n506cr
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:58 am

US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:56 pm

Ok I'm not an often-poster but I noticed no one had brought this thread for discussion yet... specially since most a.netter's just seem to enjoy it so much.  duck 

The wall is here... (and I am 101% agreeing with it... wrap the whole thing!)

The House of Representatives voted to build a wall along the US border with Mexico to stop illegal immigration.
...
The US border with Canada was not forgotten. The bill "includes a requirement for the Secretary of Homeland Security to conduct a study on the use of physical barriers along the Northern border."

The US-Mexico border is 3,200 kilometers long. (2000 miles)


http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14050366

So this is what Mexico thinks...

"The government of Mexico ... believes that a reform which only considers security measures will not contribute to a better, more integral bilateral management of migration issues," the Foreign Relations department said in a statement.

which is, if you think about it, true. Immigration (illegal) is not going to stop, they will just keep looking for new places to cross the border (if there's any "new" place to discover yet...)...

Mexico argues existing barriers built along heavily crossed sections of the border have not stopped migrants from crossing, rather have pushed them through more desolate, dangerous areas.

Now I really wish this could be done...

House leaders wouldn't allow a vote on a volatile proposal to deny citizenship to babies born in the United States to illegal immigrants.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3531388.html

Why not??? I mean most countries have strict guidelines regarding acquisition of citizenship. The US shouldn't give it out so easily. I read in the local newspaper that this represents 10% of the babies born in the US every year, about 400,000 brand new could-be-President-runners whose parents ain't-even-driver's-license-holders. And then they want the goverment to pay them the living soul of their expenses. Wtf?? Plus, I've met a couple of kids like this, and although they enjoy so much the fact they didn't do sh** to be Americans and were one since their very first tear, and go around "laughing" on their all-visa-denied-relatives the fact that they just can't be denied entry or there ain't almost any possible way in this planet they were forced to leave what their relatives somehow see as 'paradise' that they ain't even allowed to enter, when these kids visit grandma back in Hidden Hole Town somewhere in the middle of a mountain (without their parents who ain't got a SSN yet after those 1X years, of course), 95% (okay maybe too much but that's what I've seen so far) of them spend their lifetime complaining that they don't like the US, they want to move, yada yada yada. I am able to point out names of kids like this, and they annoy the hell out of me  banghead . And as far as this policy goes, couples will try to have 'American' babies, well, they'd rather wait 18 years for their sons to 'claim' them or whatever that's called, than don't have the least chance to somehow become legal in their lifetime.
And I say all this mostly because the people who emigrate (let's stay on the un-educated, un-professional immigrants) to the United States ain't the best coins in our country's piggy bank, ok, this does not applies to everyone. In the time I have spent in the US, I have had to deal and get to know some of these illegals, and know who they are: lazy ones, high school (or even elementary) drop-outs, problematic people, people with 0 knowledge, barely speak any english, alcoholics (I was amazad to see the rate of alcoholic immigrants - well, yes, I know Americans do it too, but come on we're immigrants we've got to keep the low profile, the US ain't our "turf" - gotta stick to the "foreigner's rule"), people who ain't as honest as you wish, and BS like that. And if you ask me, I would say 9 out of 10 fall under the described category. And their sons are going to be just like them, in most cases of course. Also, intelligence, IQ, say it how you like it, relates in important proportion to the parents', and guess what, those high school drop-outs that put up the wall of the buildings and make your nice gardens in the US ain't no smarta$$es at all. So it ain't like the elite of the 'breed' is being taken to the US... sorry but... nope.
If it was my decision, I would bring back all those who are there, and send those who are here now, again, I know there are some good ones out there, and bad ones still here as well. Because those who were able to give a little more effort here are the ones who would really contribute to the United States, unlike those easy-way low-wage conformers (ok, low-wage for US standars, high for,in this case, Central American standards).  yes 

[after the speech]dude... wake up... he's done[/after the speech]

Well let's get this started. Here's the link to a Mexico+wall keyword search in Google where you might find other articles.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mexico+wall&btnG=Google+Search

Can't wait to see some blue-eyed blondies under the charming desert sun putting up the fence.  stirthepot 
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:07 pm

"Mr. Bush, Tear down this wall!"
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Venezuela747
Posts: 1374
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:36 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:10 pm

Well if a baby were to be born here isn't it unconstitutional to deny him citizenship, doesn't the constitution say everyone born here is a citizen?

If not what citizenship do they get then?
ROLL TIDE!!!
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:52 pm

Actually, this is an issue near and dear to my heart. My wife is from Mexico and my daughter is a US citizen. My wife is a naturalized US citizen BECAUSE SHE GOT OFF HER DEAD ASS AND STUDIED AND TOOK THE TEST TO BECOME A CITIZEN!!!

Believe me, the wall would be a good thing. I say "would be" because I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure some fanatical left-wing immigration-rights group will file suit in a federal court and it will be tied up until I'll never see it built in MY lifetime! Same kind of thing that is happening with "The Minutemen", a group that is just reporting what they see, not taking any direct action against these CRIMINALS that are crossing illegally (is there another word for those breaking federal laws?) LULAC and other left-wing organizations are strongly against people sitting legally at the border and reporting the activity they see. Is that right? I sure as hell don't think so!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:02 pm

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 2):
isn't it unconstitutional to deny him citizenship, doesn't the constitution say everyone born here is a citizen?

 checkmark 
14th Amendment:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It would have to be repealed by another amendment, which I don't think stands the slightest chance of being ratified.

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 2):
If not what citizenship do they get then?

A lovely parting gift?  Silly
I lift things up and put them down.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:05 pm

And someone asked the other day in another thread if there was Anti-US sentiment here in Canada.

For over 200 years we have had an undefended border between the US and Canada. Putting a wall up is a defence.

To those who will say "It's for homeland-security", you know what? It goes both ways. They can come from the US into Canada just as much as they can the other way. (I do REALIZE they're just studying the Canadian border option, so don't jump all over me haha)

And, for 9/11 preachers, remember.. when the terrorists entered the US prior to 9/11, it was American border guards who granted them access to the US.

I think this is a terrible decision, and I think that it will further hinder relations between Canada/Mexico and the US.

Sad.. this administration needs to go.

Supporters of Bush have *no* idea how quickly their rights are being taken away. My god we need to wake up.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
And someone asked the other day in another thread if there was Anti-US sentiment here in Canada.

For over 200 years we have had an undefended border between the US and Canada. Putting a wall up is a defense.

Are you comparing the Mexican border to the Canadian? Do you really need an explanation?

The wall is a nothing. It will not be effective and will be about as useful a barrier as a pair of panties on a prom date. The wall is about public perception. The wall is for the US populace away from the border who have no idea of the ineffectiveness of walls and fences to illegals. It might make the ignorant feel safe.

So what is the difference between the Canadian border and Mexico's? Illegals. While illegals do contribute large amounts of surplus money to social security (which will most likely be eradicated in 15 years) they use more tax funds in the infrastructure than they pay. The 2nd generation illegals put strains on education, hospitals, as well as the general infrastructure. It is also estimated that Mexican illegal aliens send back over $14 billion a year to Mexico. This is the 2nd largest source of income for Mexico only behind oil. Do you think that Mexico wants to stop illegal immigration? Of course not, this is why they have just recently started dual citizenship for Mexicans in America, to keep the funds flowing in. Some Mexican states produce pamphlets on how to cross the border as well as how to use the system to acquire an education illegally. Perhaps Mexico should turn the mirror on themselves and their own Southern border. They deport over 150,000 illegal Guatemalan every year with no remorse or hesitance.

On the other hand, this wall is ridiculous. A wall will do nothing to stop the flow and will only be a waste of tax payer money. The only pragmatic solution is to increase the amount of work visas for Mexican immigrants while severely punishing employers for hiring illegals. A $50,000 fine per instance of hiring each illegal will deter any kind of illegal employment. When there are no jobs, there will be no illegals. A negative side to this is the fact that prices on certain goods and services will increase, however so will the lower and medium end wages.

If you ask me, both the Mexican and American governments have been turning their heads to illegal immigration because it helps big business in the US and is a lot of money for Mexico. Its time to make things legit though, and start enforcing fines to those who hire illegals. This will also eradicate abuses to the illegals as those under work visas would be protected by the US Department of Labor.

[Edited 2005-12-18 07:36:44]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting N506CR (Thread starter):
about 400,000 brand new could-be-President-runners whose parents ain't-even-driver's-license-holders.

I wouldn't worry about that, since you have to be very white in order to win. I think FOX has been doing background checks on every candidate's whiteness before the party picks a nominee for the last few elections.
Dear moderators: No.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:08 pm

Sadly they didn't vote to "wall up the border", only to put up an easily penetrated fence.
A true wall is needed to keep the illegal immigrants and other criminals out of the country, preferably a wall with some minefields and alligator filled ditches to back it up.
I wish I were flying
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 8):
A true wall is needed to keep the illegal immigrants and other criminals out of the country, preferably a wall with some minefields and alligator filled ditches to back it up.

Yeah, why not just charge the barbed-wire fence with high-voltage, use
some minefields, attack dogs and shoot anyone in sight...  Yeah sure

Deja vu, anyone???






 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:21 am

I find it utterly ridiculous that the U.S. government makes you fly through hoops to come into the country legally, but has an unsecured border to the south where millions cross unimpeded.

My mother (a Swiss citizen), was once held up in Europe for 4 months because of some expired card or other, in spite of having been married to an American for 40 years, having a home in the U.S., and having children who are U.S. citizens. In the end, it took a personal note from a Texas Senator to the state department to get her paperwork through.

I say eliminate the illegal immigration, and ease up on the restrictions on legal immigration.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 6):
The wall is a nothing. It will not be effective and will be about as useful a barrier as a pair of panties on a prom date. The wall is about public perception. The wall is for the US populace away from the border who have no idea of the ineffectiveness of walls and fences to illegals. It might make the ignorant feel safe.

Then what do you suggest? Good intentions? A wall will at least make it harder.

I would also suggest a new policy that would replace bussing over captured illegals over the border. Put them on a plane for the capital city of their origin. If they have to start from Mexico City, they can't try so often.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:33 am

If the United States is such a horrible place, why do so many people want to come here?
International Homo of Mystery
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:57 am

The wall might be a slight a deterrent but it won't solve the problem, or likely put a dent in the problem, of illegal immigration. Unless of course it's thirty feet high, electrified, and we maintain some sort of aggressive response to those crossing . . . which we absolutely cannot do.

The folks coming in from the southern borders in the US will find a way to breach the wall, and they will continue coming in to the US.

Increased patrols and electronic sensors and increased enforcement with a quicker ride home; that's a better prospect. That's the right answer.

Will we get every single illegal? Hell no. The sheer numbers of crossings every day will make that impossible. A concrete wall is not, however, the answer. That's like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound - it might look clean, but it's not going to do the job.

. . . .

As for the northern border with our Canadian friends . . .

I'm torn about how to enforce illegals crossing there. As I'm familiar with the Alaska Canada border, I can tell you patrolling that with any human force is untenable. I have seen apprehended illegals at the Port of Entry at the Alaska Highway. It was fairly simple for them to cross - just exit a vehicle on the Canadian side two/three miles shy of the border. The vehicle with the legal driver makes the crossing and picked up his friends two miles inside Alaska. There is no fence, no electronic frontier, nothing. The remaining border with the US is similiarly easy to cross.

What to do about that? I don't see a thousands of miles long fence between us and our Canadian friends. It will require due diligence on the part of the Canadian and US border forces to reduce. But it will never stop.

Any increase in border protection on the part of the US alone will appear to be overly aggressive and unfriendly towards our Canadian friends, and I'm certainly not for that. What is the answer on the US/Canada border? I don't know.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:39 am

I am rather surprised that the USA has NOT taken decisive steps to secure its southern border in a serious way. A lot has been reported about people captured by US-authorities when trying to get across the Mexican-US border, but far less about the uncounted ones who succeeded and whom I guess that they were/are the majority. The new conditions may then force the Mexican leadership to press for REAL solutions, and the Mexican president will likely then be on less friendly terms with the leader in the White House. Somebody in Washington might even tell the Mexicans that a decent telephone-system (among other things) in Mexico might be wonderful for potential investments in that country.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:40 am

A strange aspect is that the USA criticizes Syria for not having its borderline with Iraq under control, but needs three decades to start to get its own southern border under control ! very very very strange !
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Deja vu, anyone???

Yeah, that's like saying Nazi concentration camps are the same thing as a county jail. You are being totally absurd and putting the issue into your own twisted context by showing the pictures you showed side-by-side. You know DAMNED WELL that the wall put up in Berlin and along the East-West German border, as well as the border between the Koreas is to keep people IN rather than legitimately protecting a soverign state from intruders.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Yeah, why not just charge the barbed-wire fence with high-voltage, use
some minefields, attack dogs and shoot anyone in sight...

I TOTALLY AGREE!!! I also say that the US Border Patrol should be equipped with Cobras and Apaches to patrol the entire border with! Radical idea? Hardly! An invasion is in progress and it must be stopped!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
An invasion is in progress and it must be stopped!

Really, I've heard drag queens state it less dramatically.

There is a tolerable level of illegal immigration that the U.S. will overlook. I thought that was obvious. In another decade or so we'll probably even have another amnesty.
International Homo of Mystery
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:53 am

There's a big difference between building a Wall between the US and Mexico and the Berlin wall, people trying to cross into the US from Mexico will not be shot at from either side.

The Mexican Army is not shooting at folks trying to cross into the US, in fact the Mexican Government openly supports people subverting US laws by illegally crossing into the US. The money Illegal immigrants in the US sends back to Mexico is a staple to the Mexican economy to which the Mexican Government does not want to stop.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Really, I've heard drag queens state it less dramatically.

That's because the drag queens you hang out with aren't here on the front lines like I am.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
You are being totally absurd

I am and my post was intended to be a bit of a hyperbole, however the symbolism of the fence is striking and only supporting whover said in the other thread that the US under Bush are becoming more and more 1984ish.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
You know DAMNED WELL that the wall put up in Berlin and along the East-West German border, as well as the border between the Koreas is to keep people IN rather than legitimately protecting a soverign state from intruders.

But the population behind the Iron Curtain / North Korea is fed with government propaganda that the fence is there to protect them from those "bad guys outside". Sort of like the hysteria you just demonstrated:

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
An invasion is in progress and it must be stopped!



Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
also say that the US Border Patrol should be equipped with Cobras and Apaches

A country engaging so often in self-fooling chest-beating contests of how "free" they are, shooting people on their border. Wonderful!
Why don't you just change the ius soli concept of gaining US citizenship, which leads to a massive abuse, to a ius sanguini one?
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
aren't here on the front lines like I am.

I will let them know to look you up for proper competition then.  Wink
International Homo of Mystery
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting N506CR (Thread starter):
House leaders wouldn't allow a vote on a volatile proposal to deny citizenship to babies born in the United States to illegal immigrants.

See below post

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 2):
Well if a baby were to be born here isn't it unconstitutional to deny him citizenship, doesn't the constitution say everyone born here is a citizen?

It is absolutely unconstitutional to deny citizenship to any person who is born on the soil of the United States (this includes Puerto Rico BTW)

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
but has an unsecured border to the south where millions cross unimpeded.

You know, the southern border of the US is not exactly the most welcoming place (not that the Canadian border is so great either).

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
An invasion is in progress and it must be stopped!

You have got to be kidding me. That kind of statement kills any sort of credibility you may have in making an argument.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Really, I've heard drag queens state it less dramatically.

 rotfl  rotfl 

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
That's because the drag queens you hang out with aren't here on the front lines like I am.

As a native Californian who has known many Latin immigrants, with and without papers, th only "front line" I see is the one that is picking the strawberries you sliced over your Cheerios this morning. Perhaps you should think about that, and the celery you are having with dinner, the bok choy in your chinese food and countless other things before you start using terms of war.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
th only "front line" I see is the one that is picking the strawberries you sliced over your Cheerios this morning. Perhaps you should think about that, and the celery you are having with dinner, the bok choy in your chinese food and countless other things before you start using terms of war.

It amuses me when people that don't have a legitimate point attempt to legitimize illegal activity.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
As a native Californian who has known many Latin immigrants, with and without papers,

I don't care. No one can be closer to the situation than I......

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 3):
Actually, this is an issue near and dear to my heart. My wife is from Mexico and my daughter is a US citizen. My wife is a naturalized US citizen BECAUSE SHE GOT OFF HER DEAD ASS AND STUDIED AND TOOK THE TEST TO BECOME A CITIZEN!!!

And with most of her family still in Mexico, they sometimes come here to visit LEGALLY. On the other hand, I also know a LOT of illegals and most of them want to be citizens. That still does not change the fact that they are here ILLEGALLY.

Now, back to the strawberries issue. This is also not a legitimate argument because this is a market-driven economy. If the illegals are not there to do the job, someone else will do it. Don't be ignorant enough to think that illegals are doing the jobs that Americans would not do. I'm SO sick of hearing that in the media and it's entirely NOT TRUE! Yes, prices might go up on some things because those who hire the illegal laborers would have to hire from a different labor market. But it WOULD work out! It does in other countries, it would here, too.

P.S., I don't eat strawberries, Cheerios, celery or Chinese food.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
The folks coming in from the southern borders in the US will find a way to breach the wall, and they will continue coming in to the US.

Increased patrols and electronic sensors and increased enforcement with a quicker ride home; that's a better prospect. That's the right answer.

 checkmark Anybody who has actually spent time along the southern border knows this. Physical barriers do not stop the crossings, they barely delay them. I've seen a brand new fence w/ razor wire and concrete barriers subverted w/in 12 hours. The only thing that shifts the flow is actual presence of people, or knowledge of a quick response. I think that is the answer for the Canadian border as well. We don't need a fence or anthing else to the north, but well thought out and strategiclly placed electronic monitoring, with a coordinated response plan when there is an illegal crossing.

The hyperbole and hysteria on both sides of the issue is incredible. Those crossing illegaly are breaking the law, and thus are criminals. No amount of rationalizing will change that. At the same time, our economy is partially built on their presence. Eliminating them, while it won't cause the collapse of the western world, will change our way of life. Like any problem, treating the obvious symptoms, without treating the underlying cause, won't do anything but temporarily surpress the issue. As long as there is a significant chance that an illegal will be able to get across the border, make money, and send it home, they will continue to come. We have to eliminate what makes it profitable for them to take the risks (jobs) as well as make it ever more dificult to actually make the crossing.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Fokker Lover
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 10:05 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 6):
A wall will do nothing to stop the flow and will only be a waste of tax payer money.

Tax payer money is money that was forcibly removed from our economy. It doesn't do us any good unless it's being spent and put back into the economy.

I wouldn't care if they spent billions on building a wall, and then spent billions more ripping it down. The more tax payer money that is spent on American workers and companies, and removed from government control, the better off we are.
10,000 years ago we would have eaten you. Today, we drag you along and allow you to pollute the gene pool.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
Then what do you suggest? Good intentions? A wall will at least make it harder.

I have spoken to border patrol agents as well as illegals who laugh when people introduce the idea of the wall stopping people. All they do is dig under it, pry the sections apart, or in some instances climb over it. They do have monitoring towers with state of the art monitoring, but it doesn'y stop the flow. With all the money spent on surveillance and personel, it only cuts the flow buy one quarter. In the vast Tucson sector of the border alone there are over 2500 agents patrolling. When getting over the wall or trudging acorss the desert is the easiest way for someone to support their family, then they will attempt it. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of people per year and it is easy to see that a wall will not be effective.

AS I SAID EARLIER, THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE FLOW IS BY ERADICATING THOSE WHO GIVE JOBS TO ILLEGALS. FINING EMPLOYERS HARSHLY AND NOT TURNING OUR HEADS IS THE ONLY WAY.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
The new conditions may then force the Mexican leadership to press for REAL solutions, and the Mexican president will likely then be on less friendly terms with the leader in the White House.

$14 billion a year to Mexico in illegal remittances, I don't believe Mexico wants a "real solution".

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
Put them on a plane for the capital city of their origin. If they have to start from Mexico City, they can't try so often.

They already do this. People who are from the Yucatan and other far away places are sent back to their region. Otherwise they would be sent back to the other side of the fence with no money and no other options then to try to cross again.

President Bush says
To prevent them from trying to cross again, we've launched an interesting program, an innovative approach called interior repatriation. Under this program, many Mexicans caught at the border illegally are flown back to Mexico and then bused to their hometowns in the interior part of the country. By returning these illegal immigrants to their home towns far from the border, we make it more difficult for them to attempt to cross again. Interior repatriation is showing promise in breaking the cycle of illegal immigration.
http://www.bennyhinn.org/yourlife/In...od/President-Discusses-Border.html
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
They can come from the US into Canada just as much as they can the other way.

Yeah, but who would want to unless there is a casino or a hockey game nearby?

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
Sad.. this administration needs to go.

The next Presidential election is in 2008, just under 3 years from now. A new administration will take over then.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
My god we need to wake up.

By that you mean Canadian rights? You don't have any rights under our Constitution if you are in Canada.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 6):
While illegals do contribute large amounts of surplus money to social security

????Considering their income is not reported, since it is obtained illegally, how is it collected?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Unless of course it's thirty feet high, electrified, and we maintain some sort of aggressive response to those crossing . . . which we absolutely cannot do.

Sure we can. The fence is a great idea and once our troops report back from Iraq, they have a new job waiting for them.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
A strange aspect is that the USA criticizes Syria for not having its borderline with Iraq under control, but needs three decades to start to get its own southern border under control ! very very very strange !

How long is the border of Syria/Iraq versus the United States/Mexico? How many Syrians are trying to cross versus Mexicans into the USA?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
I am rather surprised that the USA has NOT taken decisive steps to secure its southern border in a serious way.

Take a look at the milage and terrain of that border and maybe you might begin to understand the problem.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
In another decade or so we'll probably even have another amnesty.

I don't think so. People in the southern part of the U.S. are getting mighty fed up with the current situation. I think the border states and those that recieve a lot of illegal immigration via the interstate system are going to put increasing pressure on the federal government to do something. A lot of crimminals pass over the border then slide back across knowing they probably won't be pursued.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
The Mexican Army is not shooting at folks trying to cross into the US

You're right, my understanding is that they are busy shooting people crossing their southern border.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
th only "front line" I see is the one that is picking the strawberries you sliced over your Cheerios this morning.

Comon down to Houston and I'll show you another "front line". These people aren't picking fruits and vegatables, they're picking the system clean.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 26):
????Considering their income is not reported, since it is obtained illegally, how is it collected?



A large majority of them use forged documentation or false social security numbers, meaning that pay is taken from their checks but never collected. Most employers know that they are false, but fail to care as they are not required to check with social security. Some would say that this means illegals contribute more than they take, however there are many sources that I can site that provide numbers which show the strain on federal and state budgets as well as negative overall tax contributions make the SSA surplus less than negligable.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/9/27/122638.shtml

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:50 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 27):
A large majority of them use forged documentation or false social security numbers, meaning that pay is taken from their checks but never collected. Most employers know that they are false, but fail to care as they are not required to check with social security.

The way it works is that most of them are either paid straight cash under the table (day labor), or they are paid as contractors and none of the deductions are required. SSN's and other paperwork are a distant afterthought. There's too much of it going on for the government to even try to start to keep up with it!

Another way it is done is that a "legal" (citizen or resident alien) will work at the same place as an "illegal" friend or family member, he receives 1.5 or 2 times what would be their ordinary hourly rate, and then the money is split between them each payday. He's well-paid and there's a "phantom" employee. Not many government employees out in the oilfield or onion and peanut fields checking everyone's complicated paper trail!

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 27):
Some would say that this means illegals contribute more than they take, however there are many sources that I can site that provide numbers which show the strain on federal and state budgets as well as negative overall tax contributions make the SSA surplus less than negligable.

Right-on, and thanks for supplying the links to prove it!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 26):
How long is the border of Syria/Iraq versus the United States/Mexico? How many Syrians are trying to cross versus Mexicans into the USA?

To take the second question first, none. The Syria/Iraq border is more than 600 kms long and Syria is a small country of only 17 mio people. And such borders in the Middle East have never been "guarded/controlled/patrolled" .
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 23):
Anybody who has actually spent time along the southern border knows this.

Having spent a considerable amount of time at/near San Ysidro - the most heavily trafficked crossing in the US - I can tell you . . . I know Border Patrol agents who have told me . . . they know some of the illegals by NAME, they try over and over and over. When the agents stop seeing them, they know they made it across.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 26):
Sure we can. The fence is a great idea and once our troops report back from Iraq, they have a new job waiting for them

 redflag  That is not the way we do things in the USofA, contrary to some ill gotten beliefs. I'm all for securing the border and totally eliminating illegal immigration - I am also keely aware that it is an impossible task. Lining the 1st Cavalry Division up along the border is a) against the law and b) ridiculous.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
a) against the law and b) ridiculous.

It is the Armys job to defend the border. PC does not apply. Don't want to use the Army? Then use the Marines. Is it anymore ridiculous than expecting the Border Patrol to secure it? Maybe it's time to start thinking outside of the box because the box we have is just not big enough.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 22):
It amuses me when people that don't have a legitimate point attempt to legitimize illegal activity.

I made a completely legitimate point. The US economy, particularly the massive agricultural sector, benefits massively from the work of latin american immigrants, both with and without papers and I am constantly amused by the hypocrisy of those who make such broad claims without thought

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 22):
I don't care. No one can be closer to the situation than I......

Um, sure.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 26):
Comon down to Houston and I'll show you another "front line". These people aren't picking fruits and vegatables, they're picking the system clean.

The only system they are picking clean is the system of houses of rich Houstonians. If you are going to start about children who are legitimate US citizens going to school and recieving health care, then perhaps you should think about the same for your own children.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
It is the Armys job to defend the border. PC does not apply. Don't want to use the Army? Then use the Marines. Is it anymore ridiculous than expecting the Border Patrol to secure it? Maybe it's time to start thinking outside of the box because the box we have is just not big enough.

It is not the Army's job to patrol the United States. The Army/Navy/Air Force are there to defend against enemy states that threaten the sovereignty of the United States. Mexico is one of the biggest allies the United States has, no matter what some people may think, and by staging troops at the borders and attacking their citizens, we are committing acts of war. The INS (or whatever they are calling themselves this week) is there to guard ports of entry where there are not significant natural defenses (deserts, tundra, bodies of water, etc.). Beyond that, once people are inside the US, the military is not allowed to act against them.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
The only system they are picking clean is the system of houses of rich Houstonians.

Spoken like a true Frenchman ready to cut off some more heads!! lol Why don't you worry about your own immigrant problem first? You know, the one that is enriching your car dealers pockets.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
It is not the Army's job to patrol the United States. The Army/Navy/Air Force are there to defend against enemy states that threaten the sovereignty of the United States. Mexico is one of the biggest allies the United States has, no matter what some people may think, and by staging troops at the borders and attacking their citizens, we are committing acts of war.

It is the job of the Army to protect the borders. If you want we could take a tour of all the old forts that exist along the shorelines and old frontier trails. Exactly what was the magi, oops, I mean surrender line on your eastern border? If their citizens attempt to illegally enter our country and are apphrehended by our military, that is hardly an act of war. Jeezzz, you folks have surrendered one to many time to even remember how to properly defend yourselves.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 31):
Maybe it's time to start thinking outside of the box because the box we have is just not big enough.

With this thought I will completely concur . . . . it's time to think out of the box where illegal immigration applies.

Posse Comitatus would apply, IMO, in that the troops could only patrol the border, the border only and nothing but the border - and that would be iffy . . . when the illegal has left the border region, he/she would be the responsibility of local law enforcement . . . not the Army on the border. I foresee mission creep in a big way there Gilligan . . . .

Nope, leave our soldiers to do the heavy work. We need to PROPERLY train, outfit and man a proper border patrol and let them do their jobs.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
Spoken like a true Frenchman ready to cut off some more heads!! lol Why don't you worry about your own immigrant problem first? You know, the one that is enriching your car dealers pockets.

Spoken like a truly short-sighted person who has not a clue about me.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
Jeezzz, you folks have surrendered one to many time to even remember how to properly defend yourselves.

Seems you forget that we owe US independence largely to the French.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 33):
If their citizens attempt to illegally enter our country and are apphrehended by our military, that is hardly an act of war.

If you patrol a border in an aggressive manner with military troops, it is an act of war. If the military apprehends anyone inside the US, they are in violation of the Constitution.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
And someone asked the other day in another thread if there was Anti-US sentiment here in Canada.

For over 200 years we have had an undefended border between the US and Canada. Putting a wall up is a defence.

To those who will say "It's for homeland-security", you know what? It goes both ways. They can come from the US into Canada just as much as they can the other way. (I do REALIZE they're just studying the Canadian border option, so don't jump all over me haha)

And, for 9/11 preachers, remember.. when the terrorists entered the US prior to 9/11, it was American border guards who granted them access to the US.

I love it when cannuks tell us how to run our country.....why dont you go away and hug some softwood lumber or whatever it is that you do in the winter up there...just leave us alone.....

I think this is a terrible decision, and I think that it will further hinder relations between Canada/Mexico and the US.

Sad.. this administration needs to go.

Supporters of Bush have *no* idea how quickly their rights are being taken away. My god we need to wake up.

1011yyz
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:46 pm

The wall won't get it. Any moron, with the right motivation, can climb a wall.

What would fix the problem is political pressure to make Mexico not be such a slum. If life were better in Mexico we would not have thousands of people streaming across our border every night. That is why we don't have streams of illegal Canadians coming across by night.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
If you patrol a border in an aggressive manner with military troops, it is an act of war.

dictionary.com definition of WAR:

war

n 1: the waging of armed conflict against an enemy; "thousands of people were killed in the war" [syn: warfare] 2: a legal state created by a declaration of war and ended by official declaration during which the international rules of war apply

Patroling a border from your side of it is NOT an act of war...lay off the hyperbole...
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
If you patrol a border in an aggressive manner with military troops, it is an act of war. If the military apprehends anyone inside the US, they are in violation of the Constitution.

Not quite . . . .

Patroling the border in and of itself is not an Act of War . . . . aggressively doing the same is not an Act of War.

And the Constitution makes no provisions for the military apprehending anyone inside the US . . . Posse Comitatus does, and it's a Law, not a part of the Constitution . . . passed during Reconstruction in 1878 . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The only waiver will be for the War on Drugs . . . passed in 1981.

Short of a Nuclear Threat inside our borders the US military, other than that, would be in violation of Posse Comitatus . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Not quite . . . .

Patroling the border in and of itself is not an Act of War . . . . aggressively doing the same is not an Act of War.

 checkmark  yes 

Patrolling has never been an act of war. What confuses people is when that patrolling crosses the border and begins pushing into the opposite country.

Overall, here are the things I find wrong with the wall:







chirp........








That being said, I'm sure Haliburton would love the job.  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
Airlinerfreak
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:16 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:58 pm

I am sorry but this is the dumbest idea I have ever heard. The people of Mexico are still going to find ways of crossing the border. Also, I believe the best solution would be to do something just as Europe has done with the EU. I think North America should come together and just be one big country. Nobody would be fighting to immigrate into the United States then and this border conflict would not be. Also it would help a great deal with are environmental and economic problems. Economically, America is not benefiting from this immigration. We should promote legal immigration and demote illegal immigration not build some stupid fence that will simply have no benefit at all.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 41):
I think North America should come together and just be one big country. Nobody would be fighting to immigrate into the United States then and this border conflict would not be. Also it would help a great deal with are environmental and economic problems.

Ooooppppsss. There goes the middle class!

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 41):
We should promote legal immigration and demote illegal immigration not build some stupid fence that will simply have no benefit at all.

Yes. As I've said, increase work visas and increase employer fines.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 37):
What would fix the problem is political pressure to make Mexico not be such a slum. If life were better in Mexico we would not have thousands of people streaming across our border every night.

More regime change on the horizon? Instead of dictating to Mexico how they should be, how about we just enforce our own laws. Including the ones that say employers will not employ illiegal aliens. If there wasn't a job market, they wouldn't come.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
There is a tolerable level of illegal immigration that the U.S. will overlook. I thought that was obvious. In another decade or so we'll probably even have another amnesty.

That level is (or rather should be) ZERO.
And those amnesties should exist of a free trainticket back to Mexico rather than 10 years in prison to earn the money for that ticket.
I wish I were flying
 
oly720man
Posts: 5740
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:17 pm

So which, erm, donator, will get the contract to build the fajita curtain?
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:20 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Spoken like a truly short-sighted person who has not a clue about me.

If you're going to wear the flag.....

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Seems you forget that we owe US independence largely to the French.

Paid off in full 1917-1918, 1941-1945, 1945-1954.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
If you patrol a border in an aggressive manner with military troops, it is an act of war. If the military apprehends anyone inside the US, they are in violation of the Constitution.

Your troops operating inside of your border cannot create an act of war. Illegal aliens can legitimately be apprehended by the military as they are in the act of invading that country.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
And the Constitution makes no provisions for the military apprehending anyone inside the US . . . Posse Comitatus does, and it's a Law, not a part of the Constitution . . . passed during Reconstruction in 1878 . . .

I would disagree. Since illegals are not citizens, PC does not apply. It is the prime function of the military to defend the nation per se, protect the borders. In the years following the civil war the army was almost totally responsible for protecting the frontier. Border patrol would be nothing more than an extension of that. Anyone trespassing could legally be apprehended and turned over to civilian authorites to have their case ajudicated.

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 41):
We should promote legal immigration and demote illegal immigration

????Thought we were already doing that. How about if we increase our demotion of illegal immigration by building some WW2 barracks out in the desert, you get caught trespassing, no free ride back to Mexico, you get an all expenses paid vacation in the desert for one year.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
stall
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:57 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 46):
you get caught trespassing, no free ride back to Mexico, you get an all expenses paid vacation in the desert for one year.

Do you really think that will have any effect on illegal immigration ?

If I were living in a poor country I will take all risk to get any job in a rich country. These people have simply nothing to loose. Get shot at is not a deterrent when you really have nothing to loose.
Flying is fun
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 46):
Paid off in full 1917-1918, 1941-1945, 1945-1954.

I have to agree, N1120A, that we have more than redeemed ourselves with the Louvre people.  yes 
Crye me a river
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: US House Votes To Wall Up Mexico Border

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
Why don't you just change the ius soli concept of gaining US citizenship, which leads to a massive abuse, to a ius sanguini one?

Because it's in the constitution, knucklehead.

Is it just me or do most of the experts on all things american hail from Europe? It sure seems that most of the bitching about it comes from that part.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Acheron, Google [Bot], jpetekyxmd80, N867DA, wingman and 33 guests