dirt-cheap no-name mp3 player or you can buy an iPod and they'll both come from China. You only get to pick which Chinese product you want; there is rarely any non-Chinese option. If you don't believe me then maybe you should start reading the product stickers more closely.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 10):
Not once its out of their hands they dont. Its owned by someone else now, the US cant do anything about it except bitch and moan.

No problem. Bitching about the actions of others is what our government does best.  Big grin
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luisde8cd
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:29 pm

The US is worried about Chavez's military shopping spree? I think it is too late to be worried...

Chavez has already wasted taxpayers money in Russia when he bought around 20 Mi-24 choppers and 100,000 AK-47 rifles. This patrol planes aren't a threat, compared with those rifles and choppers, especially the rifles that could EASILY fall into Colombia guerrillas hands just across the border.

Also, Venezuela complained to Spain when Colombia announced that they would buy second hand tanks from Spain. After the complaint, Spain announced the cancellation of the deal. Impressive, huh? I think Chavez is becoming a growing menace day by day...

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
KevinL1011
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 20):
If you don't believe me then maybe you should start reading the product stickers more closely.

And your point is....?
I knew what I was purchasing and how to use it. What "product stickers" are you referring to? You obviously don't buy direct from the mfgr.
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 22):
I knew what I was purchasing and how to use it. What "product stickers" are you referring to? You obviously don't buy direct from the mfgr.

Chances are neither do you, OEMs generally dont sell to the public or in quantities less than that required to fill shipping containers. OEMs also generally dont do the packaging or instructions, thats value added by the bulk reseller.

Even OEMs like LG that do sell direct to the consumer have their own internal reseller and purchasing department as a buffer between the manufacturing side and the retail side.
 
KevinL1011
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 23):
Chances are neither do you, OEMs generally dont sell to the public or in quantities less than that required to fill shipping containers.

Well, I got "Samples" and they avoid FTC scrutiny. I'm not exactly "the public".
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
satx
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 24):
Well, I got "Samples" and they avoid FTC scrutiny. I'm not exactly "the public".

You apparently scrapped the bottom of the barrel and ended up with crud. What exactly did you expect, and why do you think your experience has anything to do with the topic at hand?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
KevinL1011
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 25):
You apparently scrapped the bottom of the barrel and ended up with crud. What exactly did you expect, and why do you think your experience has anything to do with the topic at hand?

I got what I expected and I knew what I was getting. My point is...Venezuela can get technology from China as well as Spain. The barrier is, Chinese technology is not easily understood or implemented by non-Chinese (myself included). Spain, on the other hand, can easily install and implement weapon technology in Venezuela or Columbia (as stated by Luisde8cd) so.... the US must call Spain to task.

Quoting SATX (Reply 20):
You only get to pick which Chinese product you want; there is rarely any non-Chinese option. If you don't believe me then maybe you should start reading the product stickers more closely.

Again...your point is?
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 26):
I got what I expected and I knew what I was getting. My point is...Venezuela can get technology from China as well as Spain. The barrier is, Chinese technology is not easily understood or implemented by non-Chinese (myself included). Spain, on the other hand, can easily install and implement weapon technology in Venezuela or Columbia (as stated by Luisde8cd) so.... the US must call Spain to task.

Sony, Lenovo, Acer, Dell and lots and lots of others seem to have absolutely no problems understanding or implementing Chinese technology.

Considering the only parts in a modern computer not made in China or Taiwan (mostly China these days with lower labour costs) is the CPU. Memory, hard disks, motherboards, graphics cards and most other things are made in China and computer resellers dont seem to have any problems.

The truth is that Venezuela cant buy weapons technology from China, because China is buying not selling.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:15 pm

Concerning aircraft technology, about every aircraft (maybe with the exception of older Russian types) contains parts from all over the world, so these CASA aircraft will probably contain some hydraulic pumps, switches or even standard avionics manufactured in the US. So the US can virtually ban every aviation producvt worldwide from being sold to countries the American government doesn't like on the grounds that they contain American technology.

I remember that back in the 1980s it was illegal to sell a Commodore VC-20 computer to East Germany.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
KevinL1011
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 27):
resellers dont seem to have any problems.

Exactly. They know what they're getting and how to use it.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 27):
The truth is that Venezuela cant buy weapons technology from China, because China is buying not selling.

China has missle technology. They got it from the Russians. North Korea has it too. China sold it to them.
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:37 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 29):
China has missle technology. They got it from the Russians. North Korea has it too. China sold it to them.

Then there's always this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom

I still flinch a bit when having to decide on a product and Toshiba is on the short list.
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dl021
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
The items dont cease to exist when the purchasing nation decides not to stick to the agreement anymore.

As I said, I'm not an arms dealer, but what I stated is my understanding of how the sales agreements work. If you have issues with that, you may always bring up a copy of a typical sales agreement to challenge my beliefs. Have at it.

You are correct. The US government can exercise de jure as well as de facto control over exports that contain US tech and US exported goods. Look at the times Saab, IAI and others have to ask for US permission to export their aircraft and missile tech.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
A sales agreement is some text on a bit of paper. Regardless of the wording of the document, how is it going to physically prevent me from selling something covered under that agreement? Such an action may jepordise my future purchases from you, but you could decide to do that anyway - agreement or not.

Well, since you are implying that governments and people should ignore written agreements in commerce, then I'll share with you what consequences could come. The Spanish Air Force uses F-18s. US products. The Spanish navy uses AV-8Bs and SH-60s. There's more but let's take these products....they ignore our deal and we cut off all spare parts and service to these products thus crippling their military until they can allocate funding and take the time to order products from Russia that don't have export controls on them from the US. Kind sucks, hunh?

You asked why? Because we've sought to maintain a balance in South America for the last 150 years and keep it as free of foreign meddling as possible. We've certainly meddled ourselves, but usually to counteract other outside efforts. Spain is looking to sell transports and MPAs to Venezuela, thus treating Chavez like he's a regular dude......we don't agree and choose to question sales of military goods to him. Our right.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 21):
Chavez has already wasted taxpayers money in Russia when he bought around 20 Mi-24 choppers and 100,000 AK-47 rifles. This patrol planes aren't a threat, compared with those rifles and choppers, especially the rifles that could EASILY fall into Colombia guerrillas hands just across the border.

That is what is really scaring their neighbors. Brasil is paying more attention, Colombia is paying far more attention, and having to spend money on this problem.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 21):
Also, Venezuela complained to Spain when Colombia announced that they would buy second hand tanks from Spain. After the complaint, Spain announced the cancellation of the deal. Impressive, huh? I think Chavez is becoming a growing menace day by day...

Yeah, equal treatment should be called for.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Derico
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
You asked why? Because we've sought to maintain a balance in South America for the last 150 years and keep it as free of foreign meddling as possible. We've certainly meddled ourselves, but usually to counteract other outside efforts. Spain is looking to sell transports and MPAs to Venezuela, thus treating Chavez like he's a regular dude......we don't agree and choose to question sales of military goods to him. Our right.

With all due respect, the US is the last country to be dictating who can sell what to who. The US certainly has the right not to sell to Venezuela, and Spain in retaliation, but a country that sold arms to the Taliban because it suited their interests at SOME point in the past has no moral or historical ground to tell anyone else what to do.

Anyways, the US influence in Latin America prior to 1950 has been so severely overblown. The whole belief some Americans have that the US has 'caretaken' the region is a big load of BS because it's untrue. The Monroe Doctrine is constantly invoked by the US to claim they kept 'foreign' European powers outside the region. The US never did anything to keep European powers outside anywhere. Heck, even France invaded Mexico, which is the country next door to the US, and they did zip-didy doo.

Something ignored in the US and overlooked in Latin America, for reasons of 'national pride', is that Argentina did much more to keep Europeans out than the US ever did. Argentina financed, coordinated, and launched the liberation of Chile and fed the armies that would successfully drive the Spanish out of Chile. Argentina attempted to liberate Bolivia, though the Spanish prevailed. Then Argentina's armies (with Chilean help), planned the liberation of Peru, and succesfully occupied Lima. Eventually Bolivar from the north came and met with San Martin and the latter stepped aside ang gave Peru to Bolivar, just as he had in Chile to O'higgins, proving he was not a conqueror but a true patriot of history.

Argentina also financed the Uruguayan liberation movement against the Portuguese, and eventually declared outright war against Brazi and drove them out of Uruguay and invaded southern Brazil proper. A British mediation would eventually assure Uruguayan independence. Argentina even financed the wars in Central America, and helped them become independent. Ever wondered why so many flags in the region are blue with white stripes?? Argentina was the original flag design that later was adopted by many countries in the region in recognition of Argentina's help.

All these are things many have forgotten today, even many Argentines themselves.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Nordair
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:32 am

They are just concerned because they want the Venezuelan military to do all their shopping at Wal-Mart.  stirthepot 
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Superfly
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:58 am

More power to Hugo Chavez!
He has every right to protect his people and another U.S. supported coupe attempt. Bush can bicker all he wants but this is just a cold hard reality his people will just have to live with.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Colombia is paying far more attention, and having to spend money on this problem.

Uh-oh will this interfear with there multi-billion dollar cocaine cartel?


 Cool  bigthumbsup  Viva Movimiento V República!  bigthumbsup   Cool

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L-188
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 14):
I believe you can buy CN235s as civilian planes so whatever technology there is there cannot possibly be sensitive (I am talking about the cargo version here, not the maritime patrol one).

Agreed, I wasn't talking of the cargo versions, since you are correct everything on the flight deck is probably airline stock. However all the electronics and weapons for the MPV version I would worry about and that is what I was speaking too.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
Or the US could just bomb Spain right now to destroy the items in question.

Having worked for an operator of the C-212, and having to witness out maintaince dept. deal with the parts department at CASA, I can't say that wouldn't be a bad idea.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: US Concerned By Venezuela Military Shopping Spree

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
Agreed, I wasn't talking of the cargo versions, since you are correct everything on the flight deck is probably airline stock. However all the electronics and weapons for the MPV version I would worry about and that is what I was speaking too

Spain's Defense Minister said neither the boats nor transport planes were armed and that the patrol planes were only equipped for self-defense
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