Lutenist
Topic Author
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 4:29 am

The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:10 am

If America is to retain, or perhaps I should say resume (after having handed victory to oppression-loving terrorists these past 4 years), the name of Freedom's Champion, we'll need more good news like this:

From today's Globe & Mail:

Washington — The U.S. Senate on Friday rejected attempts to reauthorize several provisions of the USA Patriot Act as infringing too much on Americans' privacy, dealing a major defeat to U.S. President George W. Bush and Republican leaders.

In a crucial vote Friday morning as Congress raced toward adjournment, the bill's Senate supporters were not able to garner the 60 votes necessary to overcome a threatened filibuster by Senators Russ Feingold, a Wisconsin Democrat, and Larry Craig, an Idaho Republican, and their allies. The final vote was 52-47

Mr. Bush, Attorney-General Alberto Gonzales and Republican congressional leaders had lobbied fiercely to make most of the expiring Patriot Act provisions permanent, and add new safeguards and expiration dates to the two most controversial parts: roving wiretaps and secret warrants for books, records and other items from businesses, hospitals and organizations such as libraries.


I'm not being overly optimistic, am I?
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Lutenist (Thread starter):

I think your username got misspelled somehow. Shouldn't it read "Leftist"? I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Lutenist
Topic Author
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I think your username got misspelled somehow. Shouldn't it read "Leftist"?

And I always thought it was the rightists who were more eager to limit government intervention into thier private matters.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!

You and me both, brother.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:18 am

StuckinMAF:
I am a "leftist" with a United States flag next to my username.
Now what?  

By the way, StuckinMAF is a cool username.  

[Edited 2005-12-16 21:24:11]
Bring back the Concorde
 
MattRB
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:19 am

'Cause lord knows those lefties are tree-huggin,' democracy hatin' fascists, right?  Yeah sure

Good on the Senate for getting that one done. Now, if they could just repeal the whole bloody mess that is USA PATRIOT and actually come up with some coherent legislation instead of that massive kneejerk reaction of a bill..
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
daedaeg
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
'Cause lord knows those lefties are tree-huggin,' democracy hatin' fascists, right?

Hey if the shoe fits.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 5):
Hey if the shoe fits.

...but it doesn't.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 2):
And I always thought it was the rightists who were more eager to limit government intervention into thier private matters.

 checkmark  Only in this case they get to infringe on our rights in the name of freedom. Glad to see this shot down. {big thumbs up}

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
I am a "leftist" with a United States flag next to my username.

As am I. What about it?

Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
coherent legislation

That's asking a bit much, don't you think?
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
MattRB
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 7):
Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
coherent legislation

That's asking a bit much, don't you think?

Yeah, true.. y'all would have to have legislators that care more about their country then their own image/political aspirations..

This is not to say that there are not those congresscritters and senators who do serve their country well, and do so out of a sense of duty and patriotism - but rather that they are overshadowed, IMO, by those seeking their positions for ulterior motives (power, greed, etc) rather than helping their country grow and prosper.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:05 am

I wouldn't get all too happy about it yet. On Wednesday the House voted 251-174 to renew 14 of the 16 expiring provisions in the Patriot Act, and it got hung up in the Senate on the compromise bill.

A victory for personal rights, for sure, but it wasn't an overwhelming victory.

[Edited 2005-12-16 22:07:17]
International Homo of Mystery
 
Lutenist
Topic Author
Posts: 280
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:10 am

I wonder why StuckinMAF and Daedaeg, bless their hearts, would accuse anyone who opposes the PATRIOT Act of being a leftist. Is it simply because we oppose a key Bush piece of legislation? That would be taking a rather narrow view of things--i.e., rightists side with Bush and Republicans in all matters, while leftists oppose Bush and Republicans in all matters.

In any case, I feel that what is at issue here is an unjustified intervention, through the PATRIOT Act, into personal liberties and private matters. The threats facing a society as secure and a nation as mighty as the USA don't justify such draconian legislation. Unjustified limits placed on personal liberties and privacy, two fundaments of American-style liberty, is handing victory to the terrorists and others who oppose America.

This is why I feel that a curtailment of the PATRIOT Act is a good thing.
 
Superfly
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:12 am

One the most conservative members of the House, Ralph Hall (R-TX) is the most voacl oponenet of the Patriot Act.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mham001
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:37 am

So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?
 
qr332
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 12):
So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

About as much as the US had to do with Iraq when it invaded it.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
MattRB
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 12):
So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

Other than the fact that any and all personal information housed on US servers/stored by US companies becomes fair game regardless of the country of residence of the person in question?

Nothing. Nothing at all.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
texan
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:15 am

I have been happy all day because of this! Way to go Russ and Larry, et al!

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
SFOMEX
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:16 am

I find ironic that what really failed was the vote to invoke cloture and then getting a vote over the Patriot Act itself (the Dems are filibustering the bill). If they could vote, the senate would approve it even if by a slim majority.

Democracy in action folks...
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
gigneil
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:27 am

Thank god the left has some balls.

Majority rules sucks, that's why the filibuster has stood for generations.

N
 
bushpilot
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:33 am

The Patriot Act is bad legislation all around and I think it should be gotten rid of. It was something that was voted in during the aftermath of 9/11 where anyone who would have voted against it would have been chastised. In terms of limiting personal privacy to american citizens, this whole bill is BS. Dont bash Canadians or anyone for that matter for being against the patriot act. This is straight out of Nazi Germany...people must give up some of thier personal liberties for the war against (fill in whatever usergroup you like here i.e jews, terrorists, etc) but in reality is allows the government to spy on its own citizens for no real reason without the oversights of courts. The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.
 
Logan22L
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:59 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The Patriot Act is bad legislation all around and I think it should be gotten rid of. It was something that was voted in during the aftermath of 9/11 where anyone who would have voted against it would have been chastised.

 checkmark 

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
In terms of limiting personal privacy to american citizens, this whole bill is BS.

 checkmark 

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.

 checkmark 
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 16):
Democracy in action folks...

Yeah, just like this. . . Shocked Lawmakers Demand Spy Program Probe

Seems, if true, that even the Patriot Act wasn't enough for our Prez, so he authorized the NSA to eavesdrop without any warrents at all. Again, if these allegations prove true, I'd say that Sen. Feingold hit it on the head, "I don't want to hear again from the attorney general or anyone on this floor that this government has shown it can be trusted to use the power we give it with restraint and care,"
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.

I would amplify this and say that in light of the current elections in Iraq, considering our participation to bring democracy there, we'd be literally shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't preserve basic civil liberties here.

And don't misunderstand, I realize there are bad people out there who need to be dealt with, but do it right. At the end of the day we're a nation of laws, and they must not be usurped.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Lutenist
Topic Author
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 12):
So what exactly does the Patriot Act have to do with a canuck?

The US is the country that exerts the greatest influence on political, cultural, and social currents in the Land of the Canuck. The current administration is the most paranoid, insular, arrogant, and chauvinistic administration the US has seen in a long time. Its world influence has been mostly negative these past four years. Perhaps today's defeat means that its overall influence, and, thus, its influence on Canada, is on the wane.
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 22):
Perhaps today's defeat means that its overall influence, and, thus, its influence on Canada, is on the wane.

Unfortunatly dont think this will be the case. I think other news coming out about the president allowing the NSA to spy on American citizens without court warrants is as big a problem as the patriot act.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 17):
Majority rules sucks, that's why the filibuster has stood for generations.

Majority rules is the ONLY way things can be done. That's not to say that the rights of the minority are not protected, but to say 'majority rules sucks' makes you just as bad as the fascist ideologies people like you say you're against.

Being a left-wing liberal is about freedom of thought, ideas and speech and democracy. For all those things to exist, it has been shown repeatedly over thousands of years that a majority rules system is the only one that works.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
rwsea
Posts: 2423
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I think your username got misspelled somehow. Shouldn't it read "Leftist"? I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!

You and your partisan politics and name-calling. Someone is against the patriot act (and rightly so!) and you immediately cry "Lefty!!". Why does it always have to be yes vs. no, black vs. white? When did people stop thinking for themselves and allow a "party" to make their mind up for them?

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
The Patriot Act is bad legislation all around and I think it should be gotten rid of. It was something that was voted in during the aftermath of 9/11 where anyone who would have voted against it would have been chastised. In terms of limiting personal privacy to american citizens, this whole bill is BS. Dont bash Canadians or anyone for that matter for being against the patriot act. This is straight out of Nazi Germany...people must give up some of thier personal liberties for the war against (fill in whatever usergroup you like here i.e jews, terrorists, etc) but in reality is allows the government to spy on its own citizens for no real reason without the oversights of courts. The patriot act in terms of legislation is the biggest threat to American liberties and privacy.

I agree with you 100% - you are completely spot-on. The Patriot Act was one of the most offensive in a long-line of over-reactions after 9/11. Things that allow the government to spy on people, not to mention search their home without ever having to tell them, are more reminiscent of East Germany and the Stasi than red white and blue. In the 1990s we celebrated the end of communism in Eastern Europe, saying that Freedom won the cold war. Today, the US is rapidly becoming one of the less-free countries in the west. We already are allowing a secret police, in the form of Federal Air Marshals (who now may be expanding to public transportation such as trains and ferries). Now the government can pretty much look into anyone of us at any time, in quite invasive ways, without our consent or even with our knowledge. It's becoming quite scary.

And your Nazi Germany example is also dead-on. Hitler took advantage of people's fears to systematically (and legally) turn a democracy into a facist dictatorship by temporarily suspending rights like freedom of the press, in the interest of "national security". Just how many rights are Americans willing to give away for this cause?

Will it ever stop? I don't think so. The "war on terror" isn't something like Vietnam or World War II that officially ends with a treaty or a pullout. This is something that could literally go on for the rest of our lives. Are we willing to continue to permanently give away rights in the name of "fighting terror"? Looks like the "war on terror" has already been lost to me.
 
bushpilot
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:00 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 25):
Will it ever stop? I don't think so. The "war on terror" isn't something like Vietnam or World War II that officially ends with a treaty or a pullout.

Not with this administration. This Orwellian straight out of 1984. The never ending war. In the weeks after 9-11 the Bush administration did thier very best to scare the bejesus out of the average american citizen. "we can be attacked at anytime" etc etc etc. I was one who from the day 9-11 happened that said if we change our way of life then the terrorists win.
9-11 as a single act of terror was 1000x more succesful than they could have ever dreamed. Billions if not trillions spent on "making us safer" at the airport. Billions on the war in Afghanistan where we have not caught OBL over 4 years afterwards. I think we have sent in the wrong folks. Lets sick the IRS on him. He would have been caught in 3 weeks. The Iraq war. The patriot act. This was all a response to 9-11. Now just about every politician is afraid of what a handful of idiots can do with some explosives. We as a country defeat terrorism by not letting it change us. In that sense...we have already lost and it started with the freedoms we lost through the Patriot act. Now im going to check out the Al Jazeera website and go borrow a book from the library about Saladin.
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:59 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 25):
RwSEA



Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 26):
Bushpilot

Some worthy young liberal guards. Remember to stay this way when you're 40, 50 & 60. I've actually grown more liberal with age. The idiots who say "if you're a conservative at 20, you have no soul...if you're a liberal at 40, you have no brain" have neither a soul nor a brain. Just a huge mortgage and a vendetta against people who are needy.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Lutenist (Thread starter):
(after having handed victory to oppression-loving terrorists these past 4 years)

Utter horseshit. Elected rightfully and honestly . . . .your opinion here is inflammatory and sets the tone for yet another thread that is instantly blatantly biased and useless.

IF you'd left this out of your thread opener it would have been a valuable thread.

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 2):
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!

You and me both, brother.

And I -

That said: why even bother with thread if you don't give a shit? Why waste out time?

Now, on the the Patriot Act . . . several sections need a lot of revision . . . some are just fine. I have no issues with most of it . . . as I've said in the past, if you're not breaking the law - of thinking of breaking the law - or a terrorist asshole - or sending money to a terrorist asshole, what's the big deal. Don't sweat it. My life hasn't changed a bit because of the Patriot Act - and I'll bet a good beer or three yours hasn't either. This just gives you some chicken hearts something else to bitch about.

Let it ride, I don't care. Doesn't affect me, hasn't affected me . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:09 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 28):
Now, on the the Patriot Act . . . several sections need a lot of revision . . . some are just fine. I have no issues with most of it . . . as I've said in the past, if you're not breaking the law - of thinking of breaking the law - or a terrorist asshole - or sending money to a terrorist asshole, what's the big deal. Don't sweat it. My life hasn't changed a bit because of the Patriot Act - and I'll bet a good beer or three yours hasn't either. This just gives you some chicken hearts something else to bitch about.

Let it ride, I don't care. Doesn't affect me, hasn't affected me . . .

What he said.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
mham001
Posts: 4237
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 22):
The US is the country that exerts the greatest influence on political, cultural, and social currents in the Land of the Canuck. The current administration is the most paranoid, insular, arrogant, and chauvinistic administration the US has seen in a long time. Its world influence has been mostly negative these past four years. Perhaps today's defeat means that its overall influence, and, thus, its influence on Canada, is on the wane.

You haven't answered the question. How does the Patriot Act affect you as a Canadian? It doesn't and your criticism of US internal politics is no better than the diplomat who pissed you off last week. What will it be, freely offer your criticisms of another countrys' internal policies, or accept some outside critcism of your own?
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:24 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 16):
Democracy in action folks...

Isn't that the beauty of the fillibuster, a right guaranteed in our consitution of our democratic government? Oh wait, you only approve if the Republicans are using the filibuster...
NO URLS in signature
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 20):
I'd say that Sen. Feingold hit it on the head, "I don't want to hear again from the attorney general or anyone on this floor that this government has shown it can be trusted to use the power we give it with restraint and care,"

Remove the words "to use the power we give it with restraint and care" from that statement and what do you get? An even more true statement!  biggrin 

Quoting MattRB (Reply 4):
Now, if they could just repeal the whole bloody mess that is USA PATRIOT and actually come up with some coherent legislation instead of that massive kneejerk reaction of a bill..

To be fair, some of the measures in the Patriot Act are necessary (better coordination between different intel departments, for instance). That doesn't change the fact that it was rushed through way too fast, contains a great deal of useless stuff, and gives the executive branch way too much power, nor does it change the fact that it needs serious overhauling, but I will admit that there are certain parts of it that need to be kept.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:33 am

Not to rekindle for a larger flame, but has ANYone here on this forum been PERSONALLY "ripped" by the USA Feds (or even really inconvenienced for that matter) because of the Patriot Act?

As this is a (designed by me) non-scientific survey, answers that use references to media reports, irrespective of alluded or actually proven political biases by various media should not be referred to, as well as "she said, he said" rumor reports and other published and heresay crap.

Again, has ANYone here been personally subject to abnormal scrutiny by the US govment that has resulted in a specific negative in your own benign lifestyle? Hmmm... Bet I won't get a whole bunch of "yes" answers with specifics...regards...jack
(P.S. Wifey and I were put into the "glass box" @BNA for a one-way to DTW to pick up a new car. I don't consider that being as much "big brother" as a just a light-hearted diversion. Live with it and STFU).
all best; jack
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 33):
has ANYone here on this forum been PERSONALLY "ripped" by the USA Feds (or even really inconvenienced for that matter) because of the Patriot Act?



Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 33):
has ANYone here been personally subject to abnormal scrutiny by the US govment that has resulted in a specific negative in your own benign lifestyle?

Me personally, no. But then, I've had a Secret Service file since I was 16, and an FBI file since my early 30s. Couldn't give a flip. At least if there's something where they need my fingerprints, they're already on file.

I did watch what happened with Brandon Mayfield in my own back yard, however, and the same information could have been sought going through normal channels.

We are a nation of laws. Obey them and you won't get into trouble goes both ways.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Lutenist
Topic Author
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 4:29 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 30):
How does the Patriot Act affect you as a Canadian?

In no specific way as yet. However, because I greatly value the right to personal privacy, it worries me whenever there are signs that the light of freedom shines a little less brightly within Canada's most important partner.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 28):
it would have been a valuable thread.

It hasn't been entirely without value. I believe there have been some constructive replies and some valuable insights.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 30):
the diplomat who pissed you off last week

No diplomat pissed me off last week. Perhaps you generalize a bit too much. I don't represent Canada. If you refer to your ambassador to Canada, I must say I thought he made some valid points.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 30):
What will it be, freely offer your criticisms of another countrys' internal policies, or accept some outside critcism of your own?

I shall do both. I shall offer criticism and accept outside criticism of my own country. I've often criticised Canadians at large for being so bloody eager to rant about the US while refusing to take a good hard look at themselves. I've many criticisms of my own country to make, but that would be the topic of another thread. If you were to take a careful read of my post, I think you'd have to agree that I'm not criticising the US per se; I'm chiefly criticizing a piece of legislation that's bad for the one foreign country which, admittedly, I generally admire as much if not more than any other, and, due to that country's greatness, for the free world.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Lutenist (Reply 35):
t hasn't been entirely without value. I believe there have been some constructive replies and some valuable insights.

It's value is tainted instantly by the  redflag  remarks in the thread opener . . . it's value is instantly slanted and biased making for an instantly slanted and biased conversation.

As was asked of you earlier . . . what affect has the Patriot Act had on you . . . regardless of your Canadian citizenship?

As was asked of anyone replying here . . . what affect has the Patriot Act had on you?

If anyone says they've been personally affected I'll eat my hat . . . . law abiding citizens don't have anything to worry about.

If you're a law abiding citizen and are bitching and moaning about the patriot Act then I submit one of two possibilities . . .

a) You're not the law abiding citizen you purport to be and might actually need to worry.

b) You're a sniveling, whiney assed individual that will grab anything and everything that doesn't align 100% with your warped beliefs just so you can snivel and whine.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:59 am

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
If you're a law abiding citizen and are bitching and moaning about the patriot Act then I submit one of two possibilities . . .

a) You're not the law abiding citizen you purport to be and might actually need to worry.

b) You're a sniveling, whiney assed individual that will grab anything and everything that doesn't align 100% with your warped beliefs just so you can snivel and whine.

Ever the Moderate, Pep?

It's not about how it has or hasn't directly affected me. I don't think so much about myself as I do about society as a whole. When I vote for a candidate, I don't vote for the one who will do me the most good, I vote for the one who will do the most good for all. When the government takes steps to circumvent human rights, I feel personally insulted, even if it could never happen to me. It's the old "give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile" philosophy that groups like the NRA espouse as it realtes to the issue of gun control.

I believe that you and I have basically opposite views on authority. You tend to accept it, and I tend to question it. Perhaps because you are involved in it, and are, as far as I can tell, one of the straight-and-narrow guys who do not abuse your power, you view it this way. I say one bad apple is reason to distrust the whole lot, because the stakes are so high.

The Partiot Act allows for the potential usurping of basic American rights. That, in any way, shape, or form, is unacceptable.

Edited to add:

You know, in thinking further about what you posted, you are basically accusing anyone who questions the actions of our leaders to either be a law-breaker or a whiny bitch who should just shut the hell up. That, my friend, is about as right-wing as one can get. It's also dangerous. That's just the sort of thinking that dictatorships are built on. If you disagree with us, we'll find some reason to put you away. If you shut up and stay in line, everything will be fine. Does that sound like what our Founding Fathers wanted? I'm frankly a bit disappointed, Pep.

[Edited 2005-12-17 20:38:20]
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 37):
I believe that you and I have basically opposite views on authority. You tend to accept it, and I tend to question it. Perhaps because you are involved in it, and are, as far as I can tell, one of the straight-and-narrow guys who do not abuse your power, you view it this way. I say one bad apple is reason to distrust the whole lot, because the stakes are so high.

I like to think I'm one of the good guys . . . . and I know there are plenty of bad apples in the bunch. Those are the ones we must weed out and be weary of . . . I like to think, also, that the number of good guys far outnumbers the bad guys. And when we catch a bad guy, we deal with him/her in a most ruthless maner.

I don't distrust the lot immediately because of one bad apple.

I do agree, the stakes are enormous. But I also consider the alternative, and realize that the enormity of the stakes at hand is worth it, considering the possibilities the alternative has to offer.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 37):
It's not about how it has or hasn't directly affected me. I don't think so much about myself as I do about society as a whole.

My point exactly John. I'm quite sure the Patriot Act hasn't affected you - as you are one of the good guys too. That said: I'm almost sure it hasn't effected anyone here . . . 'society' as you put it. Society hasn't been harmed as far as I can tell . . . yet . . .

And once again, the stakes are high, very high. While I don't necessarily trust some of the people in Gov't that control the arms and legs of the Patriot Act, I trust as a whole that the good guys in Gov't that also have a portion of that control, won't allow the bad guys to run amok.

If we, as a society, don't take some risk in certain things, we stand to be eliminated due to our own inaction. That worries me a hell of a lot more than whether or not someone is looking at my Book checkout record at the Anchorage Library!
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Guest

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 33):
Not to rekindle for a larger flame, but has ANYone here on this forum been PERSONALLY "ripped" by the USA Feds (or even really inconvenienced for that matter) because of the Patriot Act?



Quoting Cptkrell (Reply 33):
Again, has ANYone here been personally subject to abnormal scrutiny by the US govment that has resulted in a specific negative in your own benign lifestyle? Hmmm... Bet I won't get a whole bunch of "yes" answers with specifics...regards...jack

Go in the photography forum and talk to all the photographers who have been taken into custody, asked to go downtown, asked to leave public property, or are generally scared to question the authorities when what they're doing is perfectly legal...all because if they don't comply, they could have the Patriot Act thrust upon them, and that would mess up their lives.

It's absolutely disgusting how Bush can trumpet "spreading freedom in Iraq" when he's taking it away here. I thought we were supposed to be the example.

B
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 37):
You know, in thinking further about what you posted, you are basically accusing anyone who questions the actions of our leaders to either be a law-breaker or a whiny bitch who should just shut the hell up.

Dangit, don't do that edit thing . . . wink 

If thats the perception, that's not the intent.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 37):
I'm frankly a bit disappointed, Pep.

Sorry 'bout that Chief . . .

My concern is that we are bitching about nothing. Or more to the point, trying to find anything that remotely displeases us to bitch.

Now personally, I have no issues with the Patriot Act . . . and I can tell you as a law enforcement officer, I've never had to use it, or even think about using it . . . the provisions in that act don't affect me personally or professionally . . .

I remain interested to know which person - in the US that is - on A-Net has been directly affected by said act, and would therefore have a valid reason to bitch about it.

I'm not making light of it - I agree some of it needs to be changed, toned down, even outright removed in one case - but as a whole . . . all the risks considered . . . I believe it to be worthy and to be in the best interest of the country.

I look at it with open eyes and know that it doesn't affect me. I also know that those that is will affect probably aren't walking the straight and narrow to begin with, so if they are affected (read that: caught doing something they shouldn't) then fine. The end result is we are all safer and probably a tad more secure than if the Act wasn't in place.

I never would dispute someones right to bitch about their leaders - hell we all do it, all the time . . . . it's our right and priviledge in this democracy. But there is an old saying about picking your battles . . . this is simply one I don't believe is worth the effort.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Logan22L
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 40):
this is simply one I don't believe is worth the effort

I hope you're right.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
That worries me a hell of a lot more than whether or not someone is looking at my Book checkout record at the Anchorage Library!

If only it stopped there. Talk about spin.  spin 
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 41):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
That worries me a hell of a lot more than whether or not someone is looking at my Book checkout record at the Anchorage Library!

If only it stopped there. Talk about spin.  spin 

Yeah, that was kind of a low bid shot are sarcasm I'll agree . . .

But it just shows you form my perspective how much I think this is so much ado about nothing my friend . . . .

If the Patriot Act allows us to catch one, only one, asshole then IMO, it's done it's job.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 1):
I think your username got misspelled somehow. Shouldn't it read "Leftist"? I'm just glad you don't have a United States flag next to it!

A perfect response! And it was the first post too!

There is a reason Canadians are Canadians.

LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
greasespot
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):
If the Patriot Act allows us to catch one, only one, asshole then IMO, it's done it's job.

I sort of agree...BUt at the same time the question needs to be asked...Could they have caught that asshole under the normal channels and tools avaliable. If they could than the patriot act is then an unecessary intrusion....

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Guest

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 43):
There is a reason Canadians are Canadians.

Because they have common sense and don't worship themselves?

B
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 44):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):
If the Patriot Act allows us to catch one, only one, asshole then IMO, it's done it's job.

I sort of agree...BUt at the same time the question needs to be asked...Could they have caught that asshole under the normal channels and tools avaliable. If they could than the patriot act is then an unecessary intrusion....

You would be right, IF they (we? - since you are one too now) could catch the bad guy without the Patriot Act, what good is it.

I mentioned I have never used it. I don't foresee ever using it. But if it catches just one, it's worth it to me.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
greasespot
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RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:53 am

On a little different note: I wonder how many provisons in the patriot act are taken as normal up here in Canada as we do not have the same constitution protections on persopnal property and fredoms. I mean we have a guy up here held with out actually being charged for 3 years on a ministers warrent and secret court and rullings....If it was reported that the Americans did this we would be all over them....well more than we are now..

I suspect we are watched watched way more up here than in the USA even with their patriot act...

We now return to our regulary scheduled thread.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 45):
Because they have common sense and don't worship themselves?

No. Because they have common sense but don't know what to do with it.

LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: The Return Of (The Real) US Of A

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 41):



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):

Sorry, didn't want to quote all of what you guys have said. It's been very enjoyable to watch you two discuss this, truly one of the finer points of our democracy and you two have represented your positions very well, BRAVO to both of you!

I am going to have to side with ANCFlyer on this one, though. My outlook is that if you have nothing to hide, what's the big deal. But I will also have to add that I have seen the effects of power abused and I have made it a point to educate myself on my own rights to prevent it from happening to me. In my part of Texas, there was a group of people from various law enforcement agencies called the "(insert part of Texas I am in) Drug Task Force". These LEO's would drive back and forth on Interstate 20 pulling people over and emptying their trunk of all belongings, leaving it strewn about for the owners to pick up after they had consented to a search of their vehicle. Once in a while, they would come up with something legit to arrest someone for, MOST of the time they wouldn't. They were clearly abusing their authority because they had no PC in most of the searches and they were relying on the fact that most well-meaning people who are pulled over are intimidated by law enforcement and when asked for consent to search their vehicle, they never even considered the fact that they were allowed to say NO or they didn't want to make themselves have the appearance of being guilty by saying NO. They were asking for consent to search vehicles and persons that obviously scored very low on suspicion, they did the searches to retain the multi-county funding for their organization! The organization ended up being disbanded, and this was even before September 11 and the Patriot Act were even considered.

Before I got my Concealed Handgun License, I had educated myself on my rights and knew to at least state that my attorney had advised me to ask for PC when asked for consent to search. The typical tactic was for the LEO to respond with a statement to the effect that they could have a warrant from a Judge to search even if one did not give consent, but I knew that they still had to have PC to get a warrant and in most cases they were looking for a high number of searches and would not want to wait around for a warrant. Anyway, I have my CHL now, so it kinda rearranges things anyway and that instantly gives them PC, so it doesn't matter.

What it all comes down to is that if they want to search you or check into your activites, they are going to be able to do it anyway, so why worry about the Patriot Act. If it makes it easier to check into someone that otherwise is trying to hide illegal activity, I think it's worth it. Blah blah blah....

Edit: Forgot to include this link, interesting info that is applicable. Scroll down about halfway through the page to get to the "meat and potatoes". http://justsaynotosearches.org/

[Edited 2005-12-17 22:08:25]

[Edited 2005-12-17 22:10:36]
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud

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