QANTASforever
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Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:17 pm

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/r...lag/2006/01/27/1138319443954.html#

Quite an exceptional argument.

Your thoughts?

QFF
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Brendan03
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:23 pm

Rubbish, Okay so It's kinda average compared to New Zealand and all the many other nations with the Union Jack up in the top corner but I'm proud of my flag! I'd not have it any other way! - It's our identity... If the world doesn't like it they can go shove their heads somewhere dark...

I for one am proud to live under it
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kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:24 pm

Hi QANTASforever

My thoughts ? I think you have broken the SMH website ... I cant bring the link up ... or their home page .

If it is an article about needing a new flag I wholeheartedly agree that it is about time Australia ( and New Zealand ) had proper flags of their own instead of 'made over' versions of the British Blue Ensign .... just ask the Canadians who made the change from a dull 'colonial' flag to one of the most instantly recognisable flags over 40 years ago .


edited to add : perhaps the article upset John Howard and he has had the SMH permanently shut down under his new anti-free speech ( ooops , I mean anti-terror ) laws ?

[Edited 2006-01-28 09:27:57]
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting Brendan03 (Reply 1):
It's our identity

An increasingly smaller amount of Australians would seem to agree wit you.

Quoting Brendan03 (Reply 1):
If the world doesn't like it they can go shove their heads somewhere dark...

If you would read the argument, Brendan - you would see that the Australian flag is the most unpopular national flag within its own country.

Go and read the article.

QFF
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cosec59
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:30 pm

It seems to me that the unpopularity has to do with it's ties to the UK and Australian's wish to sever those ties.
I will be down there in a few weeks and hope to get the same warm welcome as I have on my past visits
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QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 5):
I will be down there in a few weeks and hope to get the same warm welcome as I have on my past visits

You of course will. This has nothing to do with the UK - it's entirely a domestic issue. Australia continues to view the UK with affection as a fraternal country with similar interests and values.

QFF
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:37 pm

Who cares? Everybody knows none of the countries in the world can top Libya's flag...nothing comes close.  Smile
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:40 pm

I'm worried some of you are missing the point. lol

The article is not about what other countries think of the Australian flag, it's what Australians think of it. The Australian flag is the most unpopular national flag within its own country. That's one of the article's main points.

QFF

[Edited 2006-01-28 09:45:53]
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kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:44 pm

Thanks for posting the article .. I just could not get the damned thing open .

I think it has some very valid points ... most of which could equally be applied to my home , New Zealand , as well .

In both cases the flag excludes that increasingly large proportion of both countries populations who are of non-British descent - it may seem a small thing , but in times of tension anything that leads to a sizeable proportion of your citizens feeling somehow alienated is a dangerous thing.

In both case the flags are.... well, dull and anonymous... nobody in the rest of the world looks at an Aussie or Kiwi flag and immediately identifies it with the country in the way that people instantly think "Canada" on seeing the Maple Leaf or "South Africa" with their unique flag . How can our own citizens be expected to identify with something so lacking in Australian ( or in my case , New Zealand ) content .

I will probably be disowned by my father ( the proud owner of an NZ flag bumper sticker with the words "keep it this way" ) but the truth is that it is time for both countries to move on and create their own identities .

[Edited 2006-01-28 09:46:51]
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:45 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):
This has nothing to do with the UK

I couldn't agree more. The issue isn't about liking the UK or not, it is whether it is appropriate for Australia's (and New Zealand's, where the same debate is going on) national flag to place another nation's flag in the 'pride of place' canton position.

I for one believe both countries should have new flags which reflect their staus as independent countries with their own unique identities. It has worked very well for Canada, which changed from a defaced Red Ensign to the Maple Leaf flag in the 1965 - there is no reason it shouldn't work well here.

V/F
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whitehatter
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 9):
I for one believe both countries should have new flags which reflect their staus as independent countries with their own unique identities. It has worked very well for Canada, which changed from a defaced Red Ensign to the Maple Leaf flag in the 1965 - there is no reason it shouldn't work well here.

a flag should reflect national identity, like the South African one does. That is a truly beautiful modern flag. Their previous one still harked back to Dutch Protestant origins and needed to be changed when South Africa changed.
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VH-KCT*
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:35 pm

That's not an article, that's opinionated bandwagon-pushing.

You would never find any arguments for keeping our current flag in that piece, becasue the author, Brendan Jones, is obviously vehemently against our current flag.

Don't forget, also, that this appears in the Sydney Morning Herald, so one immediately knows that it will lean about as far left as it can without toppling over.
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ClassicLover
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:54 pm

To throw a spanner in the works...

I have always been a person who has been content to keep the flag as it is. People fought in wars under that flag, and from a historical perspective I've always felt it would be "disrespect" to those who fought under that flag to change it. It's an incredibly big deal to change the flag of your nation. I see the flag in foreign countries and have a big grin on my face - "That's my country, and they have our flag here!" - it's a wonderful feeling.

However...

The designs in the last flag competition were crap. I don't want a crap flag. I want a beautiful flag I can be proud of. I would like elements from our current flag and the aboriginal flag. How?

Perhaps black over red, with the Southern Cross and Federation Star (is that what it is?) in yellow. I'd accept that. The last flag competition with the mentions of green and gold (spew) or boxing kangaroos (hurl) in the flag, is just not going to get my vote.

Trent.

P.S. QFF, why don't we get rid of Queen Liz and the GG, and have the spawn of Princess Mary become the Monarch of Australia in a purely ceremonial role? Countries with Monarchies are more well known in the International arena - good for tourism. Palace in Adelaide  Smile Maybe I'll save that for another topic.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
People fought in wars under that flag, and from a historical perspective I've always felt it would be "disrespect" to those who fought under that flag to change it.

Who fought in wars under that flag?

You do realise its only been our national flag since the 1950s. We had Korea - which was under the flag of the UN, Vietnam, East Timor, and the Gulf Wars. In none of those wars was the flag ever carried into battle - and nobody has ever "died" under the flag.

If the only reason why you're keeping the flag is out of respect to those who gave themselves in war, perhaps you should remember that the reason they were doing that (in some cases) was to give us the freedom to choose our nation's future. I also think it's highly disrespectful to suggest anyone fought for the flag. A flag is a piece of cloth, a symbolic representation of the country. Soldiers die for what their country represents, not for symbols. Let's at least treasure their contribution with that respect.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
Countries with Monarchies are more well known in the International arena - good for tourism.

Oh yeah. Of course who's ever heard of a little country called the United States of America, or even India, China, Germany, or France for that matter. I hear those places also suffer major problems getting tourists to visit - the French capital especially.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
with the Southern Cross and Federation Star (is that what it is?)

Boy, you've sure given the issue a lot of thought. Are you by any chance related to a prominent Sydney family with interests in aged care?

Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 11):
That's not an article, that's opinionated bandwagon-pushing.

Well, rebut the opinionated bandwagon-pushing then.

Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 11):
You would never find any arguments for keeping our current flag in that piece, becasue the author, Brendan Jones, is obviously vehemently against our current flag.

Of course not. Just as you wouldn't hear any arguments in favour of changing the flag from Alan Jones. What's your point? It's not like Dr. Jones hasn't substatiated his opinion - unlike you.

QFF

[Edited 2006-01-28 11:11:56]
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AirPacific747
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:15 pm

That's really a shame! I love the Australian flag
 
gkirk
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:20 pm

We love our flag.
Signed, The vast majority of Australians.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:22 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
We love our flag.
Signed, The vast majority of Australians.

It's sad you can't read.

QFF
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ClassicLover
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
You do realise its only been our national flag since the 1950s

Nope, had no idea. What were we using before as our piece of cloth? Why was it changed in the 1950s? Give me some background. Says a lot for the teaching in Australian schools about Australia, doesn't it? We went from First Fleet and Eureka Stockade to international history and goodbye Australia.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
Boy, you've sure given the issue a lot of thought. Are you by any chance related to a prominent Sydney family with interests in aged care?

*laughs* No, I'm not. Nor have I given the issue a lot of thought. Why on earth would I? I'm an Australian, that's the flag, and that's it. If people such as yourself wish to change it, go ahead and build up the momentum to do so. I'll vote for whether to change it or not and vote on a design.

I commend you for your opinions, but it would be pleasing if you showed me some respect - in that I mean, you tore apart the things you didn't like and ignored the rest of my post. Not that I take it personally, I quite enjoy the occasional exchange with you!

Trent.
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Gman94
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:46 pm

Oh good it's the old Union Jack is racist symbol argument, it's not like we've had this from the politically correct idiots over here. A right wing group who uses the flag for their own means does not make the whole symbol of the flag racist, change your flag for the right reasons not because a PC idiot tries to make gains for his viewpoint by telling you it's racist.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
have always been a person who has been content to keep the flag as it is. People fought in wars under that flag, and from a historical perspective I've always felt it would be "disrespect" to those who fought under that flag to change it. It's an incredibly big deal to change the flag of your nation. I see the flag in foreign countries and have a big grin on my face - "That's my country, and they have our flag here!" - it's a wonderful feeling.

I think that argument is complete nonsense. If you look back at the history of the old British Empire then probably the most loyal to Britain country was Canada. The country was set up by people loyal to Britain after the American Revolution. Citizens from Canada fought in both world wars under the old ensign and they still remember their fallen under the Maple Leaf. Having been in Canada a number times during the Remembrance Sunday services they haven't diminished in relevance just because a different flag is flying on the pole.

I'm sure Anzac Day will still be remembered and the fallen honoured under a different flag. (Do Australians hold services on Remembrance Sunday as well or are your services held just on Anzac Day?)
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ClassicLover
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 18):
I'm sure Anzac Day will still be remembered and the fallen honoured under a different flag. (Do Australians hold services on Remembrance Sunday as well or are your services held just on Anzac Day?)

Just Anzac Day on 25 April.

My argument may have been pure nonsense, but that is in your opinion. It's how I've thought for most of my life. Anyone is welcome to give me information that may help change my point of view. That 1950s comment for starters got me thinking.
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VH-KCT*
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
Just as you wouldn't hear any arguments in favour of changing the flag from Alan Jones.

Don't use the Alan Jones example again. For the very last time - I'm from Melbourne, I've never listened to Alan Jones, and I know very little of him except that he has very hard-line views that would never be allowed to be broadcast in Melbourne - the aggressive parochial culture that exists in Sydney is not indicitive of the rest of the country (although Sydney-siders seem either reluctant or incapable of considering the existence of Australia outside it's own sprawling borders).

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
Well, rebut the opinionated bandwagon-pushing then.

A flag can represent whatever you want it to. Here, in a publication that is dominated by the "shame, Australia culture" we have another elite preacher pushing the line that the Australian flag stands for racism and xenophobia. It's not as if this crap hasn't been published a million times before in this and The Age - just replace flag with John Howard, the Government, Phillip Ruddock, any other Liberal Politician you care, immigration policy, environmental policy, foreign policy etc.

The flag stands for all Australians, it carries the Federation Star - the seven points representing the colonies that came together to form the nation (for which we are told to be shameful), it carries the Southern Cross, which has come to represent Australia and it's neighbours, and yes, it carries the Union Jack (hang your heads in shame) for which we owe a great part of our (shameful) history. (No doubt you will tell me that the UK played a very minor part in our history, and that it's role is severly overstated by white supremisists who are bent on oppressing minorities and spreading hate) but I would think it would be very difficult for you to pass off the involvement of Britain as un-noteworthy.

Finally, I am sick to death of the Cronulla Riots being brought into every argument about racism. For goodness sake, this was an isolated incident. That's right - isolated. From a population of 20 million, just how many fools were involved in the riots? A couple of hundred? Maybe a thousand? And in how many cities and towns were these idiots? That's right - one! Not ten, not two, but one.

But the "shame, Australia culture" jumps all over it, because here is their proof, finally, that we're all racists. The kind of "thinkers" who write for publications such as The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age are those who have battled for years to prove to us all that we're racists, and they've sucked up every last remnant of that one isolated day and run with it for months because finally they can put into evidence the proof that every last one of us is of a racist mind and culture.
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Banco
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 5):
This has nothing to do with the UK - it's entirely a domestic issue.

Actually, although you are correct in that it shouldn't have anything to do with the UK, it does if people start to say that the flag has a racist element because of the Union Flag in the corner. Whether that's because of Australian history or otherwise, once the subject veers on to that, then it becomes an issue of importance to us, because we then can object to our flag appearing in yours.

You see, at that point, people aren't denigrating the Australian flag, they're denigrating the British one. At that point it does become our business, even though the whole question of what is the best flag for Australia shouldn't be - and needn't be.
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QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 17):
Why on earth would I? I'm an Australian, that's the flag, and that's it

Am I to assume that you've *never* questioned any of the symbols or institutions that constitute the Australian nation?

What on earth did they teach you in school?

Okay, here's our history lesson for the day.

After federation in January 1901, the Australian government went about organising a competition for a national flag (rules out the Boer War then Classiclover). Over 32,000 entires were received - and let me tell you, comparatively we got lucky. Five almost identical entries were chosen as the winning design, and their designers shared the 200 pounds prize money. They were: Ivor Evans, a fourteen-year-old schoolboy from Melbourne; Leslie John Hawkins, a teenager apprenticed to an optician from Sydney; Egbert John Nuttall, an architect from Melbourne; Annie Dorrington, an artist from Perth; and William Stevens, a ship’s officer from Auckland, New Zealand.

In 1901 in response to the result of the competition, the fiercely Republican newsletter The Bulletin (how times have changed) wrote:

...a staled réchauffé of the British flag, with no artistic virtue, no national significance... Minds move slowly: and Australia is still Britain's little boy. What more natural than that he should accept his father's cut-down garments, - lacking the power to protest, and only dimly realising his will. That bastard flag is a true symbol of the bastard state of Australian opinion.

Two versions were produced - a red ensign and a blue ensign. The blue was used for official government use, while the red was used by the general public and on merchant vessels.

In 1908 the British admiralty altered the flag, changing the layout of the stars in the southern cross. To settle the confusion caused by this alteration, the Australian government published a definitive layout of the flag in 1934 (that's the first world war gone, Classiclover).

Over the 1940's the Australian government encouraged use of the Blue ensign over the union flag and the red ensign as the national flag. It was not until the flags act of 1953 (the first piece of Australian legislation signed in Australia by the sovereign) that the Australian flag was officially recognised as the national flag (there goes WWII).

By the 1950s the era of soldiers riding into war, flag in tow was well and truly over. I daresay carrying a bloody great flag around the jungles of Vietnam and over the skies of North Korea would prove dangerous and inefficient.

So there you have it. The Australian national flag has been the national flag for only 53 years.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 17):
If people such as yourself wish to change it, go ahead and build up the momentum to do so.

People such as myself? Australian people? We don't mind if we do. And I daresay it's looking more and more like the momentum is there.

QFF
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QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
it does if people start to say that the flag has a racist element because of the Union Flag in the corner.

I agree to a point. I think most racist connotations have come about as a result of the behaviour of Australian white supermacists as opposed to anything the British ever did. That's essentially what that article has said - that aside from any historic meaning the Union flag has, it has been bastardised and hijacked by certain unsavoury characters. By all means object to your flag being a tool of racist forces in this country, but don't expect much sympathy if you get stuck into denying or downplaying atrocities committed by the British against indigenous people (to use one example).

QFF
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yowza
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Brendan03 (Reply 1):
Rubbish, Okay so It's kinda average compared to New Zealand and all the many other nations with the Union Jack up in the top corner but I'm proud of my flag! I'd not have it any other way! - It's our identity... If the world doesn't like it they can go shove their heads somewhere dark...

I was under the impression the survey was done per country, so it's Australians who like it less...

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
Who cares? Everybody knows none of the countries in the world can top Libya's flag...nothing comes close.

Yeah it is quite the masterpiece. Guess Betsy Ross had that day off.

Canada's flag is not very old at all and has become very recognizeable. I think it would be nice for Australia, NZ, Fiji and all the other flags bearing the union jack to make new iconic pieces of their own. I'd imaine most people can't even tell the Aussie and Kiwi flags, apart.

I remember reading an interview with some smug POM aristrocrat and he was asked how he felt about Australia doing so well at the olympics. His reply was along the lines of "every time there flag goes up, our is right up there too." (relating to raising flags during anthems.)

I'd like to see Australia go with something in their green and gold, great colours. As for the kiwis well that's going to be black  Yeah sure

All that said this may never happen. After all the province I live in here in Canada has a union jack on it  Yeah sure

YOWza

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VirginFlyer
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 11):
this appears in the Sydney Morning Herald, so one immediately knows that it will lean about as far left as it can without toppling over.



Quoting VH-KCT* (Reply 20):
The kind of "thinkers" who write for publications such as The Sydney Morning Herald

Would that be the same Sydney Morning Herald that publishes Miranda Divine and Gerard Henderson, or are you thinking about a different one?

Really, unless you're deliberately trying to be closed minded, I don't see why it should matter whether this article was published in the SMH, or any other mainstream Australian newspaper. It seems to me that you've got a chip on your shoulder about the SMH, for whatever reason, and you're using this as an excuse to vent...

Back on topic, I am not entirely convinced that, from the point of view of someone who would like to see a new flag, smearing the current flag is the best way to go. I honestly don't think that the use of the current flag by fringe elements is enough of a reason to change it. Symbols are unfortunately hijacked by extremists all the time. The KKK, for instance, use Christian crosses as part of their racist campaigns. That doesn't mean the Christianity should look for a new symbol.

Arguments which call for a change of flag due to its use by a lunatic few are a sideshow which should not be given serious consideration. The same goes for arguments which call for keeping the flag because 'people fought under it'.

The real debate must centre around what is an appropriate national flag - one which shows shows subservience to the UK by placing that nation's flag in the canton position, or one which is uniquely Australian, and represents this country as a whole, and not just one facet (albeit a large one) of our heritage. At the end of the day, we must fall back on the great democratic notion that 'the people always get it right', and put the issue to the people. If they ask for a new flag, great, if they don't, well then I'd be disappointed, but that's the nature of a democratic society. Either way, I think the time has come in this nation's history to put the question out there. If Canada could do it without the sky falling, I'm sure we can too.

V/F
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QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 25):
Symbols are unfortunately hijacked by extremists all the time. The KKK, for instance, use Christian crosses as part of their racist campaigns. That doesn't mean the Christianity should look for a new symbol.

I don't really agree with that analogy. The Christian cross is a symbol that has the support of the overwhealming majority of Christians and is a spiritual and quite sacred symbol. I don't believe it's correct to liken it to a national flag created 105 years ago and hanging on with the support of a minority of the people its supposed to represent. The Christian cross is a representation of an event, not a symbol that is supposed to reflect a country - it's people, aspirations, and values.

While I don't believe that the issue of having the flag hijacked by racist forces within this country is enough to change the flag, it certainly compliments the growing case against it.

But I agree that racists should not dictate the national agenda, nor force us to change our flag. It should be done on our own terms. However, the negative connotations that the current flag represents are now a little too potent to be ignored entirely.

QFF
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 26):
it certainly compliments the growing case against it.

And the argument of 'people fought under it' complements the case for keeping the flag. They are both distractions from the real issue of what makes an appropriate symbol for an independent nation.

Let's not forget the lessons of the Republican Referendum, which was defeated by the divide and conquer tactics of the monarchists, who succeeded in splitting the Republican camp in two of the question of the model. If the major issue becomes whether the current flag is racist or not, as opposed to whether it is an appropriate symbol or not, then the pro-change movement will be likewise be split, and the 'status quo' movement will once more break the nation's heart.

I can't say enough, arguments appealing to the use of the flag by racists on one hand or by the armed forces on the other are distractions which muddy the waters around the real question of what the appropriate symbols for a nation are. If the waters are muddy, then chances are the majority will vote to keep things as they are. That's why the 'status quo' movement always wheels out the argument about battles fought under the flag. And that's why the 'change' movement is, in my view, unwise to base its case on the actions of a group of racist thugs.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 27):
If the major issue becomes whether the current flag is racist or not, as opposed to whether it is an appropriate symbol or not, then the pro-change movement will be likewise be split, and the 'status quo' movement will once more break the nation's heart.

I like the Turnbullian reference, but I think there's a greater possibility of the pro-change movement becoming split over a choice of two designs for a new flag than the question of the incumbent being a symbol of racism. Art being the subjective beast it is, this will not be easy. As I have said to you, I shall say to others here - it must go: Republic first, flag second. That's the only way it's going to fly.

I think the main thing stopping the pro-change movement from emulating the Republicans at the constituional convention is that we know what happens when a pro-change movement splits...

...they lose.

QFF
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kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 24):
I'd imaine most people can't even tell the Aussie and Kiwi flags, apart.

a few years ago a small rural post office in New Zealand created quite a stir when they flew an Australian flag by mistake ... though it did take a week and a half before anyone noticed that the new flag was not quite right

Quoting YOWza (Reply 24):
As for the kiwis well that's going to be black

I wouldn't bet on it ... a number of designs have been suggested over the years and the most popular designs have usually involved blue/green and some form of Koru ( the fern symbol on Air NZ aircraft ) . I think that there is a recognition that Black with a silver fern is fine for sports uniforms but not for a flag .
 
777236ER
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:57 pm

So change it then.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:08 am

I wish that you would have made it clear this article is an op-ed piece and not a news story.

The author is clearly anti-flag and takes advantage of the fact that there is a significant, if minority percentage that resent the form of government under which they live.... which is something else that bothers me just a little.

The Australian form of government is a constitutional monarchy where the Queen is the queen of Australia. Many take umbrage because they feel that she is a foreigner....but that seems to run counter to what that same group of people feel about the immigration and racial issues in Australia.

There is much to-do made of the flag, most all of it politics where the people that want a different flag think it will change the basic nature of the nation. It won't and it would simply create more division since the people who are currently in the majority would then feel deprived and disenfranchised.

The people who resent the British origins of the majority of Australians will need, in my opinion, to get over that feeling and find ways to move forward working to correct past mistakes while respecting that which merits respect. The original settlers (not transportees, who later integrated into society) made the same mistakes all settlers in lands new to them make....but they also displayed courage and the frontier spirit that pushes cultures and societies into the future. Reconciliation must be the order of the day, not further divisiveness, and every flag in the world has been misused at one point or another. Do I want to ditch the US flag because slave ships once docked underneath it? No. My flag represents a nation that has made tremendous strides in all areas of positive growth...in justice, culturally, democratically, etc....and will continue to do so.

I think the Australian flag represents a nation that does the same. Wasting time on the flag is probably the least productive thing that one can spend time doing when there are obviously other issues happening.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
The people who resent the British origins of the majority of Australians will need, in my opinion, to get over that feeling

I am not actually sure because of immigration trends over the last 30 years that British-descended Australians are still a majority

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Do I want to ditch the US flag because slave ships once docked underneath it? No. My flag represents a nation that has made tremendous strides in all areas of positive growth...in justice, culturally, democratically, etc....and will continue to do so.

and that is the whole point ... your flag does represent your country ... many Australians and New Zealanders feel that their flags do not represent theirs .
 
Airdolomiti
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:37 am

I personally always liked Australia's and New Zealand's flags, but I can see the point behind the arguments of those who don't think it represents their country.

I found this proposal for a new Australian flag design on the internet and thought it looked quite nice: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~brendan.jones/flags/
 
Klaus
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:04 am

I found this bit on the AUSFLAG web site particularly funny:

Quote:
"The Australian Monarchist League today proved quite unequivocally that the Australian Flag must change," the Executive Director of Ausflag, Mr Harold Scruby said today.

"For years the monarchists have been denying that the Australian flag is confused with other British colonial ensigns, particularly the flag of New Zealand.

"Today, they have proudly published the New Zealand flag on their web-site, mistaking it for the Australian flag, under the heading - 'Appeal: The threat to Democracy in the English Speaking Nations.'

Ausflag - Ausflag Media Releases

Apart from the confusion for everybody else abroad (and even for many at home, it appears ), I do indeed see a problem with the current one.

As the current design is, it refers exclusively to

a) Britain (via the Union Jack)

and

b) a location (via the southern constellations, although I keep having problems telling the AUS and NZ flags apart)

It basically says: "Britain colonized this region!"

That's it. Nothing else. Both aborigines and immigrants from countries other than Britain are not represented, not even implicitly.

Sure, it's not necessarily a big deal; But when you're looking at the canadian example a truly unique and beautiful design would certainly be an improvement.

Of the proposals presented, I like this design best:



It immediately says "Australia!" - no mistake possible. It's classy, unique and does still implicitly refer to the british part of Australia's heritage while acknowledging the much longer native history. I'd hope that the design that would be actually chosen would be at least as nice as this one!
 
Banco
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):
I agree to a point. I think most racist connotations have come about as a result of the behaviour of Australian white supermacists as opposed to anything the British ever did. That's essentially what that article has said - that aside from any historic meaning the Union flag has, it has been bastardised and hijacked by certain unsavoury characters. By all means object to your flag being a tool of racist forces in this country

Yes, I agree, and this is my point. At what stage do we, as modern British people, start to say that we object to the Union Flag being carried on the Australian one? All I'm saying is that it cuts both ways. All too often we hear complaints about the Australian flag having the Union Flag in the corner from the Australian perspective. It can come from our side too. It largely doesn't, because people don't really care (as we both know  Wink ), but I do get slightly fed up when this topic can often descend into an anti-British slagging purely because Australia hasn't got around to changing it.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):
but don't expect much sympathy if you get stuck into denying or downplaying atrocities committed by the British against indigenous people (to use one example).

But we don't. We're more than aware of the greatness and the shame of our history. We don't need others to tell us. But we were neither unique in this, nor often the worst, and equally many of those who committed the worst acts are your (as in Australian) ancestors, not mine. There is often a temptation to say that anything bad was by the British, anything good by the Australians. The same happens in US history. C'est la vie.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
QANTASforever
Topic Author
Posts: 5794
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):
So change it then.

Brilliant.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Many take umbrage because they feel that she is a foreigner

But she *is* a foreigner!

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
but that seems to run counter to what that same group of people feel about the immigration and racial issues in Australia.

Oh you must be joking.

You absolutely are pulling my leg with that one.

Are you seriously saying that objecting to the existence of an absent foreigner as our head of state runs counter to our policy of multiculturalism?! lol

Immigrants come to this country to live and to contribute to our society. They live and work in this country to the exclusion of all others. How you can liken this to a foreign Queen who lives in another country, has first allegiance to another country, and when travelling around the world identifies with only one of her 16 realms, simply defies logic.

At best, your point is highly dubious.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Wasting time on the flag is probably the least productive thing that one can spend time doing when there are obviously other issues happening.

So says a man from a country who waged a war of independence while halting progress in the fields of public sanitation, health, and fostering good relations with native americans. I can assure you that we're capabale of doing several things as once.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Of the proposals presented, I like this design best:

I don't think Australia should have a flag that is so visibly divided. It has what you term the "British" side, divided by a line and on the other side is representation of the indigenous people. The southern cross is about as British as a Kangaroo. Still - that flag you posted represents only two groups in society, and doesn't make provision for everyone from every background. We need a flag that we can all be seen to be part of.

I think the final choice will be something simple, and visually pleasing - such as this:



Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
but I do get slightly fed up when this topic can often descend into an anti-British slagging purely because Australia hasn't got around to changing it.

I think we've done a good job of avoiding that....for once. Big grin

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
There is often a temptation to say that anything bad was by the British, anything good by the Australians. The same happens in US history

So is this why all the bad guys in Star Wars have British accents?
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
Who cares? Everybody knows none of the countries in the world can top Libya's flag...nothing comes close.

A lot of work went into that flag I can tell you !!
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 36):
I don't think Australia should have a flag that is so visibly divided. It has what you term the "British" side, divided by a line and on the other side is representation of the indigenous people.

I wouldn't primarily associate the stars in the sky with Britain... The british colours are still there, but the primary symbols are quite independent.

But of course it matters most that australians themselves can identify with it - I for my part am quite content if I can immediately distinguish the flag from others. And that is where the "stars only" design you've presented above falls short - it's simply bland and has nothing to it that at least I could call characteristic for Australia. Aren't there several others with stars on blue and just a few marginal ornaments? It would just be another kind of confusion.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:41 am

Just out of curiosity, what are the origins of the seven-pointed star? I'm more familiar with the five-pointed star (such as the ones that are in our flag). Thanks.
What's fair is fair.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:47 am

as a Kiwi I am probably not qualified ... but I think the "Federation Star"
represents the 7 States and Territories of Australia

New South Wales ; Victoria ; South Australia ; Queensland ; Tasmania ; Western Australia ; Northern Territory ; Australian Capital Territory

.... wait a sec ... that's 8 isn't it ???? Bang goes that theory
 
AerospaceFan
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 40):
but I think the "Federation Star"
represents the 7 States and Territories of Australia

That's a cool explanation. Thanks!  Smile
What's fair is fair.
 
QANTASforever
Topic Author
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 39):
Just out of curiosity, what are the origins of the seven-pointed star? I'm more familiar with the five-pointed star (such as the ones that are in our flag). Thanks.

As a bit of a trivia - Australia and Jordan are the only two countries to feature a seven pointed star on their flag.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 40):
New South Wales ; Victoria ; South Australia ; Queensland ; Tasmania ; Western Australia ; Northern Territory ; Australian Capital Territory

This is another thing that has changed in meaning over time. Originally the Australian flag featured six pointed stars - to represent the six colonies of Tasmania, South Australia, Western Australia, New South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria. However this was changed to a seven pointed star to recognise the Australian colony/territory of Papua (now Papua New Guinea). After Papua New Guinea gained independence from Australia, the seventh point has come to represent Australia's territories - including, the northern territory, the Australian capital territory, the Australian Antarctic territory, Jervis bay, Christmas Island, The Cocos islands, and Heard and Mcdonald Islands.


QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 3):
Quoting Brendan03 (Reply 1):
It's our identity

An increasingly smaller amount of Australians would seem to agree wit you.

It is currently, our identity, to overseas nations, but a change in flag will better represent our identity.

Quoting Brendan03 (Reply 1):
so It's kinda average compared to New Zealand

Have you had a close look at the New Zealand flag? The only difference is there is a star missing and the colouring.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
Who cares? Everybody knows none of the countries in the world can top Libya's flag...nothing comes close.

I suppose your one of these Americans who are completley out of tune with the rest of the world, and think that everyone needs to have a sawn off shot gun in the closet, and that every Australian has a pet Kangaroo in their living room.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 16):
It's sad you can't read.

I'd like to quote a comment of yours regarding Scotland, but I fear if I do, like you were, I will be banned. But I think you know what I'm talking about.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 40):
as a Kiwi I am probably not qualified ... but I think the "Federation Star"
represents the 7 States and Territories of Australia

The seventh point represents the territories. If we were to have a point for every territory it would look more like a circle then a star, as there are more then two territroies. By the way. We only have Six states.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
The seventh point represents the territories. If we were to have a point for every territory it would look more like a circle then a star, as there are more then two territroies. By the way. We only have Six states.

that explains how I was coming up to 8 - I had the six states and two territories with a point each - I didnt realise that NT and ACT share a point - thanks
 
QANTASforever
Topic Author
Posts: 5794
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
Have you had a close look at the New Zealand flag? The only difference is there is a star missing and the colouring.

...and the stars are positioned differently and have less points. But of course you knew that.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 43):
I'd like to quote a comment of yours regarding Scotland, but I fear if I do, like you were, I will be banned. But I think you know what I'm talking about.

You mean:

"Since when is Scotland a ******* country?!?"

Your point?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
bill142
Posts: 7853
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 45):
...and the stars are positioned differently and have less points. But of course you knew that.

Yes but to the un-trained eye.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 45):
Your point?

Highlighting the ignorance of our scottish friend, and his whinge and win attitude.
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:53 am

Of the submissions to that newspaper, this is the only realistic option:



But I think the Stars and Stripes should be a little bit bigger... and maybe centered on the flag.  Wink
Dear moderators: No.
 
QANTASforever
Topic Author
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RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 47):
Of the submissions to that newspaper, this is the only realistic option:

Hehehe - you have no idea how vexillilogically correct you may be.

But placing two primary colours right next to each other is poor design form. Plus Australia's heraldic colours are blue and gold, while the national colours are green and gold.

Bill - at least if that flag were instituted it would be an improvement over the incumbent. Don't you think?  Wink

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Australian Flag World's Most Unpopular

Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 48):
But placing two primary colours right next to each other is poor design form.

You callin' our flag ugly? box 

Well, I didn't design it.
Dear moderators: No.

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