iowaman
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Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:19 pm

As heard from a lieutenant, when you take the entrance test and your black you automatically get a 20% boost on your test score. They apparently want a "more diverse" fire department and "affirmative action." Opinions?
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:22 pm

I believe as thread starter it's only fair that you state your own opinion first
 
jake056
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:24 pm

I'd like to see some official confirmation from the Chicago FD or another verifiable source. Sorry, but "as heard from a Lieutenant" doesn't do it for me.
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 1):
I believe as thread starter it's only fair that you state your own opinion first

It's blantely racist and not right.
 
Go3Team
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 3):
It's blantely racist and not right.

Sounds more like affirmative action to me. Oh wait, they are the same.

[Edited 2005-12-19 06:45:39]
Yay Pudding!
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:42 pm

Quoting Jake056 (Reply 2):
I'd like to see some official confirmation from the Chicago FD or another verifiable source. Sorry, but "as heard from a Lieutenant" doesn't do it for me.

I agree. There will be plenty of spin on this, in particular the 20% figure.

Whether you think this is right or wrong depends a lot on whether you believe that a significant prejudice exists against black people. My expereince of racism in recruitment has been that it is very easy to legally deny employment on a range of criteria, without committing any breaches of the Equal Opportunity act. I have certainly seen people not hired based on race, even when presenting as an equal candidate. If this sort of thing is widespread in terms of black employment in the US, then I guess it's true to say that there is a natural dis-advantage for the black community, and this sort of affirmative action seeks to tip the balance back to an even footing.

The problem is that this sort of practice has been tried in many countries around the world, with mixed success. But for now, I can't think of a better way to compensate for prejudical hiring practices.
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:42 pm

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 4):

And your point is?
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 5):
Whether you think this is right or wrong depends a lot on whether you believe that a significant prejudice exists against black people. My expereince of racism in recruitment has been that it is very easy to legally deny employment on a range of criteria, without committing any breaches of the Equal Opportunity act. I have certainly seen people not hired based on race, even when presenting as an equal candidate. If this sort of thing is widespread in terms of black employment in the US, then I guess it's true to say that there is a natural dis-advantage for the black community, and this sort of affirmative action seeks to tip the balance back to an even footing.

The problem is that this sort of practice has been tried in many countries around the world, with mixed success. But for now, I can't think of a better way to compensate for prejudical hiring practices.

So, just because I'm black, I automatically get a boost in the test score? That's not right and it's racist.
 
Go3Team
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:51 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 6):
And your point is?

Sounds like you have your panties in a bunch, maybe a little jealous that someone has priority over you in the hiring process. Get over it. Ever since laws were made requiring equal access, there have been adjustments made to comply. I guess this is one of them.
Yay Pudding!
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:52 pm

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 8):
Sounds like you have your panties in a bunch, maybe a little jealous that someone has priority over you in the hiring process. Get over it. Ever since laws were made requiring equal access, there have been adjustments made to comply. I guess this is one of them.

And a black person should have priority over anyone else because why???
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:56 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 7):
So, just because I'm black, I automatically get a boost in the test score? That's not right and it's racist.

Well it depends. Being black, do you feel you are disadvantaged in other ways by people's prejudices? That's racist too. Can you suggest another way to reduce the impact of that prejudice. In a sense, you are correct. This affirmitive action positively discriminates on the basis of race, so is in a way, racist. But it assumes that that black person would have stood a lesser chance of getting that job if they achieved the same score as a white guy/girl. I don't live in America but I'm sure you will have an opinion on whether that is reality. If it is then I have no problem with this

Unfortunately, this doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is correcting people's prejudices. In fact, from what I understand, it may even make it worse.
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:59 pm

Disadvantaged please, anyone who isn't white is a vicitim of racism by the Chicago FD.
 
Go3Team
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:02 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 9):
And a black person should have priority over anyone else because why???

I don't know the answer. Maybe ask people who have been let go because that company has a quota to fill. I'm not saying there is any sense to the way people are hired. All I am saying is that the best person for job is who needs to be hired, I don't care if they are purple, have 2 heads, and don't tie their shoes. If they can do the job right, so be it. As for hiring, just by observation, it seems that government jobs always have there own wacky process, be it 20 points or a mandatory percentage.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:15 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 11):
Disadvantaged please, anyone who isn't white is a vicitim of racism by the Chicago FD.

OK you seem to be a bit narrow minded and unable to consider, or even understand the concept of the other viewpoints here, perhaps because this particular subject is striking a bit of an emotional chord. You seem to be following a very simplistic line or reasoning here for a topic that is in essence pretty complex.

Are you suggesting that black people are not disadvantaged by people's stereotypical views of them? If you are then I imagine a lot of your fellow countrymen would disagree. Having not lived in the States, I don't really know either way as I only have Hollywood and the media to guide me, (and we all know how reiable that can be!)
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:44 pm

So they are saying blacks are too stupid to pass the test without the help. It sounds racist to me.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
texdravid
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:48 pm

Only 20% boost? Why not make it 50%? Why not 75%?

Hell, why not obviate the need for a test at all for blacks?

The slippery slope never ends, and the fallacy of reverse discrimation goes on.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
jake056
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:02 pm

And what exactly is this "test" testing?? The ability to do math? Number of push ups? How many angels on the head of a pin? How fast light travels?

Could the original poster please provide more information on this.

That is why I thought we need more info before we all get deep into other issues, which we ALL are eager to do.
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting Jake056 (Reply 16):
And what exactly is this "test" testing?? The ability to do math? Number of push ups? How many angels on the head of a pin? How fast light travels?

Could the original poster please provide more information on this.

All I know is an entrance test, which is probably knowledge about fighting fires etc, however it's just a guess.
 
jake056
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:15 pm

I don't believe in any kind of automatic affirmative action (automatic points as in your example). However, I could see a situation whereby preference is given to one candidate over another for diversity purposes. Depends on the situation.

Private college, similar candiadates, want some more diversity on campus, then ok.

Public college, no exception. All are equal.

Governmental body, no exception.
 
searpqx
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:44 pm

If I'm not mistaken the courts have ruled such programs illegal. Does anybody have any facts, instead of posting by a HS student on second hard hearsay?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
United737522
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:21 am

This is true to a point. They don't get a 'boost', they have a lower passing score. Example: Whites must score a 95 or above and blacks I think are a 90.
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Superfly
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:39 am

I did a search and couldn't find any links to back up Iowaman's story.  confused 
Bring back the Concorde
 
KROC
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
I did a search and couldn't find any links to back up Iowaman's story

Thats because Iowaman "heard" this from someone else, and cannot confirm this to be actual fact. Instead its just hear say.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 22):
Thats because Iowaman "heard" this from someone else, and cannot confirm this to be actual fact. Instead its just hear say.

I can't comment on the fire department but stuff like this happens every day in many other institutions--universities for starters...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
airtran737
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting Iowaman (Thread starter):
As heard from a lieutenant, when you take the entrance test and your black you automatically get a 20% boost on your test score. They apparently want a "more diverse" fire department and "affirmative action." Opinions?

It happens all the time with fire and police departments. I know a bunch of firefighters in Milwaukee and they will all say that if you are a young, in shape white guy, don't bother, you don't fit the criteria. Affirmative action is a bunch of bullshit, hire the best candidate, not the best candidate of a certain color. Fire fighters are getting killed because the standards have been lowered so much due to affirmative action, Milwaukee is up tow double digits in firefighter deaths this year for the first time in many years. The only police and fire department who doesn't hire based on affirmative action is the NYPD and NYFD, and every year they have to pay a fine to the EEOC for not hiring by their guidelines. New York understands that they want they want the best of the best, not the best of the rest.
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indianapilot
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:41 pm

I'll let you all know this spring when I take the test !! I hope to god it isn't true...I've been waiting a long time for Chicago FD to finally open up their hiring again. Last time they did an entrance test was 1995 ! Myself and a lot of the guys I work with at my current fire department have been working hard to prepare for it. We also have experience, and really want to be doing it.....we deserve that job. It wouldn't bother me to be the only white guy hired, or if it was completely mixed racially, as long as we all test on the same level and do it fairly. Let the best qualified person get hired, regardless of race. Not only is it fair, but the citizens and residents deserve to have the best qualified people serving them. Just like the firefighter oath states....serve and protect to the BEST of our ability.......
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Thread starter):
They apparently want a "more diverse" fire department and "affirmative action." Opinions?

If I were a white man seeking a job there, I'd file a lawsuit claiming I was discriminated against. But, since I'm fighting an affirmative action situation, I'd be the one labeled in the media as racist and insensitive.

I hate affirmative action...END IT...don't MEND IT.

In a case like this, everyone starts at 0 points. If you have 0 points in the end, then you aren't someone who should be a fireman.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
iowaman
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting IndianaPilot (Reply 25):
Let the best qualified person get hired, regardless of race. Not only is it fair, but the citizens and residents deserve to have the best qualified people serving them. Just like the firefighter oath states....serve and protect to the BEST of our ability.......

 checkmark 

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 26):
If I were a white man seeking a job there, I'd file a lawsuit claiming I was discriminated against. But, since I'm fighting an affirmative action situation, I'd be the one labeled in the media as racist and insensitive.

 checkmark 

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 26):
I hate affirmative action...END IT...don't MEND IT.

 checkmark 

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 26):
In a case like this, everyone starts at 0 points. If you have 0 points in the end, then you aren't someone who should be a fireman.

 checkmark 

Those are so true and my points exactly.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:40 pm

It has been mentioned that people have died as a result of afirmative action, due to substandard firefighters etc being hired. This may well be the case but I doubt a death could ever be firmly sttributed to this, especially given that these jobs are dangerous anyway and deaths occur even when all of the employees are at the top of their game.

In the interest of balance in terms of this little debate, is there anyone here who is from a group that receives any benefits from affirmative action on the basis of race etc. Do you think it devalues or adds value to your contribution to society?

For the people who are against Affirmative Action, I completely understand why you would be. But I ask you, what is your impression of what affirmative action is trying to achieve, (even if it is failing in it's objective)?
 
mrocktor
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 28):
But I ask you, what is your impression of what affirmative action is trying to achieve, (even if it is failing in it's objective)?

My impression is that it is ultimately evil. It is trying to achieve a proportional distribution of race in all fields of endeavor - irrespective of ability. This, of course, comes at the expense of those more able that were not of the right race to fit the statistics. It is evil because it puts race above ability - and that is the very definition of racism.

It is also stupid. It is just as stupid as if an "affirmative action" program were started to combat the racial unbalance of the USA's olympic basketball team. Clearly "we need more white people", the affirmative actioneers would claim. We would then leave out good black players, and take white guys that are worse - to be fair. Who would gain by this scheme? Everyone loses. Even the white guy who wouldn't make the cut and got in by the "quota" loses - he is in the olympics but he and all his peers know he does not deserve it.

And then there is the white guy who actually is good - who will live with the eternal shadow of "would he have made it if he were not white?".

Affirmative action is 100% wrong, no matter how you look at it.

mrocktor
 
Superfly
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:45 am

Is a link to this 'story' too much to ask for?
Bring back the Concorde
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Is a link to this 'story' too much to ask for?



Quoting Iowaman (Thread starter):
As heard from a lieutenant,

There is no link, please read the full thread starter in the future.


I did a brief search on Lexis-Nexis, which turned no articles on this particular topic. I did find volumes on hiring quotas based on race still being in place at fire and police departments all over the country. A quota is saying "you aren't bright enough to get the job on your own, so we will give it to you anyway because of your color." That is pretty much the same thing as giving someone an automatic 20% on a hiring test based on color. It may be a case where Chicago determines how many minorities they want to hire, and then they adjust the test criteria based on the needs... It is pretty messed up, especially if you are more qualified, and don't get the job because you are white. I guess reverse racism just doesn't happen though.  sarcastic 
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Superfly
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 31):
There is no link, please read the full thread starter in the future.

Perhaps the thread starter should be aware that people aren't going to take him/her seriously unless they have some facts to back up there statement.

Sure many of you in this thread may not agree with affirmative action policies but hey, we can live with that.
Bring back the Concorde
 
jaysit
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 26):
In a case like this, everyone starts at 0 points. If you have 0 points in the end, then you aren't someone who should be a fireman.

What if one guy has 90 points and the other has 88 points?

The choices aren't usually between 0 and 100, but between 90 and 88. Its at that point where other characteristics fall into play. Should a black man who got 88 be pushed ahead of the guy who got 90 just because he's black? No. Are there other secondary factors that fall into play because he's black? For example, is he more knowledgeable about the neighborhoods in the city that are mostly black? Can he persuade black neighborhoods and home owners to better protect their homes against fires, by virtue of his race allowing him access to these people? Perhaps. It may rankle those of us who think we live - or should live - in a race-blind world, but such lofty ideals are often hard to attain.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 24):
The only police and fire department who doesn't hire based on affirmative action is the NYPD and NYFD, and every year they have to pay a fine to the EEOC for not hiring by their guidelines. New York understands that they want they want the best of the best, not the best of the rest.

That's untrue. Besides, you can't get out of this conundrum just by paying a fine. In fact, after the NYFD lost 15 black firemen in the 9-11 WTC inferno, their numbers obviously went way down. This resulted in a big promotion effort by the NYFD to hire black firemen.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 24):
I know a bunch of firefighters in Milwaukee and they will all say that if you are a young, in shape white guy, don't bother, you don't fit the criteria.

You're not implying that they're only hiring blacks and other minorities, are you? The son of a colleague of mine who lives in Virginia (who is white) was just hired as a freshman firemen in the District of Columbia Fire Dept (which by just a casual glance is still predominantly white).
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
omoo
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:57 am

I dont think these fire departments collect ethnic data before the person takes a test, common sense would say the data is collected after the test results ? i could be wrong ........
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lentigomaligna
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 19):
If I'm not mistaken the courts have ruled such programs illegal.

If I recall freshman Poli Sci correctly, SCotUS ruled that quotas that are illegal, but racially-based affirmative action is very much permissible. Mechanized racial preference is pretty much illegal, and I'd think this applies here. There's a very thin line here.

In my opinion affirmative action should reflect true disadvantage and not superficialities like race-and only employed where other factors aren't compelling enough to make a firm decision between candidates.

See the Bakke case and
Gratz v. Bollinger

[Edited 2005-12-20 21:13:49]
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 33):
What if one guy has 90 points and the other has 88 points?

The choices aren't usually between 0 and 100, but between 90 and 88. Its at that point where other characteristics fall into play. Should a black man who got 88 be pushed ahead of the guy who got 90 just because he's black? No. Are there other secondary factors that fall into play because he's black? For example, is he more knowledgeable about the neighborhoods in the city that are mostly black? Can he persuade black neighborhoods and home owners to better protect their homes against fires, by virtue of his race allowing him access to these people? Perhaps. It may rankle those of us who think we live - or should live - in a race-blind world, but such lofty ideals are often hard to attain.

The point I was trying to make is that everyone who takes the test start out with 0 points. No extra bonus, nothing. If there's 100 points possible, and the minimum passing score is say 70, than anyone who scores 70 and above moves forward in the interview process. I would hope that this test is not the sole determinant of who gets hired. If a white man and a black man have 90 points each, then perhaps the black man will be hired because he happens to have knowledge of the neighborhood which will help in public safety matters like you described. But, that knowledge is based on his own merit, not something that was automatically handed to him before he even sat down to take the test!
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jaysit
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RE: Chicago FD: Blacks Get 20% Boost In Test Score

Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 36):
The point I was trying to make is that everyone who takes the test start out with 0 points. No extra bonus, nothing.

I agree.
And the Supreme Court has made it quite clear that this sort of nonsense is not to be allowed.
Atheism is Myth Understood.

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