md80fanatic
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Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:09 am

I finally remembered this amazing video today as I was searching for something else....It is, I think, 5 different renditions of the Magruder film we are all familiar with. The first is the generally known footage, then you see a few slowmos and magnification versions.

Finally in the end you see a very well done "computer stabiliztion" version that keeps the auto JFK was travelling in stationary, allowing you to see the drama unfold inside the car.

http://www.thelawparty.com/MediaPlayer/JCVideos/MysteryKennedyClip.wmv


In the final clip (stabilized one), when the limo passes the street sign in the foreground, you can clearly see Kennedy and Connally get shot simultaneously and both wince in pain (this was unclear from the bouncy Magruder we have all seen before). Then 3-4 seconds later, the fatal shot arrives.

What do you think?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Thread starter):
What do you think?

To me, Arlen Specter's "Magic Bullet" theory was thoroughly debunked in Oliver Stone's film JFK.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Thread starter):
....It is, I think, 5 different renditions of the Magruder film we are all familiar with.

Magruder? Any good conspiracy nut knows it's ZAPRUDER. If you want to gain the respect of a.net's conspiracy theorists you have to know these things.

[Edited 2005-12-05 00:48:13]
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
corocks
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:14 am

Having stood at the window in the school book depository and looked down at the 'X' on the street, only one thing comes to mind - 'No Way'. It looks like an almost impossible shot on a moving target giving the distance and angle. I don't know how anyone could make that shot once, much less twice.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:31 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Thread starter):
What do you think?

I truly believe in the single bullet theory. I watched recreations with modern forensic techniques.

Oliver Stone was SO wrong in JFK. It's his "Michael Moore moment." JFK's head flew "back and to the left" as a reaction to the right front of his skull being blown out due to the formation of a pressure cavity as the bullet tore through his brain.


Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting COrocks (Reply 3):
Having stood at the window in the school book depository and looked down at the 'X' on the street, only one thing comes to mind - 'No Way'. It looks like an almost impossible shot on a moving target giving the distance and angle. I don't know how anyone could make that shot once, much less twice.

When I stood at that window, I thought the same thing. There is no way that there was only one trigger man.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
redngold
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting COrocks (Reply 3):



Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):

Are either of you a Marine Corps-trained sniper?
Up, up and away!
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting COrocks (Reply 3):
I don't know how anyone could make that shot once, much less twice.



Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):
When I stood at that window, I thought the same thing. There is no way that there was only one trigger man.

You just have to remember what the Gunnery Sgt in Full Metal Jacket said, "These men were Marines!". I've stood on top of the clock tower at the University of Texas and wondered how Charles Whitman managed to pick off people at the distances he did, but it obviously happened.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:54 am

I think the "magic bullet theory" is one of the biggest "crimes" ever perpertrated on the American people. I don't think this video montage will change anyone's mind. I think Lee Harvey Oswald was part of a larger plot to murder JFK. But he was not, and I will never beleve he was, the lone gunman-a below-average marksman in his life, shooting through trees, at a long distance, and hitting the target squarely in the head. I don't buy it. I never will.

JFK's murder will, I believe, go unsolved. You cannot take the move "JFK" as gospel, nor can you take the Warren Commission as such.

JFK was murdered in a conspiracy. Lord knows he had enough enemies, from Cuba to The Mob to those who thought he might not take us into Vietnam. But he was not killed by one man.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SpinalTap
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:56 am

A 3D film was constructed from the Zapruder film a few years ago:
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/intro.htm
It supports the single bullet theory and in my opinion is quite convincing
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Falcon84
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 9):

I may have to look at that more closely, but it proves nothing, from what I can see. It's another opinion, that is all.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 7):
You just have to remember what the Gunnery Sgt in Full Metal Jacket said, "These men were Marines!". I've stood on top of the clock tower at the University of Texas and wondered how Charles Whitman managed to pick off people at the distances he did, but it obviously happened.

Charles Whitman's shooting spree lasted 90 minutes and he used a sniper rifle among other weapons. Oswald, if you believe he was a lone gunman, shot 3 bullets accurately from a 6.5 x 52 mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 BOLT-ACTION rifle in approximately 5 seconds at a moving target. Hardly a comparison.

When you stand at the Depository window, you will see that it would have been much easier to shoot when the motorcade came straight at him on Houston street rather than wait until he passed and have to shoot with a sweeping action. Thats half the reason why I don't believe he acted alone.

Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
srbmod
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:13 pm

Who remembers that JFK assassination game that was briefly out last year (and caused as much contraversy as any of the GTA games)? One of the abandonware sites has it available to download. I tried it a few weeks back and even on the easiest settings, it was damn near impossible to do (mouse aiming is difficult to do as it is...). So let's see if anyone can even come close:
JFK Reloaded

I personally think the "Magic Bullet" is bullshit. There's no way in hell a single bullet could go through two people and come out nearly pristine like it is claimed. I even doubt Oswald's involvement, as the Carcano rifle was a piece of garbage rifle notorious for being inaccurate, even in the most skilled hands.
 
aaflt1871
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Redngold (Reply 6):
Are either of you a Marine Corps-trained sniper?

Neither was Oswald
Where did everybody go?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 12):
There's no way in hell a single bullet could go through two people and come out nearly pristine like it is claimed.

Last weekend, the Discovery Channel had a two hour show about this.

An Australian forensics team recreated the incident using ballistics gel, bones, and fibers to simulate the torsos and extremities of JFK and Connally. Using the same model of rifle and bullet, they fired through "JFK" and "Connally" from the proper distances and angles. The wounds were nearly identical to the real ones. The bullet passed through their Kennedy and Connally. It then passed through their Connally's wrist and nearly imbedded in their Connally's right thigh. When recovered, the bullet looked nearly identical to the "pristine bullet."

They also fired one of the bullets into the end of a 10 inch diameter, 40 inch long oak log. The rifle muzzle was six inches from the log. They recovered the bullet 36 inches into the log and it was nearly undamaged. Apparantly, that is one tough bullet because it surprised the ballistics experts on-scene. It's pretty hard to fragment or deform that brand and model of bullet.

Connally's jumpseat sat about eight inches lower than Kennedy's seat. It was also set further inboard by about ten inches:



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/SOH_1061.jpg

It was the most scientifically based research I've ever seen on the subject.

Mark

[Edited 2005-12-05 05:55:52]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
ltbewr
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:24 pm

When terrible thing happen like the JFK assination or the death of Princess Diana, often the absolute shock or audicity of it causes a number of people to embrace complex conspiricies or plots to explain it. I saw the replay recently on Discovery of a program on the recent research on the JFK assination and it uses plausable and recognized scientific study on it. It accepted the lone sniper and 'single bullet' theories.
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 11):
Charles Whitman's shooting spree lasted 90 minutes and he used a sniper rifle among other weapons. Oswald, if you believe he was a lone gunman, shot 3 bullets accurately from a 6.5 x 52 mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 BOLT-ACTION rifle in approximately 5 seconds at a moving target. Hardly a comparison.



Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 13):
Neither was Oswald

I'm a former Army Airborne Ranger and while I'm guilty of making my fair share of Marine Corp jokes, one thing you will never here me joke about is their marksmanship. Even a below average Marine Corp rifleman is a formidable shot. While Charles Whitman had more time, he was also being shot at after the first 15 minutes. The clock tower still bears the scars of every rancher that was in town with his rifle and decided to start shooting back. While their fire was widely inaccurate and more of danger to people stuck in offices in the tower, it still would have been hard to focus on a target as far away as some of them were with inbound rounds impacting all around you. One dedicated Marine with a rifle, fired up on adrenalin, can create absolute havoc and I don't doubt Oswald could have hit his target. I think he saw the Presidents motorcade depiction in the paper and made a snap decision to make himself famous.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 14):



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 15):



Quoting Gilligan (Reply 16):

All fine defenses of that position, but I will never believe he acted alone. I've never seen anything so overwhelming and compelling to lead me to that conclusion.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 14):
Last weekend, the Discovery Channel had a two hour show about this.

Excellent show. The most accurate and detailed accounting of the assassination thus far IMO.

I don't doubt Oswald operated alone. No overwhelming, compelling evidence to the contrary. While perhaps not a Marine defined Trained Sniper - he was a Marine . . . and you won't find better Marsmanship Training anywhere in the military . . . even their blasted laundry boys can shoot the mole off a gnats ass at 100 yards.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
All fine defenses of that position, but I will never believe he acted alone. I've never seen anything so overwhelming and compelling to lead me to that conclusion.

 checkmark 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:56 am

I had wanted a one day get away so yesterday it was Dallas. Didn't pay the money to go up to the window but I did walk down the street and look back up from the curb next to the X. It struck me that, just like everything else you see on television or the movies, it was much smaller in real life. I thought to myself, what is all the hubub, the distance compared to the targets I was asked to hit in infantry training was not all that far. Yes the target was moving, but the car had just completed an obtuse angle turn and according to the film was going slowly so as not to allow an accordion effect to develop with the cars behind. If I had the training he had, was as pumped with adrenalin as he probably was, then I just don't see that as being a truly difficult shot. He had fired the rifle hundreds if not thousands of times before so it' not like he just signed it out of the armory and didn't even have a chance to zero it.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:04 am

Oswald was the shooter, without a doubt.

If he was paid/assisted in his quest is another matter and one which we will never know. This will be subject to endless debate to no avail (and as such could be considered a mental mastrubation. The list of possible accomplices is endless, CIA, KGB, Mafia to name a few possibilities.

There was no shooter on the grassy knoll.

In my opnion, end of subject.

But then opnions are like buttholes, everyone has them, and other peoples stink.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:15 am

What about the grassy troll?  duck 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 20):
There was no shooter on the grassy knoll.

I thought the same thing. I could have gotten him with a long barrel pistol from the grassy knoll.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:02 am

Look, we're talking about a country that can't keep a friggen Blowjob in the Whitehouse a secret!

You really think that a conspiracry like this could go on for over 40 years?

Let's just move on people!
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jetjack74
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:55 am

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm
This was an interesting piece of the assasination.
The Umbrella Man
Was this fellow, standing in Dealey Plaza with an open umbrella and no rain in sight part of some conspiracy? The House Select Committee on Assassinations located the Umbrella Man -- a fellow named Louis Witt who was engaged in a somewhat obscure form of political protest. Here are two graphics, one showing Louis Witt's umbrella being opened before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, to the general merriment of all assembled. The second shows the Umbrella Man's umbrella in the Zapruder film in Dealey Plaza. Both of these images are video captures from the NOVA documentary. Here is the first one, and here is the second. Some conspiratorialists claim that the umbrellas are different, having a different number of spokes. Decide for yourself.

What was the point of the umbrella in Dealey Plaza? Apparently it was an attempt to heckle Kennedy with a reminder of the appeasement policies of British Prime Minister Nevill Chamberlain, whose weak posture toward Hitler was supported by Kennedy's father. Sounds pretty obscure to us today. But this 1930s British cartoon links the umbrella (Chamberlain's trademark) with weakness toward Nazism.

One of the more bizarre theories about The Umbrella man comes from Robert Cutler. Cutler claimed that the umbrella was a weapon firing a flechette (poisoned dart) that hit Kennedy in the throat, paralyzing Kennedy to set him up for the head shot. Here is Cutler's drawing of this concept.




I was on a layover in DFW, and went down there to have a look. Some of the solicitors of the conspiracy propaganda, was selling things in the plaza. One theory in a magazine he was selling, was that it may have been a signal for the first shot to be fired. And a 2nd shot was thought to have come from the infamous Black Dog Man, photgraphed by Mary Moorman in a Polaroid shot, across the street from Zapruder's vantage point.
Made from jets!
 
texan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:58 am

The Zapruder film has been altered. If you look at it frame by frame, you will find that in the frames where JFK is shot, the background is completely clear; that is, you can make out every single detail in the background, like the shot is a still shot. That means one of two things: either the car stopped and somebody in the motorcade was involved or the film was doctored to hide the truth. No accounts from the scene have the car stopping or slowing to a speed where the background would become visible. That means that the film must have been altered, meaning that we still have not seen the truth behind the assassination. The frames in question are somewhere between 300 and 360, don't have the exact frame references at hand.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
abefroman329
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 20):
This will be subject to endless debate to no avail (and as such could be considered a mental mastrubation.

This thread is already preferable to another "Guys, it wasn't a commercial airliner that hit the Pentagon!" thread
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:31 am

It was Jackie.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:02 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 25):
No accounts from the scene have the car stopping or slowing to a speed where the background would become visible.

How slow would it have to be going (average) for a Secret Service agent to catch up to the car from the car behind?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 28):
How slow would it have to be going (average) for a Secret Service agent to catch up to the car from the car behind?

I never thought of that! It didn't take long for the Secret Service agent to reach the back of the limo! Jackie was just starting to crawl onto the trunk (boot). And that happened only milliseconds after the head shot.



Mark

[Edited 2005-12-07 03:31:30]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 29):
I never thought of that!

Yeah, if you stand where he stood, the car is almost coming towards you on a parallel since the road it is on curves out and then back. It's not until the head shot and beyond that the car starts to speed up and the angle is more perpendicular that everything in the background gets blurry.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 2):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Thread starter):
....It is, I think, 5 different renditions of the Magruder film we are all familiar with.

Magruder? Any good conspiracy nut knows it's ZAPRUDER. If you want to gain the respect of a.net's conspiracy theorists you have to know these things.

I forgot I posted this topic....I was a little upset that day. And sorry for the misnaming...and honest mistake, at least I had the right number of syllables.  Wink
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 23):
Look, we're talking about a country that can't keep a friggen Blowjob in the Whitehouse a secret!

You really think that a conspiracry like this could go on for over 40 years?

Let's just move on people!

A few more questions if I may.

1) Once the first shot (the one that hit kennedy then Connally, not the fatal headshot) was realised, why didn't the motorcade speed away immediately, as they are trained to do? They actually slowed a little until the fatal shot arrived.

2) Why did the Connally's both take cover between the seats a full three seconds before the fatal headshot arrived? At this point in time we are expected to believe that shots had not yet been fired, pre "magic-bullet".

3) Knowing now there was a least two shots fired, both hitting her husband, why didn't Jackie ever relay this to the media....why did she keep quiet?

4) Same with the Connally's, why keep quiet?


If you tread through the forest of confusion by trying to identify the shooter and the location....you will be forever lost. The plaza was a natural ampitheatre with echoes all around, dozens of shooting positions, a real secret service mess (and a location like this would NEVER have been picked normally for a motorcade route).

You are right, this film or any film will change nothing. That event set the stage for a declining empire....and it is too far gone to reverse.
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 23):
Look, we're talking about a country that can't keep a friggen Blowjob in the Whitehouse a secret!

You really think that a conspiracry like this could go on for over 40 years?

The media treated Kennedy and his affairs differently than they treat recent presidents.

After the Warren Commission, the files and evidence were sealed, not to be opened until 2017.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 29):

I never thought of that! It didn't take long for the Secret Service agent to reach the back of the limo! Jackie was just starting to crawl onto the trunk (boot). And that happened only milliseconds after the head shot.

The Secret Service men were on foot infront of and behind the limo at the time, and the limo was going slow enough to allow them to keep up at a jog. Thats why you see them appear on the back of the car so quick.
 
Gilligan
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RE: Single Bullet Theory?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 34):
The Secret Service men were on foot infront of and behind the limo at the time, and the limo was going slow enough to allow them to keep up at a jog.

You're right, I forgot Clint Eastwood was there!! lol  wink 

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 32):
why didn't the motorcade speed away immediately, as they are trained to do?

Were they trained to do so at that time? When had the last President even been shot at? President McKinley in 1901? I think there may have been a lot of confusion and transistor radios with earpieces and cuff mics were still on the horizon. It might have taken the driver a couple of seconds to realize just what was happening. Plus he had vehicles in front of him. Trying to overtake them might have caused a wreck leaving everyone exposed even longer.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 32):
Why did the Connally's both take cover between the seats a full three seconds before the fatal headshot arrived?

In the film you can see JFK grabbing at his throat, Connally grabbing at his side, and Jackie as well as Mrs. Connally apparently asking what is wrong. Gov. Connally appears to just fall over in pain, not necessarily take cover.
As I said above, a think there was a lot of confusion going on. Hindsight is always 20/20 and we can see now where errors were made but in the heat of the moment it's awful tough to gather, correlate, and analyze all available information quickly. It's why in war some people fail to grasp the situation and get shot standing up and others are able to survive by hitting the deck.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!

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