jafa39
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Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:47 pm

Logan22L's post in the end of the world thread has set me thinking, why, if being an extremist is such a bad thing that its worth spending millions on wars to kill them, is being a Liberal so bad?

Probably one for the yanks to answer.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Thread starter):
Probably one for the yanks to answer.

I disagree - I think it is an international question - although it does depend on your definition of "liberal".

So I think that if people are going to discuss the merits of weaknesses of "liberalism" they should define it within their own context.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
nosedive
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:53 pm

B/c we really don't mind the gays, women, or any minority group  sarcastic 
 
jafa39
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 1):
I disagree - I think it is an international question - although it does depend on your definition of "liberal".

True Jon but its the Americans who seem to have the most to say about it but don't let that stop you, I'm sure the Poms will say "Because they are useless lard-arses with no policies" or something along those lines  Smile
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 2):
B/c we really don't mind the gays, women, or any minority group

Don't you see the irony in your statement? In the same breath you can proclaim yourself as enlightened people who are civilized enough to accept all walks of life - gays, females, blacks, Hispanics, the poor, the underprivileged, etc... Yet at the same time totally stereotype an entire segment of society!

"We accept everyone... except for people who disagree with our political views"

-UH60
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jafa39
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
"We accept everyone... except for people who disagree with our political views"

Doesn't sound like a party-specific statement to me.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:06 pm

I guess I'm a liberal because I'm "left wing" on various social issues such as abortion and gay marriage. But does this a liberal make?

At the same time I believe that government has a responsibility not to interfere in the private lives of citizens (outside the basic civil and social responsibilities to those in need). This is a traditionally conservative opinion. Am I a conservative?

Is it possible to be a governmental conservative, a social liberal, and a believer in alternative forms of government (e.g: replacing monarchy with republic)?

Who is really qualified to say?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
stlgph
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:07 pm

being a liberal is bad because it is a nasty nasty genetic flaw in Intelligunt Desine that spreads bad disease on our precious children such as "unions," "not-so-iron-hymen," "legacy children with mediocre grades," "a 50% mandate," "national endowment of the arts and sciences," "stem cell research," "using alternative energy sources," and "consumption of imported french vodka."

[Edited 2006-01-06 05:07:53]
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KevinL1011
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:07 pm

Definition: "Liberal", and from what angle or perspective?
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:08 pm

Being liberal isn't bad...conservatives are just scared of us, so they act like we're a virus instead of dealing with their own problems.  Wink
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):

Sounds like you're a liberal with some closet conservative leanings.

I used to be quite conservative, but mainly because I didn't expect my government to look after anything except the economy. In more recent years, as I have seen Govt's take some bizarre actions on behalf of their people, I have come around to the fact that maybe we should rely on them to consider moral and social factors in their policy making as well.

So, having been on both sides of the fence, I will have a crack at answering the thread, (beware there will be some generalization here):

Conservatives are often guided by their interpretations of religious principles. Therefore Liberals can be seen as "sinners". By this reasoning, liberals are not just wrong, they are evil, and must be crushed!!

Liberals, as the name would suggest, tend to be more outwardly spoken regarding their views. Therefore more prone to protest etc. This is easily viewed as public nuisance, rather than exercising democratic rights. Conservatives don't tend to use organised protest unless they get their golf privileges curtailed at the country club.

Liberals tend to sell themselves as hyper-intellectuals. I myself find this quite annoying. Every student studying political science thinks they are the first to discover the injustices of the world.

Conservatives believe that they have built society on sensible economic reform, instead of more touchy-feely things like the developing psychology and culture of society. Liberals "sponging" of this economic success annoys them as it is seen as undermining to the most important societal building block, (to them anyway), economic growth.

Shit, post too long, back to work!
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:26 pm

OK, having been referenced in the thread-starter, I have to define some things:

1. Liberal - one who is willing to accept change
2. Conservative - one who isn't; wants the status quo

Now, these definitions are completely ridiculous.

My position:

1. The same Healthcare for everyone - employers pay for it w/ gov't subsidies;
2. Anything bedroom-related is off limits to any laws, unless abuse is involved, of course;
3. Church is church, not politics;
4. There are no tax-exempt organizations, and taxes are a flat percentage of everyone's income. No exeptions, no confusion;
5. Gov't personnel (i.e., Congress) are on a volunteer basis. No salary, no pension. Social security will be fixed within 6 hours;
6. There is no Real Estate business. Housing is limited to primary, secondary or business properties. If you don't live there or work there, you cannot own it. Rental properties for students and people transient will be controlled by the gov't. Don't worry, I'll be in charge, and I will fire people who suck. Property prices will go down. No one who does nothing except have money will ever make more money because of their fortune ever again.
7. Insurance is abolished as we know it. My Gov't controls insurance, and all incompetent people are fired. Problems arise, and lawyers are appointed to fix them. Anyone filing a suit that is determined to be false is jailed for life. Insurance should protect us, not rape us, and anyone on a Board of Directors of an Insurance Company who makes money for being a lazy, rich MF, should look very closely in their rearview mirror.

My "gun" is out, and it's pointed in your general direction.

[Edited 2006-01-06 05:48:08]
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searpqx
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:26 pm

The concept itself isn't bad, except in the mind of those scary few that truly believe an ordered society requires everyone think alike.

The term however, has become pejorative in American politics. There was a concerted effort by the Republicans, starting back in the 80s, to turn the term into something meaning anti-American, and for the most part they were succesful. Today one of the most damaging tags you can pin on someone is liberal. Even Kerry, a liberal Senator from a liberal state, found it necessary to try and disguise himself as a moderate. And since the ascendency of George W, far left extremist has been added to the anti-American connotation, making it a very potent weapon to be used against anybody not toeing the Republican line.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:28 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Thread starter):
if being an extremist is such a bad thing that its worth spending millions on wars to kill them, is being a Liberal so bad?

An extermist and a liberal are two totally different animals.

The spectrum usually goes:
- Radical
- Liberal
- Moderate
- Conservative
- Reactionary

What constitutes a liberal versus a conservative change from generation to generation. These days, a liberal and conservative believe in roughly the same end, but believe in different policy toward that end. No liberal in Congress believes the U.S. should be a Marxist state, but quite a few believe we need more attention to domestic issues like wages, enviornment, health care, etc.

Today, there are no radical, stable governments on friendly terms with the Western world. For different reasons, Iran and North Korea. Other figures like bin Laden are radical. They want a totally different end than mainstream society and will do anything (namely kill) to achieve it.

Because the stakes of human life are so high, I think the Western world not only should, but must, persue radical individuals and negotiate radical governments off the ledge.

---

One other thing:

Since modern "liberalism" began during the American/French Revolutions, liberal means to have a reasonable alternative. If I am a liberal revolutionary, I want to replace one government with another. Throughout the 18-19th century, this was monarchy to democracy. In the 20th century, democracy was the new "norm" and communism was the new "liberal" government. Communism has completly failed, and is now a totally discredited philosophy.

Thus, true liberals are dead. There is no reasonable form of society outside a capitalistic democracy or some variation thereof.

Radicals, however, do not have a reasonable alternative. Their end is unobtainable or unacceptable. Bin Laden's would be the destruction of 250 million Americans and millions of other westerners. That isn't what anyone would call a reasonable alternative to government. That doesn't stop them from trying... thus, steps must be taken to stop them.

[Edited 2006-01-06 05:35:25]
 
theCoz
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Don't you see the irony in your statement? In the same breath you can proclaim yourself as enlightened people who are civilized enough to accept all walks of life - gays, females, blacks, Hispanics, the poor, the underprivileged, etc... Yet at the same time totally stereotype an entire segment of society!

"We accept everyone... except for people who disagree with our political views"

-UH60

In order for one group of people to separate themeslves from another group of people, it takes an opposition. Liberals cannot be liberals unless we have conservatives.

Bottom line, this country needs both liberals AND conservatives. Without such checks and balances, there'd be no true democoracy.

Political views are a very funamental thing to every person's philosphy. I'd say the real problem doesn't lie with a person's views, per se; it has more to do with the person's ability to understand their opponent's views. That's where the political battle is won.
 
nosedive
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Don't you see the irony in your statement? In the same breath you can proclaim yourself as enlightened people who are civilized enough to accept all walks of life - gays, females, blacks, Hispanics, the poor, the underprivileged, etc... Yet at the same time totally stereotype an entire segment of society!

I never claimed any of that, so aren't you generalizing as well?  Wink Joking aside, the topic is somewhat of a loaded question. If I have to "prove" that being liberal isn't bad, I have to gauge it against itself and other ideologies.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 5):
Doesn't sound like a party-specific statement to me.

Pretty much.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:52 pm

Being Liberal isn't bad at all . . . . being Ignorant and Liberal is a tragedy.

The same is said for Conservatives. Being Conservative isn't bad at all. Being Ignorant and Conservative is a tragedy.

Having a closed mind on many issues can be said of both Liberals and Conservatives. That's worse than being Ignorant. At least one can teach the ignorant.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
Gov't personnel (i.e., Congress) are on a volunteer basis.

You think people would voluntarily choose to be endlessly abused and sued?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dw9115
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 7):
being a liberal is bad because it is a nasty nasty genetic flaw in Intelligunt Desine that spreads bad disease on our precious children such as "unions," "not-so-iron-hymen," "legacy children with mediocre grades," "a 50% mandate," "national endowment of the arts and sciences," "stem cell research," "using alternative energy sources," and "consumption of imported french vodka."

This kind of comment is why far left liberals piss people off. You should look at what ANCFlyer said in reply 16.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
Being liberal isn't bad...conservatives are just scared of us, so they act like we're a virus instead of dealing with their own problems.

You sholdn't point fingers until you deal with your own problems.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Being Liberal isn't bad at all . . . . being Ignorant and Liberal is a tragedy.

The same is said for Conservatives. Being Conservative isn't bad at all. Being Ignorant and Conservative is a tragedy.

Having a closed mind on many issues can be said of both Liberals and Conservatives. That's worse than being Ignorant. At least one can teach the ignorant.

Great point.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
You think people would voluntarily choose to be endlessly abused and sued?

This was the Founding Father's vision (i.e., free participation). I cannot speak for how times have changed. I have not been a part of that. I can only say that I have a vision for the future that encompasses fairness, not the status quo.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
nosedive
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 19):
This was the Founding Father's vision (i.e., free participation).

Heh, the Federalists and Anti-Federalists agreed on this?
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
My Gov't controls insurance, and all incompetent people are fired.

Logan, can I be your Chief Socialist Actuary?  Smile
But that was when I ruled the world
 
DrDeke
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:20 pm

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 18):
This kind of comment is why far left liberals piss people off.

I'm sure that kind of comment does piss conservatives off. On the other hand, the groups of people referred to in the comment piss liberals off.

If, hypothetically speaking, you're a conservative and I'm a liberal, why should I believe it is worse for me to piss you off than it is for you to piss me off? (And vice-versa...)

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
stlgph
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 18):

This kind of comment is why far left liberals piss people off. You should look at what ANCFlyer said in reply 16.

yes people on the right side tend to get a little uneasy about the things i mentioned.

oh, and there is no ignorance when the truth is involved. but nice try, doll.
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sccutler
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:29 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):
Is it possible to be a governmental conservative, a social liberal, and a believer in alternative forms of government (e.g: replacing monarchy with republic)?

Yep, what you describe sounds almost as if you are... yes, it definitely *is* that you are thinking for yourself.

Beats pigeon-holing, don't it?
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 24):
Yep, what you describe sounds almost as if you are... yes, it definitely *is* that you are thinking for yourself

It's best to think for yourself. Which, I think, makes it seem slightly ridiculous that if you're a feminist organization, you can claim to speak for all women in America, and not only that, but all minorities, too.

When do feminist organizations do that and what is the importance of noting their advocacy? For the reason that they did that just today, with a major press conference at the National Press Club, covered by C-SPAN, opposing the nomination of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. Also, one can see their claims in their websites, which often lump women's rights with minority rights, and are written from an absolutist standpoint.

Liberals (and conservatives) who think for themselves are the kind who avoid the same kinds of claims that activist groups such as the National Organization of Women routinely make. I, for one, trust you agree.

[Edited 2006-01-06 09:39:20]
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jafa39
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):
But does this a liberal make?



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):
Am I a conservative?



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):
a believer in alternative forms of government

Just a crazy mixed-up kid!  Smile

Quoting STLGph (Reply 7):
consumption of imported french vodka."

Reason enough in itself!!

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 10):
I didn't expect my government to look after anything except the economy

If only......

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
wants the status quo

They still going??

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
and I will fire people who suck.

Thats the gays and women out on the streets then!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
An extermist and a liberal are two totally different animals.

Can you have extreme liberals??

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
Also, one can see their claims in their websites

Damn I thought you said "Clams"... got me all excited!!!
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Andreas
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:06 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 7):
consumption of imported french vodka

Now that's horrible, I mean REALLY horrible, no matter if you're a liberal or a conservative or a lesbian jewish dachshund-breeding single mother from East Rutherford...just horrible!!

As a more general point: I always find it pretty amusing when people are desperately trying to find a "group" in life the can "belong to"..they really need to "belong" somewhere.

I never saw a point in trying to be liberal (whatever that means) or a conservative or a whatever. People in general try way too hard to find that group and think about what it means, how to define and shape that group they want to belong to...and they same can be said about their "natural" enemies in life. They need their group-related concept of an enemy...the liberals for the conservatives and vice versa.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to concentrate on certain material problems, discuss those and try to find solutions....and in the process of doing so probably find out (to the horror of those who need their "group in life") that it's mostly quite normal people on the "other side of the table", that really do not deserve to be called the enemy.

btw: No, there is not much of a difference between America and most European countries...probably much clearer right now in the USA because of a strong trend of polarisation in American politics and insoceity in general, but nonetheless not much different to countries such as Germany or England.
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stlgph
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting Andreas (Reply 27):
Now that's horrible, I mean REALLY horrible, no matter if you're a liberal or a conservative or a lesbian jewish dachshund-breeding single mother from East Rutherford...just horrible!!

hey, I don't have a problem with french imported vodka, but Fox news told me otherwise.

Quoting Andreas (Reply 27):
Wouldn't it make much more sense to concentrate on certain material problems, discuss those and try to find solutions....and in the process of doing so probably find out (to the horror of those who need their "group in life") that it's mostly quite normal people on the "other side of the table", that really do not deserve to be called the enemy.

well, isn't this the wish for everybody? it seems one of the few times in history in the country of the United States when the most could agree and get behind something versus the small percentage against it was back in the days of the American Revolution.

back then, people were fighting for a common unity for the benefit of everyone.

today, there are times when its family member vs. family member and the push to pass amendments to the Constitution (a document created to ensure the rights of people) which will take away rights from individuals.
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Andreas
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
hey, I don't have a problem with french imported vodka

Well I do!!! And I don't need Fox to tell me that!  Wink  Silly  Silly  Silly

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
well, isn't this the wish for everybody?

Yes, of course, but in fact many people are using all their intellectual energy and abilities to define groups...the one they belong to, the one that is the enemy. That's ridiculous...in fact it shows significant signs of smallmindedness.

I don't actually think people who have no other problems in life are dumb, but rather lazy! It is so much easier to have a bunch of people around oneself who tell you whatever you do "you did well , Buddy", "would have done the same, Buddy" yadda yadda yadda...To have a bunch of people who tell you what to do in life, who are IN CHARGE, people you can delegate all responsabilites to.

Maybe a very harsh example would be the born-again Christians: They offer the easy life intellectually, excuses for all the bad things you've done in life, solutions for all the problems you've always been thinking about...it's easy to comprehend, easy to follow...and dangerous as hell!!!! It is very close to religious fanatism...and it is definitely the basic problem we are discussing here: Trying desperately to "belong" in order to have guidance in life.

Another not so harsh example is politics: The fact that in America as well as in most European countries the members of the parliament are members of political parties...no matter if they want to be, but usually you don't stand a chance to get into parliament if you're NOT. From then on you have to act as a member of your party, not free in your decisions how to handle certain problems but you're bound to do what your political leaders tell you. Recent history shows clearly that this kind of group discipline doesn't help to find real solutions at all!

I know that the world is as it is...but I wanted to address that freaky little problem anyway...because I always thought it to be strange for people to have that sort of guidance. I myself have always felt extremely uneasy around people who said things like "that's how we do things around here" or "we've always done it that way, who are you to change that".
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QANTASforever
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:58 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 24):
Yep, what you describe sounds almost as if you are... yes, it definitely *is* that you are thinking for yourself.

Beats pigeon-holing, don't it?

Well, gosh - darn it, I think you're right.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
Liberals (and conservatives) who think for themselves are the kind who avoid the same kinds of claims that activist groups such as the National Organization of Women routinely make. I, for one, trust you agree.

Ironically - I run a political lobbying group. lol

Perhaps we should have a lobby group that campaigns on behalf of all independent thinkers?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Andreas
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 30):
Perhaps we should have a lobby group that campaigns on behalf of all independent thinkers

I'd be happy to take the German franchise and work real hard...see my posts above!  Smile
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:57 pm

American liberals need to re-claim the word in a positive context the way blacks did with nigger and gays with queer.
 
stlgph
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 32):
American liberals need to re-claim the word in a positive context the way blacks did with nigger and gays with queer.

and conservatives dont?


problem is...you've got both liberal and conservative on both sides with different degrees. it's like ordering a steak. eight choices how you want the temperature.
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Pyrex
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 1):
I disagree - I think it is an international question - although it does depend on your definition of "liberal".

So true... in the US the word is used to attack people on the left, in Portugal it is used to attack people on the right.
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Andreas
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 34):
So true... in the US the word is used to attack people on the left, in Portugal it is used to attack people on the right.

And in Germany it is used to attack people in the "middle" Big grin Big grin Big grin

Sounds like a perfect job for masochists of all political colours  Silly
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767Lover
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
My position:

1. The same Healthcare for everyone - employers pay for it w/ gov't subsidies;

This terrifies me. First, there are people who can afford to pay their own healthcare (like myself) and so I don't need the gov wasting its resources on me at this time in my life. However, more importantly, I am much happier being in control of MY OWN healthcare and plan. On an employer's plan, you are stuck with whatever group coverage they have selected based on the "average" case. If I am unhappy with my current plan, I can change it because it is an individual plan.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
5. Gov't personnel (i.e., Congress) are on a volunteer basis. No salary, no pension. Social security will be fixed within 6 hours;

This would eliminate the possibility of most Americans having a shot at office. Most people cannot afford to leave their jobs for govt service, and therefore you would definitely have the country in the control of the wealthy class that you despise.



Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
6. There is no Real Estate business. Housing is limited to primary, secondary or business properties. If you don't live there or work there, you cannot own it. Rental properties for students and people transient will be controlled by the gov't. Don't worry, I'll be in charge, and I will fire people who suck. Property prices will go down. No one who does nothing except have money will ever make more money because of their fortune ever again.

You've eliminated the possibility for a very large percentage of people to achieve a higher status of living, who otherwise would never have a shot at it due to lack of education or opportunity.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
7. Insurance is abolished as we know it. My Gov't controls insurance, and all incompetent people are fired. Problems arise, and lawyers are appointed to fix them. Anyone filing a suit that is determined to be false is jailed for life. Insurance should protect us, not rape us, and anyone on a Board of Directors of an Insurance Company who makes money for being a lazy, rich MF, should look very closely in their rearview mirror.

I agree that fraud exists in insurance but having the govt control insurance absolutely TERRIFIES me for too many reasons to state.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Thread starter):
Logan22L's post in the end of the world thread has set me thinking, why, if being an extremist is such a bad thing that its worth spending millions on wars to kill them, is being a Liberal so bad?

I would not say that being a Liberal is bad, but, why are most people afraid to admit that they are a Liberal?  Smile
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 37):
I would not say that being a Liberal is bad, but, why are most people afraid to admit that they are a Liberal?

Hollywood actors might not be. George Clooney just said something to the effect that he's a proud liberal.
What's fair is fair.
 
wingman
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:01 am

I like the rsponse by QFF, some policy positions may make one liberal and others may make one conservative. The one thing I'll say about the US is that in my personal experience, city dwellers tend to be more liberal while those living in suburbs or rural areas tend to be much more conservative. When people actually have to live with those less fortunate they develop a compassion that is largely lacking in those that don't. In the social context I will always define myself as very liberal and take the European model as the ideal (if unaffordable in the long term). Socially, conservatives in this country tend to view the less fortunate differently, broadly categorizing such people as lazy, criminal, useless or illegal. I wonder how Europeans or other non-US forum members would describe the urban vs. rural differences in terms of liberal and conservative tendencies in their own countries.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:45 am

Why is being a college conservative so bad?  Confused

The bashing I got for being pro-life and having a silly sticker (W04) on my car.

Isn't it my right as a tax paying American to pick and chose who I think is best gonna lead the nation?

Man I really hate the politics of my generation...  Sad
 
A332
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 40):
The bashing I got for being pro-life

Right... and probably well deserved because it comes down to the choice of the individual involved and not you... I don't understand why right-wingers feel the need to stick their nose where it doesn't belong.

The majority of you righties think homosexual intercourse is a sin and an abomination... great, think whatever you want... but you don't get the right to dictate what goes on in the bedroom...

Nor do you get the right to dictate what another person can and can't do with their body...

Get it?
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
767Lover
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 11):
6. There is no Real Estate business. Housing is limited to primary, secondary or business properties. If you don't live there or work there, you cannot own it.

I forgot to add to my earlier rebuttal:

Do you have any idea how much $$ the government would lose in property taxes if the government owned most of the real estate?

Lots of public services would go bye-bye.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 42):
Do you have any idea how much $$ the government would lose in property taxes if the government owned most of the real estate?

Prices would go down and the people would own the real estate - for the purposes living and/or working there, not for the purpose of sitting on your ass and making money as a landlord.

So the answer to your question is: Yes. Zero.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 36):
This terrifies me. First, there are people who can afford to pay their own healthcare (like myself) and so I don't need the gov wasting its resources on me at this time in my life. However, more importantly, I am much happier being in control of MY OWN healthcare and plan. On an employer's plan, you are stuck with whatever group coverage they have selected based on the "average" case. If I am unhappy with my current plan, I can change it because it is an individual plan.

It's simple. There are no "Plans." You need medicine, it's yours. You need healthcare, you get the best. It's the same for everyone, and it's top quality.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:04 am

The same thing that is wrong with being a conservative except in a different flavor.

Both sides, both political parties are a sideshow intended to keep you from questioning what your elected officials, and worse - the lifelong civil servants are doing with YOUR money.

Case in point, the present lobbyists-bribing-government officials scandal will somehow be made a partisan issue.

Oh, wait! It already has.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
scamp
Posts: 616
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:10 am

Being a liberal isn't bad at all. Unless, of course, you are rabidly conservative. The bad thing about government being in charge of a lot of things is that they end up fucking up more than fixing. But at the end of the day, I'd rather have a "center-left" than anything to the right.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
dw9115
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:54 pm

RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 22):
I'm sure that kind of comment does piss conservatives off. On the other hand, the groups of people referred to in the comment piss liberals off.

If, hypothetically speaking, you're a conservative and I'm a liberal, why should I believe it is worse for me to piss you off than it is for you to piss me off? (And vice-versa...)

-DrDeke

You do have a good point.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 23):
yes people on the right side tend to get a little uneasy about the things i mentioned.

oh, and there is no ignorance when the truth is involved. but nice try, doll.

How do you know that what you say is the truth? You should try and listen to what people are saying and gather all the facts before forming your opinion.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:37 am

Because a lot of the media and the current administration and Congress have done a masterful job of propaganda and manipulation. Equating liberals with New York, Gay, elite, Un-American etc. Sure, any idealology taken to fundamentalist extremes can be toxic and jaded. This is all almost akin to the Communist witch hunts of the 1950's. Before my time.
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DrDeke
Posts: 805
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 43):
It's simple. There are no "Plans." You need medicine, it's yours. You need healthcare, you get the best. It's the same for everyone, and it's top quality.

I wish that this could be the case, but I do not believe that there are enough resources in the world at the current time to make this happen for everyone. It's a problem of rationing and scarcity.

The problem of scarcity and how to ration scarce resources is essentially the fundamental reason for the existence of the field of economics.

If for a moment we agree that there are not enough resources in the world for everyone in need of health care to receive the absolute best and most state-of-the-art treatment, then it is pretty obvious that there needs to be SOME way to ration the treatment that is available. Rationing can be done with money: Those who have more money get more of the treatment. It can be done by governments: Everyone gets approximately the same access to treatment.

Perhaps there is a better way to ration health care, or perhaps any scarce resource, than the two approaches I mentioned. I have never heard of any better idea than those, but I would be very receptive to hearing about it if someone comes up with one.

Alternatively, with future advances in energy technology, AI, manufacturing, and so on, we might continue to drive the level of scarcity lower and lower, perhaps to the point where it will become a non-issue. If you have watched Star Trek: Next Generation, you have seen one partial model for how this would work out. Do you see anyone on ST:TNG getting kicked out of sickbay or not having an expensive procedure performed due to lack of ability to pay, or lack of resources on the part of the government/Federation?  Smile

Well, now that I've made a Star Trek analogy, this thread and post are probably dead, so I'll go shut up.  bouncy 

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
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RE: Why Is Being A Liberal So Bad?

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 46):
How do you know that what you say is the truth? You should try and listen to what people are saying and gather all the facts before forming your opinion.

well, you're getting all pissy about it now aren't ya?

score another.
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