cfalk
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Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:32 am

With "Tookie" Williams now pushing up the daisies, I'd like to bring up one reason why so many people support the death penalty these days. I am pro-death penalty, but I would be willing to give up that stand if certain reforms were instituted.

I feel that prison nowadays is way too easy. You have lots of time to goof off, lift weights, watch TV, hang out with your buddies and teach each other how to make shiv-knives and pick locks for the day when you get out. The worst criminals (like "Tookie"), actually have the best time of it, and wimpy guys learn to take on a tough guy image unless they wanna become someone's bitch. Finally, you almost never serve the time sentenced. 10 years becomes 4 years and out for "good behaviour" (meaning you didn't kill anyone in prison).

That is why I and many others support the death penalty, because it is the closest punishment you can have that somewhat can attone for the horrific crimes that these people commit (like "Tookie").

But I would be willing to say no to capital punishment IF the following reforms were made:

1) Prison reinstitutes hard labor. By hard labor, that means farming fields, laying asphalt for roads, working in a quarry or a mine. It should be tough, back-breaking work for 6 days per week, 8 to 12 hours per day. The rest of the time they are in their cells or at the mess hall.

2) Eliminate the parole system. If you get sentenced to 10 years, by God you will serve 10 years, and not a day less.

Firstly, these reforms will allow prisoners to work for their food and lodging, and give a little payback to society for their misdeeds. Secondly, it makes prison to be a very unpleasant experience for guys who, let's face, have a problem with the work effort. Many of these habitual jailbirds are there because they were too lazy to work at school or to do a regular job. Prison life should be far, far worse than working in a grocery store for minimum wage.

So what do you guys think?
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jwenting
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:37 am

Good ideas.
Not sure if the hard labour is needed though, boredom is a worse punishment.
So lock them in their cells with no TV or radio for 20+ hours a day.
And no luxury hotel rooms as cells either like we have now, back to the bare concrete walls and floors with rough wooden slabs and thin straw mattresses.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
So what do you guys think?

My observation is that you've left out the opportunity for an inmate to be rehabilitated. Jail isn't supposed to be all about being punitive. You can also use confinement time to help turn someone around who doesn't know how to do it themselves.
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Go3Team
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:57 am

Seems like jails/prisons these days are nothing more than a school for thugs. Inside they learn better tricks of the trade. Solitary in a 6x6 with no TV and only books to read 24 hrs a day would work for me. With any luck, they will off themselves, and be less a burden on society.
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whitehatter
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:59 am

The only thing the posts above prove is that neither poster has a clue what they are talking about, and would be screaming the loudest should they find themselves in the situation they seem to want for everyone else.

Prison is removal of liberty and the ability to make one's own decisions. That alone is a serious imposition on the life of a prisoner. Making it extremely hard whilst inside just breeds resentment and violence. Just like a death sentence never deterred a single murderer, extreme prison conditions will never deter a criminal when they commit the crime.

There needs to be a tradeoff between tough and bearable. Physical exercise is one useful way prisoners can burn off excess nervous and physical energy. And you want it stopped?

Hard labour is equally bullshit. It never reformed anyone. Work should be compulsory, but so should access to learning skills and education. Prisons are "correctional" facilities or hadn't you noticed the name before?

In charitable works, if you feed a man he is full for one day. Help him to grow or fish for his own food and he need not go hungry again. Hard labour and work with purpose are the same. Educate and train prisoners and they have alternatives. But you want that stopped too?

Nice cushy cells too. Have you been in one? Nope, didn't think so. Most blowhards spout on about what they know nothing about. So you want a prisoner locked in a bare room for 20+ hours on end, emerging resentful and ready to blow up at the slightest provocation? Oh yes, as long as you aren't the guard who gets his face smashed, of course.

Prisoners make their cells into their own little anchor in life. Take that away and they drift. Someone like that will emerge from prison violent and resentful, and someone else will get the full force of that resentment. But hey, as long as you reichtards can sit inside your gated communities and let someone else do your dirty work then that's fine by you. Isn't it?

Grow up.
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tbar220
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Finally, you almost never serve the time sentenced.

Proof? And not just some isolated example.

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
2) Eliminate the parole system.

Last I checked, prison was also about rehabilitation, not just punishment.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 1):
And no luxury hotel rooms as cells either like we have now

Proof? Not some isolated example either.

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 3):
Seems like jails/prisons these days are nothing more than a school for thugs. Inside they learn better tricks of the trade.

Where did you get this idea? From television? I'm curious where you came up with these conclusions.

***

Personally, I'm completely opposed to death penalty. Sure we need jail reform, I also feel we need some reform in our justice system, considering that 3% of our population is in JAIL. Says something is screwy in our society if you ask me.
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KROC
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:07 am

I'm all for prison reform and death penalty reform.

First off, the appeals process needs to be drastically cut down time wise. A prisoner should not sit on death row for 20 plus years. Whats the point?

Inside the prisons themselves...it should be a jail period. Not a free college. Not a movie theater. Nothing like that. Perks like watching T.V., listening to the radio, watching a movie, being able to take college classes should all be dependent on inmate behavior. Fuck up once, kiss those privileges goodbye for a fair amount of time. A system of classes should be set up that inmates would have to attend, some based on their crimes, others on just general life situations. Interaction like this could help rehabilitate and at a minimum make it easier to see if an inmate is bettering himself or BSing his way through. Don't take class seriously, or pay attention, or do whatever work is involved...kiss your privileges goodbye. Also, hard labor should be the norm. Chain Gangs should be prominent. Look, if you don't want to be part of a Chain Gang...then don't break the law. Prison shouldn't be easy.
 
beefstew25
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
So you want a prisoner locked in a bare room for 20+ hours on end, emerging resentful and ready to blow up at the slightest provocation?

Yes, and then the word gets out that prison sucks, and repeat offenders and first time offenders straighten up.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Prisoners make their cells into their own little anchor in life. Take that away and they drift. Someone like that will emerge from prison violent and resentful, and someone else will get the full force of that resentment. But hey, as long as you reichtards can sit inside your gated communities and let someone else do your dirty work then that's fine by you. Isn't it?

Puh-leez. So touchy-feely. I can let someone else do my dirty work, because my taxes support those retards in jail.

Maybe we can have them make curtains, or maybe write books on cell decoration suggestions. Sorry bub, not on my dime.

Make prison time HARD. Make them never want to come back. Let the criminal community know if they get locked up it is going to be nightmare.
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tristarenvy
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 6):
Inside the prisons themselves...it should be a jail period.

Agreed. These humps live better than most of us law abiding folks.

Personally, I feel that if you have irrefutable proof of the crime, i.e. video or several trust worthy people, then it should be right to Death Row w/a short date in the chair, or gas chamber, or whatever.

[Edited 2005-12-13 20:24:05]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
My observation is that you've left out the opportunity for an inmate to be rehabilitated. Jail isn't supposed to be all about being punitive. You can also use confinement time to help turn someone around who doesn't know how to do it themselves.

Depending on the infraction that got you there in the first place, I'd agree.

Many thoughts on jail, hard labor, no labor, death penalty . . . .

Death Penalty: As I mentioned in Tookie's thread. I'm a death penalty supporter. But I would most certainly like to see serious reforms, on a national scale, with the way it's treated.

a) Eliminate the endless series of Appeals. You get your one shot at each level of Jurisdiction - not to exceed a period of 24 months (total time, not per jurisdiction) - and then you're done.
b) In order to recieve the death penalty you must - MUST - have at least two of the following against you:
a. Your own admission.
b. Concrete DNA evidence.
c. More than two - not less than two - non-prejudiced EYE-witnesses.
d. Other evidence including but not limited to fingerprints, weapon(s), video/audio tape(s), photograph(s), etc.

Hard Labor: For most minor felony (can you have minor felonies?) crimes, hard labor can be productive. Do the time, work hard, get out. I'm not opposed to chain gangs (without the chains) cleaning the streets, mowing the grass in an interstate median, doing projects to better the community that will save tax payers the $$$.

No Hard Labor: For those with Life in Prison - incorrigibles - no chance of rehabilitation - solitary confinement. No work out room, no chain gangs, no nothing - except the SCotUS mandated cable television.

Parole: There are crimes that should amass a punishment with no chance for parole . . . and there are those that should allow for it. Minor Felony convictions (theft w/o a weapon, etc), should allow for the person to rehabilitate themselves and allow for their early return to society if the parole board deems them fit.

Back to the Death Penalty.

One of the reasons I do not think it's as big a deterrant to crime as some speculate is because of situations just as we had with Tookie - twenty years of appeals with a decent chance (although not in this case) of clemency. Start carrying out the sentences swiftly and with extreme prejudice, not only will we see a drop in crime (I'm convinced of that) but save some money in the long run.

[Edited 2005-12-13 20:23:24]
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Go3Team
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
Where did you get this idea? From television? I'm curious where you came up with these conclusions.

Um, yes. Plus numerous articles in the local paper: http://www.timesdispatch.com search for Richmond City Jail. Plus, I have a family member who has enjoyed the hospitality of the state. Luckily he has improved his life since his visit.
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jwenting
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
Proof? And not just some isolated example.

In this country BY LAW inmates get out after 2/3 of their sentence unless they get bad marks for behaviour (which pretty much means an escape attempt).

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
Proof? Not some isolated example either.

Private television in every cell, every cell has its own toilet and shower, etc. etc.
Maybe not in all prisons but in this country that's the norm.

Many people have it better in prison than on the outside.
Better living conditions, 3 quality meals a day, and a guaranteed income (yes, they get paid here).
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cairo
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:24 am

I would support your reforms if it was proven to have results after, say, 5 or 10 years.

One thing I think is important is to ask why you want them to go to prison:

>punish them
>keep them away from society/to keep you safe
>reform them - teach them to abide by society's rules

Except for serious violent offenders, I personally get no satisfaction from punishing them, but most people do. I think the main thing is to reform them and whatever accomplishes this is what I would support.

Right now the system is a complete failure: prison just breeds better criminals and costs a fortune to maintain. Maybe severe work-crew prison for violent offenders but some real efforts at real reform for everyone else?

Cairo
 
greasespot
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
) Prison reinstitutes hard labor. By hard labor, that means farming fields, laying asphalt for roads, working in a quarry or a mine

In country that is outsourcing its middle class these are high paying jobs...Is it fair to have basically free labour competing with capitialist businesses?


As said in the last thread i would also add the reform that snitches...jail house informants and plea bargains of co defendants would automatically make the accused ineligiable for the DP.
Plus no circumstancial evidence.

Also poor defendants accused of a capital offence would get good council and not the third rate defenders they seem to get now...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
cfalk
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
My observation is that you've left out the opportunity for an inmate to be rehabilitated. Jail isn't supposed to be all about being punitive.

Prison's primary purpose is to keep predators off the street and away from decent folk. The second reason is show the offender that his crime was not worth the price he paid (years of hard labor). That's all prison needs to do.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Prison is removal of liberty and the ability to make one's own decisions. That alone is a serious imposition on the life of a prisoner.

To SOME people. To others it's no big deal, and they can have plenty of fun in the joint as well. It should be hell for everyone.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Physical exercise is one useful way prisoners can burn off excess nervous and physical energy. And you want it stopped?

Not at all. There is no better exercise than hard physical labor. By the time they get back to their cells, they will be too tired to start any shit.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Prisons are "correctional" facilities or hadn't you noticed the name before?

Political correctness of the same sort that calls janitors "custodial engineers". You correct a criminal's behaviour by making him want to be absolutely certain that he never wants to go back to jail. He should be so afraid of more jail time by the time he gets out, he will walk (or run) away if anyone offers him a chance to participate in any crime.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Work should be compulsory, but so should access to learning skills and education.



Bull. They had their chance at education - free public schooling has been available for generations. Now it's time to pay the piper.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Someone like that will emerge from prison violent and resentful, and someone else will get the full force of that resentment.

I want him coming out of prison a BROKEN man! I want him to be timid in the face of societal authority. If he comes out of jail with an attitude of any kind, prison was not hard enough on him.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
Proof? And not just some isolated example.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pandp.htm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
I also feel we need some reform in our justice system, considering that 3% of our population is in JAIL. Says something is screwy in our society if you ask me.

Absolutely. That means that 3% at any one time (plus all those who served time and were freed) considered their crimes to be worth the risk of incarceration. The way to change that is by raising the price.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
I'm not opposed to chain gangs (without the chains) cleaning the streets, mowing the grass in an interstate median, doing projects to better the community that will save tax payers the $$$.

I would keep the chains. A little shame will do them good.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 13):
In country that is outsourcing its middle class these are high paying jobs...Is it fair to have basically free labour competing with capitialist businesses?

There are always jobs that they can do. The government handed out jobs programs in the 1930s that served society, like Hoover Dam. There are plenty of roads, brdges, dams, mines and quarries that could be useful but are too expensive to do normally. Like that bridge to nowhere in Alaska that some Congressmen wanted to build. If we don't have to pay so much for certain projects, they can be built.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
Prison's primary purpose is to keep predators off the street and away from decent folk. The second reason is show the offender that his crime was not worth the price he paid (years of hard labor). That's all prison needs to do.

I'll repeat what WhiteHatter had to say on this subject earlier:

Prisons are "correctional" facilities or hadn't you noticed the name before?
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cfalk
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
Prisons are "correctional" facilities or hadn't you noticed the name before?

Ever heard of "the Rod of Correction"?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
Ever heard of "the Rod of Correction"?

Is that what they used on Michael Fay?
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Thorben
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):

The most useful reply on a.net for quiet some time. I think helping them to live a proper life when they get out is way more useful then destroying them while in prison. The latter would only lead to more crime when they are out.

Quoting KROC (Reply 6):
Not a free college.

Why are they in prison? Mostly because they have no education (Williams couldn't even read or write) which has the consequence of having no perspective in normal life, which forces people into crime. When they are in jail, they should be able to learn something, so that they can get along in an honest way when they get out.

Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 7):
Make prison time HARD. Make them never want to come back. Let the criminal community know if they get locked up it is going to be nightmare.

It'll be a nightmare to meet people out of the nightmare.

Quoting TriStarEnvy (Reply 8):
Agreed. These humps live better than most of us law abiding folks.

What kind of life are you living? Are you jealous of the inmates? Says a lot about your life.

I can't even imagine what life in a prison would be like. I already hated the lack of freedom when I was in the army.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
No Hard Labor: For those with Life in Prison - incorrigibles - no chance of rehabilitation - solitary confinement. No work out room, no chain gangs, no nothing - except the SCotUS mandated cable television.

Nobody should live like that, everybody should have a chance for rehabilitation.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Start carrying out the sentences swiftly and with extreme prejudice, not only will we see a drop in crime (I'm convinced of that) but save some money in the long run.

Start working on the routes of crime, that should lower crime. The US has a way higher murder rate than a country like Germany. Death penalty against 15 years of prison. Ever thought about that?

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 11):
Many people have it better in prison than on the outside.

Interesting perception, maybe you should try prison for a while.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 11):
Better living conditions, 3 quality meals a day, and a guaranteed income (yes, they get paid here).

They get paid here, too. But they earn less per day than a normal person per hour. And I think it is fair to pay them, if what they produce can be sold. Besides, what can they really do with the money? Order from an over-expensive delivery service?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 12):
Except for serious violent offenders, I personally get no satisfaction from punishing them, but most people do.

That's the problem, a lot of people just seem to feel this urge to punish. I wonder what went wrong in their lives.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 12):
Right now the system is a complete failure: prison just breeds better criminals

If it does that, then something is going very wrong.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
Nobody should live like that, everybody should have a chance for rehabilitation.

Why? Didn't give the victim he/she murdered that chance. Like I said . . . there are some crimes that deserve nothing more. And you will notE I said the incorrigibles . . . that doesn't include everyone. I would suggest the multiple offenders, the capital offenders. I left room for rehabilitation, but not much.

The way I see it, the victims of these capital crimes - usually dead victims - didn't get a chance, and I don't think the perpatrator thereof should be able to walk about the planet in 15-20 years able to continue their lives either.

It's a fundamental difference of opinion and interpretation you and I have that won't be resolved in this thread or a hundred others.

Edit: Typos

[Edited 2005-12-14 00:33:38]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bushpilot
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Just like a death sentence never deterred a single murderer, extreme prison conditions will never deter a criminal when they commit the crime.

I agree 100%

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
considering that 3% of our population is in JAIL. Says something is screwy in our society if you ask me.

Yeah plenty of these folks are in for non-violent drug offenses.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 13):
In country that is outsourcing its middle class these are high paying jobs...Is it fair to have basically free labour competing with capitialist businesses?

I would say not, but I dont really think prison labor is making even the slightest dent in quality, quantity or lowering the price or causing more outsourcing. I am surprised large corporations like Nike and such who pay thier employees overseas nothing havent realized that most prisoners in thier jail jobs make 20cents an hour. I think that is cheaper or close to the price they pay thier juvenile employees. Plus think of the street cred Nike would get by having the newest "Lebrons" made in the joint!

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
Like that bridge to nowhere in Alaska that some Congressmen wanted to build. If we don't have to pay so much for certain projects, they can be built.

Just a little clarification about these bridges. They arent to nowhere. Right now half of the poppulation of Alaska, myself included do not have a road connecting thier community to others. These are vital infastructure and this whole thing about them being bridges to nowhere is totally false.
 
cfalk
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:17 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
I can't even imagine what life in a prison would be like. I already hated the lack of freedom when I was in the army.

Sounds like you are a bit spoiled. Many people love the army and spend their entire careers there.

I'm impressed at your complete lack of willingness to compromise. The idea of this thread was that some of us are ready to renounce our support for the death penalty, but only if prisons are made to be more difficult, in order to provide a deterant.

But you insist on not punishing these bastards. Why?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:22 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 11):
Better living conditions, 3 quality meals a day, and a guaranteed income (yes, they get paid here).

40 cents an hour!! rotfl 

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
I feel that prison nowadays is way too easy. You have lots of time to goof off, lift weights, watch TV, hang out with your buddies and teach each other how to make shiv-knives and pick locks for the day when you get out. The worst criminals (like "Tookie"), actually have the best time of it, and wimpy guys learn to take on a tough guy image unless they wanna become someone's bitch. Finally, you almost never serve the time sentenced. 10 years becomes 4 years and out for "good behaviour" (meaning you didn't kill anyone in prison).

Wow, you seem to know alot! Except that this is all incorrect. Have you ever been?
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:25 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
Wow, you seem to know alot! Except that this is all incorrect. Have you ever been?

I've visited Swiss prisons. They are like cheap tourist hotels (but in good condition.)
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
I've visited Swiss prisons.

Be careful, Cfalk ... Fuman has been seen in pink boxers as a guest of Maricopa Co. He has a story to tell.
International Homo of Mystery
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:29 pm

I have both visited and "visited" US prisons and thats not the case. A lot of prisons in the states no longer allow weights, pornography, or smoking. Yes quite a few people do have TVs or radios, but the administration wants them to stay occupied and out of trouble. Ask any guard if he would prefer to have TVs gone and they would give you a definitive no.

As for parole, I've never seen 40% time served. Illegal immigrants do 50% in AZ and then they're sent back. Everyone else does 80% mandatory. Some choose to do their full sentence rather than take parole/probation.

[Edited 2005-12-14 07:42:55]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:32 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 24):
Be careful, Cfalk ... Fuman has been seen in pink boxers as a guest of Maricopa Co. He has a story to tell.

Wise ass Smile

I've done some state time too. Some of it was max. I also have a brother who has been in for 15 years. I've visited him at a number of facilities and believe that I know more about the US penal system than most.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:35 pm

This should be good. Cfalk vs. Fuman. I'm making popcorn. I'll even share.
International Homo of Mystery
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:54 pm

I don't mean to be confrontational, I'm sure that Cfalk's experiences are true for Swiss prison- its just that I always hear people's opinions of how easy prison is (in the US) when they don't have any real knowledge.
If I do start to get confrontational it is because of too much beer and I will certainly apologize the next day. Smile
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:14 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
40 cents an hour!!

That'd never pay for their cocaine...
Earlier this year prison inmates here went on strike for better conditions, they demanded retirement pay I believe.
They got their demands met too...
Says something doesn't it?
I wish I were flying
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
1) Prison reinstitutes hard labor. By hard labor, that means farming fields, laying asphalt for roads, working in a quarry or a mine. It should be tough, back-breaking work for 6 days per week, 8 to 12 hours per day. The rest of the time they are in their cells or at the mess hall.

Definitely bring back the chain gangs. I'm all for it.

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
2) Eliminate the parole system. If you get sentenced to 10 years, by God you will serve 10 years, and not a day less.

Nahhh...if the inmate is really trying to be on his/her best behavior and being a "model prisoner", then they should be "rewarded" with early parole.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):
Nice cushy cells too. Have you been in one? Nope, didn't think so.

Have you? If not, don't be throwing stones in glass houses, eh?

As for the death penalty, I'm all for it. We need to execute, the sooner the better, the following convicted groups that have repeatedly demonstrated their lack of remorse for their crimes:

- cop killers, especially if under the influence of drugs at the time
- child rapists and molesters
- child killers
- serial killers

Now, with that said, anyone on death row that is truly innocent, based on DNA proof, should be freed at once. Anyone on death row who has demonstrated their remorse and repeatedly apologized for their crime and tries to make some good out of their lives, then they should have their sentence commuted.

I'm fed up with seeing these unremorseful animals defended by the likes of the Pope and Catholic Church, feel-good liberals in the big cities, and of course by the Europeans. If these people feel so badly for these animals, then by all means we should release them in liberal cities like LA, SF, NYC, and especially in Europe. The people who feel sorry for them can take responsibility and feed them and "rehabilitate" them.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Thorben
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Why? Didn't give the victim he/she murdered that chance.

Just because they did wrong doesn't mean that we have to do wrong, too. Everybody deserves to have the chance to improve themself and become a contributing member of society.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
It's a fundamental difference of opinion and interpretation you and I have that won't be resolved in this thread or a hundred others.

What is your base of opinion? That you think people are diveded into "the good ones" and "the evil ones" and that nobody ever changes sides? And do you feel better when you see others suffer?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
Sounds like you are a bit spoiled. Many people love the army and spend their entire careers there.

Everyone can have their own preferences. For me, the army was a waste of time and a lack of freedom.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
I'm impressed at your complete lack of willingness to compromise. The idea of this thread was that some of us are ready to renounce our support for the death penalty, but only if prisons are made to be more difficult, in order to provide a deterant.

The death penalty has already failed to be deterrant. What you need is rather to give the people the chance to live a life without crime.

The idea of the way that jails are is that you have less released former criminals committing crimes again. The things that you suggest would result in a higher rate of "return". (Is there actually an English word for something like "Rückfallquote"?)


Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
But you insist on not punishing these bastards. Why?

Who spoke of "not punishing"? Imprisonment is a punishment. And it has to be there. But everybody, regardless of what they did, has to have the perspective of getting out some day, unless they are declared "menatlly ill". (By a doctor, not by the rabble.) And when everybody has the chance to get out, then prison needs to be in a way that they learn to live the life of a law-abiding citizien.

What I would like to know is, why do you insist on punishment for the sake of itself? What gives you this urge to have others punished?

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 30):
If these people feel so badly for these animals

They aren't animals, that's the problem.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
Just because they did wrong doesn't mean that we have to do wrong, too.

Agreed. Wrong is perception. Your perception: Death penalty is wrong. My perception: Death Penalty is not wrong. Round and round we go.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
Everybody deserves to have the chance to improve themself and become a contributing member of society.

Negative. Many deserve a chance to improve themselves, and become a contributing member, not all. Many deserve to be locked away forever, or simply eliminated so they may do no further harm to society. Again, round and round we go.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
What is your base of opinion?

That people who take a life, in a vicious, cruel, calculated manner - e.g. Tookie - deserve no better than execution. No better than they gave their victims. Deserve no position in society. Deserve nothing - afterall, they gave their victims the same sentence . . . left the victims with nothing.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
That you think people are diveded into "the good ones" and "the evil ones" and that nobody ever changes sides?

Nope, not at all. There is always possibility for change.

That said: It amazes me to no end when a convicted killer suddenly "finds religion" or starts to write childrens books after they've been told their next stop is the execution chamber. Too damn late now hero. No sympathy for that crap.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
And do you feel better when you see others suffer?

No . . . only a nutjob would feel better about it. Do you feel better when you see the victims family suffer? I'm sure you don't - only a nutjob would feel better.

I simply support the extermination of cold blooded, calculating murderers. The quicker the better. Without all the wrangling in the courts for decades, without all the bullshit about 'I found religion' or 'I'm being unfairly persecuted' or 'I write children's books now', blah blah blah. Shoulda thought about finding God before you killed a family of three innocent people there Tookie.

We can continue to go round and round. You and I differ on most opinions, and this is certainly one of them.

Edit: Typo

[Edited 2005-12-14 17:36:23]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KROC
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
Why are they in prison? Mostly because they have no education (Williams couldn't even read or write) which has the consequence of having no perspective in normal life, which forces people into crime. When they are in jail, they should be able to learn something, so that they can get along in an honest way when they get out.

Why are they in prison? because they commited a crime. Not having an education doesn't mean one has to kill, steal, rape, whatever. Its just not an excuse. And when murderers are in jail getting 3 square meals a day, T.V., FREE college courses/degrees, time to work out, a roof over their heads etc, all stuff I have to work my ass off to have, sorry if I don't buy a lack of education as the cause of them turning to crime. Should society do more to help people like this before they turn to crime...probably, but its still no excuse.
 
WellHung
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:33 am

Huh, huh, huh. You said penal...

Unfortunately it will be difficult to convert the majority since so many sickos support the death penalty because they enjoy seeing criminals get killed, want revenge or think these people 'deserve' it - and not because they consider the death penalty 'justice' or a deterrent.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 34):
Unfortunately it will be difficult to convert the majority since so many sickos support the death penalty because they enjoy seeing criminals get killed, want revenge or think these people 'deserve' it - and not because they consider the death penalty 'justice' or a deterrent.

Well, the death penalty has long been disproved that it is a deterrent, and whether it is justice or not is debatable. And dancing on the graves of the executed is no better than the attitude of that killer when they committed the original act. This kind of delectatio morosa merely comes off as self-righteous sadomasochism.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Thorben
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:08 am

ANC, you've been doing any dancing classes lately? (Because you always speak of going round and round.)

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Agreed. Wrong is perception. Your perception: Death penalty is wrong. My perception: Death Penalty is not wrong. Round and round we go.

OK.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Negative. Many deserve a chance to improve themselves, and become a contributing member, not all. Many deserve to be locked away forever, or simply eleiminated so they may do no further harm to society.

If they are locked up for a very long time and treated the right way, they'll understand their guilt, which means that they have to live the rest of their live with it, and they'll pose an extremely low risk to society when released. And I mean everybody, because

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
There is always possibility for change.

In case someone has doubts that they are harmless to society, they can be kept in jail, but it has to be checked regularly weather they have changed. I would also support measures like step-by-step release, meaning they have a period where they only get out a couple of hours per day.

But nobody should be locked away without any possibility of ever getting out again.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
That people who take a life, in a vicious, cruel, calculated manner - e.g. Tookie - deserve no better than execution. No better than they gave their victims. Deserve no position in society. Deserve nothing - afterall, they gave their victims the same sentence . . . left the victims with nothing.

They caused death and grief and we consider that to be a crime. Yet we (rather the DP-fans) are willing to do the same as a response. Or in other words: They are killing people to show that killing people is wrong.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
No . . . only a nutjob would feel better about it. Do you feel better when you see the victims family suffer? I'm sure you don't - only a nutjob would feel better.

I don't feel better when anyone suffers. Only frustrated people do feel better then, because they have somebody to look down at. They can say: "That person is even worse off than me, hihi." But I think a lot of people like that exist.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
We can continue to go round and round. You and I differ on most opinions, and this is certainly one of them.

Of course we can continue. What's the point of arguing with people that agree with you? You can still try to convince me.

Quoting KROC (Reply 33):
Why are they in prison? because they commited a crime. Not having an education doesn't mean one has to kill, steal, rape, whatever. Its just not an excuse.

Did I say the word "excuse" somewhere? The point is that there is a correlation between the lack of education and the willingness to commit a crime.

Quoting KROC (Reply 33):
And when murderers are in jail getting 3 square meals a day, T.V., FREE college courses/degrees, time to work out, a roof over their heads etc, all stuff I have to work my ass off to have, sorry if I don't buy a lack of education as the cause of them turning to crime.

Jealous? I'd rather work for my meals and live in freedom than have the meals free in a prison. And again, lack of education leads to crime.

Quoting KROC (Reply 33):
Should society do more to help people like this before they turn to crime...probably, but its still no excuse.

I agree with this phrase, since I never spoke of excuses.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
KROC
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 35):
and whether it is justice or not is debatable.

If you execute someone who say killed 3 or 4 or 10 people, how is it not justice? The killer took it upon himself to decide whether people should live or die, so if convicted that killer should have his right to live or die judged upon as well.
 
cfalk
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
In case someone has doubts that they are harmless to society, they can be kept in jail,

You cannot do that. Recall the big scandal in NY a few weeks ago when the governor refused to release prisoners because their sentances were over, but everyone knew that they were still dangerous and were bound to kill/rape again. You cannot change the sentence afterwards.

Here's the deal. Over the past many years, conditions in prisons have gotten better and better (TV, schooling, etc.). But at the same time, as the statistics I posted earlier show, the percentage of released convicts committing crimes again has increased as well. If they don't seem to mind coming back, I'd say there is a serious problem. Don't you agree that they should not want to come back?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
ANC, you've been doing any dancing classes lately? (Because you always speak of going round and round.)

 laughing 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
If they are locked up for a very long time and treated the right way, they'll understand their guilt, which means that they have to live the rest of their live with it, and they'll pose an extremely low risk to society when released.

Disagree . . . .

Some will, some won't. Did Tookie apologize for his actions? Nope . . . .

The screwball nutcases that prey on kids and kill for fun or are mentally challenged won't understand anything. As for the screwballs who are mentally challenged - get them help. The others - adios. Exterminate them.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
And I mean everybody, because

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
There is always possibility for change.

You quoted me completely out of context Thorben . . . don't do that. Makes me look like John Kerry and you might end up looking foolish.

My entire quote and in proper context:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
That you think people are diveded into "the good ones" and "the evil ones" and that nobody ever changes sides?

Nope, not at all. There is always possibility for change.

That said: It amazes me to no end when a convicted killer suddenly "finds religion" or starts to write childrens books after they've been told their next stop is the execution chamber. Too damn late now hero. No sympathy for that crap.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
But nobody should be locked away without any possibility of ever getting out again.

Ok, I respect your position, but I disagree . . . . of course, you knew that was coming  wink . Some people simply do not need to be a part of society . . . period.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
They caused death and grief and we consider that to be a crime. Yet we (rather the DP-fans) are willing to do the same as a response. Or in other words: They are killing people to show that killing people is wrong.

Calculating, cold blooded killers - a.k.a. Tookie or Kenneth Lee Boyd - are not people - they are animals. Normal "people" don't break into houses and purposefully, diligently, with contempt and cold blooded calculation shoot a family of three with a shotgun. No "people" do that. Animals do that. They deserve no better treatment that what Tookie got.

More "Round and Round" eh, Thorben?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
You cannot do that. Recall the big scandal in NY a few weeks ago when the governor refused to release prisoners because their sentances were over, but everyone knew that they were still dangerous and were bound to kill/rape again. You cannot change the sentence afterwards.

Over here you can. When people are considered too dangerous they can be put in a detention after their sentence is over. (Has to be ordered by courts, not governors.) It can even be applied when they are found to be too dangerous during their sentence, but not for the original crime. Of course somebody sued over this and the constitutional court decided it that it was OK, but in order to protect those people's rights, their status of being too dangerous has to be checked regularly, IIRC every two years. I think that is a good basis for a balance of the rights of society and the rights of the individual.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 38):
Here's the deal. Over the past many years, conditions in prisons have gotten better and better (TV, schooling, etc.). But at the same time, as the statistics I posted earlier show, the percentage of released convicts committing crimes again has increased as well. If they don't seem to mind coming back, I'd say there is a serious problem. Don't you agree that they should not want to come back?

Of course I agree that the main aim should be that they don't become criminal again. The question is how to achive that. In Germany, we made good experiences with "softer" prison. It can get too soft, I agree with that. However, I think that education is a right thing to do. Increases the chances to get a job which increases the chance of the person to live honest.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Disagree . . . .

Some will, some won't. Did Tookie apologize for his actions? Nope . . . .

I guess most will after they had enough time to think about it. Concerning Tookie, how can he claim that he didn't do it and apologize at the same time?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
The screwball nutcases that prey on kids and kill for fun or are mentally challenged won't understand anything. As for the screwballs who are mentally challenged - get them help. The others - adios. Exterminate them.

Who kills for fun? Maybe in the movies, but I think that is extremely rare in the real world.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
You quoted me completely out of context Thorben . . . don't do that. Makes me look like John Kerry and you might end up looking foolish.

My entire quote and in proper context:

John Kerry is a nice person.

Anyway, why don't you think that it is real when they say they changed?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Ok, I respect your position, but I disagree . . . . of course, you knew that was coming . Some people simply do not need to be a part of society . . . period.

I think they need a break from society sometimes, but when they have changed, they can come back.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Calculating, cold blooded killers - a.k.a. Tookie or Kenneth Lee Boyd -

What do you know about Boyd? Try this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lee_Boyd

Quote Dr. John Warren diagnosed chronic depression, alcohol abuse disorder, dependant personality disorder, and a reading disability. He had an IQ of 77, placing him into "borderline deficiency" region of the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, one level above "mild mental retardation".

So, is he a calculating, cold blooded killer, or rather someone who is mentally challenged?


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
not people - they are animals. Normal "people" don't break into houses and purposefully, diligently, with contempt and cold blooded calculation shoot a family of three with a shotgun. No "people" do that. Animals do that. They deserve no better treatment that what Tookie got.

Animals don't talk, animals can't feel sorry, animals can't think of the consequences of what they do. These people are people, no matter what. They can talk and they have a human brain. Although I agree that they are not "normal people".

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
More "Round and Round" eh, Thorben?

Of course, but I won't reply today, I have other things to do now.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Banco
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Did Tookie apologize for his actions? Nope . . . .

As I understand it, he always denied guilt throughout the period he was in gaol. Now, generally speaking I concur with you that many don't, but when someone maintains their innocence (rightly or wrongly) you can't expect them to apologise, can you?

Tragically, when you do have genuine miscarriages of justice, it is often worse for the individual concerned, because they maintain that same innocence throughout and thus disqualify themselves for parole.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
I guess most will after they had enough time to think about it.

You "guess"? Theory or fact? Even if it's supported with a source, how can you be sure? Would you want to be the person that signed the release papers, only to find a killer back on the streets, repeating his/her transgressions a week, a month, a year later?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Maybe in the movies, but I think that is extremely rare in the real world.

I rarely watch that crap on TV/Theater . . . too much BS.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Who kills for fun?

Well, IMO, Tookie. And this meathead:
http://www.adn.com/front/story/3783054p-3809736c.html
and this asshole . . .
http://www.adn.com/front/story/5117755p-5044129c.html
I could go on . . .

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
John Kerry is a nice person.

Agreed . . . and a flip flopper which was the meaning of the use in my previous post (wink}

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
I think they need a break from society sometimes, but when they have changed, they can come back.

As we both agree that some may change, and some deserve parole, I don't want to make the blanket statement that "when they've changed they can come back". With that I disagree. As I've said above - some folks simply must be removed from society. Some deserve no other chance. Some must be exterminated. And besides - how would you know they changed??? Take their word for it?? Baaaah.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
So, is he a calculating, cold blooded killer, or rather someone who is mentally challenged?

From your link: ""On March 4, 1988 he went to the house of her father, where she and their children were living, while Boyd and Julie were separated once again. He told police that he found the door unlocked and entered with a .357 Magnum pistol. Seeing a silhouette that he thought was Thomas, he fired and hit him. He continued firing as he moved through the house, finding Julie in the kitchen. While reloading he heard her moan and so shot her again. He fired at anything that moved and then rang 9-1-1 and told police to "come and get me." When they arrived, Boyd emerged from nearby woods and surrendered. He gave a full confession after being read his Miranda warning.""
Answer to your Question: Cold, Calculated Killer. He went to that house with the predetermined calculation to kill . . . please note the bold print above.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Of course, but I won't reply today, I have other things to do now.

OK . . . see you tomorrow . . . I'm leaving work tomorrow flying back to ANC so if I'm not on right away in the morning (Alaska Time) I'll be on in the late afternoon (Alaska Time) . . . which I believe to be 12 hours difference from Germany.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
9VSPO
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
when you do have genuine miscarriages of justice, it is often worse for the individual concerned

No shit Sherlock!  Smile

I must admit, I saw the pics in the papers today of the chamber where the guy was executed and it was pretty horrific and scary. Yes I agree that what these people do is barbaric but to me it just makes us animals just like them. I don't understand how a country can still get away with this. The death penalty does not work. It's sick and barbaric and it makes you as bad as the person who is being executed.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
They aren't animals, that's the problem.

The simple fact that they chose to act like animals and that fact got them into jail to begin with, they should be treated like how they acted, if it was up to me.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
9VSPO
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 44):
they chose to act like animals and that fact got them into jail to begin with

So let's imagine for one second, you wake up tomorrow and are accused for a crime you are innocent of. The evidence is there but you know you are innocent. Would you still advocate the death penalty?
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 43):
No shit Sherlock!

Now, now. As a Brit you're supposed to be more than aware of the power of understatement.  Wink
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 37):
If you execute someone who say killed 3 or 4 or 10 people, how is it not justice?

Justice can also be about living into old age with the reality and implications of what one did weighing on your conscience.

Quoting KROC (Reply 37):
The killer took it upon himself to decide whether people should live or die, so if convicted that killer should have his right to live or die judged upon as well.

The death penalty in this country is not about justice. It's about revenge. Somehow I would like to think we have a somewhat higher moral standard in dealing with violent criminals than to sink to their level of the conception of human life. The criminal kills because in some way or another they hold a very low perception of human life. We then execute them on the pretext they are scum, based upon the very same low perception of human life. It's a viscious cycle that does not end with the execution of one individual.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 11):
Better living conditions, 3 quality meals a day, and a guaranteed income (yes, they get paid here).

They get paid here, too. But they earn less per day than a normal person per hour. And I think it is fair to pay them, if what they produce can be sold. Besides, what can they really do with the money? Order from an over-expensive delivery service?

Here prisoners will have to work, if possible, either for the upkeep of the prison itself (prison laundry shop, kitchen, cleaning) or in special shops, which often accept outside orders (e.g. the office furniture for German government departments often is manufactured in prisons). Uneducated prisoners have the same time due to this work to e.g. finish high school and do an apprenticeship in a trade. This is no problem here since second level and vocational education here is generally free anyway and there is care taken that they don't compete with private business outside.
The wages hey earn is much less than what they would earn outside (think about it as paying for accomodation and food), they will receive a small amount every month they can use to buy goods in the prison shop, like coffee, cigarettes, sweets and sanitary articles like soap. The rest goes on an account and will be saved up for the day the prisoner gets released, so that he has a little bit of money saved to start a new life and to carry him through the first days out of jail, so that he doesn't have to turn to crime again just to survive (rehgistering at the unemployment office as looking for work, finding accomodation etc. takes a few days).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
cfalk
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RE: Death Penalty And Penal Reforms

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 47):
Justice can also be about living into old age with the reality and implications of what one did weighing on your conscience.

You assume that everyone has a concience. Some people do not.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.

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