Ibhayi
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:23 am

The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:14 am

With Eed coming tomorrow for many Muslims I realised the bias and failures of their religion to tolerate others, whom have different sexual choices and choose to believe in different ideas.

As far as my knowledge is correct one can not erect a Church of Schul in Saudi Arabia, mosques are built in the US, Britain and many other countries.

Non Muslims are not allowed into Mecca, however a Muslim is welcome to see the Vatican and welcome in Christian Churches.

A woman traveling to Muslim states most notably Saudi Arabia has to cover her self up, yet in Britain when a school told a girl to remove her head scarf she took them to the courts and the courts ruled in her favour. Now this is where my confusion lies? In a Muslim country we need to abide by their rules although in a Christian country there rules apply again and not that of the relevant country?

Many claim their religion is above the law and your allowed to assault ur wife, in return she can tell her husband he has to pray 5 times a day.

It's great to eat McDonald's, wear Nike shoes but America is the devil?

The ideas of banning the consumption of Coke and other American products at the initial stages of the Iraq war was short lived. Besides the founders of Coke when I last heard where all for bombing Iraq and so was Coke as a company. They started drinking it again shortly after they realised it isn't that bad.

A man may commit adultery a woman is sentenced to death and executed in the following manner. Buried in the ground with only her head above the ground and rocks thrown at her till she is dead. Im sorry I don't see the quality in that.

With the recent actions of a Danish newspaper came one of the best responses from whom I assume to be the Prime Minister. He said we subscribe to freedom of speech and press as a nation and therefore I will take no action. If they don't like it don't live in Denmark, believe they would have little tolerance in Saudi Arabia for cries by Christian and Jews if a similar event happened.

My thoughts.

P.S. A very close friend of mine is a Muesli (as he says) and he doesn't subscribe to such mad ideas.
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
dtwclipper
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:30 am

Man, I think you are just itching for a fight tonight.

I would suggest deletion before it gets out of hand!

True, it's an interesting topic of conversation, but it can not be adressed here in a civilized fashion! We are all too bigoted in one way or another, and this will just turn into a shouting match and flying insults!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
Falcon84
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:48 am

Why delete? I think he makes some terrifically insightful points. Let it ride.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dtwclipper
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Why delete? I think he makes some terrifically insightful points

I agree that he makes some interesting points, but it will get ugly.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
cfalk
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
My thoughts.

I think you make some excellent points. I look forward to some of our muslim members answering.

I just hope you haven't earned yourself a fatwa  Wink
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Newark777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
We are all too bigoted in one way or another

Speak for yourself.

As with many things, it is the extremists that ruin it for the masses. It sickens me when I see couples walking through the street, the man dressed in a polo shirt and khaki shorts, and the women completely covered up; to hear stories of American servicewomen in Saudi Arabia having to cover up to abide to their ridiculous demands; to learn of all the Middle Eastern women who are executed for a relatively trivial offense, while men walk free for the same offense. There is something seriously wrong with these cultures, and there is no solution in sight. And oil is certainly not helping.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
Muesli

What is that?
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
Ibhayi
Topic Author
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 am

Muesli, sorry miss spelled the type of breakfast. Also known as a Muslim.


As with all faiths there is extrematism, however it seems that there are muslim extramatists that others or their actions are more destructive and more hatefull than others. Eg. The suicide bombings and blowing up holiday destinations in the East. Not many Christian suicide bombers lurking around that have grabbed international news headlines.

The extramatism in this case covers an entire country not just a small section of the population.
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
CO7e7
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
P.S. A very close friend of mine is a Muesli (as he says) and he doesn't subscribe to such mad ideas

I know a lot of those, there are a lot of them where i'm from!!
I am Middle Eastern (Catholic) and I gotta tell you... YOU ARE 100% right...

I'm looking forward for this Thread..

Did you also know that a Muslim Male can divorce his wife simply by saying (Inti Tale'e) which means you are divorced; 3 times... while women cannot do that to men unless they have what is known as the (ismat) which is basically the power!
 
oly720man
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
With Eed coming tomorrow for many Muslims I realised the bias and failures of their religion to tolerate others, whom have different sexual choices and choose to believe in different ideas.



The same can probably be said about many other religions and races and tolerance of such things as; gay marriages, mixed marriages, sunday shopping. Remember apartheid? Black and white segregation.


OK. Moslems aren't meant to drink alcohol are they?

My wife used to be a teacher in Ilford, near London, and she was told that the place was to be avoided during Eid because the place would be full of drunk asians "celebrating."

I worked in Malaysia for a while and some of the moslems drank alcohol there.

A friend of my wife's knew someone who worked as a chambermaid in one of the hotels in London and the Saudi Arabian visitors were notorious for going completely off the rails once they'd left the clutches of the Sharia police back home.


Most Moslems I have met have been the nicest, kindest people you could hope to meet and they have been from all over... Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Syria, both men and women. They have generally been students, so perhaps at a better level of education than others who could be more easily led into more extreme behaviours. I have even received Christmas cards from moslem students, something that's probably at best frowned upon by the more staunch adherents of the religion.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
RichardPrice
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:00 am

I dont think Islam is responsable for the majority of the issues in the thread starters post, I think its people thats responsable.

The Christian Bible has its fair share of horrific things, including summary execution for specific crimes, and yet noone takes any notice of them. The same goes for most muslim countries. But then you have the fundamentalist countries, which, because they always make the headlines, are the ones you always think about.

Im not religious so Im fairly neutral in this, but I did some googling for another thread and this url came in handy - I think its wise to post here again:

http://www.muslim-answers.org/Introducing-Islam/miscons.htm
 
CO7e7
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
OK. Moslems aren't meant to drink alcohol are they?

No.. It's (muharram) which means Forbidden!
 
Newark777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 10):
The Christian Bible has its fair share of horrific things, including summary execution for specific crimes, and yet noone takes any notice of them. The same goes for most muslim countries. But then you have the fundamentalist countries, which, because they always make the headlines, are the ones you always think about.

Yes, but how many of these "horrific things" are carried out in the present day? How many people do you see executed or killed in the name of Christianity?

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:53 am

You make some valid some points, ones which i agree with. Some muslims are just not tolerant of people of other faiths and cultures, which is sad. But ofcourse it is a loud minority who make their religion look bad, as RichardPrice said, it is not Islam at fault, it is some of the people who follow the religion. It is these people who interpret parts of Islam to suit their ideas and ideology. Nowhere does it say in Islam that you should beat your wife, nowhere does it say that a muslim should should be intolerant or show disrespect to followers of other faiths. Infact it is the opposite, a decent muslim will at all times show respect to their neighbour, their fellow human being. It is all a matter of how you interpret things, one can interpret quotes from the Quran in a number of different way.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
The ideas of banning the consumption of Coke and other American products at the initial stages of the Iraq war was short lived. Besides the founders of Coke when I last heard where all for bombing Iraq and so was Coke as a company. They started drinking it again shortly after they realised it isn't that bad.

Who is "they"? A small number of narrow-minded individuals don't speak for the rest of Islam, and i certainly have not come across any muslim who's stopped drinking coke. That's not to say some muslims have not boycotted American products after the invasion of Iraq, they have. These things happen which are highlighted in the media, and unfortunately some people fall into the trap of believing muslims are all hypocrites who see America as evil but continue to drink coke, wear Nikes and eat big macs. And besides, it's been pointed out many times, muslims are deeply suspicious of American policies and motives, but they love the country and what it stands for.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
A woman traveling to Muslim states most notably Saudi Arabia has to cover her self up, yet in Britain when a school told a girl to remove her head scarf she took them to the courts and the courts ruled in her favour. Now this is where my confusion lies? In a Muslim country we need to abide by their rules although in a Christian country there rules apply again and not that of the relevant country?

Absolutely agree, when in Rome, do as the Romans do, which leads me to the point about the difference in freedom, justice and equality between Saudi Arabia and Britain (example). The Saudi's live in a strict and hardline environment, bordering on extremism, not much different from the Taliban. Saudi Arabia is a poor example of basing your views on Islam and muslims, they do no favours to the reputation to other muslim states. Look at Malaysia, Tunisia, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Lebanon and Oman, they are far more free, open minded and forward thinking while the Saudi's live in the dark ages.

But yeah, i can relate to your thoughts on some of your points made.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Ibhayi
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:01 am

I have chatted to many "liberal" muslims, who love their Nike, McDonalds and they informed me it was written that a man can hit his wife, I based it on that.
I am infact seeing her tomorrow and her husband, whom I really like and I will seek clarity from them on the issue. Incidentally they were the one snot eating McDonalds not drinking Coke.

I went with them to mosque once and found it quite interesting. It was just after the invasion of Iraq and there was a large number of muslims there boycotting American products, as with the never ending protestors outside the US embassy.
fat girls give the best head because they're hungry
 
jaysit
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:14 am

There are numerous Muslim nations in which other houses of worship exist and are tolerated. These include Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey. The list goes on.

Focusing on a nut house like Saudi Arabia (a nation that we have essentially helped keep intact) doesn't help your argument. Islamic fundamentalism and Saudi Arabia are intrinsically linked, and do the religion a great disservice.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
FOMEA
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:56 am

Typical Islamophobia!

let me get this straight:
Of all Muslim countries of the world, you pick no other than Saudi Arabia, you erect it as a role model of what & Islam is!
Why don't Lebanese, Bosnian, Emaratis or even Turkish Muslims apply such practices in your opinion!

Should I consider Christians blood suckers, because of the German Nazi era!
Or in relation to the subject, did the church practices during the medieval times meant that Christianity as a whole was responsible for these actions!!!

Saudi Arabia is ruled by the Saudi family, which is allied with the Wahabi wing of Islam!
Wahabism is the most extreme branch of Salafi Sunni Islam.
Thanks to continuous American support, the suadi family had ruled the kingdom with an Iron fist, shutting up any voice for change or questioning of the practices of the wahabists in fear of their rule!!!

Suadi Arabia is indeed a medieval country, even by Muslim standards!!!
But the blame should be to the exception, please do not generalize on all of Islaml!
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
jaysit
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:02 am

Well said, FOMEA.

In the US (I certainly can't speak for other places), most Americans can barely get themselves to learn about their own country, let alone a foreign civilization. To the average Texan, New York is an evil, sinful place. How then can you expect such a person to understand the cultural complexities of Lahore, Beirut or Istanbul?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 16):
Of all Muslim countries of the world, you pick no other than Saudi Arabia, you erect it as a role model of what & Islam is!

So I went out and bought a copy of the Quran - in English.

The introduction said that many of the words they found it necessary to use in the translation were not exact equivalents. Okay fair enough. That happens. It went on to say that to understand the meaning you would not only have to read it in Arabic, but would have to have grown up in the Arabian Peninsula and the culture there to get the true meaning.

Now if that introduction by a Muslim scholar is correct then perhaps the best possible understanding of the culture of Islam is to be gained by study of how those people behave within their own country.

What do you think?
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FOMEA
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
So I went out and bought a copy of the Quran - in English.

The introduction said that many of the words they found it necessary to use in the translation were not exact equivalents. Okay fair enough. That happens. It went on to say that to understand the meaning you would not only have to read it in Arabic, but would have to have grown up in the Arabian Peninsula and the culture there to get the true meaning.

Now if that introduction by a Muslim scholar is correct then perhaps the best possible understanding of the culture of Islam is to be gained by study of how those people behave within their own country.

pWhat do you think?

I am not sure I understand your question, could you elaborate!
Also, What do you mean by the culture of Islam!




Anyway,
The Quran, according to Muslims, is not only a holy text!
All prophets of other religions sent by God, did miracles that fascinated people of their times!

Christianity claims that Jesus treated the blind, woke the dead, as apparently people at his time had many Illnesses!

Judaism claim that Moses did magic, by throwing his stick into a snake...etc, As the people of Egypt were fascinated with magic!

At Mohamad's time the Arabs of the dessert were fascinated with poetry, so Mohamad's miracle was the Quran. The Quran's poetry, structure, rythem & Composition impressed the Arabs to a degree that Mohamad's foes would block their ears in order not to be convinced!

So, due to the complication of the Quranic structure, the Translation is often weak(as any translation of a piece of literature is)!

Please also understand that the Quran contains many Historic tales, so quoting a paragraph without connecting it to the context of its surrounding is a mistake, and its unfortunately being abused by anti-Muslims!
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
blrsea
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 19):
Please also understand that the Quran contains many Historic tales, so quoting a paragraph without connecting it to the context of its surrounding is a mistake, and its unfortunately being abused by anti-Muslims!

It is not being abused by anti-muslims, but by muslims themselves. Muslims believe that everything that needs to be said is in Qoran, and that scholars will interpret it with the times so other muslims will follow them. In fact, one of the pakistani member mentioned the same thing in one of the threads earlier. So what you have is a group of scholars interpreting Quran as they see fit as per current times. However the terrorists/jihadis too interpret the quran their way and hence feel justified in doing what they do. The same thing applies for S Arabia and many other islamic actions like stoning etc which many find repulsive now.

The main weakness of Islam as compared to other relegions is their following the koran to the T going with the interpretations of their favourite scholar. But other relegions like christianity, Jews and hindus don't literally base their lives on their relegious books. This weakness is what is exploited by various islamic leaders and jihadis for their own ends and hence the situation as it exists now.

BTW, of the 5 pillars of islam that every muslim has to follow to be a good muslim, there is no mention of not lying, not killing, not comitting adultery, being honest etc which many consider something basic to be a good human being. Why is none of these a pillar of islam? One can be a good muslim by praying 5 times a day, doing haj, giving charity, fasting and belief in allah only.
 
FOMEA
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:40 pm

Blrsea,
You said it yourself, its the interpretation of some Scholars (a small minority) that is abusing the Quran!!
Trust me, if a group of extremists wanted to abuse a certain text for meanings that satisfies & Justifies their goals, they will do it!

For, example, Pat Robinson always quotes the Bible for his satisfying, and if it wasn't for the enlightenment of other Christian Scholars & their followers , One Billion people will march to the valley of Kadesh for judgment day, LOL!!!(Note that the 200 year crusade war was sparked by similar reasons, interpreted from the Bible)

About the 5 pillars, well the name says it they are pillars!
Stealing, Killing, hurting Animals & even Over-Eating are explained in special verses, since they are Sub categories, in comparison to "believing in God' & "praying"

[Edited 2006-01-11 05:41:19]
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
PIA777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
It's great to eat McDonald's, wear Nike shoes but America is the devil?

These are not Islamic Beliefs. We have McDonalds in Pakistan and all
the Rich kids wear Nikes. These are the beliefs of Muslims who are
down on their luck and need some one to blame but them selves.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
P.S. A very close friend of mine is a Muesli (as he says) and he doesn't subscribe to such mad ideas.

95% of "Mueslis" don't.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
PIA777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
There are numerous Muslim nations in which other houses of worship exist and are tolerated. These include Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey. The list goes on.

Exactly. I was watching PTV (Pakistan TV on Dishnetwork) during
the Christmas holiday and they have numerous shows on Christmas.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
mandala499
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:40 pm

This topic shouldn't really be titled "the bias and failures of Islam"... but "Do these intolerant people realise they're just shooting themselves in the foot?"

Which goes to both Muslims and non-Muslim extremists...
Islam is about 500yrs younger than Christianity. 500yrs ago Christianity went through a dark era... Both have had its share of idiots trying to run the show.

You're now not allowed to build churches in Saudi Arabia, that's because the state of Saudi Arabia has a state religion... Islam. This is very convenient because they can use either politics or religion to suppress dissent.. through one avenue or another or both. In the 1500s, would you dare to build a mosque Madrid or Rome? You'll be lucky if you weren't burnt at the stake! Even scientists came under inquisition...

Don't like what Saudi Arabia's doing? Simple... don't do business there, don't go there... don't tell your friends to go there. Save yourself aggravation. They are a sovereign state with their right to rule as they please (rightly or wrongly).

Indonesia is the world's most populous Islamic "state"... We have laws that prevent women from being forced to wear the veil, and also to prevent women from being forced NOT to wear the veil. We have Islamic societies donating for churches and Christian societies donating for Mosques. Here, religion is not above the law, it is equal at its highest. The state and the religious scholars (except for the few mad radicals) believe that being a responsible national citizen and a responsible citizen of God means everyone has to balance between their worldly lives and the hereafter.

Beware of those who preach wrong things... I can't remember which part, but...

"Beware yee My followers of those who claim to preach My words but are themselves unbelievers."

Even in the Qur'an... God has warned us beforehand that some will try and lead us the wrong way by abusing His name...

Mandala499

[Edited 2006-01-11 15:48:42]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
cfalk
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 24):
Don't like what Saudi Arabia's doing? Simple... don't do business there, don't go there... don't tell your friends to go there. Save yourself aggravation.

And don't forget to sell your gas guzzler and get a car that gets at least 30 or 40 MPG, and next time you buy or build a house, make sure it has a heating system that does not use heating oil.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jwenting
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
I agree that he makes some interesting points, but it will get ugly.

in which case the ugly responses should get removed, not the well thought out original post.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
The same can probably be said about many other religions and races and tolerance of such things as; gay marriages, mixed marriages, sunday shopping. Remember apartheid? Black and white segregation.

None of those excesses are accepted and tollerated, Islam's excesses are.
When Muslims force their women into factual (if not actual) slavery everyone says that such is their culture and we should not think poorly of them because of that.
When Muslims burn churches we don't take action against them but instead use our police forces to guard mosques against possible retaliation.
When Muslims threaten to kill people speaking up against their excesses we arrest those people for inciting hatred, not the Muslims for issueing death threats.
When Muslims threaten violence against a movie theater for showing a movie critical of Islamic violence the theater drops the movie instead of pressing charges against the agressors.
The list goes on and on.
I wish I were flying
 
mandala499
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:31 am

When Muslims force their women into factual (if not actual) slavery everyone says that such is their culture and we should not think poorly of them because of that. <--- Cultural. Our laws here are secular, but Islamic family and domestic laws exist in Indonesia, and such acts are forbidden under our own Islamic laws. Blame the culture, not the religion.

When Muslims burn churches we don't take action against them but instead use our police forces to guard mosques against possible retaliation.

Here when that happens, the Christian youths go around and burn mosques back and the police have a hard time  Sad Cultural perhaps?

When Muslims threaten violence against a movie theater for showing a movie critical of Islamic violence the theater drops the movie instead of pressing charges against the agressors.

Errr... we did that here when a bunch of Muslim youths decided to ransack a cafe zone in Jakarta and there was public outrage on their actions even by the Muslim leaders... perpetrators jailed.

But, we still fail to jail corruptors ! *Oh well, can't win them all!*

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
one can not erect a Church of Schul in Saudi Arabia, mosques are built in the US, Britain and many other countries.

Churches are "in action" and new ones are built in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
A woman traveling to Muslim states most notably Saudi Arabia has to cover her self up

Western women can travel to all Arab countries (except Saudi Arabia), to Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia WITHOUT having to cover themselves up, so that your comparison does NOT apply
 
slider
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
To the average Texan, New York is an evil, sinful place.

You are so far outside the realm of reality, please wake me up when you come back to earth.
 
Newark777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 27):
Cultural. Our laws here are secular, but Islamic family and domestic laws exist in Indonesia, and such acts are forbidden under our own Islamic laws. Blame the culture, not the religion.

Doesn't make these people any less dangerous.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 27):

Here when that happens, the Christian youths go around and burn mosques back and the police have a hard time Sad Cultural perhaps?

No, not culture, they usually are not saying they have to destroy mosques due to Christianity. They are just a bunch of stupid teenagers. The Muslims doing these acts think they are doing it for a religious cause. Scary.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
some of the moslems drank alcohol there

people in need of MEDICINE which is NOT prohibited --- but they for sure do NOT consult the nearest Imam as this theory of course is NOT watertight, but Wine is good for the nerves, Calvados and Whiskey and Williams and Arak help the stomach, etc.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
that does not use heating oil

Saudi Arabia is NOT the only oil-producer in the world, one of the largest in fact is the USA which might potentially even be an exporter
 
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yowza
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:24 am

I had quoted about 12 things the starter of this thread had written to pick apart. These ranged from things such as not understanding the seperation of church and state to typing your instead of you're. I then decide to check out his profile.

16-20 years old with a signature reading "fat girls give the best head because they're hungry" - I think that basically removes any value from anything this moron has to say. I'm not Muslim but I am offended by this thread because of it's sheer stupidity.

As somebody who has lived in 12 countries (including 3 muslim countries) I can say that the idiot who started this thread has probably never ventured outside Benoni for a great period of his life.

YOWza
 
Newark777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 32):
I'm not Muslim but I am offended by this thread because of it's sheer stupidity.

Oh oh, he's offended, we all have to stop.  biggrin 

Go smoke some weed and mellow out man.

Harry
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yowza
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 33):

Go smoke some weed and mellow out man.

Way ahead of you, already had a toke this morning. Nice to see you sticking up for your 16-20 year old friend, really cute if a little bigoted.

YOWza
 
Newark777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 34):

Way ahead of you, already had a toke this morning. Nice to see you sticking up for your 16-20 year old friend, really cute if a little bigoted.

You're only "21-25" yourself, nice to see you act all sophisticated.  rotfl 

But I'm sorry, in those few extra years I'm sure you've gained a whole new persepctive on things, and we just have no idea what we're talking about.  rotfl 

Harry
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yowza
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 35):
You're only "21-25" yourself, nice to see you act all sophisticated. rotfl

But I'm sorry, in those few extra years I'm sure you've gained a whole new persepctive on things, and we just have no idea what we're talking about. rotfl

Actually I don't look down on people younger than me. I took my A-levels in the UK when I was 16 (most take them at around 18) so I know being young doesn't make you stupid but being young and making juvenile statement does. As for your intellect well - Lehigh University?

YOWza
 
Kay
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:26 am

To Jaysit, FOMEA, Arsenal:

A slight note regarding the repeated mentionning of Beirut. You should all go there, the nightclubs are wilder than many Greek and Spanish Islands I've been to, and all year round. The Lebanese nation was founded on a basis of a 50% Christian and 50% Muslim community. It is not a Muslim nation, therefore it shouldn't be used to defend Islam, not by a long shot. All the attractions and half of the Lebanese culture is drawn straight from the wetsern world. (thus a turbulent country it is, given the region where it lays.)


Kay

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 13):
Look at Malaysia, Tunisia, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Lebanon and Oman, they are far more free, open minded and forward thinking while the Saudi's live in the dark ages.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
There are numerous Muslim nations in which other houses of worship exist and are tolerated. These include Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey. The list goes on.



Quoting FOMEA (Reply 16):
Why don't Lebanese, Bosnian, Emaratis or even Turkish Muslims apply such practices in your opinion!



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
How then can you expect such a person to understand the cultural complexities of Lahore, Beirut or Istanbul?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
And oil is certainly not helping.

The biggest reason I'm hopeful that alternative fuels will be developed and become plentiful is that I hope to live to see what happens when the one and only only thing of value that nations in the Middle East have to offer becomes completely worthless.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 5):
American servicewomen in Saudi Arabia having to cover up to abide to their ridiculous demands;

 redflag 
Would you expect a visitor to the US to obey US laws? Why does it pain you so that visitors to Saudi Arabia are expected to do the same? Respect for the laws and cultures of others is normally considered a mark of a civilised nation.

Although Western women do have to ware abayas and hijabs in Saudi Arabia, most chose not to cover their faces.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
So I went out and bought a copy of the Quran - in English.

This is a big issue in the Middle East. It's only a "real" Quran if it's written in Arabic (as you said). Many liberal scholars think this only serves to restrict access to the Quran and to make Islam less approachable to many potential followers. The more conservative ones cite the "dilution" of the "message of Islam" as a reason (excuse?) for insisting on Arabic only. The claim is that many of the subtle nuances of the Arabic language do not translate easily to other languages.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 30):
doing it for a religious cause. Scary

Messrs Karadzic and Mladic in the "Srebrenica-years" repeatedly, in English in front of Western TV correspondents, claimed to DEFEND CHRISTIANITY. People like those two and Usama BinLaden and Dr Zawahiri are proof that such "defenders of faith" are exceedingly dangerous people

Quoting Kay (Reply 37):
The Lebanese nation was founded on a basis of a 50% Christian and 50% Muslim community. It is not a Muslim nation, therefore it shouldn't be used to defend Islam, not by a long shot. All the attractions and half of the Lebanese culture is drawn straight from the wetsern world.

Lebanon is not to "be used" to defend either Islam or Christianity, BUT what the Lebanese have shown since 1990 up to now is how practiced tolerance can be handled and can be done and can look like. Lebanon now has a Muslim majority and the compromise still works.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
It's only a "real" Quran if it's written in Arabic (as you said). Many liberal scholars think this only serves to restrict access to the Quran and to make Islam less approachable to many potential followers. The more conservative ones cite the "dilution" of the "message of Islam" as a reason (excuse?) for insisting on Arabic only. The claim is that many of the subtle nuances of the Arabic language do not translate easily to other languages.

similar, maybe a bit worse, than Christianity half a millenia ago when conservative clerics refused to have the Bible in any other European language than Greek and Latin. It is interesting to see that the Ahmadiyya sect encourages translations of the Koran, and are proud to have Koran copies in a considerable number of different languages ready .
 
BA
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 37):
A slight note regarding the repeated mentionning of Beirut. You should all go there, the nightclubs are wilder than many Greek and Spanish Islands I've been to, and all year round. The Lebanese nation was founded on a basis of a 50% Christian and 50% Muslim community. It is not a Muslim nation, therefore it shouldn't be used to defend Islam, not by a long shot. All the attractions and half of the Lebanese culture is drawn straight from the wetsern world. (thus a turbulent country it is, given the region where it lays.)

For the most part, I agree with you, but there are a few points I disagree with.

While it is true that Lebanon was formed on the basis of a 50% Christian and 50% Muslim community, the fact is this shows there are many Muslims in Lebanon and since we are talking about the tolerance among free and openminded Muslims, Lebanon is a great example since it is openminded, tolerant, free, and is a great example of multiple religions getting along with each other.

Let's also not forget that Lebanon is even MORE complex than simply having many Muslims and Christians, but there are 17 official different religious sects, 12 Christian, 5 Muslim, and and a tiny percentage of other minorities such as Jews and Bahais.

Also I disagree with your assertion that Lebanon is culturally western, it is a combination of Eastern and Western cultures mixed together which is what makes it so unique.

This is also true for the rest of the Levant (Syria, Palestine, and Jordan) to an extent, though obviously not as much as Lebanon.

Some argue that Turkey, which is 99% Muslim is western culturally, but again, I digress, it's a mix between the two much like Lebanon is.

Even Greece, which you mentioned earlier, which is 98% Christian, is actually the way I see it, more Eastern culturally than Western.

To describe Lebanon best, it is Mediterranean culturally. It has a lot in common with countries like Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Malta, Southern Italy, Southern France (Mediterranean countries) and at the same time the influence left by the days of the Ummayads, the Persians, Babylonians, etc. is very apparant. Overall, I would describe Lebanon as Middle Eastern culturally, with very strong influences from the West, stronger than any other Middle Eastern country. The French colonization of the 20th century also placed a very big mark on the country. This is apparant by the architecture in many early 20th century buildings in Beirut.

Lebanon's most western elements are the culture that is brought by the Maronite Christian community since Maronite Christianity is a form of Catholicism plus the French influence following the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

In one word, Lebanon is unique.

Malaysia which was mentioned a number of times is only 60% Muslim, but it is still worth mentioning.

[Edited 2006-01-11 19:34:49]
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 37):
A slight note regarding the repeated mentionning of Beirut. You should all go there

Where did you think i was from?

Quoting Kay (Reply 37):
The Lebanese nation was founded on a basis of a 50% Christian and 50% Muslim community. It is not a Muslim nation, therefore it shouldn't be used to defend Islam, not by a long shot. All the attractions and half of the Lebanese culture is drawn straight from the wetsern world. (thus a turbulent country it is, given the region where it lays.)

I hope that wasnt Directed to me....
Take a look at this thread..Read carefuly Reply 17 RE: Sinai Peninsula: Asia Or Africa? (by FOMEA Oct 25 2005 in Non Aviation)6/



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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 42):
Where did you think i was from?

Where do you think I was from? Big grin

Greetings to all!  Smile

Kay
 
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 42):
Where did you think i was from?



Quoting Kay (Reply 43):
Where do you think I was from?

Was???? Where are you two from now? Burkina Faso? Big grin

I mean I know you both immigrated, so have I, but that doesn't change where I'm originally from.  Smile
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
qr332
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:04 am

Holy crap... this is going to be ugly.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
As far as my knowledge is correct one can not erect a Church of Schul in Saudi Arabia, mosques are built in the US, Britain and many other countries.

If your talking about Islam, why are you talking about Saudi Arabia, a small part of the Muslim world? It is the only Muslim state apart from Iran which acts in this way; Qatar, a country which has a large majority of Muslims, has around 4 or 5 different churches, Jordan has a large Christian minority protected under Muslim law, and almost all Muslim countries are tolerant of other religions - it is only Saudi Arabia that is extreme to this extent.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
Non Muslims are not allowed into Mecca, however a Muslim is welcome to see the Vatican and welcome in Christian Churches.

Stop us from going to the Vatican. See if it makes a difference in our life. It is up to the Vatican if it wants to allow non-Christians in, just as it is up to the government of the KSA whether it allows non-Muslims in to Mecca.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
A woman traveling to Muslim states most notably Saudi Arabia has to cover her self up, yet in Britain when a school told a girl to remove her head scarf she took them to the courts and the courts ruled in her favour. Now this is where my confusion lies? In a Muslim country we need to abide by their rules although in a Christian country there rules apply again and not that of the relevant country?

Again, only Saudi Arabia - Islam arguably doesn't even require Muslim women to wear the hijab, yet the Saudis feel the need to make everyone wear it - it is something which is only in the KSA; go to Qatar, the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, any country you want, and you will find people dressing normally. Also, Saudi Arabia is allowed to put whatever laws they want in their own country; if you don't like it, don't go!

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
Many claim their religion is above the law and your allowed to assault ur wife, in return she can tell her husband he has to pray 5 times a day.

In what world? Islam talks about equality and treating your wife fairly - domestic abuse occurs all over the world. South Africa is a perfect example of problems with woman abuse, yet they are not Muslim. Hmmmmm...

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
The ideas of banning the consumption of Coke and other American products at the initial stages of the Iraq war was short lived. Besides the founders of Coke when I last heard where all for bombing Iraq and so was Coke as a company. They started drinking it again shortly after they realised it isn't that bad.

A) This is something to do with Arabs, not Islam - it is political, not religious.
B) It was something people wanted to do, and not based on anything religious.
C) People are allowed to boycott whatever they want - its a free world.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
A man may commit adultery a woman is sentenced to death and executed in the following manner. Buried in the ground with only her head above the ground and rocks thrown at her till she is dead. Im sorry I don't see the quality in that.

Under Sharia law, both the man and the woman have equal ruling in zina (adultry) cases. Lashes the first time, and stoning the second, or if the person is married. This can only happen if there are at least 3 witnesses who can honestly testify, and it is not practiced in anywhere other than Saudi Arabia.

Quoting Ibhayi (Thread starter):
With the recent actions of a Danish newspaper came one of the best responses from whom I assume to be the Prime Minister. He said we subscribe to freedom of speech and press as a nation and therefore I will take no action. If they don't like it don't live in Denmark, believe they would have little tolerance in Saudi Arabia for cries by Christian and Jews if a similar event happened.

Denmark is free, Saudi isn't. Don't like it? Don't go and live there! Simple. Nothing to do with Islam, yet again.

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 7):
As with all faiths there is extrematism, however it seems that there are muslim extramatists that others or their actions are more destructive and more hatefull than others. Eg. The suicide bombings and blowing up holiday destinations in the East. Not many Christian suicide bombers lurking around that have grabbed international news headlines.

The extramatism in this case covers an entire country not just a small section of the population.

Ummm, there are one billion Muslims, and they don't all live in the same countries. Plus, there are many different branches of Islam, and people think differently in Islam. It is a small minority who are extremist, despite popular belief which is completley ignorant about Islam and what it is like.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 8):
I know a lot of those, there are a lot of them where i'm from!!
I am Middle Eastern (Catholic) and I gotta tell you... YOU ARE 100% right...

Really? Where from? And please, give us examples of why he is 100% right.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 8):
Did you also know that a Muslim Male can divorce his wife simply by saying (Inti Tale'e) which means you are divorced; 3 times... while women cannot do that to men unless they have what is known as the (ismat) which is basically the power!

Again, rarley practiced. And your knowledge of Arabic shows that you obviously haven't lived in the Middle East for a long time, because what you said means you are a divorced.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
OK. Moslems aren't meant to drink alcohol are they?

My wife used to be a teacher in Ilford, near London, and she was told that the place was to be avoided during Eid because the place would be full of drunk asians "celebrating."

Catholics aren't meant to wear condoms, do they all not wear condoms? For God's sake, this is something personal, and nothing related to problems with religions! There are countless non-religious Western people.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
Most Moslems I have met have been the nicest, kindest people you could hope to meet and they have been from all over... Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Syria, both men and women. They have generally been students, so perhaps at a better level of education than others who could be more easily led into more extreme behaviours. I have even received Christmas cards from moslem students, something that's probably at best frowned upon by the more staunch adherents of the religion.

I send Christmas candy canes to all my Christian friends, and I doubt I will go to hell for it. Nothing in Islam says you can't be nice to people of other religions, it actually says the opposite - you should be tolerant of other religions.

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 14):
I have chatted to many "liberal" muslims, who love their Nike, McDonalds and they informed me it was written that a man can hit his wife, I based it on that.

They obviously have very good knowledge of their religion... your friends seem to be completley non-religious and not know very much. "I heard it from X" is not something you base your arguments on.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
FOMEA
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 43):
Where do you think I was from?

I know you are 1/2 Lebanese and 1/2 ?????.  Wink

Either way Ahlan..


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F-OMEA.
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Newark777
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36):
As for your intellect well - Lehigh University?

Yes, only the 32nd ranked university in the United States, oh Mr. Mensa child prodigy.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):

Would you expect a visitor to the US to obey US laws? Why does it pain you so that visitors to Saudi Arabia are expected to do the same? Respect for the laws and cultures of others is normally considered a mark of a civilised nation.

Although Western women do have to ware abayas and hijabs in Saudi Arabia, most chose not to cover their faces.

Do not say anything about civilized nations when speaking of Saudi Arabia. And, no, I will never respect anyone or and entity that looks down on women the way they do. Making them cover up is just the tip of the iceberg.

Harry
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 47):
Making them cover up is just the tip of the iceberg.

Only two countries in the world require this, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

And in the case of Saudi Arabia, it's not really the House of Saud ruling family that enforces it, it's the mutawa, the religious police which is a cult that backs and support the ruling House of Saud.

The House of Saud would be nothing without them and the House of Saud tries to do as much reform as possible without alienating its supporters, that's why reform is slow in Saudi Arabia, but it is coming.

I'm not defending the House of Saud though, they are very corrupt, they're a ruling class of elitists that care about nothing but to fill their pockets and this is not permitted in Islam.

There is a Saudi organization based in London who is calling for the fall of the Saudi regime. They were interviewed by BBC and CNN in programs about Saudi Arabia and this outraged the Saudi Royal Family.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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RE: The Bias And Failures Of Islam

Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting BA (Reply 41):
In one word, Lebanon is unique.

It is, as far as diversity is concerned


Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
Really? Where from? And please, give us examples of why he is 100% right.

PALESTINE. I was born there, and i lived there for 23 years.
Re-read it and if you don't understand it, i'll translate it to ARABIC for you.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 45):
Again, rarley practiced. And your knowledge of Arabic shows that you obviously haven't lived in the Middle East for a long time, because what you said means you are a divorced.

BullShit.. i've seen it A LOT here in Palestine.. especially in the West Bank..

and YES SIR, i was born in the middle east as i mentioned above and i lived there for 23 years till i came to the US for education. So please don't make ignorent assumptions like the above mentioned.

Wal Salam 3alaykom!

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