MaverickM11
Topic Author
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Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:11 am

Shock and dismay, another year, another group of people killed in a stampede at Hajj activity. It's sad but what's even more sad is that this happens every bloody year and I can pretty much count on it happening the next year.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/12/hajj.stampede/index.html
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LHMark
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:23 am

What, did someone bring a soccer ball to the Hajj?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:23 am

Maybe they should have an annual Hajj marathon so the pilgrims can get the running thing out of their system in a controlled manner.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
oly720man
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:32 am

Sadly it's what happens when you put millions of people in the same place who have to do something in a short time period. Additionally, many of the people will be making their first and only visit to Mecca and possibly their only trip outside their country, if not village, and may not speak the language of other visitors. It's a recipe for disaster.

The hajj has been reported a bit on the radio over here. There are many complaints about lack of places to stay with poorer people sleeping rough on the streets or in parks. It's all well and good expecting someone to visit Mecca at least once in a lifetime, but if there are too many people.....
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:35 am

Looks as if, in spite of some facilities improved, some bottlenecks still are around, which hopefully will get solved as well.
 
FOMEA
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
Shock and dismay, another year, another group of people killed in a stampede at Hajj activity.

Sad indeed..
The number of people allowed to make hadj sould be reduced, and those who already went there should not be allowed a second time and rami al jamarat should be stritly organized by small groups even if each group of people should have a specific time fixed in advance to do this activity.
And this year my mother is over there.
I got tell you..i have never in my life been so worried.
I finally just got off the phone with her..after 4 Hours of trying to reach her and 4 hours of awful feeling.
I am just in relief now .

Yet, my thought are with all the families and victims.


Regards
F-OMEA.
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 5):
Sad indeed..
The number of people allowed to make hadj sould be reduced, and those who already went there should not be allowed a second time and rami al jamarat should be stritly organized by small groups even if each group of people should have a specific time fixed in advance to do this activity.
And this year my mother is over there.
I got tell you..i have never in my life been so worried.
I finally just got off the phone with her..after 4 Hours of trying to reach her and 4 hours of awful feeling.
I am just in relief now .

Yet, my thought are with all the families and victims.

Agree with there FOMEA, the Saudi authorities are building a new 4 storey bridge to facility the people and decrease the amount of incidents taking place each year. Finally Mubrook on your mother becoming a Hajji, she is now one of the lucky few.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
What, did someone bring a soccer ball to the Hajj?

thanks for your stupid, asinine comment... butthead 

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 3):
outside their country, if not village, and may not speak the language of other visitors. It's a recipe for disaster.

The hajj has been reported a bit on the radio over here. There are many complaints about lack of places to stay with poorer people sleeping rough on the streets or in parks. It's all well and good expecting someone to visit Mecca at least once in a lifetime, but if there are too many people.....

they have been makign improvements over the past years....lots of work is still needed though....but everytime a tragedy like this happens, the government at least takest the time/money/resources to fix that particular problem....

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 5):
I got tell you..i have never in my life been so worried.
I finally just got off the phone with her..after 4 Hours of trying to reach her and 4 hours of awful feeling.
I am just in relief now .

FOMEA...when my parents went, if you can recall the fire disaster in 1997 which killed many, my mom was THE LAST person to get out of the burning tent as it collapsed.....in fact..she almost got burned herself......it was a bit scary, as I wasn't able to get a hold of them for quite some time...so I know how you feel!

Mubarak on u're mom's hajj... Smile  Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
FOMEA
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
they have been makign improvements over the past years....lots of work is still needed though....but everytime a tragedy like this happens, the government at least takest the time/money/resources to fix that particular problem....

True

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
when my parents went, if you can recall the fire disaster in 1997 which killed many, my mom was THE LAST person to get out of the burning tent as it collapsed.....in fact..she almost got burned herself......it was a bit scary, as I wasn't able to get a hold of them for quite some time...

I can only imagine what it felt like....
Trust me.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
Mubarak on u're mom's hajj...



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 6):
Finally Mubrook on your mother becoming a Hajji, she is now one of the lucky few.

Thank you Gentlemen ..she will be home Monday.

Regards
F-OMEA.
On the internet you can be anything you want..its strange so many choose to be Stupid.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 5):
number of people allowed to make hadj sould be reduced

they already HAVE reduced the total number. BUT they should divide the place into SECTORS, and only allow an acceptable number into each sector. Would admittedly involve quite some planning, construction and personnel, but would bring the matter under control. The various sectors of course have to be sealed off quite seriously from each other.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting FOMEA (Reply 5):
all the families and victims.

exactly ! not least to think of families who still do NOT know whether their relative is well or dead or injured --- perfect horror
 
fspilot747
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
What, did someone bring a soccer ball to the Hajj?

thanks for your stupid, asinine comment... butthead

I thought it was funny. And very appropriate. That stuff doesn't need to happen, but all of these people act like heards of buffalo running from a lion. I'm almost certain that that's not what the hajj is supposed to represent. It happens every year,and you can't just blame it on the accomidations. You have to blame it on people acting less civil than cavemen. I have a muslim friend who attended hajj, and they call it a stampede. Said a surefire way to get killed is to drop something and try to pick it up, or try to help someone being stampeded.

Too many people going, they should probably have multiple hajj times throughout the period to get things done safely.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:40 am

From a news article I read on these far too often tragedies, it was triggered by luggage falling off of a bus, causing a large moving group of people to cause a domino affect of people tripping and falling. It occured at a major choke point to the site of the sacred rock. Part of the problem with the Hajj custom and causing these large numbers of mass deaths, is that some of the most orthodox branchs of Islam believe that one is only supposed to do the ritual of the walk and throwing of pebbles at the rock at or around early evening or afternoon prayer times. As so many people want to conform to that interpatation of the ritual, it often causes huge crushes of people. Some moderate Islamics have chosen to do their ritual in the morning or other 'off peak' times, and not join the crush at the preferred time of the ritual.
I am quite sure that this must be a tremendous challange to the Saudi Arabian Government, their people, military and police to keep order for the good of all there. Let us all hope that there are no more people found dead or that situations like this never happen again.
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 12):
no more people found dead or that situations like this never happen again.

I can all but guarantee you it will happen again next year.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
rlwynn
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:26 am

I was reading that is an honor to get killed there. And you straight to heaven.
I can drive faster than you
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 14):
I was reading that is an honor to get killed there. And you straight to heaven.

I was curious about this; I was wondering whether it might be a reason that there are not more actions taken to prevent this sort of thing. Can any muslims comment, please? Having said that, i do not personally know what more can be done.

JL
Next flight.... who knows.
 
jaysit
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:26 am

Someone really ought to ban the Mecca Walmart from having an Xbox sale during the Hajj.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:29 am

Someone drop a fiver?
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jutes85
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
Someone really ought to ban the Mecca Walmart from having an Xbox sale during the Hajj.

 rotfl 
nothing
 
CO7e7
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:57 am

Very Sad !! RIP for all the dead.
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:18 am

What if terrorists get in there? What if a suicide bomber attacks or an airliner is crashed into the site or there's a dirty bomb is set off?  eyebrow 
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
I've also heard that you can go straight to heaven if you fly aircraft into certain tall buildings and massacre innocent people. This is said to form part of "Five Pillars of Islam" and is the god willing duty of all Muslims.

It's good to see them killing their own for a change.

Typical Islamophobia, a pathetic case indeed.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 21):
What if terrorists get in there? What if a suicide bomber attacks or an airliner is crashed into the site or there's a dirty bomb is set off?

The day Pat Robertson calls for the assassination of G.W.Bush I shall think about your above quotes. Most probably it will never happen.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
solarix
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:03 am

I'm sorry but some of these comments are very inappropriate.
It is sad to see hundreds of people killed. Even worse to see people joking about it.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
thanks for your stupid, asinine comment...

I thought it was pretty funny, myself.  Big grin

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
Someone really ought to ban the Mecca Walmart from having an Xbox sale during the Hajj.

 Big grin

Quoting Solarix (Reply 23):
It is sad to see hundreds of people killed. Even worse to see people joking about it.

You're right.....it IS sad to see so many people die at once. Whats even worse is the fact that it could have been prevented in about a dozen different areas.
Crye me a river
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting Solarix (Reply 23):
I'm sorry but some of these comments are very inappropriate.
It is sad to see hundreds of people killed.

Yeah, I remember how the news was received in the Arab world about the 9/11 attacks and I'm sure all those that were dancing in the streets were thinking the same thing about the WTC and Pentagon victims.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing at this as revenge, I'm merely illustrating that some may not see it as you do and what is "inappropriate" and "sad" to you may be somewhat less so to someone else.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
Shock and dismay

Shock? Dismay? Is that what you feel? Check your terms closely. This is to be expected when this many people engage in this activity. Overcrowded soccer (football) games end up the same way and you should know to expect these things to happen so that you will not be "shocked".

I know, I'm really being a meanie tonight, but I am sick of seeing the terms that the media has been throwing out there being picked up and used by real people. Society today has no idea what "shocking" is. The tsunami last year could be termed "shocking", but numbers like 350 or so getting killed is about what you would expect for the number of people killed in a typical holiday weekend due to drunk drivers. Tell me why nobody seems to be "shocked" about that.

http://www.madd.org/stats/10419

(Edited to add link to source)

[Edited 2006-01-13 04:01:36]
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:47 pm

Anyone's accidental death is unfortunate. Taken as a whole, I don't believe the comments here represent "Islamophobia" as much as they express frustration with the unknown.

In that light, and knowing there are enormous logistical feats to overcome during Hajj, maybe someone could answer a few honest questions I've carried in the back of my mind.

How is Hajj organized on the ground? I see swarms of people but stop and think, where do they all eat, where do they all sleep, how do they find their way back onto the right plane to go home (this is an aviation site, after all)? It can't be like a crowd at St. Peter's Square where everyone just goes back to their home or hotel at the end of the day.
International Homo of Mystery
 
PIA777
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting Solarix (Reply 23):
I'm sorry but some of these comments are very inappropriate.
It is sad to see hundreds of people killed. Even worse to see people joking about it.

Exactly. Some people on this thread are real jerks!!!

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
PIA777
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
I've also heard that you can go straight to heaven if you fly aircraft into certain tall buildings and massacre innocent people. This is said to form part of "Five Pillars of Islam" and is the god willing duty of all Muslims.

It's good to see them killing their own for a change.

You know nothing about Islam.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
PIA777
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 25):
Yeah, I remember how the news was received in the Arab world about the 9/11 attacks and I'm sure all those that were dancing in the streets were thinking the same thing about the WTC and Pentagon victims.

So, when those people who were dancing and celebrating die,
then you can laugh. WHat about the people in Iran holding
candle light vigiles after 9/11?

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
mandala499
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:04 pm

Comments about the football, the fiver, and the Xbox sale I can laugh about... Because, yes, some do act like so... despite what everyone else and the authorities do... (ie. Going through that stone throwing place like there's no one else around...)...

Well, imagine if A.net has a prize of a free BBJ/ACJ with handling and fuel paid for at the end of a 1000m by 2m corridor... I bet we'll all end up in a stampede and probably end up killing a few a.netters...

However, comments such as:
I've also heard that you can go straight to heaven if you fly aircraft into certain tall buildings and massacre innocent people. This is said to form part of "Five Pillars of Islam" and is the god willing duty of all Muslims.

It's good to see them killing their own for a change.


Makes the write as bad as those who commit those horrors...

Yeah, I remember how the news was received in the Arab world about the 9/11 attacks and I'm sure all those that were dancing in the streets were thinking the same thing about the WTC and Pentagon victims

Of course the news never covered the rest of the Muslim world who mourned at what happened due to the numbers of innocents killed...

StuckinMAF,
No you're not being a meanie about the numbers of dead being equivalent to a bad holiday weekend number of deaths... But it just shows the sad reality... but when say 50 people getting killed in a Church accident, ppl do still get shocked...

Now back to the stampede...

Aerowesty,
They got a huge tent city outside Mecca for all the pilgrims to stay... from luxury to the dodgy... depends on your Hajj organizer and the state organizer... There's a timetable on what needs to be done, and it's a massive challenge... The biggest challenge is the stone throwing part... Some people just get carried away throwing the stones at symbols of "temptation and sin" in their life... and they just want to keep throwing and not let others do their bit... There are those who just throw what's required and move on... then there are those what we here call the "sin bean counters..." (ie: I've made XYZ numbers of sins in my life, therefore I must throw XYZ numbers of stones for forgiveness, and ZYX number of stones for further redemption... YES THESE KINDS OF PPL EXIST!... and these are the ones ending up clogging the whole flow)...

In that kind of situation, what are the authorities to do? shoot those who don't wanna move on? Yikes... So far the only thing has been better flow management and not increasing annual pilgrim numbers... even then it's hard.
---

For those who think that it is an honour to die in a Hajj... suicides and martyrdom (or claims of) are excluded! One must perform the Hajj as a person who submits to God... and is there to perform his/her Hajj duties, all personal/worldly vendettas, problems etc, leave them back at home! If one dies of natural causes or dies in an accident during the hajj, then it is considered not honourable, but is considered a "better way" than dying somewhere else... and it is (at least by some) considered that the person have fulfilled his/her Hajj duties in doing so, even if he/she hasn't completed the Hajj when they died.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 11):
It happens every year,and you can't just blame it

No, "it" does NOT happen every year. "Something" happens almost every year. It is different things.

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 14):
I was reading that is an honor to get killed there. And you straight to heaven.

Nonsense ! you should consider to change your paper

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 15):
wondering whether it might be a reason that there are not more actions taken to prevent this sort of thing.

a lot of actions ARE taken to improve matters, but with so many people, it is NOT exactly easy

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 15):
what more can be done.

more and more IS done. My personal idea would be to divide the area into guarded sectors into which only a defined number of people are allowed, and as soon as for instance 20 have left on the end 20 "newcomers" can get in from the start-side.

---
and whomever is joking simply is showing bad behaviour and lack of decency
 
AA777
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:14 am

A friend of mine who is muslim (practicing) told me that its 'good to die at Hajj' because thats when your sins are forgiven etc.... so if you die at Hajj you go straight to heaven apparently. She was all proud that her grandmother died (not sure if it was in a stampede...) while on Hajj.... So IF what she says is true, maybe these stampedes start for a reason? I dunno. Just what i've heard, dont shoot the messenger.

-AA777
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 31):
she says is true, maybe these stampedes start for a reason?

No, and lets NOT got to shoot the messenger. Pilgrims who die while trying to do the pilgrimage of course are blessed people -..... BUT to deduct from this that there might be a kind of suicidal "habit" out of that is clearly beside the point ! Pilgrims in general are eager to tell people at home about their journey and do NOT wish to die, neither to go to heaven prematurely. The problems are in regard to logistical management, general organisation, traffic planning , etc . Very similar to sports-events, aviation-happenings and so on -- where nobody hopes to die ! "Good to die" does NOT mean that people WISH to do so, but that those who for one reason or the other do so are on one side kept in high regard among family and friends and on the other side are regarded as a kind of mudjaheed, people who lost their life in pursuing a religious "program" .
 
rlwynn
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:31 am

I saw on German tv that there is indeed a fairly large number of people who do go there every year for the purpose of dying. And that every year there are some 200 deaths by natural causes there.
I can drive faster than you
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 33):
a fairly large number of people who do go there every year for the purpose of dying

I would regard THIS as complete nonsense. Out of the total of pilgrims, the deaths are BELOW one per-thousand and numerically absolutely irrelevant. The incidents are intolerable in general, and the deaths tragic for families and friends of the victims. But to portray Hadj-pilgrims as a kind of kamikaze-travellers is wrong, bad, intolerable, shabby and disgusting.
 
qr332
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 24):
Yeah, I remember how the news was received in the Arab world about the 9/11 attacks and I'm sure all those that were dancing in the streets were thinking the same thing about the WTC and Pentagon victims.

Were you in the Middle East post-9/11? If not, don't even try to throw these accusations. The American media pulled a video out of its ass with people celebrating, which was later proved to have been shot years before 9/11, and you guys automatically assume all Arabs and Muslims were celebrating. Ignorance at its finest. Did you know that in Gaza, yes Gaza, Palestine, all schools had candle-lit vigiles? Did you know that almost everyone saw this is a terrible crime, because it was 3,000 innocent people who died? Grow up.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 24):
Shock? Dismay? Is that what you feel? Check your terms closely. This is to be expected when this many people engage in this activity. Overcrowded soccer (football) games end up the same way and you should know to expect these things to happen so that you will not be "shocked".

I know, I'm really being a meanie tonight, but I am sick of seeing the terms that the media has been throwing out there being picked up and used by real people. Society today has no idea what "shocking" is. The tsunami last year could be termed "shocking", but numbers like 350 or so getting killed is about what you would expect for the number of people killed in a typical holiday weekend due to drunk drivers. Tell me why nobody seems to be "shocked" about that.

Yes, shock and dismay - 400+ is a big number of people, and it would take a heartless person to think of it without shock. And you want to know why nobody is shocked? Because it has become something normal, it was not 350 people from around the world worshipping God who got stepped on to death. Car accidents and stampedes are two different things.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 35):
RIGHT! I mean, it's not like they're flying airliners into buildings and things like that.

You are so childish it scares me! A dozen out of a billion flew the planes into the towers, and you keep throwing comments at all Muslims?! Gee, Timothy McVeigh blew the shit out of a building in Oklohoma, that must mean all Americans blow buildings up!
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 36):
and it would take a heartless person to think of it without shock. And you want to know why nobody is shocked?

Well, OK then, by your own logic, everybody is heartless.

Tell ya what, bubba. I have no feeling of shock for this. If you do, that's your own business but you nor the media nor the thread starter is going to tell me what to feel shock over. If I feel anything about the whole incident, it's amazement at how the organizers of this "event" do not have the intelligence to provide adequate precautions to prevent this from happening over and over. Would I take my family in there with the "event" having the history that it does? No way! And don't cry to me that it's all for a religious practice. If you believe that, I'm sure the Jim Jones cult is still somewhere that you can find them and join up with them in Guyana, and I KNOW that there are still Branch Davidians around.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 36):
you guys automatically assume all Arabs and Muslims were celebrating



Quoting QR332 (Reply 36):
Gee, Timothy McVeigh blew the shit out of a building in Oklohoma, that must mean all Americans blow buildings up!

Look, I'm not quite that stupid. Just for your own information (and as a reality check) "we guys" know not all Muslims nor Arabs are like that, just like you know (at least I hope you do) that not all Americans blow up buildings. But for the same reason that people are attacking some in this thread for making comments like the "dropped five dollars" and the "Xbox sale at WalMart", you are attacking me for the comments I made. Step back, take a deeeeeeep breath and settle down.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 36):
You are so childish it scares me!

Fear at something as helpless as a few words does not surprise me from someone who is put into "shock" by a media story. I can only imagine that you would be in cardiac arrest if you actually witnessed the Hajj incident with your own eyes.

Condolences to the friends and families of those who died and were injured.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 23):
I thought it was pretty funny, myself.

someone's mother/father/child/grandparent died there...

it wouldn't be as funny if it happened to one of your friends, relatives or loved ones....

i don't think you would be happy if one of your loved ones died a tragic death and then someone making jokes about it...

try being a bit more considerate..

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 37):
it's amazement at how the organizers of this "event" do not have the intelligence to provide adequate precautions to prevent this from happening over and over

have you have been? I can say you haven't..you have no clue what you are talking about....

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 37):
Would I take my family in there with the "event" having the history that it does? No way!

good........the less people of your ilk go, the better it is.. checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
have you have been? I can say you haven't..you have no clue what you are talking about....

It is of no concern whatsoever whether I have been there or not. Here's why:

Fact: Large numbers of people go there every year.
Fact: A stampede often ensues.
Fact: People die.

Conclusion: The organizers of the "event" are negligent in their planning and should be held accountable!

How's that grab ya?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 39):
It is of no concern whatsoever whether I have been there or not. Here's why:

Fact: Large numbers of people go there every year.
Fact: A stampede often ensues.
Fact: People die.

Conclusion: The organizers of the "event" are negligent in their planning and should be held accountable!

How's that grab ya?

because the amount of people who die is statistically extremely small (thought each individual life precious)...

however, given the geograpy/layout/way of worshipping, there is only a finite number of things the govt. can do....

people should bare some responsibility also...

the govt has spent billions upon billions improving the infrastructure.....

once again, its obvious you have no clue what's happening there.

and now lets see...the United States spends billions upon billions in enforcement and education about drinking and driving..yet more than FIFTEEN THOUSAND people die each year and costs the United States north of $51 BILLION....

Fact: large number of people drive
Fact: large number of people drink alcohol
Fact: large number of people drink acohol and drive
Fact: large number of people die

does that meant the various enforcement agencies (i.e-government) are negligent? nopes..

so how does that grab you?
"Up the Irons!"
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
I would regard THIS as complete nonsense. Out of the total of pilgrims, the deaths are BELOW one per-thousand and numerically absolutely irrelevant. The incidents are intolerable in general, and the deaths tragic for families and friends of the victims. But to portray Hadj-pilgrims as a kind of kamikaze-travellers is wrong, bad, intolerable, shabby and disgusting.

Lets say the death rate is only 0.5 person per 1000. With the reported 3million people there that would still be 1500 people.

The report said an average of 200 people die of NATURAL causes at Hadj every year. I am sure the old and terminally ill have every intention of to die a holy death. And there is nothing wrong with that.
I can drive faster than you
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
someone's mother/father/child/grandparent died there...

it wouldn't be as funny if it happened to one of your friends, relatives or loved ones....

Get over yourself, buddy. No one is making fun of the fact that people died. Its a tragic event any way you look at it, especially when it could have been prevented.

However, the absurdity of how they died is where some humor can be found. Nobody is saying that their death is funny. I sure as hell don't need to be lectured on the seriousness of the incident. Save that for someone else.
Crye me a river
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 42):
However, the absurdity of how they died is where some humor can be found.

i'm sure some people found humour in the absurd way which people in 9/11 died also...

if the above statement is true, then....

a). do you think its ok for them to laugh also?
b). its absurd to think that way in any, way, shape, or form?
c). does it depend on who's doing the laughing?
d). two of the above
e). none of the above.
"Up the Irons!"
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
Fact: large number of people drive
Fact: large number of people drink alcohol
Fact: large number of people drink acohol and drive
Fact: large number of people die

does that meant the various enforcement agencies (i.e-government) are negligent? nopes..

so how does that grab you?

You picked the wrong example if you were expecting an argument out of me. How it grabs me is that I am not "shocked" by anything you mentioned, and that seemed to be our point of contention.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 44):
You picked the wrong example if you were expecting an argument out of me. How it grabs me is that I am not "shocked" by anything you mentioned, and that seemed to be our point of contention.

there was nothing supposed to be so-called "shocking" in my posts..
"Up the Irons!"
 
PIA777
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
someone's mother/father/child/grandparent died there...

I know someone who lost their mother-in-law.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 46):
I know someone who lost their mother-in-law.

Inshallah they'll be at a better place...
"Up the Irons!"
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:12 pm

Conclusion: The organizers of the "event" are negligent in their planning and should be held accountable!

Here's where I don't agree...
Channelling 2-3 million people within less than 24hrs to throw a few stones in 3 places isn't an easy feat... It cannot be rescheduled for safety reasons, because if you reschedule it, you end up depriving those people of fulfilling their religious obligations. Even if you hold them accountable, getting a trouble free flow management will still be a major challenge.

You get 2 - 3 million people from every walks of life from every single culture imaginable (from the civilised to the ones who never took a bath and never queue up and still think they own the world)... The only way to get these people to move at the same pace is to put them all at gunpoint to keep moving and probably have to shoot a few of them to show that you're serious! Seriously, trying to get people to ONLY spend a few minutes at throwing those rocks is like trying to tell the devout Jews in the Wailing Wall that they only got 30 seconds to pray before they have to clear the area! The only difference here is, there's about 3 million people waiting in the queue!

Conclusion: The organizers of the "event" are negligent in their planning and should be held accountable!

Here's where I agree... Yeah run the Saudis for their money in court !  Smile LOL

Well, perhaps we should held the mass rapid transit authorities liable whenever some idiot decides to push everyone along in a daily commute and some poor granny stumbles and falls over because of it...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 24):
Yeah, I remember how the news was received in the Arab world about the 9/11 attacks and I'm sure all those that were dancing in the streets were thinking the same thing about the WTC and Pentagon victims.

"how the news was received in the Arab World" ? "dancing in the streets" ? Few if any did celebrate in any way. Western, and particularily US-TV-companies showed the same film with the same particular woman again and again. The "receiving" among most Arabs was rather in the way of astonishment, shock, and in many cases bad expectations of what might result. Arabs in the West groaned "not we Arabs again ! " . But nothing of the "celebration" US-Americans love to complain about.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 35):
But to portray Hadj-pilgrims as a kind of kamikaze-travellers is wrong, bad, intolerable, shabby and disgusting.

RIGHT! I mean, it's not like they're flying airliners into buildings and things like that.

You talk as if "flying airliners into buildings AND THINGS LIKE THAT " were a kind of regional habits !?

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 37):
how the organizers of this "event" do not have the intelligence to provide adequate precautions to prevent this from happening over and over. Would I take my family in there with the "event" having the history that it does?

that the Saudis fail again and again is ugly, but it simply shows that they in a way are not up to requirement. But the "death-toll" in reality by percentage is not as high as such reports might indicate.

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 41):
Lets say the death rate is only 0.5 person per 1000. With the reported 3million people there that would still be 1500 people.

YOUR calculation shows that it in reality "only" is about 0.02 percent or 0.2 per thousand .

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 41):
an average of 200 people die of NATURAL causes at Hadj every year

you first have to take into consideration the climatic conditions of the Hedjaz-region and the inevitable stress at ANY mass-event from football-games and icehockey-games to pilgrimages and over to mass-travel. You as a German might know that there for instance is a German Hospital in Palma de Mallorca --- and that is not only there to cure guests from alcohol-poisoning-problems ! Jets of ambulance-services from Western Europe are regular customers at airports around the Mediterranean and that is NOT training-flights ! IATA-rules (T.A.C.T.) 2.3.3.A.4 explain everything about the ACCEPTANCE of "human remains" on commercial flights while the rules 3.7.9 specify the rates to be applied --- AND it is specified that CREMATED ... to be in "urns ....effectively protected ....by cushioning ...." and THAT not-cremated ..... are to be "in a soldered inner coffin of lead or zinc which ....packed in a wooden coffin" ! --- This just as information, so that you can well prepare your next holidays !
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Hajj Stampede Kills Hundreds

Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 43):
i'm sure some people found humour in the absurd way which people in 9/11 died also...

Why don't you stick to discussing something you have half a clue about.  yes 

The people in the World Trade Centers were there because they worked there. They didn't bring rocks to throw at the 7th floor box once they walked around the 32nd floor 7 times, they didn't try to squeeze every person imaginable in the entire building onto the 7th floor alone, they weren't planning on staying there for the next 12 days, and they didn't have a group within them who came to work that day prepared to die there.

It shows quite a bit of your lack of intelligence when the only response you can resort to is one about Sept. 11. The two incidents have nothing to do with each other. The Hajj is/was/always will be poorly planned..............working at WTC's was not and had been done many years without a death by stampede.

Get over yourself. Life will be easier for you.  thumbsup 
Crye me a river

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