whitehatter
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Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:31 am

Those filthy left wing liberal communists* at the BBC have just published a poll of ordinary Iraqi citizens, which shows optimism is growing amongst the general population. In particular the approval of their Government, although security concerns are still high.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4514414.stm

The majority favour a united Iraq (rather than one split by civil war or along population lines) with a strong Iraqi government. 71% declared that their personal lives were either good or very good at the moment.

(*sarcasm in case you didn't guess...)
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:55 am

Hatter, I hope you have your Nomex/Kevlar undershorts on . . . if not, I'll see about FedExing you a brand new set!!!

Cue Dan-Air, Schoenorama, PacificJourney, Jaysit . . . . and the usual predictable reponses . . . "It's  redflag , It's Whitewash, It's  redflag ,"

. . . . . . . . . . . .

""An opinion poll suggests Iraqis are generally optimistic about their lives, in spite of the violence that has plagued Iraq since the US-led invasion. ""

Interesting - since I read so many other "polls" that suggest the opposite - from such credible sources as Amnesty Int'l, Al Jazeera, and so on.

""In central Iraq respondents were far less optimistic about the situation in one year's time than those in Baghdad, the south and north.""

Sunni Triangle - Terrorist/Insurgency Central - Ramadi, Tikrit, Kirkuk. Not surprising at all. Perhaps if the residents in central Iraq handed over a few more assholes like earlier this week, it would lighten their load?

""However, Iraqis appear to have a more negative view of the overall situation in their country, with 53% answering that the situation is bad, and 44% saying it is good. ""

Not a surprise either. If someone were fighting a war in my front yard, I'd have to say, "yes, the situation is bad." That's rather a no brainer.

""But they were more hopeful for the future - 69% expect Iraq to improve, while 11% say it will worsen. ""

Unlike many A-Netters, the Iraqi's see the light at the end of the tunnel. Good for them.

""Half of those questioned felt Iraq needed a single, strong leader following December's vote, while 28% thought democracy was more important.

However, opinions changed when people were asked about what Iraq would need in five years' time.

Support for a strong leader fell to 31% and that for democracy rose to 45%. ""

Interesting. Democracy in Iraq . . . who'd have thought? Beats the predictions of Civil War . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Thread starter):
Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Always good to see the positive news going on there. I wish this would be published more often. Nice thread.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Hatter, I hope you have your Nomex/Kevlar undershorts on . . . if not, I'll see about FedExing you a brand new set!!!

Cue Dan-Air, Schoenorama, PacificJourney, Jaysit . . . . and the usual predictable reponses . . .

You beat me to it! As usual, cue the liberal flametards who have nothing better to do but completely discount ANYTHING positive about the region. Problem is, the news is starting to turn towards the good and these flamers, no pun intended, will just have to seek their cynnical fangs elsewhere.  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Cue Dan-Air, Schoenorama, PacificJourney, Jaysit . . . . and the usual predictable reponses . . . "It's redflag , It's Whitewash, It's redflag ,"

&

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 2):
You beat me to it! As usual, cue the liberal flametards who have nothing better to do but completely discount ANYTHING positive about the region. Problem is, the news is starting to turn towards the good and these flamers, no pun intended, will just have to seek their cynnical fangs elsewhere.

Christ, it's Limbaugh and O'Reilly again with their "You're with us or you're against us -style of discussing.

Of course the Iraqis are optimistic. I can't get much worse, now can it? But their increased optimism isn't the only newsworthy item from this poll:

"The number of Iraqis who say things are going well in their country overall is just 44 percent, far fewer than the 71 percent who say their own lives are going well. Fifty-two percent instead say the country is doing badly."

&

"And half of Iraqis now say it was wrong for U.S.-led forces to invade in spring 2003, up from 39 percent in 2004." http://abcnews.go.com/International/PollVault/story?id=1389228

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
"An opinion poll suggests Iraqis are generally optimistic about their lives, in spite of the violence that has plagued Iraq since the US-led invasion. ""

Interesting - since I read so many other "polls" that suggest the opposite - from such credible sources as Amnesty Int'l, Al Jazeera, and so on.

ANCFlyer reading an AlJazeera poll, now THAT would be news!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
"In central Iraq respondents were far less optimistic about the situation in one year's time than those in Baghdad, the south and north.""

Sunni Triangle - Terrorist/Insurgency Central - Ramadi, Tikrit, Kirkuk. Not surprising at all. Perhaps if the residents in central Iraq handed over a few more assholes like earlier this week, it would lighten their load?

This ABC/BBC poll suggests it is the US/Coalition Forces these people are unhappy about. How could you miss that little detail from this "incredibly optimistic" poll?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
"However, Iraqis appear to have a more negative view of the overall situation in their country, with 53% answering that the situation is bad, and 44% saying it is good. ""

Not a surprise either. If someone were fighting a war in my front yard, I'd have to say, "yes, the situation is bad." That's rather a no brainer.

Gosh, ANCFlyer, you are soooo smart! /sarcasm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
"But they were more hopeful for the future - 69% expect Iraq to improve, while 11% say it will worsen. ""
Unlike many A-Netters, the Iraqi's see the light at the end of the tunnel. Good for them.

Being more hopeful and actually having reasons to be more hopeful are two entirely different things.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
"Half of those questioned felt Iraq needed a single, strong leader following December's vote, while 28% thought democracy was more important.

However, opinions changed when people were asked about what Iraq would need in five years' time.

Support for a strong leader fell to 31% and that for democracy rose to 45%. ""

Interesting. Democracy in Iraq . . . who'd have thought? Beats the predictions of Civil War . . .

Have you actually read the poll?

Page 5, question 10: "What would be the worst thing that could happen to Iraq in the next 12 months:

- Lack of security/chaos: 16.5%
- Civil war/internal trouble: 16.1%
- Terrorism: 11.5%
- Occupation not leaving Iraq: 8.9%
- Division of the country: 4.3%
..
- No Freedom: 0.1%

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 2):
Always good to see the positive news going on there. I wish this would be published more often. Nice thread.

And we just stick to the only possitive issue in the poll and ignore all the other negative developments, right?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 2):
You beat me to it! As usual, cue the liberal flametards who have nothing better to do but completely discount ANYTHING positive about the region. Problem is, the news is starting to turn towards the good and these flamers, no pun intended, will just have to seek their cynnical fangs elsewhere.

You guys have picked out the ONLY possitive result from a poll and completely ignored all the other results. And you call me cynical?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
whitehatter
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Hatter, I hope you have your Nomex/Kevlar undershorts on . . . if not, I'll see about FedExing you a brand new set!!!

Like I give a...

The point is, out of all the mess that Iraq threw up, there are now clear signs that the people are becoming optimistic and don't want any part of a return to dictatorship. Nor will they entertain puppet governments or partition. They are beginning to strongly embrace the ideal of a democratic and independent Iraq with a bright future.

So both sides of the current war need to heed their words. The coalition needs an exit strategy which hands 100% of power and influence to an elected Government, and the insurgents/Islamic hardliners have no majority of support within Iraq.

The road may have been rocky so far, but the people are saying where they want that road to go. To democracy and stability. Neither liberal nor conservative thinkers can challenge that, it's exactly where both want them to be.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 2):
Always good to see the positive news going on there. I wish this would be published more often. Nice thread.

This isn't about coalition troops or insurgents. It's all about Iraqis wanting to make a future for themselves, and believing in themselves rather than being the possessions of a dictatorship.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
And we just stick to the only possitive issue in the poll and ignore all the other negative developments, right?

One question.....have you been to Iraq?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
This isn't about coalition troops or insurgents.

No shit. Its never been about anything other than the Iraqi people getting out from under the horrible reigns of the asswad dictatorship they were forced to deal with. This is the positive news that needs to come out. I'm surprised you said this.
Crye me a river
 
CX747
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:42 am

If it is good news about Iraq, this post won't have that many responses. By tomorrow I will probably have to scroll down half a page to find it. I'm glad to hear that the Iraqis are alot smarter than some of our own forum members.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
beefstew25
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 6):
If it is good news about Iraq, this post won't have that many responses. By tomorrow I will probably have to scroll down half a page to find it. I'm glad to hear that the Iraqis are alot smarter than some of our own forum members.

Agree. If you complain about this thread, than what is your ultimate wish? Failure in Iraq (which some people are praying for).

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
This ABC/BBC poll suggests it is the US/Coalition Forces these people are unhappy about. How could you miss that little detail from this "incredibly optimistic" poll?

I would love to see the poll of the US military should they up and leave RIGHT NOW. They can complain about the military being there, but I know an easy majority do not want them to leave.
MLB: Where you are always number one for takeoff.....
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
One question.....have you been to Iraq?

We're discussing the results (ALL of them, not just one) of a poll taken by Iraqi people (living in Iraq right now). Whether I, yourself or your buddy ANCFlyer have been to Iraq is completely irrelevant!

Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 7):
They can complain about the military being there, but I know an easy majority do not want them to leave.

That assertion isn't backed up by these poll-numbers (and I doubt it there is such a poll).
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
Christ, it's Limbaugh and O'Reilly again with their "You're with us or you're against us -style of discussing.

Well, I wouldn't go that far - I don't even watch those two - but hey . . . at least I called it spot on didn't I. And I didn't have to wait very long for it. Damn, I'm good.  thumbsup 

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
This ABC/BBC poll suggests it is the US/Coalition Forces these people are unhappy about. How could you miss that little detail from this "incredibly optimistic" poll?

No, not at all - I was counting on your to post it . . . I didn't se the need to have it done twice. I couldn't agree with the people more. No one could possibly enjoy having occupying forces tomping through their streets day in and day out.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
Being more hopeful and actually having reasons to be more hopeful are two entirely different things.

So what are you saying here? These people are just all of the sudden, fuck it, "hopeful". No reason . . . we just are???? That's ridiculous.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
Have you actually read the poll?

Of course . . . . unlike some people here I actually read the source document before making comment on it. . . .funny about that sort of thing.

Thanks for maintaining the standard Schoenorama . . . some guys can always be counted on . . . .  thumbsup 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dan-air
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Well, I wouldn't go that far - I don't even watch those two - but hey . . . at least I called it spot on didn't I. And I didn't have to wait very long for it. Damn, I'm good.

Great poll. Hope the insurgents take note of it.

FYI - "good news" would be improvement in the security situation - counting the number of cell phones doesn't mean a whole lot.

Enjoy the debate with yourself, ANC. And hey, if things don't go according to plan in Iraq, you and the other members of the cheerleaders-for-Bush squad run out of "good news", try clapping louder, maybe that will do the trick.
 sarcastic 
 
slider
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
So what are you saying here? These people are just all of the sudden, fuck it, "hopeful". No reason . . . we just are???? That's ridiculous.

LOL!!

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
Enjoy the debate with yourself, ANC. And hey, if things don't go according to plan in Iraq, you and the other members of the cheerleaders-for-Bush squad run out of "good news", try clapping louder, maybe that will do the trick.

Read as: any good news out of Iraq is bad news for my agenda and the agenda of the left.

Hey, how about being happy? Your responses are as predictable as a cop in a donut shop.

It's not perfect, but progress is being made in Iraq. Sure beats anarchy and a total vacuum---these people are starting to stand up for themselves, re-assert an identity that was squelched by a dictator. They've tasted freedom, self-rule, and open government and they like it.

Why pee in their corn flakes?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
Great poll. Hope the insurgents take note of it.

Great Post Dan-Air . . .

Now, anything of substance you'd like to add?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
FYI - "good news" would be improvement in the security situation

I have to agree . . . . obviously . . . .and I think the poll pointed that out didn't it?

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
if things don't go according to plan in Iraq

Things already haven't gone according to plan. Not since April/May 2003 . . . hasn't that been one of the underlying problems? No plan from the Five Sided Funny Farm? I'm not clapping about that. Dumsfeld should have been fired for that - a long time ago. And he should have taken Condi Rice - the ultimate

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
cheerleaders-for-Bush

with him . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
whitehatter
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
No shit. Its never been about anything other than the Iraqi people getting out from under the horrible reigns of the asswad dictatorship they were forced to deal with. This is the positive news that needs to come out. I'm surprised you said this.

I mean that it isn't an endorsement of any particular strategy or ideology, and neither is it the reason to start throwing lumps of shit around. It's the Iraqi people here, giving their views and hopes for the future.

I have always taken the Anne Clwyd line (she's a longstanding friend of the Iraqi people on the left who welcomed the downfall of Saddam) that the war was the right war, fought at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. He should have been cleared out the first time round. There are many on the left of British politics who supported this war for that reason.

It is good news as it means the people I support are starting to see something worthwhile emerge from this, which is all I really care about. Others can throw the shit around and press for Bush to be held accountable (Blair too). That is domestic politics and should not detract from this piece of good news.

[Edited 2005-12-12 21:05:20]
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
dan-air
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
I have to agree . . . . obviously . . . .and I think the poll pointed that out didn't it?

How? Maybe it's my reading comprehension... sarcastic 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Now, anything of substance you'd like to add?

Of course not!  Wink Remember, the only reason I post is because I "hate America", "hate Bush", and "hate Mom and Apple Pie". Something like that.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Things already haven't gone according to plan. Not since April/May 2003 . . . hasn't that been one of the underlying problems? No plan from the Five Sided Funny Farm? I'm not clapping about that. Dumsfeld should have been fired for that - a long time ago. And he should have taken Condi Rice - the ultimate

Wait a minute! I agree with you! Holy crap! You hate America and apple pie too?  Wink
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 14):
How? Maybe it's my reading comprehension...

 rotfl  Could be . . .
When asked to choose a priority for the new government due to be formed after this week's elections, 57% wanted to focus on restoring public security""

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 14):
Wait a minute! I agree with you! Holy crap! You hate America and apple pie too?  wink 

 faint  (And Chevrolets . . . danged Chevrolets) . . . rotfl 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dan-air
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
57% wanted to focus on restoring public security"

OK, the people want improved security, the same way 57% of Dan-Air responded that they wanted a date with Pam Anderson.

When the situation in Iraq actually improves, or I get a date with Pam, whichever occurs first then we can claim "good news" - OK? That was the point I was trying to make, yet you failed to comprehend.  Wink
 
seb146
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:36 am

I am glad to see some news outlet trying to find some real good news in Iraq besides cell phone and sattelite use is up.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Nor will they entertain puppet governments or partition. They are beginning to strongly embrace the ideal of a democratic and independent Iraq with a bright future.

Ummm.... It is a bit late for the puppet government. The United States is trying to guide Iraq to "democracy" and "independnce."


Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 7):
Failure in Iraq (which some people are praying for).

The United States has ruined it's reputation world-wide by invading and occupying a nation that had no plans to strike. Not a whole lot the U.S. can do about that right now. The biggest way of insuring failure in Iraq would be the commander-in-chief's current strategy of "stay the course."

But, like I said, we have failed ourselves. I think that is much much worse.

GO CANUCKS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
So what are you saying here? These people are just all of the sudden, fuck it, "hopeful". No reason . . . we just are???? That's ridiculous.

Bluntly stating that a poll showing Iraqis are generally optimistic is a good sign or positive news is ridiculous as long as one doesn't take in mind the situation that country has experienced over the past 25 years: there was Saddam, war with Iran, the first Gulf War, the economic sanctions and its bombing campaigns and finally this invasion and a dictator gone. I would have been suprised if they wouldn't have been optimistic.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Of course . . . . unlike some people here I actually read the source document before making comment on it. . . .funny about that sort of thing.

Then how come you stated the predictions about a Civil War were beaten by the increased support for Democracy in Iraq when the poll-data clearly indicate otherwise, as outlined in my previous post??? Civil war/internal trouble and Division of the country scored 16.1% and 4.3% respectively in the question about the worst things that could happen to Iraq in the next year, while a lack of Freedom (generally associated with Democracies) only scored 0.1%?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Thanks for maintaining the standard Schoenorama . . . some guys can always be counted on . . . .

I at least have a standard and don't cherry-pick poll-data for something, anything even remotely positive. You are really grasping at straws now.

Quoting Dan-Air (Reply 10):
if things don't go according to plan in Iraq

Plan? You mean they actually have a plan?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 8):
We're discussing the results (ALL of them, not just one) of a poll taken by Iraqi people (living in Iraq right now)

Exactly right.....we're talking about ALL of the polls. That means EVERY DAMNED ONE OF THEM. Unfortunately for you, even though you have the self-proclaimed God's-eye view of the world and humanity, also knowing everything there is to know about everything, you can't speak to EVERY SINGLE POLL.

For some reason, your little inferiority complex prohibits you from indulging in a wonderful skill commonly known as.......logic. If you want to be a bitcher and constantly stir up the bad, go right ahead. I warn you, though, that it takes far fewer brain cells to conjure up that type of nonsense. However, if for one second you'd like to step outside of your box...  boxedin  ...feel free to let us know.

Until then, your credibility is about as much as a hooker with a dime bag in her pocket claiming it was her pimp's.  yes 
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 18):
Bluntly stating that a poll showing Iraqis are generally optimistic is a good sign or positive news is ridiculous as long as one doesn't take in mind the situation that country has experienced over the past 25 years: there was Saddam, war with Iran, the first Gulf War, the economic sanctions and its bombing campaigns and finally this invasion and a dictator gone. I would have been suprised if they wouldn't have been optimistic.

This is not a poll of Americans or Germans or Spaniards . . . it's a poll of Iraqis. Don't you think those citizens polled thought about exactly what you outline above when answering this question?

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 18):
Then how come you stated the predictions about a Civil War were beaten by the increased support for Democracy in Iraq when the poll-data clearly indicate otherwise, as outlined in my previous post???

That was a remark directed at another member regarding something he said on this subject in a different thread . . . nothing to do immediately with the poll result. I didn't make myself clear apparently, therefore apologies are offered.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 18):
I at least have a standard and don't cherry-pick poll-data for something, anything even remotely positive. You are really grasping at straws now.

I don't call DoD information and this BBC Poll "remotely" positive. I do call many other sources suspect - including Fox and CNN . . .

There's no straw grasping, only relay of positive, documented information, rather than speculative bullshit so prevelant aboard A-Net.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 18):
Plan? You mean they actually have a plan?

Nope.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Not since April/May 2003 . . . hasn't that been one of the underlying problems? No plan from the Five Sided Funny Farm? I'm not clapping about that. Dumsfeld should have been fired for that - a long time ago. And he should have taken Condi Rice - the ultimate
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
slider
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 13):
He should have been cleared out the first time round.

To this point, I totally agree. But point of clarification--the UN mandate, which the US and others exercised, did not call for his removal.

Funny how more wars have been started and more trouble caused by usually going NOT FAR ENOUGH rather than too far. Had we kept on going to Baghdad back then, I can only imagine how things would look now.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 17):

Ummm.... It is a bit late for the puppet government. The United States is trying to guide Iraq to "democracy" and "independnce."

Ummm.....bullshit.

Puppet governments are a very real issue. Look at Iran. A puppet of hardline conservative mullahs. The Iraqis are clearly saying they want no part of either US, British or Iranian guidance. They want their own future, not one someone else lays down for them or enforces from behind the doors of a mosque. Hardline candidates in elections will find they do not enjoy the support of the people, nor will they stand for rigged elections like happened with this lunatic in Iran.

Also, nice that you continue to ignore the other forces at work in Iraq. The British army and air force send their thanks for being considered irrelevant yet again.

Quoting Slider (Reply 21):

To this point, I totally agree. But point of clarification--the UN mandate, which the US and others exercised, did not call for his removal.

That was as arguable as the UN issues in this present war. However had the forces pushed on, many people would not have been tortured and murdered in the years between the wars.

The original mandate could have been argued and extended as necessary using Germany 1939 as a case study. To right the Kuwait wrong and remove Saddam from there was one part, removing any further threat following that invasion could have been argued successfully. The Allies in 1944-5 did not just stop at the German border, they pushed on and eliminated the threat.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 19):
Exactly right.....we're talking about ALL of the polls.

That isn't what I said. I said: "We're discussing the results (ALL of them, not just one) of a poll taken by Iraqi people." Surely a naval aviator whose hobbies are reading and writing masters the skills of basic English Grammar.

A POLL refers to the poll mentioned in the thread-starter. You guys have cherry-picked one particular piece of poll-data and ignored all the other info from that same poll which is far less rosy.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 19):
For some reason, your little inferiority complex prohibits you from indulging in a wonderful skill commonly known as.......logic.

Since when is it logic to pick out one particular poll-finding but ignore all the other data from that same poll? Since when is it logic NOT to substantiate that particular poll-finding a little further in combination with all the other data from that same poll?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 19):
Until then, your credibility is about as much as a hooker with a dime bag in her pocket claiming it was her pimp's.

Your criticism completely fails to impress me. Talk about credibility...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
his is not a poll of Americans or Germans or Spaniards . . . it's a poll of Iraqis. Don't you think those citizens polled thought about exactly what you outline above when answering this question?

Of course they did! But you guys use this particular piece of poll-data to back-up your justification for the invasion of Iraq, thereby painting a rosy picture of Iraq while completely ignoring some other data from that same poll which clearly indicates otherwise. Care to substantiate how Iraqis being more optimistic than a year ago correlates to a majority of iraqis (33%) still believing the US-led invasion in 2003 was wrong (Page 3, question 6)?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
That was a remark directed at another member regarding something he said on this subject in a different thread . . . nothing to do immediately with the poll result. I didn't make myself clear apparently, therefore apologies are offered.

Bullsh!t. I don't believe a word of it! Of course it had to do with the poll result because that is where you learned support for democracy had increased. Whether your little remark was regarding another member and another thread is completely irrelevant: had you read the poll-data, all of them, before typing your very first reply, you probably wouldn't have stated "Beats the predictions of Civil War..." 'cause the actual poll-report, the one you said you had read, clearly indicates otherwise.

Why can't you simply acknowledge you f@cked-up?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
I don't call DoD information and this BBC Poll "remotely" positive. I do call many other sources suspect - including Fox and CNN . . .

There's no straw grasping, only relay of positive, documented information, rather than speculative bullshit so prevelant aboard A-Net


I don't mind relaying well documented information as long as all the information is taken into account, not just the ones that support 'my case'.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 22):
That was as arguable as the UN issues in this present war.

No, it isn't. The mandate is the mandate right? So are you admitting the UN's egregious failure in this regard?

They approved the ending of hostilities against Kuwait and the removal of Iraqi forces from same. That's it.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 22):
However had the forces pushed on, many people would not have been tortured and murdered in the years between the wars.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Had the US and/or coalition forces exceeded the mandate, we'd have been crucified in the media and in world opinion for being cowboys. Now fast forward to 2005 and it's still wrong in world opinion? What's changed? Saddam's murdering of hundreds of thousands wasn't enough? His production of WMD, which were previously documented? The opinion held in many nations that it was only a matter of time before taking him out was inevitable?

I think the UN's failing in 1991 is very much germane to the argument.

We're seeing the same diplomatic and bureaucratic failure play out in Iran now. Iran is gong nuclear, has a complete nutjob in power, and he's being handled diplomatically, when in reality the justification for pre-emption, if you believe it a viable strategy, was never clearer and arguably more clear than in Iraq.

Thoughts?
 
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
Bullsh!t. I don't believe a word of it!

I don't give a flying fuck whether you believe it or not. That's the way it is, the person to whom it was directed knows who he is, end of story, next ridiculous question?

And you can stop the elementary school bold printing and underlining - I read and comprehend just fine without it. Unless you feel completely compelled to look like a 3rd grader here. Than have at it.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 23):
Care to substantiate how Iraqis being more optimistic than a year ago correlates to a majority of iraqis (33%) still believing the US-led invasion in 2003 was wrong (Page 3, question 6)?

There is no need to. I don't fault the Iraqi's for thinking the invasion was wrong or unnecessary, and they can feel optimistic about their future at the same time.

It is entirely possible to have feelings of optimism about the direction their country is going and still hate the US/UK, the invasion, the insurgency - the whole ball of wax.

Is that so difficult to comprehend?
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:09 am

I don't see why people are speaking so positively about this. Just because two of the three main factions are happy and hopeful doesn't mean that they'll be able to keep the third main faction from eventually causing a civil war in the future. I think we always knew this would be the case in the early going. One faction was going to be pulled from power, thus creating a better life for the other two factions. There's nothing very special or surprising about that development, IMO.

I also don't understand why questioning the relevance of the bad news coming out of Iraq is okay, but questioning the relevance of the good news is not.
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:24 am

One point about the 1990/91 UN mandate, Bush 1 clearly went with it as he, and the rest of the Western part of the coalition (which included France, Germany legally could not take part), needed it to get support, basing, from other Arab states.

Without it there could not have been a Desert Shield, let alone Desert Storm.

Look how Saddam launched those otherwise pretty useless SCUDS at Israel, to get them in the war, which would have removed all Arab support, left the Western coalition high and dry.
Only a pretty remarkable piece of diplomacy from the US, (laughable to think the current lot in the White House could manage something similar), prevented Israeli intervention, which whatever you think of some of Israel's actions, was pretty justified.

So you had a bit of a Catch 22, you need the mandate to fight the war in the first place, but it prevents you from destroying the regime you are fighting.

Also, there was no desire on the US's part to fight all the way to Baghdad, as getting bogged down in an insurgency was very likely (as we have seen since).
Brent Scowcroft, a senior aide in 1991, interviewed in 1996, said if they had gone all the way to Baghdad, we'd still be there.
That was 5 years after 1991, he's been proved right hasn't he?
 
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:31 am

And for the first time in their history someone is actually ASKING the Iraqis what they think, instead of telling them. That in itself is positive.
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
I don't give a flying fuck whether you believe it or not. That's the way it is, the person to whom it was directed knows who he is, end of story, next ridiculous question?

Fantastic logic you have! Really, amazing. And your discussion skills aren't much better, I'm afraid. Whether your claim was directed to God knows who in God knows what other thread, the claim itself was completely wrong and CERTAINLY not based on the poll-data you claimed you had read.

And now that I've catched you on your little bullshit you no longer want to discuss the issue. How convenient!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
And you can stop the elementary school bold printing and underlining - I read and comprehend just fine without it. Unless you feel completely compelled to look like a 3rd grader here. Than have at it.

So you do not like it when I use the bold printing and underlining, oops, the bold printing and underlining? Good, thanks for that little bit of info.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
I don't fault the Iraqi's for thinking the invasion was wrong or unnecessary, and they can feel optimistic about their future at the same time.

Your very first reply in this thread was far more resolute regarding certain poll-data then you are being now. In fact, there is a certain pattern in many discussions you and I have had: you begin making resolute statements and claims and by reply number 15 you decide to take a more moderate stance while claiming you've been moderate all along!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
It is entirely possible to have feelings of optimism about the direction their country is going and still hate the US/UK, the invasion, the insurgency - the whole ball of wax.

Is that so difficult to comprehend?

No, that isn't difficult to comprehend, and if you'd read my previous posts more carefully you would have seen that I was stating just that. The issue is why they are more optimistic and this is where you and I differ.

Quoting SATX (Reply 26):
I also don't understand why questioning the relevance of the bad news coming out of Iraq is okay, but questioning the relevance of the good news is not.

I don't have an issue with questioning the relevance of possitive news. I do have a problem with overhyping possitive news, specially when it is used as yet another justification for this war.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
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RE: Some Good News Coming Out Of Iraqi BBC Poll

Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 29):
So you do not like it when I use the bold printing and underlining, oops, the bold printing and underlining?

Ha Ha Ha - once again, I don't give a rats ass whether you use it or not - I'm not the one that looks like an elementary school student that has to shout to get his point across. Thanks for biting though.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 29):
And now that I've catched you on your little bullshit you no longer want to discuss the issue. How convenient!

No, not true. . . I'll discuss it all day if it'll make you feel better. I simply see no point in belaboring a dead issue. But, what the hell, for the sheer entertainment value - pose your question . . . we will continue to disagree like we have about everything, and you'll continue your tirade with your underlining and bold printing and I'll continue to laugh at it.

And, meaning no disrespect because your English is excellent . . . it's caught not catched.  wink 

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 29):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):
I don't give a flying fuck whether you believe it or not. That's the way it is, the person to whom it was directed knows who he is, end of story, next ridiculous question?

Fantastic logic you have! Really, amazing.

This really has your panties in a wad doesn't it? GOod, I hope they knot right up.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 29):
The issue is why they are more optimistic and this is where you and I differ.

Flash of the blindingly obvious to you? We always differ. And the argument from here is - there isn't one. We have differing opinions? The need for further deadhorse beating. If you insist, though, you can post more questions and we'll continue to brow beat each other. I can hang if you can?

Perhaps they are more optimistic because they will finally have an opportunity to have a say in what goes on in their country?
Perhaps because they know the sooner their coutnry stands on it's own the sooner the US/UK forces will leave?
Perhaps they know you're never coming to visit and that makes them elated to no end?
There's a few reasons for you to chew on - go for it.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 29):
Your very first reply in this thread was far more resolute regarding certain poll-data then you are being now. In fact, there is a certain pattern in many discussions you and I have had: you begin making resolute statements and claims and by reply number 15 you decide to take a more moderate stance while claiming you've been moderate all along!

 laughing  Thanks for the analysis. Pure bullshit, but thanks for it anyway.
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