Pe@rson
Topic Author
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Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:35 pm

Wouldn't it be fantastic if the ultra-fast trains which operate in parts of Asia, like South Korea, operated in the UK? Just think - 370km per hour. It would, of course, require billions in investment, but we can imagine what it'd be like. Why do I get the feeling we'll always have relatively slow, poorly punctual and quite unreliable trains in the UK? If we had the ultra-fast ones, that'd mean central London to major UK cities, for example:

Central Manchester in about 40-50 minutes
Central Birmingham in about 30 minutes
Central Liverpool in about 40-50 minutes
Central Leeds in about 40-50 minutes
Central Bristol in about 20-30 minutes
Central Cardiff in about 30 minutes
Central Plymouth in about 40 minutes
Central Newcastle in about 1 hour 10 minutes
Central Edinburgh in about 1 hour 40 minutes
Central Glasgow in about 1 hour 40 minutes

Some trains could stop enroute at other major cities, like London-Glasgow via Birmingham and Manchester. From London to Birmingham it'd be about 30 minutes; from Birmingham to Manchester it'd be about 20-25 minutes; from Manchester to Glasgow it'd be about 50 minutes. So, Birmingham-Glasgow would only take about 1 hour 10 minutes to 1 hour 15 minutes.

Wouldn't it be great?
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kaddyuk
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:40 pm

Before the trains start to go ultra fast, they need to get Ultra Cheap...

It costs me £1.70 to take the FOUR MINUTE train journey from my local station of Three Bridges to Gatwick Airport... Its a friggin disgrace how much the train costs these days, especially in the south. I'm happy to say that reliability and on time performance is improving, but its at an expense that is beyond belief. How can TfL expect to get people on public transport if it costs an arm and a leg to use it?

C'mon Southern Trains, drop your fares because as long as i have to pay through the nose for a ticket, i'll continue to attempt to bunk and NOT pay for a ticket.
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:48 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 1):
It costs me £1.70 to take the FOUR MINUTE train journey from my local station of Three Bridges to Gatwick Airport... Its a friggin disgrace how much the train costs these days, especially in the south. I'm happy to say that reliability and on time performance is improving, but its at an expense that is beyond belief. How can TfL expect to get people on public transport if it costs an arm and a leg to use it?

Don't be a lazy arse and ride there! Then you'll save £1.70 a day!
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
MYT332
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 1):
they need to get Ultra Cheap

Well if you get a seasonal ticket, book in advance or get a YP railcard then you'll find the trains are pretty much ultra cheap.
One Life, Live it.
 
trekster
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:01 pm

They need to sort the bleedin train network out first.

Cant belive i sometimes have to get a bus when i have paid for a train. Seats are never free cause the train is so packed. Once on GNER, the guard PUSHED my sister onto the train. It was packed
Where does the time go???
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting Airplanepics (Reply 2):
Don't be a lazy arse and ride there! Then you'll save £1.70 a day!

I'd rather not, i have to be at Gatwick for 0545 and at the moment its dark, and icy... Far to dangerous to be riding a bike to work at THAT time in the morning. I ride my bike in summer but not in winter.

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 3):
Well if you get a seasonal ticket, book in advance or get a YP railcard then you'll find the trains are pretty much ultra cheap.

Seasonal ticket doesnt work in my situation as i rotate around the company and i dont always need to get the train, it would work out as a waste of money. Booking in advance doesnt work because I cant. A YP Railcard might, but still, its shocking to think that Southern get away with such rediculous pricing.

I've experienced the rail system in manchester and london, and the northerners do it better... The 1hr journey from my local station in manchester to the airport costs £5.60rtn. The trains run on time and are never too busy.

I've caught the train to sheffield recently and it was fantastic... £20 rtn in First Class both ways. Booked in advance. If only all my journeys could be as happy as that one.

Quoting Trekster (Reply 4):
Seats are never free cause the train is so packed. Once on GNER, the guard PUSHED my sister onto the train. It was packed

The train companies are limited, they cant always put a larger train onto the service because not all station platforms can handle a train that is 8 cars in length. Avoid the train at peak times, its inevitable that it will be busy...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
mhodgson
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:25 pm

And another inflation-busting price rise has been announced - up to 10% on some fares.
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
Rj111
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:19 pm

Well we've got the London-Paris line that goes up to about 320km.

To acheive a system like you've said new high speed tracks would have to be built. I suggest running them alongside the M1 myself at least as far as Birmingham, then continuing along to Manchester, and possibly Glasgow and Edinburgh. They are very expensive to built but the operating costs of High speed trains such as the Eurostar and the TGV are incredible. Something rediculous like 50 full fare business passengers travelling from Paris-Lyon is enough for the train to break even, and they can fit that many people in one carriage.

Not only would that help domestic travel, you could also go from Manchester-Brussles, Glagow-Paris or Birmingham-Amsterdam within 5 hours.

I'd also suggest connecting such a line with LHR to act as a feeder 'flights' reducing slot demand.

Good idea, It'll never happen though.
 
MYT332
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:27 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 5):
I've experienced the rail system in manchester and london, and the northerners do it better... The 1hr journey from my local station in manchester to the airport costs £5.60rtn. The trains run on time and are never too busy

Hmm, well I don't know. At rush hours the 2 car trains are packed and are mostly late and if they are, guess what, they get cancelled at Piccadilly and you have to go find another service. Bullshit.

Anyway, get a YP.  Wink
One Life, Live it.
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:29 pm

the main reason we dont have high speeds over here is because there are turns everywere and it wouldnt be safe for a train to hurdle round it at 320km/h yet asia and other places have miles after miles after miles of straight so you dont have to worry about as many derailments
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
Klaus
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:21 am

The german ICEs have to deal with difficult terrain as well (unlike the TGV) and they still manage to run at express speeds.

It takes substantial investment in tracks and trains, however. Maggie Thatcher has made sure in her days that couldn't happen in Britain for a long time.
 
GDB
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:21 am

Klaus, you are so right.
What's been happening these past few years is an attempt to play catch up after years of under funding, not just in transport either.
It did not start with Maggie, but it greatly intensified under her, and Major.
 
jush
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 1):
Before the trains start to go ultra fast, they need to get Ultra Cheap...

Yep they may be too expensive. BUT before trains can go ultra fast in the UK you need COMPLETE al shiny new railway tracks.
No way you can go alot faster than 125 mph.
even that scared me sometimes cause it was bumpy like shit.

Regds
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
Demoose
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:49 am

I get the train across Manchester, both to work at the airport and to uni in the centre. Everyday I am amazed at how busy these trains are to the point where people are queing just to get onto the platform and then when the trains arrive people cannot get on and have to wait for another one (even when they put 6 carriage trains on). I feel so sorry for people who are using the train as a one off, perhaps for christmas shopping or to get to the airport, as for those unfamiliar with trains the experience would no doubt be quite scary and brutal.

Before we get involved in building ultra fast trains across the UK, they need to sort out the overcrowded trains which people have to use on a daily basis for work. One accident on one of these trains just doesn't bear thinking about, the overcrowding is unbelievable and totally unsafe.

Mark
Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
BigOrange
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 5):
The 1hr journey from my local station in manchester to the airport costs £5.60rtn. The trains run on time and are never too busy.

Must have improved in the last 3 years then! I used to wait for the 1711 Picc to Bolton train which was usually 3 or 4 cars. If that was late there was a 1715 train which was 2 cars. More often than not they would let the 1715 through first and then hold it at Salford Crescent while another 100 people try and squeeze on, then the 1711 would go through almost empty.

I guess living in Oldham, you have a train every few minutes going in either direction around the loop, so you never know whether they are late or not  Wink
 
Demoose
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:47 am

Haha BigOrange thinks havent' changed, and the those two trains still run at those times as I'm usually on one of them. Its funny when the two pull up at oxford road station and people in the know realise that they will make one wait longer, so you see people running across the platform to change to the train which will get the green signal first! Madness.
Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 14):
I guess living in Oldham, you have a train every few minutes going in either direction around the loop, so you never know whether they are late or not Wink

Well, i do notice because its a 15 minute ride to Manchester in one direction or an hour and twenty in the other... I've only ever once taken the long route, and that was all because i was curious as to how long it would take...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
Candid76
Posts: 552
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 5:10 am

RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 1):
It costs me £1.70 to take the FOUR MINUTE train journey from my local station of Three Bridges to Gatwick Airport... Its a friggin disgrace how much the train costs these days, especially in the south. I'm happy to say that reliability and on time performance is improving, but its at an expense that is beyond belief. How can TfL expect to get people on public transport if it costs an arm and a leg to use it?

This is miles outside TfL's area which on the Southern network extends about as far as East Croydon. Due to massive subsidies public transport within TfL's area is good value, certainly compared to Manchester.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 16):
Well, i do notice because its a 15 minute ride to Manchester in one direction or an hour and twenty in the other... I've only ever once taken the long route, and that was all because i was curious as to how long it would take...

Just as well you did. If Metrolink ever gets extended I think part of the "long way round" will actually be closed.

Actually I'd much prefer to travel to work by train as I hate driving, however my local station, Walkden, only has trains to Victoria. Of course it would be easy to change at Salford Crescent, but of course there are usually no connections to the airport. In fact I mentioned this in an airport survey just a few days ago.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 7):
I'd also suggest connecting such a line with LHR to act as a feeder 'flights' reducing slot demand

Please not from Manchester! The last thing we need is another excuse for airlines to avoid serving anywhere north of Watford.
 
Banco
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 17):
Please not from Manchester! The last thing we need is another excuse for airlines to avoid serving anywhere north of Watford.

What excuse? If they can make money doing something they'll do it. If they can't they won't. It's not a public service it's a business. This idea that they stop flying from regional airports because of a southern bias is complete nonsense.  Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7000
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:40 am

Having been on the PVG to shanghai Maglev recently, at speeds of 431kph, I find the "speeds of up to 125mph" virgin voyager trains a tad slow, and as others said, expensive.

If the UK believes it can do it, it can... Just look at the olympic bid.

The UK transport infrastructure needs a major upgrade, which will transform the UK regional economy. Spain did this in the 90's, and is now reaping the rewards... China is doing it now, and will also benefit in the years to come. India isnt, and for this reason... its economic miracle will fail (in comparison to China). Lets not mention how creaky the US infrastructure has become (just look at New Orleans)
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Candid76
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
It's not a public service it's a business.

And neither are railway companies. Why shouldn't they charge whatever fares people are prepared to pay? Neither are oil companies - they should charge as much for petrol as people are prepared to pay. No transport businesses in the UK these days are run for purely "public service" reasons.
 
Banco
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 20):
And neither are railway companies. Why shouldn't they charge whatever fares people are prepared to pay?

The difference with rail companies is that they get a whacking great subsidy from the public. Equally, the public pay for huge amounts of the infrastructure. None of this is remotely comparable to the aviation sector. Watching rail companies rack up the profits using our money whilst at the same time making a complete mess of the service is what winds people up.

I'll do you a deal: Give us all our money back, and then yes, they can charge what they want.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
None of this is remotely comparable to the aviation sector.

At least in Germany aviation is substantially subsidized through tax-free fuel. Road travel (and transportation) is massively subsidized with road construction and maintenance.

Demanding that only the railways should receive no subsidies at all while all their competitors are heavily subsidized is simply braindead, but still some people are demanding that the german railway should completely fund their tracks on their own.

Complete nonsense.
 
Banco
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
At least in Germany aviation is substantially subsidized through tax-free fuel. Road travel (and transportation) is massively subsidized with road construction and maintenance.

Demanding that only the railways should receive no subsidies at all while all their competitors are heavily subsidized is simply braindead, but still some people are demanding that the german railway should completely fund their tracks on their own.

Complete nonsense.

Don't be an idiot.  Yeah sure

The private rail companies in the UK receive direct subsidies from the public purse. The airlines do not.

Why do they receive public subsidy? Because there is a service element involved, particularly in terms of what might be unsustainable routes commercially. In aviation, this doesn't happen.

No-one is demanding that rail subsidies are removed. Just pointing out the difference.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
BigOrange
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 17):
Actually I'd much prefer to travel to work by train as I hate driving, however my local station, Walkden, only has trains to Victoria

I used to have the same problem. Living in Leigh, I used to use Atherton station. Then when I bought a house I moved to Bolton because it was easier to get to work.

Then I got wise and moved 3000 miles away, where there is no train route from near my home to anywhere near work, unless I go to Newark first, so I drive 40 miles each way 5 days a week Sad
 
Klaus
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 23):
Don't be an idiot.

Well, aren't we nice again today?  crazy 

You might have noticed that I was talking about the situation in Germany. The principle of the matter was the issue.
 
Banco
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 25):
You might have noticed that I was talking about the situation in Germany. The principle of the matter was the issue

You might have noticed that the thread is about the UK. You might also have noticed that my reply that you quoted was about the UK. You might further have noticed that you said "Complete nonsense" in your reply, presumably referencing my comment which was about the UK.

 Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:58 am

Not everything or everybody refers to you. Get used to it.

The context of my reply was quite clear.
 
A340600
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 1):
It costs me £1.70 to take the FOUR MINUTE train journey from my local station of Three Bridges to Gatwick Airport... Its a friggin disgrace how much the train costs these days, especially in the south.

Yep, shocking! Glad I have a pass that covers in-between these two stations.

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 8):
Anyway, get a YP.

He can't, he's not in full time education anymore or at Uni but in a full-time job.

Quoting Demoose (Reply 13):
(even when they put 6 carriage trains on

No wonder it's so packed, the majority of our trains in rush-hour are 12 coaches! Even then they're over crowded!

Since Southern has been around on my local network things have dramatically improved but fares are so high!

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
Banco
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Not everything or everybody refers to you. Get used to it

Right.  Yeah sure When you quote me, you're not referring to me.  Yeah sure

Stunning.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:08 am

I made very clear what I was speaking of, as an extension of the immediate topic and as a follow-up to my earlier remark. If you choose to get miffed about that then that's simply your choice.
 
Candid76
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
The difference with rail companies is that they get a whacking great subsidy from the public. Equally, the public pay for huge amounts of the infrastructure. None of this is remotely comparable to the aviation sector. Watching rail companies rack up the profits using our money whilst at the same time making a complete mess of the service is what winds people up.

Partly correct. Rail services in some areas of the country are very heavily subsidised because they serve a social need (however in many cases would need much less subsidy if the system itself was less bureaucratic and more efficient - this is being looked at in the new Community Railways project). A number of Train Operating Companies recieve hardly any subsidy or actually pay premiums to the Government. Likewise not all operators offer a bad service, no doubt some do, but you'll find punctuality on the railways is most definitely better than in aviation in percentage terms.

Rail infrastructure has recived massive amounts of taxpayers funding as it is a very expensive network to maintain. This funding has come down substantially as major projects are being completed. Roads are a similar story - but they are not expected to cover their costs to the extent that railways do and in fact road haulage companies are massively and unfairly subsidised by the Government, leading to far too much freight travelling by road adding to pollution and congestion. Road pricing will go some way to rectifying this.

To say this isn't remotely connected to aviation isn't true. Funding is available for new services from Scotland for example, and socially necessary services can receive PSO grants in Scotland and Ireland at least. Air doesn't have to be maintained like roads and railways, so the only infrastructure directly attributable to aviation is on the ground and the ATC system. Are you saying that aviation should pay for the roads and railways that serve airports? The average airport itself isn't much different from a large shopping centre and should be self funding in the long term.
 
atco2b
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting Airplanepics (Reply 2):
Don't be a lazy arse and ride there! Then you'll save £1.70 a day!

I wouldnt ride Three-Bridges - Gatwick!

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Wouldn't it be great?

Maybe...but what affect would it have on air travel?! No more orange Airbus' gracing the skies Big grin
Hey, you want to go out for pizza and some sex? What, you don't like pizza?
 
pilot kaz
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting A340600 (Reply 28):
Since Southern has been around on my local network things have dramatically improved but fares are so high!

Beats National Express anyday  Silly

I have found Southern cheaper than Thames link trains when I have to take that looooooooong ride to LGW  Smile
-
 
planesarecool
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RE: Ultra-fast Trains In The UK

Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:32 am

The only thing that annoys me about the trains down here is the continuous engineering works on the weekends. For example, today, I am going to Bristol (and then on to Dublin), and normally i'd get one of 4 hourly trains from Haslemere to Guildford, First Great Western Link from Guildford-Reading, the one of 2 hourly FGW trains to Bristol Temple Meads. However today, being sunday, and due to engineering works between Guildford and Wokingham, i need to:

1. Get one of 2 hourly trains from Haslemere-Guildford, with journeys taking 15 minutes longer than during the week. Then take a 15 minute tube ride across to Paddington, then an hourly 2 hour and 1 minute train into Bristol, taking almost 4 hours.

2. Get one of two hourly trains from Haslemere-Fratton, then a 2 coach Wessex Trains snail service from Fratton to Bristol, taking about 3 hours and stopping at about 20 stops on the way.

3. Get the replacement bus from Guildford to Reading which would take just as long as the previous two.

Including the 20 minute bus ride from Temple Meads to Bristol Airport, for my 22:55 flight, i need to get on the 16:17 train from Haslemere, but if it was during the week, i'd only need to get on the 17:32

Just as well i'll be able to relax in the nice first class carriages on the First Great Western HST, sipping a coke and eating a complimentry snack, knowing that its only cost me £2 for the whole journey, return.  Wink

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