QANTAS077
Topic Author
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US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:08 pm

jeeeez, if you thought you couldn't alienate a particular group of people anymore then read this...  Sad

US Muslims radiation tested
From correspondents in Washington
24dec05

THE US Government has a top secret program to monitor the homes, workplaces and mosques of Muslims in at least six cities for signs of nuclear radiation, the magazine US News and World Report reported on its website.

But a senior Muslim community official said yesterday the program amounted to "scapegoating" US Muslims and "governing by fear".

Up to 120 Muslim sites in the Washington area, and more in New York, Chicago, Seattle, Detroit and Las Vegas, have been regularly monitored for radiation for more than three years over concerns about nuclear terrorism following the September 11, 2001 attacks, US News reported.

http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/c...ge/0,7034,17657083%255E401,00.html
 
theCoz
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:12 pm

The monitoring was done in public, so there's no reason for a search warrant. You can monitor a building's radiation from the outside.
 
cfalk
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:18 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Thread starter):
But a senior Muslim community official said yesterday the program amounted to "scapegoating" US Muslims and "governing by fear".

Tell them from my side that if they don't understand the dangers after 9/11 from a lot of people who call themselves muslims, then I suggest they leave.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:24 pm

I don't guess I have a real problem with this.

If the monitoring was done legally, and the reasons are as stated in the article, then it makes sense.

I'm sure a threat of a nucular attack within the borders of this country won't come from Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, Buddists . . . so - why look there? Why monitor things there? Why not go where the trouble might be? Regardless of whether you find anything . . . . rather like the TSA checking Granny's knitting bag or suspiciously eyeing a bottle of breast milk . . . don't really think either of those is a hazard to flight. Pay attention to the things that could present a problem!

By the by - Merry Christmas Monte!
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
usnseallt82
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:55 pm

I read about this and have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. I think the media just blew it way out of proportion today.

The real story is that certain Muslim groups and organizations were surveyed for radiation OUTSIDE of each property in question. Not every Muslim in the nation was targeted, which is what the media and this thread would have you believe. The DoD and DoE have loooooooonnnnnnngggggggg been monitoring the U.S. mainland, territories, and territorial waters for nuclear objects and radiation. This isn't anything new.

The nation has a right to test its own land for radiation and similar threats. I'm assure you that other groups of significant interest have been tested before, but you won't see those on the news because the ratings aren't behind them. None of the tests were done illegally and no rights of the individuals were breached. Simple as that.
Crye me a river
 
tbar220
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:26 pm

On the CBS radio news roundup, they said that the searches were done without warrants. If this is true, and warrants were needed, this is unaccpetable.

Even so, I still find it exceptionally stupid. We're trying so hard to say we're fighting a "war on terror" and not a "war on Islam", and yet we do this. Its basically saying they're suspects or threats even though they're ordinary citizens.
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jacobin777
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
Tell them from my side that if they don't understand the dangers after 9/11 from a lot of people who call themselves muslims, then I suggest they leave.

thanks for the "brilliant" comment........ butthead 
"Up the Irons!"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 5):
On the CBS radio news roundup, they said that the searches were done without warrants. If this is true, and warrants were needed, this is unaccpetable.

A warrant is only required if one is to break the curtilage of the property - except I know for sure in Oregon.

Thermal or Radioactive Detecting or Infra-Red sights do not count as searches and are non-invasive.

Therefore no warrant required. Except in Oregon . . . where some nutjobs think a thermal site can see through walls and clothes and skin and all that rot.

CBS didn't do their research TBar . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
SFOMEX
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:49 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
Tell them from my side that if they don't understand the dangers after 9/11 from a lot of people who call themselves muslims, then I suggest they leave.

I agree with ANCFlyer and others: I don't see a problem here. Yet, I find the last words of your post unacceptable. I bet many of those Muslims complaining are Americans, plenty of them by birth. Why they should leave their own country??? They have every right to express themselves, even if most of us don't agree with their complaints.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
usnseallt82
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:50 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
A warrant is only required if one is to break the curtilage of the property

Yep. You don't need a thing besides detection equipment to search for this stuff. The media outlets who have been bitching about rights of the individuals obviously didn't do ANY homework. In the cases documented so far, the scanning was done off of the property nearby...........you'll never get a court to overturn that.
Crye me a river
 
cfalk
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:30 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 8):
I agree with ANCFlyer and others: I don't see a problem here. Yet, I find the last words of your post unacceptable. I bet many of those Muslims complaining are Americans, plenty of them by birth. Why they should leave their own country??? They have every right to express themselves, even if most of us don't agree with their complaints.

I'm not suggesting that muslims should leave. I'm saying that any reasonable muslim will recognize that 9/11 and all the other terrorist actions that "muslims" have committed over the past 20-30 years, combined with the fact that most muslim nations and communities have still refused to this day to unequivicably condemn and repudiate all such behaviour (they usually bring in Israel or something stupid), has earned the muslim community special attention from police and anti-terrorist organizations.

We've been beating around the bush for several years, saying things like "islam is not the problem, it's terrorists." But people need to recognize that Islam, or more precisely certain interpretations of Islamic teaching are directly at the core of the problem. Decent Muslims around the world should be the first to join in the fight, in effect saying, "We feel our faith has been horribly perverted by these people, and we will help in every way we can to stop them".
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:11 am

Why worry if you have done nothing wrong? If you are Muslim American and there is a possibility that some of your "fellow" Muslims are possibly up to something illegal I would think you would welcome it.

Let them deal with it. It's all part of the world we live in post 9-11. You remember that right? When "Muslim" terrorists decided that their cause and Allah were more important than the ramifications their acts would cause.

Deal with it. Just deal with it.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
lesmainwaring
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I don't guess I have a real problem with this.

If the monitoring was done legally, and the reasons are as stated in the article, then it makes sense.



 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

It was done outside the building and no personal liberties seemed to be intruded upon. With probable cause (and an appropriate search warrant given by a court) I wouldn't even have a problem with searching inside.

No one was personally affronted, and nothing illegal was done.

...
The Lester Mainwaring Party
...
I want something under my wheels thats plenty long and mighty dry --- Vern Demarest
 
RichardPrice
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
Tell them from my side that if they don't understand the dangers after 9/11 from a lot of people who call themselves muslims, then I suggest they leave.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):

I'm not suggesting that muslims should leave. I'm saying that any reasonable muslim will recognize that 9/11 and all the other terrorist actions that "muslims" have committed over the past 20-30 years, combined with the fact that most muslim nations and communities have still refused to this day to unequivicably condemn and repudiate all such behaviour (they usually bring in Israel or something stupid), has earned the muslim community special attention from police and anti-terrorist organizations.

I guess we should also watch out for white Christian males, after one blew up a building in Oklahoma and lots hole up in various mountain ranges, under the guise of supremacists. How about all Irish after all the bombs set by the IRA and related terrorist groups?

Do. Not. Stereotype. People.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 13):
Do. Not. Stereotype. People.

Agreed. Just profile them.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
from a lot of people who call themselves muslims,

"a lot of people" ? really so many ? not rather simply SOME ?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
I suggest they leave.

you conclude that whomever criticizes steps of the US federal administration does NOT "understand" realities. While in reality simply many people simply regard steps of that administration as wrong. Are you always demanding people who oppose the government to get out of the country in question ?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I have a real problem with this

my problem with this is that to have such a thing public automatically results in potential culprits moving whatever stuff they (whomever) may have to a "secure" location. The mistake happened when it became known.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 4):
The real story is that certain Muslim groups and organizations were surveyed for radiation OUTSIDE of each property in question. Not every Muslim in the nation was targeted, which is what the media and this thread would have you believe.

but why did it become KNOWN ? Whomever has such material in the cupboard will when hearing about such a "supervision" try to move the stuff to another more secure place.
 
SlamClick
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:21 am

The news story I watched on two different networks (neither of them Fox) mentioned that not one surveillance was done on the basis of Islamicness but in response to "other" intelligence.

Is the thread starter claiming that this is not so?
Has this been disproven?

or

Is this thread overblown?

* * *


Unless one thinks that there is some inherent human right to keep highly radioactive materials in the home, I cannot think of any way anyone was harmed by sweeps for radiation. What harm has been done? Hell, sweep my house too!

[Edited 2005-12-27 01:32:27]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
The news story I watched on two different networks (neither of them Fox) mentioned that not one surveillance was done on the basis of Islamicness but in response to "other" intelligence.

but, again and again, WHY do such things become PUBLIC in the USA before they are done ? to warn potential culprits ? yours is a most weird country indeed !
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
Is this thread overblown?

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
halls120
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
but, again and again, WHY do such things become PUBLIC in the USA before they are done ? to warn potential culprits ? yours is a most weird country indeed !

Because someone wants to sabotage the program by making it public and drumming up opposition to it?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Dougloid
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
A warrant is only required if one is to break the curtilage of the property - except I know for sure in Oregon.

Thermal or Radioactive Detecting or Infra-Red sights do not count as searches and are non-invasive.

Therefore no warrant required. Except in Oregon . . . where some nutjobs think a thermal site can see through walls and clothes and skin and all that rot.

CBS didn't do their research TBar . . .

If there's no prosecution in the offing, then the 4th amendment is not implicated even if there's a warrantless search, because the right arises only in response to a resulting prosecution. And, it's personal. So let's say that we were monitoring house A and Mr. X, and we used the information gathered to get a warrant and search house B and Mr. Y, Mister Y doesn't have anything to complain about because the right's personal.

At least that's what they taught me in con law I & II LOL

And anyway, why not just wait til dark, suit up in lead underwear and grab the ones that glow in the dark?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
Because someone wants to sabotage the program by making it public and drumming up opposition to it?

the BAD thing about it is that you may be right. If the suspicion has been correct it is bad for the security of your nation and possibly the world, if it was wrong it is bad as the suspicion will linger on and damage many many innocent Muslims in the USA, without ANY advantage what might be called "national security interests" . A mind-boggling contradiction in itself !
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 22):
So let's say that we were monitoring house A and Mr. X, and we used the information gathered to get a warrant and search house B and Mr. Y, Mister Y doesn't have anything to complain about because the right's personal.

 checkmark 

If I'm on a surveillance of some scumbag A and happen to notice another scumbag B doing something stupid, then I can use that against scumbag B, and he has no rights against it. NO different than seeing a felony in progress and taking appropriate action. Too bad for Scumbag B, wrong place at wrong time.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jacobin777
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I'm sure a threat of a nucular attack within the borders of this country won't come from Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, Buddists . . . so - why look there? Why monitor things there? Why not go where the trouble might be?

yah....tell that to the families of the Oklahoma city bombing that white anglo/saxon men don't commit terror/bombing......

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 2):
Tell them from my side that if they don't understand the dangers after 9/11 from a lot of people who call themselves muslims, then I suggest they leave.



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 8):
Yet, I find the last words of your post unacceptable. I bet many of those Muslims complaining are Americans, plenty of them by birth. Why they should leave their own country??? They have every right to express themselves, even if most of us don't agree with their complaints.

he finds every excuse/thread to bash Muslims...and then hides behind.."that's not what I meant" and "i have muslim friends"... sarcastic 

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 11):
Why worry if you have done nothing wrong? If you are Muslim American and there is a possibility that some of your "fellow" Muslims are possibly up to something illegal I would think you would welcome it.

because its called PROFILING which is illegal in the United States.....can't just can't say that since 9/11 was committed by "Muslim" terrorists so ALL Muslims are terrorists so lets scope Mosques and houses...

just like there are many african american and latinos who commit felonies..in fact, it certain regions, 30% of african americans and latinos commit some kind of felony...does that mean we target ALL african americans and latinos??? Hey why not..there is a 30% chance that one of them will commit some kind of felony, so out of say 1,000 african americans/latinos living in a particular location, a few HUNDRED will commit a felony....lets get them in advance.....once agian, does that mean we target them??????absolutely not...... no 

Want to fight the war on terror? How about fighting/something which is rotting the United States from the inside....its called DRUGS!

for the amount this administration has spent on the "war on terror"....this administration could have probably stopped 1/3 of the narcotings coming into the United States, not to mention, build hundreds, if not thousands of schools and hire some of the best and most talented teachers out there who have decided not to teach or who have quit teaching..

for a "westernised" nation, the United States has some of the lowest maths and sciences scores compared to its peers...PATHETIC!

now I'm not saying that the aministration shouldn't be trying to prevent America from psychos, and I do agree that the United States was right in removing the Taliban for harboring Al Queda and Bin Laden, but the Iraqi invasion was a MAJOUR mistake and blunder!

Quoting LesMainwaring (Reply 12):
t was done outside the building and no personal liberties seemed to be intruded upon.

once again, it might not have been "technically" illegal, but racial targeting is certainly a no no!!!
"Up the Irons!"
 
Dougloid
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
If I'm on a surveillance of some scumbag A and happen to notice another scumbag B doing something stupid, then I can use that against scumbag B, and he has no rights against it. NO different than seeing a felony in progress and taking appropriate action. Too bad for Scumbag B, wrong place at wrong time.

Well, it's a little more remote than that.

The point is that the 4th amendment is personal. If evidence is discovered in the course of an illegal search of the residence of A, which also implicates B in something, even though A may get the evidence suppressed in State v. A, that does not compel the exclusion of the same evidence in a prosecution against B.

On the other hand when B's attorney brings this all out it will not sell real well to a jury if it's a property crime and they might just indulge in a little bit of jury nullification.



You don't even have to see B doing something stoopid.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:56 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
yah....tell that to the families of the Oklahoma city bombing that white anglo/saxon men don't commit terror/bombing......

I did NOT bring anything about race into this conversation . . . . I did NOT say anything about white anglo/saxon.

Let me refresh your short memory:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I'm sure a threat of a nucular attack within the borders of this country won't come from Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, Buddists . . . so - why look there?

Apparently your comprehension skills need work . . . and you're the one tossing about racial issues. Let me ask you a question? Do you think it remotely possible an Asian could be Buddist? Do you think it remotely possible as black person could be Presbyterian? Do you think it remotely possible an Arab looking person could be Catholic? DO you think it a slight possibility that a white person could be muslim???

Your argument here holds no water and is inflammatory and an attempt to divert this thread and toss a race card where no need exists. Try again.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
because its called PROFILING which is illegal in the United States

INCORRECT again. Profiling is used all the time and is a very, very effective tool. As I've said in a dozen other posts. What is usually done by lay-persons - like yourself here obviously - is to confuse profiling with racism. Therein lies your error.

Want an example, here you go: If I'm working a drug case and I know the suspect is Samoan, and I'm in Fairview section of Anchorage - do you think I ought to pay real close attention to the three young native Alaskans and the two old white folks walking down the street? Hmmmm  scratchchin ? Or dop you think perhaps I ought to pay attention to the two South Pacific Island-looking gents I see across the street?

Profiling works. Profiling is effective. Profilng is NOT racism, it's misinterpreted as such by people ignorant of how to use it.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
for a "westernised" nation, the United States has some of the lowest maths and sciences scores compared to its peers...PATHETIC!

And this has what, exactly, to do with the thread subject?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
can't just can't say that since 9/11 was committed by "Muslim" terrorists so ALL Muslims are terrorists so lets scope Mosques and houses...

I've never heard anyone say, All Muslims Are Terrorists. But since Muslim extremist did in fact carry out said 9/11 attack, do you think we should be monitoring the Southern Baptist (crazy as they are) instead of the muslim mosques???? If that's your assessment it is simply and utterly stupid. No other way to say it - just plain stupid. Look for the trouble where the trouble might be . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jacobin777
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
I did NOT bring anything about race into this conversation . . . . I did NOT say anything about white anglo/saxon.

Let me refresh your short memory:

ummm....and where did I quote you for a response  confused 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Your argument here holds no water and is inflammatory and an attempt to divert this thread and toss a race card where no need exists. Try again.

to respond..it isn't.....i was making a comparison of the situation where I feel muslims, of which there are basically two kinds.....Arabs and Indians/Pakistanis are being targeted...."hundreds of houses and mosques" on so-called "credible" sources...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Profiling works. Profiling is effective. Profilng is NOT racism, it's misinterpreted as such by people ignorant of how to use it.

wrong....

"Nonetheless, 27 states have enacted no law to ban or curb racial profiling." which means 23 have either curbed or banned racial profiling...


"Racial Profiling: Definition

"Racial Profiling" refers to the discriminatory practice by law enforcement officials of targeting individuals for suspicion of crime based on the individual's race, ethnicity, religion or national origin. Criminal profiling, generally, as practiced by police, is the reliance on a group of characteristics they believe to be associated with crime. Examples of racial profiling are the use of race to determine which drivers to stop for minor traffic violations (commonly referred to as "driving while black or brown"), or the use of race to determine which pedestrians to search for illegal contraband.

Another example of racial profiling is the targeting, ongoing since the September 11th attacks, of Arabs, Muslims and South Asians for detention on minor immigrant violations in the absence of any connection to the attacks on the World Trade Center or the Pentagon. "

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/ra...lprofiling/21741res20051123.html#1


"Is racial profiling real? Most Americans think so. A July 2001 Gallup poll reported that 55 percent of whites and 83 percent of blacks believe racial profiling is widespread. And the reports of thousands of racial and ethnic group members across the country add credibility to the perception that racial profiling is real. These are stories from all walks of life, not just hardworking everyday people, but celebrities, professional athletes, and members of the military. Also, reports of racial profiling come from respected members of communities of color such as police commanders, prosecutors, judges, state legislators, lawyers, dentists and even representatives in Congress, who have been victims.

Racial profiling is a new term for an old practice known by other names: institutional racism and discrimination and owes its existence to prejudice that has existed in this country since slavery. "

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialprofiling/index.html


not to mention...there is the ""End Racial Profiling Act" (ERPA) which should pass in 2006 and ban racial profiling....

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/ra...ialprofiling/23090prs20051219.html

"New York, June 27, 2005)�Operating behind a wall of secrecy, the U.S. Department of Justice thrust scores of Muslim men living in the United States into a Kafkaesque world of indefinite detention without charge and baseless accusations of terrorist links, Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union said in a report released today.Following the September 11 attacks, the Justice Department held the 70 men�all but one Muslim�under a narrow federal law that permits the arrest and brief detention of �material witnesses� who have important information about a crime, if they might otherwise flee to avoid testifying before a grand jury or in court. Although federal officials suspected the men of involvement in terrorism, they held them as material witnesses, not criminal suspects.

Almost half of the witnesses were never brought before a grand jury or court to testify. The U.S. government has apologized to 13 for wrongfully detaining them. Only a handful were ever charged with crimes related to terrorism.

�These men were victims of a Justice Department that was willing to do an end run around the law,� said Jamie Fellner, director of Human Rights Watch�s U.S. Program. �Criminal suspects are treated better than these material witnesses were.�

The 101-page report, �Witness to Abuse: Human Rights Abuses under the Material Witness Law since September 11,� documents how the Justice Department denied the witnesses fundamental due process safeguards. Many were not informed of the reason for their arrest, allowed immediate access to a lawyer, nor permitted to see the evidence used against them. The Justice Department evaded fundamental protections for the suspects and the legal requirements for arrested witnesses. Their court proceedings were conducted behind closed doors, and all the court documents were sealed.

The report details how the Justice Department relied on false, flimsy or irrelevant evidence to secure arrest warrants for the men and to persuade courts that they were flight risks who had to be incarcerated. Almost all the men, in fact, had cooperated with federal authorities before their arrest. Many proved to have no information relevant to a criminal proceeding.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/27/usdom11213.htm


later...
"Up the Irons!"
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1318
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
I've never heard anyone say, All Muslims Are Terrorists

Indirectly thats what the guy quoted below is accusing muslims off. Read between the lines  beady 

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
I'm not suggesting that muslims should leave. I'm saying that any reasonable muslim will recognize that 9/11 and all the other terrorist actions that "muslims" have committed over the past 20-30 years, combined with the fact that most muslim nations and communities have still refused to this day to unequivicably condemn and repudiate all such behaviour (they usually bring in Israel or something stupid), has earned the muslim community special attention from police and anti-terrorist organizations.

We've been beating around the bush for several years, saying things like "islam is not the problem, it's terrorists." But people need to recognize that Islam, or more precisely certain interpretations of Islamic teaching are directly at the core of the problem. Decent Muslims around the world should be the first to join in the fight, in effect saying, "We feel our faith has been horribly perverted by these people, and we will help in every way we can to stop them".
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:36 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
wrong....

Nope, not wrong . . . .

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
"Nonetheless, 27 states have enacted no law to ban or curb racial profiling." which means 23 have either curbed or banned racial profiling

And therefore, they qualify for this comment.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Profilng is NOT racism, it's misinterpreted as such by people ignorant of how to use it.

Racial Profiling - profiling based on RACE is wrong as hell. Profiling for a specific target, is not.

You never answered my questions:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Let me ask you a question? Do you think it remotely possible an Asian could be Buddist? Do you think it remotely possible as black person could be Presbyterian? Do you think it remotely possible an Arab looking person could be Catholic? Do you think it a slight possibility that a white person could be muslim???

So this Racial  redflag  you brought up holds no water. Because this surveillance was done as Mosques doesn't make it racial - only you and a few others who can't see past race make it so.

If I was a Muslim Extremist terrorist - be I black, white, asian, arab, martian or otherwise - and I wanted to store some shit to blow you up with, where do you think I might put it???

Since everyone is so blasted concerned about not desecrating a mosque I think, perhaps, I'd put it THERE!  idea 

About time we quite playing the race card every time something occurs and start worrying about the real issues . . . . target the trouble spot.

I see your definitions for Racial Profiling came from our friends at the ACLU . . . .  laughing  laughing  . . . the credibility of a scrub brush. I can wordsmith any sort of definition I want to swing which ever way I want if I have an agenda like the ACLU.

The bleeding heart ACLU would vote to let Hitler loose today if he were around I'm sure . . . the only organization I find more useless is the TSA.

Muslim extremist blew up our buildings and crashed our airplanes . . . I don't think we need to be going after Fred the Farmer in rural Iowa or Juan the Restaurant Owner in Southest San Antonio or ANCFlyer the Cop in Northern Alaska . . . lets worry about the trouble spots . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Newark777
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:36 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):

I'll trust the cop over the ACLU.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
joness0154
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:58 pm

Theres a huge difference between a nutjob that blew up the building in OKC and thousands of "religious" individuals who are fighting a religious based jihad.

Its like comparing apples to oranges, folks.

You can bet yourself that if a few hardcore Christians/Buddists/Jews/etc started a war based on religion that some of their kind would be monitored too.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:02 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
blew up our buildings and crashed our airplanes .

sorry, "our buildings" "our airplanes" ?? ALL of them ? you all now live in tents and travel by horse ? <> it was 4/four airplanes and it was 3/three buildings plus one.
-
Just to put matters into proper perspectives. True, the culprits were Arab Muslims, but neither THE Arabs nor THE Muslims .
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:03 pm

I hear "RACIAL profiling" while it may at worst be "ethnic" or "cultural" profiling. And I think it rather is prejudice, which will slowly die down if things go acceptably well.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:16 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
sorry, "our buildings" "our airplanes" ??

Geezuz, do I have to spell it out for you??? You know exactly what I mean, and so does anyone else reading this . . . your lame attempt at turning this into something it is not doesn't work.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
I hear "RACIAL profiling" while it may at worst be "ethnic" or "cultural" profiling.

What you "hear" and what others less educated or already prejudiced themselves "hear" is RACIAL Profiling, when in fact what is being practiced is "CRIMINAL Profiling". Totally different animals. I've explained it in many ways in many threads. Do a search.

Even the lawmakers in some states are ignorant of the definitions. I'm tired of explaining them over and over and over.

Profiling for a criminal set is fine. That's what is going on here as far as this thread is concerned. No one is targeting MUSLIMS, the target is a criminal element that probably happens to be Muslim. It would be no different if the hijackers on 9/11 had been White Anglo Saxon Neo-Nazis. Not much difference between those assholes and the Muslim extremists that blew up our buildings and crashed our airplanes and killed those thousands of people.

WOuld the outcry from the gawddamn ACLU be as loud - would this thread even have gotten started - if the NSA or FBI were surveilling farm houses in Iowa or Nebraska or Kansas looking for White Anglo-Saxon Neo-Nazis.

Hellll No. Just gives someone yet another excuse to toss out race as an issue where there is none.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:27 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
"CRIMINAL Profiling". Totally different animals. I've explained it in many ways in many threads.

No reason for any search as THIS is how I understand the situation. It however is the usual thing worldwide to adjust such "profilings" in the "fine tunes" on an almost daily basis, and in other countries, such things in general are NOT PUBLIC WISDOM but kept as confidential as possible. What is irritating is that such things in the USA are a matter of general public discussion. True, to realize to be "profiled" can be most uncomfortable, for instance when you during a day of aircraft-photography get police-controlled not less then 4/four times. But after some time, they knew me and there was no longer any problem. What to do ? Keep calm and polite and co-operative, and keep your nerves, and continue "business-as-usual-ways".
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
What is irritating is that such things in the USA are a matter of general public discussion.

Generally predicated by and blown out of proportion by the damned media. Every dimbulb talk show host and news show host will beat the horse to death. And then along come the ignorant or unaware public and immediately in this case, it's a race issue and not one of criminal investigation.

Looking at my example here . . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
If I'm working a drug case and I know the suspect is Samoan, and I'm in Fairview section of Anchorage - do you think I ought to pay real close attention to the three young native Alaskans and the two old white folks walking down the street? Hmmmm  scratchchin  ? Or dop you think perhaps I ought to pay attention to the two South Pacific Island-looking gents I see across the street?

THis is an example of Criminal profiling. But improperly reported, and the first thing you'll hear, ANCFlyer is racially profiling South Pacific Islanders.

It would be no different depending on the neighborhood being worked in Anchorage. Easy enough to line out. Experience tells me if I'm working in South Anchorage - on a narcotics case - my primary target will be white males, age 18-30 (+/-). In Mountainview, it will be Black Males, same ages brackets. It's that simple. It's not racial, it's fact. Only the ACLU and bleeding heart idiots blow it out of proportion and get it wrong in the news.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
halls120
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
THis is an example of Criminal profiling. But improperly reported, and the first thing you'll hear, ANCFlyer is racially profiling South Pacific Islanders.

It would be no different depending on the neighborhood being worked in Anchorage. Easy enough to line out. Experience tells me if I'm working in South Anchorage - on a narcotics case - my primary target will be white males, age 18-30 (+/-). In Mountainview, it will be Black Males, same ages brackets. It's that simple. It's not racial, it's fact. Only the ACLU and bleeding heart idiots blow it out of proportion and get it wrong in the news.

If a law enforcement officer tells you he/she doesn't profile, they are either lying or are incompetent. Every experienced law enforcement officer profiles. To require that they stop profiling would require that they disregard all their training and all the experience they've gained while on the job - which would be absolutely ridiculous.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):
To require that they stop profiling would require that they disregard all their training and all the experience they've gained while on the job - which would be absolutely ridiculous.

Which is one reason the TSA is a failure. . . a prime example of how to fail utterly is to "not look in the right place" for the bad guys . . .

I'll be the first to tell you I profile criminals right now, all the time. As Halls said, I'd be a liar or an idiot if I didn't . . . it works, it gets the job done and it isn't racial . . . until a racist makes it so.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
pilotaydin
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:18 pm

I myself am Muslim, and to be honest, if this is the process, and it helps security and safety, then why oppose it. It's factual now that this is a war which is religion based. Besides, if you haven't done anything wrong, you show up clear and you're on your way, what the hell is the fuss about?
There is less and less room in the world for ethics....if ethical rules and PC are followed any longer, world war 3 is going to break out... let's just admit it...let the authorities do what they need to do, so that the scum can be found and filtered....

Unfortunately for those Muslims living and born in the USA, this may be a violation of some of their rights...but it's for your own good...accept it

im sick of the two faced people that complain security is a joke, this is a joke that is a joke, this org sucks, fbi cia sucks...then when they try to do something everyone gets all up in arms about ethics...

booya
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
cfalk
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 13):
I guess we should also watch out for white Christian males, after one blew up a building in Oklahoma and lots hole up in various mountain ranges, under the guise of supremacists. How about all Irish after all the bombs set by the IRA and related terrorist groups?

Let's see. One bombing was done by a couple of guys who wanted something or other, and who just happened by chance to be non-practicing christians. The IRA were looking for political independence, the fact that they were largely catholic had nothing to do with their motivations - which were secular and political. Al Qaeda and other islamic fundementalist groups base their entire movement on the religion. The primary motivation is religious, including the promise of a place in heaven for people who blow up infidels.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
"a lot of people" ? really so many ? not rather simply SOME ?

How many people are directly or indirectly involved with Al Qaeda and associated terrorist groups. 10,000? 20,000? More? I would call that a lot of people, not just some.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
you conclude that whomever criticizes steps of the US federal administration does NOT "understand" realities. While in reality simply many people simply regard steps of that administration as wrong. Are you always demanding people who oppose the government to get out of the country in question ?

Admit it, you just made all that up. it has nothing to do with what I said, which is that any reasonable person should recognize that Al Qaeda and other organizations have given Muslims (Arab muslims in particular) a very bad reputation. Anyone who does not understand this, I believe, is irrational, and part of the problem.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
he finds every excuse/thread to bash Muslims...and then hides behind.."that's not what I meant" and "i have muslim friends"...

Show me where I bashed muslims, with the exception of the ignorant ones who refuse to see what is happening to their religion.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Profiling works. Profiling is effective. Profilng is NOT racism, it's misinterpreted as such by people ignorant of how to use it.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
How many people are directly or indirectly involved with Al Qaeda and associated terrorist groups. 10,000? 20,000?

maybe some 10000 upto 20'000, not more, and THAT is a relatively small group, whenever extremely dangerous

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
you conclude that whomever criticizes steps of the US federal administration does NOT "understand" realities. While in reality simply many people simply regard steps of that administration as wrong. Are you always demanding people who oppose the government to get out of the country in question ?
-.-
Admit it, you just made all that up. it has nothing to do with what I said

I did NOT make anything up, it was you who encourage people opposing US government politics to emigrate

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
that Al Qaeda and other organizations have given Muslims (Arab muslims in particular) a very bad reputation

NOBODY claims that el-Qaeda particularily improved the reputation of Arabs or Muslims in the world in general, and in the USA in particular. Your indirect suggestion that people who believe that eQ was/is good PR, should visit the doctor, is a bit beside the point really.
 
cfalk
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
maybe some 10000 upto 20'000, not more, and THAT is a relatively small group, whenever extremely dangerous

If I had to invite them all to a party, that's a lot of people to me.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
I did NOT make anything up, it was you who encourage people opposing US government politics to emigrate

You are putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned, nor do I care of what the US government thinks on this issue. I simply don't want irrational people around me, and if being around rational people bothers them, they might consider going to live in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Syria with other like-minded kooks. Ir if they are REALLY nuts, they can go to California and fit right in.  Smile

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
NOBODY claims that el-Qaeda particularily improved the reputation of Arabs or Muslims in the world in general, and in the USA in particular. Your indirect suggestion that people who believe that eQ was/is good PR, should visit the doctor, is a bit beside the point really.

Now you are spinning so fast you could have another career as a propeller. I said that AQ was bad PR, nothing more or less, and implied that at worst, some irrational people think that AQ's actions have no impact on how people see Arab Muslims. I in no way said that some think it was good PR - you made that up all by yourself to try to make me look bad. That is a dishonest argument.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
I simply don't want irrational people around me, and if being around rational people bothers them, they might consider

understandable. BUT who does decide about who is "rational" and who is "irrational" ?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
they might consider going to live in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Syria with other like-minded kooks.

people in Syria are mostly rational people and NOT "kooks". I not only visited Damascus, but also for some time had an Arabic-teacheress from Damascus. She and her friends (who sometimes turned up) were completely rational .

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
you made that up all by yourself to try to make me look bad.

NO, I did NEVER try to make you look bad. Your only problem is that you often get grumpy if meeting NON-approval .
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
I in no way said that some think it was good PR

Really ? You said ::

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
any reasonable person should recognize that Al Qaeda and other organizations have given Muslims (Arab muslims in particular) a very bad reputation. Anyone who does not understand this, I believe, is irrational, and part of the problem.

which clearly shows that you expect some people NOT to understand your statement. While I do NOT believe that there is anybody on this forum who is that way, and very few such people in the world in general
 
joness0154
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
maybe some 10000 upto 20'000, not more, and THAT is a relatively small group, whenever extremely dangerous

10k or 20k people is a ton of people hell bent on delivering destruction to the United States.

They did it with less than 20 people on Sept 11th but there were surely more involved.

With upwards of 10k people I'd say this is a huge threat, wouldn't you?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
sorry, "our buildings" "our airplanes" ?? ALL of them ? you all now live in tents and travel by horse ? <> it was 4/four airplanes and it was 3/three buildings plus one.
-
Just to put matters into proper perspectives. True, the culprits were Arab Muslims, but neither THE Arabs nor THE Muslims .

Gimme a break. Yes, "our buildings" and "our airplanes"

Our =/ all.

They took our planes, and smashed them into our buildings. You can't really argue with that now, can you?

4 airplanes and multiple buildings were responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people, the downfall of OUR economy, the start of a new religious based war, and the start of a new world where profiling is essential for our survival.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
Toulouse
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 13):
I guess we should also watch out for white Christian males, after one blew up a building in Oklahoma and lots hole up in various mountain ranges, under the guise of supremacists. How about all Irish after all the bombs set by the IRA and related terrorist groups?

Do. Not. Stereotype. People.

The best post so far on this thread. It's so nice to have somebody such as Richard who posts sensible things on a.net.

Cfalk, sorry for asking, but you're not Swiss are you?
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
joness0154
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 47):
The best post so far on this thread. It's so nice to have somebody such as Richard who posts sensible things on a.net.

Cfalk, sorry for asking, but you're not Swiss are you?

His post made no sense at all. He was comparing apples to oranges.

The reason some muslims are being profiled is because they are fighting a war based on religion.

You can also bet that other nutjobs in the US and in Ireland are being profiled and watched, too.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
RichardPrice
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RE: US Muslims Radiation Tested

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 48):
The reason some muslims are being profiled is because they are fighting a war based on religion.

You can also bet that other nutjobs in the US and in Ireland are being profiled and watched, too.

My comment made perfect sense, when taken into context, and has nothing to do with profiling. It was made in reply that essentially stereotyped ALL Islamic followers as terrorists, and thats what I have a problem with.

Yes, there is profiling going on in Ireland, however noone has suggested that ALL Protestant or Catholic followers are terrorists, jsut that whomever is planting bombs, causing violence or carrying out punishment beatings happens to belong to one or the other. Other factors are involved.

But you wont hear calls for all Catholics or Protestants to leave. Thats just ludicrous.

Stereotyping is NOT profiling. Stereotyping is wrong. Profiling is just a data mining tool.

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