Beaucaire
Topic Author
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:09 am

The german criminal investigation office has revealed reports that incriminates some german companies involved in illegal transfer -via Russia -of high-tech material used for ABC weapons.
Intelligence sources-following an article in the news-magazine "Focus",have advised the german foreign minister about those facts and Steinmeier has voiced threats to Theran regarding sanctions .
Germany has traditionally good ties to Iran.


http://www.fr-aktuell.de/ressorts/na...ik/nachrichten_aktuell/?cnt=795983
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Thorben
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:59 am

This doesn't look good at all. They seem to be storing all kinds of chemical and biological weapons. One Pasdaran (revolutionary guard) commander also said that their rockets can reach every region of Israel. If you compare all the evidence of the Iranians searching for WMDs to the "evidence" that was enough to attack Iraq, you'll notice that the US attack against Iran is almost overdue. The question is: Can the US really do it? The army seems to be close to its crackdown, according to a report issued a few days ago and airstrikes alone will not do it. Bomb them for a couple of weeks - and then? If the US is going to attack it, then they need to occupy the country and leave a stable government that is not a threat to Israel.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Boeing Nut
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:25 am

All this saber rattling is starting to get a little unnerving.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Klaus
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:26 am

A military attack (alone?) wouldn't bring much of an improvement; There would probably have to be economic and political pressure as well. Politically many of Iran's neighbours in the region won't be thrilled at the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran... And Iran has always attempted to get into a leadership role. Making that strategy backfire on them would have to be a part of a counter strategy.
 
mrmeangenes
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:15 am

I suppose one should not be surprised at French and German statements about Iran: it has finally dawned upon the EU that rockets which can hit Israel can also hit parts of Europe.

La Belle France has had some recent experience in dealing with Islamists-on its own soil-with France the TARGET.Germany has also had some "close encounters of the worst kind."

I believe Donald Rumsfield was on the right track when he said to Europe,in a Der Spiegel interview : "You have the lead on this. Now lead !" (or words to this effect.)
gene
 
Klaus
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:42 am

There have been no illusions about the potential threat - you just don't present any evidence you are aware of the alternatives with all the consequences they would come with.
 
AsstChiefMark
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:45 am

Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
halls120
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
The question is: Can the US really do it? The army seems to be close to its crackdown, according to a report issued a few days ago and airstrikes alone will not do it. Bomb them for a couple of weeks - and then? If the US is going to attack it, then they need to occupy the country and leave a stable government that is not a threat to Israel.

As we demonstrated in Iraq, you need boots on the ground to really prevail in armed conflict. We simply don't have the troops we need to occupy Iraq and Iran at the same time.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:48 am

I'm going to shock a lot of people here.

The more I hear coming out of Iran-the nuke talk, the talk of destroying Israel, the talk that they can see a world without the U.S. The further and further they get into this Islamic Miltiancy, I've come to think the following:

-It's time to double the U.S. Presence in Iraq, if it can be done; and increase our presence to the east in Afghanistan.

-These forces should be there NOT to police Iraq, but put in Eastern Iraq, along with as many airbases as possible, as a warning to Iran, and as a barrier to any incursions westward by Iran, if they even have such ideas.

-Make it absolutely clear to them that they will be welcome at any negotiations on their WMD program, that the door is open to discussion, but that ANY attack launched in the region-against Israel, against Iraq and American troops-any attack, will be met with a retaliatory response of the same magnitude. That means if you launch non-WMD missiles at Israel, or Afghanistan, or Iraq or anyone, the U.S. will do the same; if they launch even a ground probe over someone's border, the U.S. and anyone who wants to joine us, will do the same; if they launch a chimical, bio or nuclear strike of any sort in the region, the U.S. will retaliate the same.

Iran and it's belligerance is becoming an increasing worry, and my worry is, as it has been all along, that the U.S. picked on the wrong country in the region when it came to ability to threaten others. Iraq was a beaten, run-down nation; Iran is a nation ran by crazy men, far more dangerous to the outside world than Saddam ever was.

But it can't just be the U.S. in such an effort. Europe, Russia, the Arab nations in the region (who, if they don't realize that these fools are as big a threat to them as to Israel, they're fools), need to make clear that Iran will be leveled, if need be, to eliminate the potential threat they pose. No pre-emption here, let Iran hang themselves.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:55 am

they are taking the necassary steps from getting invaded.........


they probably see what happened with Iraq and North Korea and decided that its better to take the "armed approach" than the "passive" approach...


also, if Iran wanted to "destroy Israel", it probably would have already removed/killed/whatever the 20,000 or so Jews who live in Tehran right now...

A big problem the United States (and to a certain extent, the EU) has is that Iran has A LOT of backing from Russia and China.....this is something which Iraq didn't have.......

my personal belief is that North Korea gets a lot of backing from China also...but I guess that's another subject.......

[Edited 2006-01-29 04:24:03]
"Up the Irons!"
 
halls120
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
I'm going to shock a lot of people here.

The more I hear coming out of Iran-the nuke talk, the talk of destroying Israel, the talk that they can see a world without the U.S. The further and further they get into this Islamic Miltiancy, I've come to think the following:

-It's time to double the U.S. Presence in Iraq, if it can be done; and increase our presence to the east in Afghanistan.

While I agree with your characterization of the problem we face, it simply CANNOT be a unilateral effort. Our ground forces cannot be stretched any further. The only way we can commit more troops to Iraq would be to pull our forces out of South Korea.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
-These forces should be there NOT to police Iraq, but put in Eastern Iraq, along with as many airbases as possible, as a warning to Iran, and as a barrier to any incursions westward by Iran, if they even have such ideas.

-Make it absolutely clear to them that they will be welcome at any negotiations on their WMD program, that the door is open to discussion, but that ANY attack launched in the region-against Israel, against Iraq and American troops-any attack, will be met with a retaliatory response of the same magnitude. That means if you launch non-WMD missiles at Israel, or Afghanistan, or Iraq or anyone, the U.S. will do the same; if they launch even a ground probe over someone's border, the U.S. and anyone who wants to joine us, will do the same; if they launch a chimical, bio or nuclear strike of any sort in the region, the U.S. will retaliate the same.

Back to the Cold War? Not a good idea, I believe - unless it is a truly multilateral effort. If it is just the US, it will be viewed as a US versus Islam situation, and we cannot afford that.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
-It's time to double the U.S. Presence in Iraq, if it can be done; and increase our presence to the east in Afghanistan.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
-These forces should be there NOT to police Iraq, but put in Eastern Iraq, along with as many airbases as possible, as a warning to Iran, and as a barrier to any incursions westward by Iran, if they even have such ideas.

The problem, my friend, is that

a) Where do you want the US to get more troops? Between Bush 1 and Clinton, the Army has been gutted, it's already stretched way, way too thin, the Air Force hasn't the lift capability anywhere near what it needs.

b) Where is the rest of the world on this? Where are the grand Armies of the EU? Well, I know where the UK Army is, but where are the Germans? French? Spanish? I'll tell you - waiting, once again, on the US to make the first move rather than taking on any of the risk themselves.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
The only way we can commit more troops to Iraq would be to pull our forces out of South Korea.

Very bad call. And, FYI, there is already a Brigade of the 2ID in Iraq.

I'd love to say, lets get 'em, but the fact it, there's nothing left to "get 'em" with! We've been complacent, to a tragic degree, in that the politicians (most of them never having served in a uniform) and the general public and allowed our military to be gutted and effective on only one front . . . it's a self-inflicted wound.

The short sighted politicians, afraid to make the hard call and maintain for a strong national defense have allowed this to happen. Rather than standing up when there were calls for military cuts, they acquiesced and now we - the US - face an inability to be militarily effective in the long haul. Sure, we're dynamite at the gate, but our endurance is now limited.

Where are the EU Members standing on this.

Pleasantly, I see Thorben, someone I usually disagree with, seems to be rather concerned! Is it because this issue is in the EU's own back yard?

Is the saber rattling okay now because of the potential threat to the EU and European geography? Do some of my EU friends see this threat a bit differently now that it's in their ball park?

[Edited 2006-01-29 05:00:44]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Very bad call. And, FYI, there is already a Brigade of the 2ID in Iraq.

It's high time to wean South Korea off the 2ID and USAFK. They need to stand on their own and assume the responsibility for their own defense.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
The short sighted politicians, afraid to make the hard call and maintain for a strong national defense have allowed this to happen. Rather than standing up when there were calls for military cuts, they acquiesced and now we - the US - face an inability to be militarily effective in the long haul. Sure, we're dynamite at the gate, but our endurance is now limited.

Agree 100%. Bush 41 and Clinton couldn't wait to cash in on the "peace dividend" but no one made a similar reduction in the overseas deployments of US troops.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12427
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:57 pm

I think what Iran and N. Korea are looking for is MONEY - nothing but extortion from the USA and some EC countries. They believe the USA and other countries severely took advantage of them, taking huge amounts of their wealth for little money to them and damaged them as to trade, occupation and support of undemocratic leaders. Probably if we relieved them of most of the sanctions some countries have against them, if we paid them 5-10 Billion USD a year for several years, and withdraw our support of their 'enemies' (Israel as to Iran, S. Korea as to N. Korea) they would stop their programs. Of course, the USA and UK cannot do this as it would be against our laws and policy. Also they would expand their extortion to try to break us and they would never be satisfied. Until we really get energy independence such extortion will continue to theatern the world.
 
ANCFlyer
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
It's high time to wean South Korea off the 2ID and USAFK. They need to stand on their own and assume the responsibility for their own defense.

While I don't necessarily disagree about weaning South Korea off the 2ID tit, I believe now is not exactly the time. The North Korean Government, Mr. Kim Jong Il, is more a threat now than the North Koreans have been in two decades. All the posturing and 'saber rattling' during the 80s and 90s was exactly that. Now, however, there appears to a more credible threat there. I believe the 2ID - fact the entire II Corps - presence is necessary, for now.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Back to the Cold War? Not a good idea, I believe - unless it is a truly multilateral effort.

Maybe not, but if Iran keeps up this pressure, there may not be a choice. And I agree, it should be a multi-national effort: Europe, Russia, anyone in the ME with any common sense. It has to be multi-national simply for the forces that would be needed, if necessary, to invade a nation the size of Iran. You're probably talking about a force of half a million-just to begin with, along with 6 or 7 carrier groups, and squadrons of aircraft. I agree with you.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
a) Where do you want the US to get more troops? Between Bush 1 and Clinton, the Army has been gutted, it's already stretched way, way too thin, the Air Force hasn't the lift capability anywhere near what it needs.

I agree with you, which is why it HAS to be a world-wide effort, that will need the support of the UN (sorry, righties-swallow your pride, and accept this as fact right now). If the world relies only on the U.S. Iran is going to do some serious damage somewhere in the next decade or less, I'm convinced of that.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Between Bush 1 and Clinton, the Army has been gutted, it's already stretched way,

And one reason they are, is that Bush II has invaded the wrong nation, and committed forces to the wrong conflict, which, if Iran keeps this up, will have become a catastrophic mistake on his part. Not trying to bash him, really, but that's just how I see it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:13 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Where is the rest of the world on this? Where are the grand Armies of the EU? Well, I know where the UK Army is, but where are the Germans?

a) In Afghanistan, trying with other european forces and the relatively few remaining US troops to slow down the resurgence of the Taliban and the drug lords, who are both gaining ground due to the basically aborted cleanup when US troops were moved to attack Iraq instead.

b) In various balkan regions.

c) In several other places.

Germany has about 6500 troops deployed on international missions at this point.

Other european nations are quite active as well, but obviously they're not focusing on the american obsession du jour.  Yeah sure

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
The short sighted politicians, afraid to make the hard call and maintain for a strong national defense have allowed this to happen. Rather than standing up when there were calls for military cuts, they acquiesced and now we - the US - face an inability to be militarily effective in the long haul. Sure, we're dynamite at the gate, but our endurance is now limited.

Wrong. Your Military isn't the problem. It's your leadership.

You're talking exactly like that guy on the passenger seat of the Ferrari your best friend has just swiped from his father and has driven into a ditch, complaining that you wouldn't still be stuck if that worthless piece of junk just had proper off-road tires and four-wheel-drive. No thought being wasted on the actual cause of the accident, namely pure recklessness on the part of the driver!

Your military would be relatively adequate for the missions it would actually be needed for (if somewhat insufficiently trained for the post battlefield scenarios). No army on the planet would be sufficient to compensate an incompetent and overreaching political leadership.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Is the saber rattling okay now because of the potential threat to the EU and European geography? Do some of my EU friends see this threat a bit differently now that it's in their ball park?

Iran had next to nothing to gain and everything to lose by threatening Europe militarily. It is a concern, but nobody in Europe is frantically buying plastic covers and adhesive tape because of it. Blind militarism doesn't solve problems, it causes them.

If you'd stop to think for a moment, you might realize that the current iranian threat has a lot to do with

a) completely ignoring the massive threat of Pakistan acting like a nuclear arms wholesale dealer, in concert with North Korea

b) jumping an almost completely harmless and ruined Iraq and thus sending the message: "Get your nuclear arms now - it's the only thing keeping the americans from invading!"

c) destroying your own image to the point that even moderate iranians are feeling threatened by US forces on both their borders with Afghanistan and Iraq, basically closing ranks even with the more loony ones of their leaders.

d) with the Iraq invasion losing ever more ground among the arab populations so even(!) Iran has a chance of presenting itself as the one islamic nation in the region that actually kicks amercian butt in revenge. Petty? Sure. But you know all too well how that works, don't you?
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Germany has about 6500 troops deployed on international missions at this point.

Ohhh, Katy Bar the Door!!!! 6500 Troops!!! Holy shit, almost a whole Brigade! Can you stand it?  sarcastic 

I know there are European troops out there doing great things Klaus . . . that was not my point, I guess you know that of course.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Wrong. Your Military isn't the problem. It's your leadership.

Did you gloss over these parts of my comments???

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Between Bush 1 and Clinton, the Army has been gutt



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
in that the politicians (most of them never having served in a uniform) and the general public and allowed our military to be gutted



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
The short sighted politicians, afraid to make the hard call

I never blamed the military for it's current state. So, wrong go back and read my posts again.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
r military would be relatively adequate for the missions it would actually be needed for (if somewhat insufficiently trained for the post battlefield scenarios).

Dead wrong. Dead frickin' wrong. The vision to be able to fight a war on two fronts and maintain a significant, effective presence in yet a third location was utter bullshit. The resources didn't match the vision. Smoke and mirrors by politicians in civilian attire and uniforms alike - more concerned with keeping their jobs and cushy DC townhouses than real "soldiering".

It was a  redflag  vision in the late 80s, early 90s and it's proven to remain a  redflag  vision into the 21st Century.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
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German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:29 pm

What is an ABC weapon?
What's fair is fair.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: German Intelligence Source:Iran Building ABC Weapo

Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:44 pm

"ABC weapons" is often used in german for referring to Atomic, Biological and Chemical weapons.
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:09 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
I'm going to shock a lot of people here.

The more I hear coming out of Iran-the nuke talk, the talk of destroying Israel, the talk that they can see a world without the U.S. The further and further they get into this Islamic Miltiancy, I've come to think the following:

-It's time to double the U.S. Presence in Iraq, if it can be done; and increase our presence to the east in Afghanistan.

-These forces should be there NOT to police Iraq, but put in Eastern Iraq, along with as many airbases as possible, as a warning to Iran, and as a barrier to any incursions westward by Iran, if they even have such ideas.

-Make it absolutely clear to them that they will be welcome at any negotiations on their WMD program, that the door is open to discussion, but that ANY attack launched in the region-against Israel, against Iraq and American troops-any attack, will be met with a retaliatory response of the same magnitude. That means if you launch non-WMD missiles at Israel, or Afghanistan, or Iraq or anyone, the U.S. will do the same; if they launch even a ground probe over someone's border, the U.S. and anyone who wants to joine us, will do the same; if they launch a chimical, bio or nuclear strike of any sort in the region, the U.S. will retaliate the same.

Iran and it's belligerance is becoming an increasing worry, and my worry is, as it has been all along, that the U.S. picked on the wrong country in the region when it came to ability to threaten others. Iraq was a beaten, run-down nation; Iran is a nation ran by crazy men, far more dangerous to the outside world than Saddam ever was.

But it can't just be the U.S. in such an effort. Europe, Russia, the Arab nations in the region (who, if they don't realize that these fools are as big a threat to them as to Israel, they're fools), need to make clear that Iran will be leveled, if need be, to eliminate the potential threat they pose. No pre-emption here, let Iran hang themselves.

Interesting opinion. Some will thankfully say that you hold no elected office.

As for Iran, let them make one mistake. The U.S. will be ready. Europe won't, (they don't have the guts)and Israel will be welcoming home their jets as they land after flying multiple preemptive atomic bomb runs.

Time for the world (are you listening Europe) to start teaching hard lessons to regimes that even speak the nonsense Iran dares to say.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 20):

As for Iran, let them make one mistake.

and what do you think that "mistake" is going to be??

Not to mention, you will be waiting a loooooong time........rhetoric and all, they know what they are doing.....

The Iranian regime doesn't operate like Saddam Hussain.....Saddam was a moron..the Iranian Government is on top of things...
"Up the Irons!"
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:32 pm

I will let our leaders determine what that mistake will be and not some soft shoe birkenstock liberal from San Francisco or the like decide. That I can assure you.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
the Iranian Government is on top of things...

Oh, you think? The world thought Hitler was "on top of things" too.

LOL So sad.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Ohhh, Katy Bar the Door!!!! 6500 Troops!!! Holy shit, almost a whole Brigade! Can you stand it?

Actually, for an army which for decades had a priority of not being too threatening and which is still in transition from a purely territorial tank-centered defense force, with only a part of its troops being volunteers who can be sent abroad, that's not too bad at all.

You were presenting the typical short-sighted ignorant rant as if you didn't know better. But you do, if I'm not mistaken. So why posting this kind of nonsense?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Wrong. Your Military isn't the problem. It's your leadership.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Did you gloss over these parts of my comments???

You're still running after the illusion that your problems could be fixed by changing the military. But an ill-conceived and badly planned war can't be salvaged by having better troops!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Dead wrong. Dead frickin' wrong. The vision to be able to fight a war on two fronts and maintain a significant, effective presence in yet a third location was utter bullshit. The resources didn't match the vision.

No. That vision simply did not imply screwing up the entire global strategic situation at the same time. When you're destroying the fundamental assumptions, you cannot expect the conclusions to still hold true.


You're again shying away from the central point: The Iraq invasion and the way it was prepared, pushed through and executed was a bad idea.

It's not enough to "support the troops" - actually taking good care of them requires sound political decisions about peace or war, with an alert and critical public keeping the leadership on their toes. But every single one of those safeguards has failed on the political side, even though there were plenty of opportunities to recognize the consequences (even with almost exact predictions of the outcome we now see).


That was what I'm talking about in the other thread (Airliners.net Non Aviation: US Troops Demoralized?). But apparently nobody cared (or dared) to go near those thoughts.
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:38 pm

We have to think very carefully. Is a policy of escalation the right step? Is it something we want to be a part of right now? Lets think like police do, escalation is the last thing that they want to deal with.
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
You're still running after the illusion that your problems could be fixed by changing the military. But an ill-conceived and badly planned war can't be salvaged by having better troops!

Not the answer at all. The fact remains, the military is last resort at the ultimate type of diplomacy. I know that. Problem is, IMO, in the US anyway - we're simply out of military to use. We don't need better troops, Klaus my friend - we've got the best damned military on the planet . . . what we need is MORE of them! I'm under no illusions here. The military is broken - it's end strength is too low, it's equipment is inadequate, the mission undefined. That is what needs to be corrected - 'fixed' as you put it.

In the 80s and early 90s had we kept end strength at reasonable levels, and continued with equipment procurement that could have kept pace with the vision of the 2 conflict philosophy coming out of the Five Sided Funny Farm we'd not be facing an exhaustion problem amongst our forces. We'd not be facing problems keeping equipment on the battlefield.

I don't blame the military for that - I blame politics - short sighted politicians that refuse to listen to military leadership. Short sighted politicians with no military experience making military decisions.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
Actually, for an army which for decades had a priority of not being too threatening and which is still in transition from a purely territorial tank-centered defense force, with only a part of its troops being volunteers who can be sent abroad, that's not too bad at all.

You were presenting the typical short-sighted ignorant rant as if you didn't know better. But you do, if I'm not mistaken. So why posting this kind of nonsense?

Simply responding in kind - rather took it that you didn't think I was giving any respect at all the the German (and other EU) military units. I have a great deal of respect for them - especially the German tank crews, who were always top notch.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
You're again shying away from the central point: The Iraq invasion and the way it was prepared, pushed through and executed was a bad idea.

Disagree. The invasion was reasonably textbook. Other than our inability to use the 4thID, the balance of the invasion was excellent. What was - and remains - screwed up is the occupation and after-planning. I'm still convinced there wasn't a followon plan. Seat of the pants operating has not proven effective.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
It's not enough to "support the troops" - actually taking good care of them requires sound political decisions about peace or war, with an alert and critical public keeping the leadership on their toes. But every single one of those safeguards has failed on the political side, even though there were plenty of opportunities to recognize the consequences (even with almost exact predictions of the outcome we now see).

Agreed. I think we're in agreement anyway. I haven't blamed the military for position - in fact I blame the politicians and the public. All of the "reduce the military - peace dividend" idiots are witnessing the result of that thought process.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
That was what I'm talking about in the other thread (Airliners.net Non Aviation: US Troops Demoralized?). But apparently nobody cared (or dared) to go near those thoughts.

I'll go back and revisit that thread . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC

Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 22):
I will let our leaders determine what that mistake will be and not some soft shoe birkenstock liberal from San Francisco or the like decide. That I can assure you.

better to err on the side of caution than invading a country on a false pretense then lie to the American public. sarcastic 

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 22):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
the Iranian Government is on top of things...

Oh, you think? The world thought Hitler was "on top of things" too.

LOL So sad.

oh really?

comparing Hitler to Iran is a bit of a stretch......Hitler's regime was able to use the Gestapo, SS, Reichssicherheitshauptam, and propaganda to imbue and force the millions of Germans (especially the youth) for a political cause which the leaders believed in....hence wide-scale support from its people...

Unlike pre-WWII Germany, the current Iranian population, much of it younger than the Revolution of 1979 don't particularily like this current regime....and could care less of what the old hard-liners believe in....most want to do what every other 20 something want to do..go to a good college, get a good job, have a good family, and travel....nothing different from someone in the United States or Europe..

now if one begins to see rallies as big as the Reichsparteitag...then maybe one should start getting a bit concerned...

pathetic to see how people live in constant fear and paranoia


and yes, the Iranian Govt are on top of things, i.e.-such as the way they intelligently built their nuclear facilities (unlike saddam's govt)
"Up the Irons!"
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
"ABC weapons" is often used in german for referring to Atomic, Biological and Chemical weapons.

Oh, I see. The equivalent here would be NBC -- nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons.

Thank you for the kind answer.
What's fair is fair.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:33 pm

Iran has enough intellectual and technical capabilities to produce weapons that would present a serious threat to the region.To that respect ,Bush invaded the wrong country- but an invasion of Iran would be logistically impossible ! The country is too big,the population better educated than the average Iraqi,there are more de-centralized centers of military power,infrastructure and energy.
Iranian troops would be a different enemy than Saddam's troops and at the current state the country already possesses the capability to strike missile-attacks on neighboring counties.Should Iran then burn it's own oil-wells in order to prevent them to fall into enemy hands -what a nightmare scenario.
So the only solution is a negotiated settlement -strategically and tactically an invasion is impossible.It would require more than 700.000 troops- no UN resolution would open the door for that kind of scenario.Also impossible to implement logistics for that kind of theater,since China and Russia would veto any such moves.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: German Intelligence Source: Iran Building ABC Weapons

Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
In Afghanistan, trying with other european forces and the relatively few remaining US troops to slow down the resurgence of the Taliban and the drug lords, who are both gaining ground due to the basically aborted cleanup when US troops were moved to attack Iraq instea

I do believe that the UK "volunteered" to handle eradication in Iraq. I don't believe our troops were ever slated for eradication duties.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Dead wrong. Dead frickin' wrong. The vision to be able to fight a war on two fronts and maintain a significant, effective presence in yet a third location was utter bullshit. The resources didn't match the vision. Smoke and mirrors by politicians in civilian attire and uniforms alike - more concerned with keeping their jobs and cushy DC townhouses than real "soldiering".

It was a vision in the late 80s, early 90s and it's proven to remain a vision into the 21st Century.

The two front war idea was stupid when it was developed by REMF's in the 80's, and remains a stupid idea today.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
It's not enough to "support the troops" - actually taking good care of them requires sound political decisions about peace or war, with an alert and critical public keeping the leadership on their toes. But every single one of those safeguards has failed on the political side, even though there were plenty of opportunities to recognize the consequences (even with almost exact predictions of the outcome we now see).

The failure you describe has been wonderfully bipartisan. The failure of Bush 43 with regard to Iraq is not that we invaded, but that we didn't have a well-thought out plan for what we'd do after we invaded and toppled Saddam. His predecessors, however, were just as guilty in not supporting the troops throught their cashing in of the "peace dividend" while maintaining the same - if not increased - optempo overseas.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography

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