AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:47 am

This is a straightforward question that doesn't seem to have straightforward answer. I've read the Conservatives' website, and I do see a reference to national health care in its platform (it's the last objective listed). The reference seems to imply that the Conservatives will strengthen, not abolish, the publicly funded national health care system.

However, various news and commentary articles seem to imply that the Conservatives' Reform-Party heritage and Alberta Premier Ralph Klein's perennial proposals concerning his own Province's health plans -- together with his complaints about federal restrictions -- cast some doubt on whether Harper's intentions are to fulfill his pledge to minimize medical wait times by establishing a private tier of medical clinics and hospitals, and eventually to phase out the current system altogether.

Up to now, no one seems to believe that he's capable of doing it. And now that he has a minority, not a majority government, it seems that he would face a rebellion in Parliament if he even tried.

But -- to the Canadians here -- how do you think Canadians across the country would react if the Conservatives did propose (1) a private medical tier, or even (2) to abolish the current taxpayer-paid system?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

[Edited 2006-01-24 20:48:58]

[Edited 2006-01-24 21:01:00]
What's fair is fair.
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Will Harper Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:49 am

Though I'm not a Canadian, I can guess there would be hell to pay if Harper tried to get rid of naitonal health care. I don't think he'd be stupid enough to even try.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 1):
Though I'm not a Canadian, I can guess there would be hell to pay if Harper tried to get rid of naitonal health care. I don't think he'd be stupid enough to even try.

I dunno. I've never been a big fan of Harper. Someone who could suddenly be so "centrist" after a couple of years doesn't strike me as rigidly stuck to his personal moorings, so it's open to question whether he'll try to curry favor with the Reform wing of his party by thinking up sly ways to undermine the current system.
What's fair is fair.
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:59 am

Stephen Harper is a politician. Like all politicians, he will say what he needs to to get elected. And when they are elected, they do what most people should have known they would do all along.

Bye bye national health care. It was nice knowing yah.
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Nordair (Reply 3):
Bye bye national health care. It was nice knowing yah.

Whoa! That would be quite a jolt to the system!
What's fair is fair.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:09 am

Ummm He cannot....As Healthcare is a Provincial jurisdiction.....they just send money back to the provinces....

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 5):
Ummm He cannot....As Healthcare is a Provincial jurisdiction.....they just send money back to the provinces....

Yup and watch him turn off the tap.
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Nordair (Reply 6):
Yup and watch him turn off the tap.

Wouldn't that be committing political suicide, though?
What's fair is fair.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:18 am

Wouldn't Harper need a majority to pull such a stunt?
What powers does Harper have as a minority leader?
Bring back the Concorde
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):

Wouldn't that be committing political suicide, though?

He'll play the game for a bit until he is sure he can win a majority in an election. And once he does, he'll revert back to his original ways. The "vision" and "standards" that got him chosen as the head of the Conservative party. A leopard does not change his spots. And Stephen Harper is a walking plethora of dots.
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:22 am

The national health care system in Canada may need some updating and improvements, but to get rid of it would be a regressive and horrible social step backward for the country.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
cfcuq
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:55 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Wouldn't Harper need a majority to pull such a stunt?
What powers does Harper have as a minority leader?

As a minority, Harper will have to appease the NDP to retain power, as such, Medicare is safe as it was an NDP invention in the first place.
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
What powers does Harper have as a minority leader?

In a minority situation, he can't! The bill would be defeated easily. A non confidence vote would pass very easily. I could see the old PC who merged
with the reform have serious doubts about the merger if he ever tried do this.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
MattRB
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting CFCUQ (Reply 11):
As a minority, Harper will have to appease the NDP to retain power, as such, Medicare is safe as it was an NDP invention in the first place.

Not to mention the fact that any legislation that did make it past 3rd Reading would have to pass through the Liberal dominated Senate..

IOW, won't happen and Nordair is just blowing more Liberal scare tactic smoke.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Nordair (Reply 9):
He'll play the game for a bit until he is sure he can win a majority in an election

There's a practical issue involved. He would have to implement the change step-by-step, and there would have to be a number of years during which graduated change would have to be made. However, he could do it.

E.g., one possible scenario:

Year 1 -- Basically a primer so Canadians can get used to the idea of paying for their own medical care; Canadians can "opt in" to a private system. Liberals and NDP reluctantly assent on the promise that wait times for medical procedures will be shortened. Harper also cites recent Supreme Court of Canada decision requiring recourse to private health care.

Year 2 -- Reduction in benefits to "equalize" net expenditures between public and private tiers. E.g., if it's 30% "more efficient" to utilize privately provided procedures, then in order to use the public health system, there is a 30% co-payment for the same general service. Harper cites "equity" and the need to maintain adequate funding for the public health tier.

Year 3 -- Tax benefits for publicly financed institutions to convert to private facilities and tax rebate for those who permanently opt out of the public plan. Once a decision is made to opt out, there is no going back except for cases of emergency.

Year 4 -- A deadline is set for mandatory conversion of public health system to a full private system. The tax rebates are made permanent. Conservatives point to the "improvements in wait times" and a "social safety net" for those who cannot afford basic services. A maximum amount of income is determined as a criterion for eligibility for public services, which are now deemed "welfare".

Liberal and NDP criticism is deemed irrelevant, since by the end of Year 3, most public health organizations have been effectively privatized.

[Edited 2006-01-24 21:54:17]
What's fair is fair.
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4282
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:12 am

There is no way on earth that Harper will be able to get rid of it, simple as that. If he tries this kind of nonsense all opposition parties will get together and crush him. The Liberals, NDP and Bloc will work together if that what it takes. If Harper is stupid enough to try something like this he will need to go into hiding once he gets the boot from office as there will be a lot of people after him. An action like this would surely see the left regain power and keep it for a very very very long time.

As for 2-tier healthcare in this country, well it's already here. I had a private MRI done for a rugby injury just a few months ago.

YOWza
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12504
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:14 am

I do see the possibility of a 2-teir system. The private teir would be for those making better than average incomes, and could afford private insurance or their employer using it to attract and keep better employees. The public tier would be for those young, old, or with considerable medical problems and of the working classes. Perhaps a income test would have to be done and one would pay a progresive sliding scale of contributions to the public system based on their income levels.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:20 am

......Healthcare is a right in Canada and not a privilage....It may not be the fastest but I sure will take that over not getting healthcare or leaving a segment of society out....Yes there needs to be some changes but it will say universal....


Healthcare is something that I will fight for....


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
There is no way on earth that Harper will be able to get rid of it, simple as that.

Absolutely true. First, he's not that stupid; Second, I doubt that he wants to regardless of what his opponents would have you believe. Hopefully, he just wants to fix it.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
I do see the possibility of a 2-teir system.

Two-tier already exists. There are private clinics operating in all provinces and they have been for years --- in some cases they were approved by NDP provincial governments. The question is, who funds procedures conducted at these clinics; right now you pay your own way. Both Martin and Layton have used them, and in B.C. the Workers Compensation Board makes extensive use of them to get injured workers back on the job quickly.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 15):
There is no way on earth that Harper will be able to get rid of it, simple as that. If he tries this kind of nonsense all opposition parties will get together and crush him. The Liberals, NDP and Bloc will work together if that what it takes

See, that's what I hear is the majority opinion. Which is what made the following,

Quoting Nordair (Reply 3):
Bye bye national health care. It was nice knowing yah.

... so odd when I read it.

I thought that Canadians would be more protective of their national health program than suggested by Nordair's comment.
What's fair is fair.
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

No, no, and no.

It boggles the mind that so many have bought right into Liberal scare tactics.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
AC_A340
Posts: 2196
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:01 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:56 am

I for one absolutely love the publicly funded healthcare system. Is it perfect? No. Does it need improvements? Yes. Privatized healthcare cannot be instituted easily. It would be political suicide for him, and the conservatives. Alberta is trying to do it, so I'm willing to bet Harper will to. In the long run, it will be the very people that voted for him, that put the nail in his political coffin.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 20):
It boggles the mind that so many have bought right into Liberal scare tactics.

I'm curious why you would be so confident that the idea of phasing out taxpayer-paid health care is simply a "scare tactic".
What's fair is fair.
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:42 am

It's a scare tactic because it would never happen, nor have the Conservatives said that they ever intend to pursue it. Any and every MP that voted for a bill to end public health care would be literally shut out in the next election.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Nordair (Reply 3):
Bye bye national health care. It was nice knowing yah.

Wah wah wah.

You know what? You're a victim of the liberal attack ads, and the false-information about the Conservatives.

First of all, I will always be a user of the public health-care system. I enjoy it, I think that it's a very good system, and yes, I do think it needs to be fixed, and more funding needs to be provided.

Secondly, do you even realize what the public back-lash would be from this? I highly think you'd have massive public demonstrations, and it would be public-suicide if they were to do this.

Now.. where I stand on Private/Public healthcare.

The thing that gets me, is the people in this country who want to 'punish' the people who make money, and can afford to pay for their healthcare, SHOULD they want to opt-out of the public system. I personally believe that as long as we continue to fund the healthcare system, improve it, and provide it to *every* citizen, there's nothing wrong with private clinics opening.

Keep in mind.. the more people who pay for their own healthcare, the more spaces that will open up in the public system.

You can't keep punishing people who make money and can afford to do things, just simply because you're not as well off.

That being said, I also believe that public healthcare should ALWAYS be offered.

1011yyz.
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 24):
The thing that gets me, is the people in this country who want to 'punish' the people who make money, and can afford to pay for their healthcare, SHOULD they want to opt-out of the public system. I personally believe that as long as we continue to fund the healthcare system, improve it, and provide it to *every* citizen, there's nothing wrong with private clinics opening.

Keep in mind.. the more people who pay for their own healthcare, the more spaces that will open up in the public system.

You can't keep punishing people who make money and can afford to do things, just simply because you're not as well off.

That being said, I also believe that public healthcare should ALWAYS be offered.

Agree 100%

There is no reason why I should wait in line if I have the money to pay for it and get it quicker. I'd rather pay a fee and get the care I need when I want it.
nothing
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 18):
Two-tier already exists. There are private clinics operating in all provinces and they have been for years --- in some cases they were approved by NDP provincial governments.

 checkmark 

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 20):
No, no, and no.

It boggles the mind that so many have bought right into Liberal scare tactics.

 banghead 

Quoting AC_A340 (Reply 21):
Privatized healthcare cannot be instituted easily.

 redflag  See above

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 24):
You know what? You're a victim of the liberal attack ads, and the false-information about the Conservatives.

 checkmark 

Does anyone actually realize that the best thing we can have is a minority government. It means they all have to work at it, and any changes to the National Health Care System will only get through parliament if there is a majority vote. Let alone the fact that the Senate is stacked with about 75% Liberals.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:57 am

Public healthcare in any country, when it is established, is a Third Rail issue.

Touch it and you die. Simple as that. Even Margaret Thatcher (may she burn in hell) knew that, and only tinkered around the edges without actually daring to fully dismantle the NHS. The basic principle of free healthcare at the point of provision was never touched under Conservative rule, except by loony right wing focus groups who were promptly told to STFU by realists.

Once phony conservative arguments about choice and cost are swept aside, publicly funded universal healthcare is something no nation will readily give up. The figures are there and cannot be challenged, namely that countries with public healthcare spend less per capita than those without (namely Britain versus the USA).

Secondly, it's a freedom and rights issue. Take away the worry of healthcare costs or insurance and people are free to get on with their lives and wealth creation. So could you see Canada freely giving up the right to public healthcare?

If the new Government of Canada does anything, it'll be to introduce market led reform to the Canadian health provision systems. Getting better value for money is always a good idea, but won't be easy.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 25):
There is no reason why I should wait in line if I have the money to pay for it and get it quicker. I'd rather pay a fee and get the care I need when I want it.

Agreed, under one condition -- as long as there is STATE FUNDED HEALTHCARE FOR ALL CITIZENS.

The MRI I went for two months ago was a private clinic. They billed OHIP. It's still two tier.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 26):
Does anyone actually realize that the best thing we can have is a minority government. It means they all have to work at it, and any changes to the National Health Care System will only get through parliament if there is a majority vote. Let alone the fact that the Senate is stacked with about 75% Liberals.

AGREED WHOLE HEARTEDLY.

The Senate is Liberal-majority.

What I don't get in this country is that if you're a Conservative, you're a Nazi. I just don't simply understand it.

I believe in helping people. I don't believe in life-long help.

I think the problem in Ontario is the Mike Harris effect. Everyone equates Conservative-thinking as "Mike-Harris" thinking..

We need to remember that each Government will govern differently. That was evident with Chretien/Martin. Completely different Governments..

I *really* do not buy into the whole "We're gonna become the next US State under Harper" argument either. Ask yourself a question.. do you *really* honestly think that people in this country would allow that to happen?

I can't believe how stupid people are. I really really can't. Too many people bought into the liberal-sponsored attack on Harper, when they should have focused on the issues at hand.

If you can tell me that you voted Liberal because you support one of their causes, or NDP or Bloq for that matter, then I can respect that.. If you voted for someone else because "Harper is the anti-christ", then pack your bags and move to Switzerland.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 28):
hat I don't get in this country is that if you're a Conservative, you're a Nazi. I just don't simply understand it.

I thought the Cons were all evil.  Smile

I didn't have issues with the old PC's, alot of their political thought reflects my thinking. The New Con's I am not so sure about. I just think it's the old Reform in new clothing. And there was plenty I had issues with the old reform party.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:23 am

The Conservatives are not the Progressive Conservatives of old. I consider the Conservative Party of today to be more Reform than the PC, despite the supposed merger of equals that brought the two together. The Reform Party used the prestige of the PC (such as it was) as a "power suit" to enhance its own standing. The Reform Party had no cachet back East; the Progressive Conservatives did. Not only had the PC's once governed the country, but under Bill Davis, they were a powerhouse in Ontario.

I'd like to know what Joe Clark thinks about the whole national healthcare issue.
What's fair is fair.
 
AC_A340
Posts: 2196
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:01 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 24):
Keep in mind.. the more people who pay for their own healthcare, the more spaces that will open up in the public system.

Not necessarily true. First of all, there is a shortage of doctors as is. The private sector will easily pay more than the public sector; compare what a physician would make in the US, and in Canada. All of the doctors will end up at the private facilities leaving the public system with even longer wait times and fewer spaces.

Second, suppose in a large city, equi-distance from either a private or public hospital, there is a tragic car accident involving someone with no supplemental health insurance (like many Canadians). This person needs urgent medical attention. The paramedics don't know which hospital to take him to, so they end up taking him to the private one. Who foots the bill for these services at the private hospital then?

What about someone with insurance, and they end up taking him to a public facility, which is closer in this example. Is he entitled to services here even if he opted out of the public system? Does he get a break on his premiums because the government paid for it?

And thirdly, there are many, many smaller towns and cities across this great country that would not be able to support a private and public hospital. Does this leave the lower income demographics without access to healthcare that they otherwise could've gotten if a two-tier system did not existed?
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting AC_A340 (Reply 31):
Is he entitled to services here even if he opted out of the public system?

I think you make some very good points, and I agree that there is a legitimate concern that a two-tier system (or, rather, a system that permits greater emphasis on private care than is the case today in Canada) would run the risk of draining resources from public facilities.

In regard to your quoted sentence, I would say only that here in the U.S., federal law requires that all patients be given emergency services wherever they may be taken by ambulance, regardless of their ability to pay. It becomes a sticky wicket, however, once the patient has been stabilized. If the patient has no insurance and cannot pay, he's often expected to transfer to a charitable facility or, failing that, simply leave. (Important note: One secondary source states that a patient must give his consent to be transferred. Two problems: I find it difficult to believe that a hospital can be expected to keep a patient who refuses to be transferred indefinitely, even if the patient is uninsured, cannot pay and does not qualify for Medicare or any similar program. Further, the source provides no guidance as to whether the patient can be discharged rather than transferred. Source: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic860.htm )

Incidentally, people who don't have the resources to pay for insurance have been using emergency rooms often as a substitute for ordinary care, which taxes ER resources greatly.

[EDIT/ADDITION:]

As a gloss on the above two problems, it still seems strange to me that a hospital in the U.S. can be expected to retain patients indefinitely if the patients refuse to transfer, but there is a statement in the relevant law (EMTALA) that applies:

(4) Refusal to consent to transfer.

A hospital meets the requirements of paragraph (c)(1)(ii) of this section with respect to an individual if the hospital offers to transfer the individual to another medical facility in accordance with paragraph (d) of this section and informs the individual (or a person acting on his or her behalf) of the risks and benefits to the individual of the transfer, but the individual (or a person acting on the individual's behalf) refuses to consent to the transfer. The hospital must take all reasonable steps to secure the individual's written informed refusal (or that of a person acting on his or her behalf). The written document must indicate the person has been informed of the risks and benefits of the transfer and state the reasons for the individual's refusal. The medical record must contain a description of the proposed transfer that was refused by or on behalf of the individual.


This same law defines "transfer" to include "discharge".

Reading the whole statute, it seems that if the consent of the patient is refused, but that the refusal is medically and legally unreasonable, then the patient can indeed by discharged. I'm not an expert at this, but this is what apparently is the effect.

See:

http://www.medlaw.com/regs.htm

[Edited 2006-01-25 04:04:29]
What's fair is fair.
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4282
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 18):
Two-tier already exists.

I should have been cleaer the MRI I had doen was paid for by private insurance and it was a private clinic. OHIP had nothing to do with it.

What I meant by two tier was some sort of structure where by a tax break is made available to those who do not use public healthcare. That is the kind of thing I would expect the right to go for. I don't have an issue with this.

All the BS from the campaign trail aside I really hope for the good of this country we can see a little more sense and leadership from those on the hill. The last thing this country needs is a rotating witchhunt mentality such as they have in Italy.

YOWza
 
a380
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:51 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:10 pm

I don't talk politics a lot; but I forecast we will see the gradual erosion of public health care in Canada. No political party can risk political hell by scrapping it altogether, but it can erode the system in different subtle ways. The insurance industry is salivating to have private health care.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:31 pm

Earlier I wrote,

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 32):
Reading the whole statute, it seems that if the consent of the patient is refused, but that the refusal is medically and legally unreasonable, then the patient can indeed by discharged. I'm not an expert at this, but this is what apparently is the effect.

I may be missing the forest for the trees. It appears that the restrictions on transfer under EMTALA apply only before the patient is stabilized.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 33):
What I meant by two tier was some sort of structure where by a tax break is made available to those who do not use public healthcare. That is the kind of thing I would expect the right to go for. I don't have an issue with this

But what if this results in the weakening of public health care? I find it difficult to believe that cutting taxes (GST, tax breaks) can lead to a shortening of medical wait times overall. I think that the Liberals and the others should examine the proposal to shorten medical wait times carefully.

I was told that the Conservatives actually wanted to increase funding for the public health system.
What's fair is fair.
 
AC_A340
Posts: 2196
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:01 pm

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 32):
I would say only that here in the U.S., federal law requires that all patients be given emergency services wherever they may be taken by ambulance, regardless of their ability to pay.

I believe a similar law exists in Canada, additionally, a phsyician cannot refuse his services to someone in dire need. The problems arise after the patient has stabilized, who foot's the bill? What if the pateint doesn't stabilizer for quite some time and requires many surgeries over the course of a few weeks?

Ask Matt D I'm pretty sure it was him) about his opinion on people that can't afford medical services.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting AC_A340 (Reply 36):
I believe a similar law exists in Canada, additionally, a phsyician cannot refuse his services to someone in dire need. The problems arise after the patient has stabilized, who foot's the bill? What if the pateint doesn't stabilizer for quite some time and requires many surgeries over the course of a few weeks?

In Canada, I'm given to understand that it doesn't matter if the patient, post-stabilization, cannot pay, since it's paid by the government.

In the U.S., the only nation-wide taxpayer-paid healthcare programs that are available are Medicare and Medicaid, both of which are limited in their benefits and impose advanced age or disability requirements. Medicaid, I believe, is funded by the federal government and each State. (The much-ballyhooed new prescription benefits, widely panned for their abstruseness, are merely a new feature of Medicare. Incidentally, apparently the taxpayer-paid health program in the Province of Alberta does not cover prescription medicine, oddly enough. According to the official Provincial website, Albertans pay $44.00 (Canadian) for individual coverage, and $88.00 (Canadian), IIRC, for family coverage, for a full range of health benefits, excluding prescription medicine.)

Just a minor self-correction: Regarding my quote, the "ambulance" comment was figurative; obviously, to invoke EMTALA, the patient need not arrive by any specific means, as long as he complains of an emergency condition; once he makes this complaint, and if the emergency condition is found to exist through application of the screening procedures required by EMTALA, then he must be stabilized regardless of ability to pay.

[Edited 2006-01-25 05:40:52]
What's fair is fair.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
apparently the taxpayer-paid health program in the Province of Alberta does not cover prescription medicine

Correct Sort of... For a small fee you can buy prescrip. coverage if your employer does not cover it. Plus seniors and Disabled do not pay.

This is the same in all provinces (Not sure about Quebec).

I pay a premium here in Ontario of about 500 a year...That is all. I use my OHIP card for healthcare.

What i see is not so much as a erosion is more of a European system that will have a public private side by side. But unless society collapses Healthcare up here will not vanish...Maybe see thyings like MRI's and non invasive surgeriies turned over to private clinics but we would still use our gov't health cards to pay for it.
..I believe if any gov't did or tried to dump Health care the Supreme court would overturn it as you can read the right to healthcare in the Canadian Human rights act( It is a little broad)...Not to mention we as a population would dump the gov't in the next election...

GS

I am really glad as I use doctors a lot as I get ready for my Ironman....
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will Canada Phase Out Public Health Care?

Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 38):
..I believe if any gov't did or tried to dump Health care the Supreme court would overturn it as you can read the right to healthcare in the Canadian Human rights act( It is a little broad)...Not to mention we as a population would dump the gov't in the next election...

Thank you for your kind observations and insights.

Relative to the Canadian Supreme Court, wouldn't the Conservatives feel free to exercise the "notwithstanding clause" and override any decision of that Court? My understanding is that, unlike the U.S. Supreme Court, the Canadian Supreme Court does not enjoy the absolute last say if Parliament decides to override its decisions in particular cases.
What's fair is fair.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SOBHI51 and 12 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos