Roger136913
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Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:21 pm

I need advice and I am having a problem getting a low down on the Law.

I contacted no fewer then 25 State offices of Massachusetts on the issue of owning a slot machine.

Problem is most would not interpet the law for me. Local Police station said who cares if it's for personal use. Other's like the County Sheriff's office said any slot machine is not allowed period!

I have climbed the ladder from my local town hall, State Rep local Police all the way to the Governor's office and same thing I get Hmmm we will check into that, or we don't see a problem if it's for personal use, to we can't interpet the law for you.

I spent 6 days calling everyone LOL............Now I could have hired a Lawyer, but why should i if the State won't tell me the Law!!!!!!!! I did call one Lawyer and he wanted $250.00 for the answer no kidding.

Here is the Law

Chapter 271: Section 5A Gambling devices; forfeiture; antique slot machines

Section 5A. Whoever manufactures, transports, sells, offers for sale, stores, displays, repairs, reconditions, possesses or uses any gambling device or parts for use therein shall be punished by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars; provided, however, that fifty percent of the said fine shall be remitted to the city or town in which the violation occurred. The remaining fifty percent shall be remitted to the general fund of the commonwealth. As used in this section, the term "gambling device" means any so called "slot machine" or any other machine or mechanical device an essential part of which is a drum or reel with insignia thereon, and which, when operated, may deal, as a result of the application of an element of chance, any money or property; or by the operation of which a person may become entitled to receive, as the result of the application of an element of chance, any money or property; or any sub-assembly or essential part intended to be used in connection with any such machine or mechanical device. Any gambling device or parts for use therein manufactured, transported, sold, offered for sale, stored, displayed, repaired, reconditioned, possessed or used in violation of this section shall be seized and be forfeited to the commonwealth and disposed of in the manner provided under the provisions of chapter two hundred and seventy-six. In respect to their constitutionality, the provisions of this section are hereby declared to be separable.

It shall be a defense to any prosecution under this section to show that the slot machine is an antique slot machine and was not operated for gambling purposes while in the defendant's possession. For the purposes of this section, a slot machine shall be presumed to be an antique slot machine, if it was manufactured at least thirty years prior to either the arrest of the defendant, or seizure of the machine


Any help would be great
 
Pope
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting Roger136913 (Thread starter):
It shall be a defense to any prosecution under this section to show that the slot machine is an antique slot machine and was not operated for gambling purposes while in the defendant's possession. For the purposes of this section, a slot machine shall be presumed to be an antique slot machine, if it was manufactured at least thirty years prior to either the arrest of the defendant, or seizure of the machine

Is it at least 30 years old?

Do you plan to operate it for gambling purposes (you might want to go look up the statute that defines gambling purposes)?

If the answers are YES and NO to the question, you're fine.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
skidmarks
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:42 pm

You expect American lawyers to give advice - FOR FREE???

I wish you all the best of luck mate Big grin

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
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KaiGywer
Crew
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:16 pm

Q. Do you know why God made snakes just before lawyers?
A. Practice

Q. How many personal-injury lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. Three. One to change the bulb, one to shake the ladder, and one to sue the ladder company.

Q. What's the difference between a dead dog in the road, and a dead lawyer in the road?
A. There are skidmarks in front of the dog.

Q. What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road, and a dead lawyer in the road?
A. The vultures aren't gagging over the skunk

:D
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Roger136913
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Is it at least 30 years old?

Do you plan to operate it for gambling purposes (you might want to go look up the statute that defines gambling purposes)?

If the answers are YES and NO to the question, you're fine

Pope

No the slot machine would be less then 30 years old. And no it is for personal entertainment only.

I know the law states it has to be 30 years or older, but it also stated no drum or reel types. Most slot machines are one or the other even at 30 years old.
Now as far as the word Antique goes, Massachussets calls cars older then 20 years an antique!
I am just looking for any loop hole I can find LOL..
 
Roger136913
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 2):
You expect American lawyers to give advice - FOR FREE???

I wish you all the best of luck mate

Andy

Skidmarks

I understand time is money and hey I can't blame a Lawyer if I called one for not offering free advice. Problem is when I call the Massachusetts Governor's legal council they told be to call a Lawyer LOL, I mean they could have told me since I was talking to a Lawyer!
 
halls120
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 2):
You expect American lawyers to give advice - FOR FREE???

I wish you all the best of luck mate

Many of us give advice for free Andy, but of course the problem is, you get what you pay for, right?  biggrin 

Seriously - I can't give the requester an answer in my capacity as a lawyer, because I'm not licensed in Massachusetts, nor do I have any particular expertise in gambling statutes....

However, as a layman, I'd say Pope is pretty much dead on.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Pope
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Roger136913 (Reply 4):
Pope

No the slot machine would be less then 30 years old. And no it is for personal entertainment only.

I know the law states it has to be 30 years or older, but it also stated no drum or reel types. Most slot machines are one or the other even at 30 years old.
Now as far as the word Antique goes, Massachussets calls cars older then 20 years an antique!
I am just looking for any loop hole I can find LOL..

Dude what are you worried about? If the machine is clearly a part of your personal collection, you don't give other people access to it and you don't keep anyone's money who cares what the law says. This seems to be like speeding, if you get caught, the speed limit matters, but if you don't who cares.

I think your risk of the cops kicking down your door an executing a search warrant on your house because you have a slot machine in it for decoration is next to zero. The police office is giving you the same response. The sheriff's office is telling you in effect don't speed. What do you expect them to say - yeah that's the law but feel free to break it?

Unless there's something you're not telling us about this situation, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Federal law prohibits me having cuban cigars. Does that stop me. Hell no. Am I the only person in the country with cubans in my humidor? Of course not. Do I worry about the police raiding my house in the middle of the night - no.

Now, if I called US customs and asked them the question - what do you think they'd say?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Roger136913
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Posts: 461
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 7):
Dude what are you worried about? If the machine is clearly a part of your personal collection, you don't give other people access to it and you don't keep anyone's money who cares what the law says. This seems to be like speeding, if you get caught, the speed limit matters, but if you don't who cares.

I think your risk of the cops kicking down your door an executing a search warrant on your house because you have a slot machine in it for decoration is next to zero. The police office is giving you the same response. The sheriff's office is telling you in effect don't speed. What do you expect them to say - yeah that's the law but feel free to break it?

Unless there's something you're not telling us about this situation, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Federal law prohibits me having cuban cigars. Does that stop me. Hell no. Am I the only person in the country with cubans in my humidor? Of course not. Do I worry about the police raiding my house in the middle of the night - no.

Now, if I called US customs and asked them the question - what do you think they'd say?

Pope

I agree with you 100%. I did buy a machine after making all the calls with no answers. It's a triple diamond machine and it's 11 years old. The machine is for personal use only as I stated. Though I can use quarters I will use only tokens.
After going to the extreme lenghts with no answers I bought it. I guess more or so cause I was pissed no one from the State or Federal level would answer the question for me  Sad

I do Thank anyone here for the advice  Smile

Even the Local Police said who cares if it's for personal use, but I was trying to be legal and not break the law.
 
amhilde
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:01 am

You should call an antique slot machine store in Vegas- I bet they know all about state requirements- though I suspect you are probably ok.
Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
 
halls120
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 7):
Federal law prohibits me having cuban cigars. Does that stop me. Hell no. Am I the only person in the country with cubans in my humidor? Of course not. Do I worry about the police raiding my house in the middle of the night - no.

Hmmmm. Maybe it's time you start worrying.... Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
planespotting
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Roger136913 (Thread starter):
As used in this section, the term "gambling device" means any so called "slot machine" or any other machine or mechanical device an essential part of which is a drum or reel with insignia thereon, and which, when operated, may deal, as a result of the application of an element of chance, any money or property; or by the operation of which a person may become entitled to receive, as the result of the application of an element of chance, any money or property; or any sub-assembly or essential part intended to be used in connection with any such machine or mechanical device.

from a laymans perspective, it looks as if you may possess a slot machine, provided you do not "operate" it.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
Roger136913
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Amhilde (Reply 9):
You should call an antique slot machine store in Vegas- I bet they know all about state requirements- though I suspect you are probably ok.

Never seen one in Las Vegas, besides I am not sure they would give me the low down on a State level?
 
amhilde
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:25 am

They are usually down by the Stratosphere area- by the Holsum bread factory. I would be willing to bet they would know down to a state level- plenty of people like to buy one to take home. Let me see if i can find a phone number.
Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
 
amhilde
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:39 am

Here is a question- who did you buy the machine from? Is it a Massachusettes supplier? A Triple Diamond machine that is only 11 years old would still be in use in some casinos- they tend to be the machine that I play and Ive noticed they have been disappearing lately.

Try calling Green Valley Gaming- 702-450-3167, or Las Vegas Gaming Supply (702) 261-7370, or One of a Kind Slots (702)444-3644- the first one mentions on their webpage something about machines have to be compliant to the state in which they are located. Call and pose like you are in Vegas and would like to buy the machine you bought but couldnt get descript answers out of your local govt. I still dont think the local cops will agree, but you never know.
Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
 
Roger136913
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Amhilde (Reply 13):
They are usually down by the Stratosphere area- by the Holsum bread factory. I would be willing to bet they would know down to a state level- plenty of people like to buy one to take home. Let me see if i can find a phone number

I know when I was in Vegas inside the desert passage at the Aladdin they sold new ones and the guy said it was against the law. Though that was for a brand new one.

The one I bought is only 11 years old. So the law states 30 years or older  Sad
I was sent a few court transcribes of people arrested buy they were using it for making money, something I am not doing.
 
Roger136913
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Amhilde (Reply 14):
Here is a question- who did you buy the machine from? Is it a Massachusettes supplier? A Triple Diamond machine that is only 11 years old would still be in use in some casinos- they tend to be the machine that I play and Ive noticed they have been disappearing lately

Most casinos are going to a ticket machine and getting rid of the older machines that take quarters or coins. I bought the machine from a company in Ohio and had it freight shipped to me. The company I bought it from has hundreds of them.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:24 am

Just by reading the first sentence of that statute, one can see from a layman's perspective that you're violating the statute.

Whoever manufactures, transports, sells, offers for sale, stores, displays, repairs, reconditions, possesses or uses any gambling device or parts for use therein shall be punished by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars;

Whether it's a law that's actually enforced is another matter entirely as Pope points out. If you have a neighbor who dislikes you enough to call the police or the sheriff's department, you might want to reconsider having it around.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Roger136913
Topic Author
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 17):
Whether it's a law that's actually enforced is another matter entirely as Pope points out. If you have a neighbor who dislikes you enough to call the police or the sheriff's department, you might want to reconsider having it around.

When I called the Local Police and asked they said who cares!!!!!!! Also they can not interpet the law which I understand.
 
planespotting
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 17):
Just by reading the first sentence of that statute, one can see from a layman's perspective that you're violating the statute.

yes but, the law requires that he must have a "gambling device" to be breaking the law, which is later defined in the statute as:

"any so called "slot machine" or any other machine or mechanical device an essential part of which is a drum or reel with insignia thereon, and which, when operated, may deal, as a result of the application of an element of chance, any money or property; or by the operation of which a person may become entitled to receive, as the result of the application of an element of chance, any money or property; or any sub-assembly or essential part intended to be used in connection with any such machine or mechanical device."

the boldened part basically (from my perspective) says that a gambling device is something that when operational delivers "money or property" to the operator. So, the question is if he renders the "money or property" delivery system un-operational, does he still have a "gambling device"?

does it even matter or is the point moot since it says "any so called 'slot machine' " in the statute?
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 19):
the boldened part basically (from my perspective) says that a gambling device is something that when operational delivers "money or property" to the operator. So, the question is if he renders the "money or property" delivery system un-operational, does he still have a "gambling device"?

does it even matter or is the point moot since it says "any so called 'slot machine' " in the statute?

I read it as moot on two points there, Planespotting. First of all, I'm fairly certain that the portion you're referring to refers to the "any other machine" clause rather than the "so called slot machine" clause. Secondly the statute states that it may deliver money or property. "May" is a great "weasel word" to use as it gives you some room to interpret any given statute, as opposed to "will." Similar words, but it alters the meaning completely.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Roger136913
Topic Author
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 20):
I read it as moot on two points there, Planespotting. First of all, I'm fairly certain that the portion you're referring to refers to the "any other machine" clause rather than the "so called slot machine" clause. Secondly the statute states that it may deliver money or property. "May" is a great "weasel word" to use as it gives you some room to interpret any given statute, as opposed to "will." Similar words, but it alters the meaning completely.

This is what I mean, it's not crystal clear  Sad.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 2):
You expect American lawyers to give advice - FOR FREE???

I wish you all the best of luck mate

Andy

Lemme ask you what you do for a living.

Say you're a plumber. Do you fix people's sink for free? What would you say to someone who said to you "Hey. Tell me how I can replumb my house, including the relevant sections of the building code, but don't expect me to pay you anything for your expertise."

So say you aren't a plumber. Say you're a worker bee somewhere. When the boss says "Uhhhhhh. Zeke, I need you to work a couple hours overtime but we won't pay you for it." What would your response be?

Ok. I've said enough. Here's some free legal advice.

He who represents himself has a fool for a client.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
DrDeke
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:48 am

This won't answer your question but I felt like commiserating.

You know the old saying that goes something like: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it"?

That is a true statement in our legal system. But what I want to know is how the HELL can that statement be an important basis of a legitimate legal system when an intelligent, literate, and educated person cannot, even with hours of study and in consultation with intelligent, literate and educated acquaintances, figure out whether something as simple as this is or is not illegal!?

I could give several other examples but there's no need to rant right before quitting time  Smile.

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
Roger136913
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 22):
Lemme ask you what you do for a living.

Say you're a plumber. Do you fix people's sink for free? What would you say to someone who said to you "Hey. Tell me how I can replumb my house, including the relevant sections of the building code, but don't expect me to pay you anything for your expertise."

So say you aren't a plumber. Say you're a worker bee somewhere. When the boss says "Uhhhhhh. Zeke, I need you to work a couple hours overtime but we won't pay you for it." What would your response be?

Ok. I've said enough. Here's some free legal advice.

He who represents himself has a fool for a client.

I agree 100%, no one works for free.

I could have hired a Lawyer and had the question answered once and for all. I do frown upon asking the question to a Lawyer hired by the State for the Govorner by tax payers money only to tell me I should hire a Lawyer though. To me he made it seem like hey cut me a check and I will tell you, that to me is double dipping on the tax payers  Sad

How ever getting a Lawyer hired by me I agree they should be paid. Then again in all sense I guess I am asking any Lawyer here for free advice also which is far from fair.
So maybe this was a bad idea, and I am sorry about that.
 
Roger136913
Topic Author
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 23):
This won't answer your question but I felt like commiserating.

You know the old saying that goes something like: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it"?

That is a true statement in our legal system. But what I want to know is how the HELL can that statement be an important basis of a legitimate legal system when an intelligent, literate, and educated person cannot, even with hours of study and in consultation with intelligent, literate and educated acquaintances, figure out whether something as simple as this is or is not illegal!?

I could give several other examples but there's no need to rant right before quitting time .

-DrDeke

Dr.Dreke you are right Ignorance is not excuse for breaking the law. I did however asked anyone and everyone I could think of for the answer and was shot down was told we will call you back. Well after over 2 Weeks nothing  Sad

I called the following

State Lottery Commish
State Racing Comish
Legislator Branch at the State House
Local town hall
Local Police Dept
Capt of the Local Police Dept
Boston's Criminal bureau
Boston's D.A's office
Middlesex County sheriff's office
Suffix's County sheriff's office
Plymouth county sheriff's Office
Massachusetts Charitable Comish
Governor's Office
governor's Legal Council
F.B.I
The Federal 800 number

State Rep from my District 2 calls to her and an Email and no answer (I will remember that come voting day)

A few other numbers I can't remember now.

I know if I robbed a store what the law would be
I know if I spit on the side walk what the law would be
I know running a red light what the law would be

But to place a law where half the people asked can't answer it or tell me we don't see a problem if it is for personal use or have a few say Slot machines are not Legal period or have some say hmm let us get back to you tells me the law is not cut and dry  Sad

So sad that some laws are so complicated that the average Joe can't understand them  Sad
 
highpeaklad
Posts: 510
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:36 am

And they say America's the land of the free!
I can't believe that its illegal to have a slot machine in your house. The thing about the USA is the laws are so strictly adhered to, its the only country where I've felt like a lawbreaker.
eg swaying to some music in a bar and being told if I didn't stop I would have to leave as dancing is not allowed!
Having to carry my passport everywhere worried i'm going to lose it, just because I might want to have a glass of wine with my lunch (I've only had to have a picture put on my driving license very recently).
Having a bottle of beer snatched out of my hand as it was too late to consume alcohol.
and this was in laid back San Francisco!

Chill out guys!


Chris
Don't try to keep up with the Joneses - bring them down to your level !
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Any Lawyers Here From The States?

Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Highpeaklad (Reply 26):
I've only had to have a picture put on my driving license very recently)

And most of the time, a foreign DL is not a valid form of ID... go figure...
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