AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:15 am

In view of some of the fears expressed by some Americans as to a recent sea change in American political values, I would like to make sure that our foreign friends do not develop the misimpression that this country has metamorphosed into the positively medieval in its social value system.

If one is concerned with gay marriage, the truth is that this country is not friendly to that concept. However, on a social level, the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

In fact, it is possibly because of that acceptance that some conservative activists have used the issue of marriage as a "stopgap" against further "encroachment" of the "gay lifestyle" on American society.

In my view, there has been far too much polemic, on both the left and the right, concerning gay rights. To some significant degree, the issue of gayness is as much a biomedical fact as it is a legal concern, and hence it is in the interstices of law and medicine that the rights of gays are implicated.

The Constitution does not enshrine any particular view of genetic dispositions, but it does prevent certain forms of invidious discrimination, and a strong argument can, and has been, made, that neither homosexual predisposition nor acts should be the province of public regulation. Nevertheless, that this is so, and that the courts have supported the legality of homosexual conduct, is increasingly obscure, particularly in the eyes of some of our foreign critics.

To those who fear that the United States is on its way to a Puritan way of life, and that soon the dystopia of Atwood in The Handmaid's Tale will afflict all manner of private conduct, I say: Let's get real. There is rhetoric, and then there is reality. One should not be mistaken for the other.

[Edited 2006-01-31 18:19:57]
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
the truth is that this country is not friendly to that concept. However, on a social level, the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

In another thread, you've stated that liberalism has failed, and the country has become more conservative.

So which is it, or are these topics just copy/pasted from all over the internet without any regard to how they appear to lack any cohesion of voice?
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
the truth is that this country is not friendly to that concept. However, on a social level, the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

In another thread, you've stated that liberalism has failed, and the country has become more conservative.

I did not say in that thread that liberalism in general has failed, and when attention was brought to the question of whether I claimed that it had, I specifically stated the opposite. I stated, and reiterated, that it is strange to me that conservatives accuse the educational system of being liberal, and yet the country has become more conservative. I further stated and reiterated that it may be a specific failure of liberalism to propagate itself that is of at least tangential interest -- a fact that belies conservative attempts, incidentally, to demonize our educational system.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
So which is it, or are these topics just copy/pasted from all over the internet without any regard to how they appear to lack any cohesion of voice?

All statements I post here without attribution to others are written by me -- no one else. I do not "cut and paste" the words of anyone else and claim them to be mine.

[Edited 2006-01-31 18:23:49]
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
yet the country has become more conservative



Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

How do you reconcile these two statements?
International Homo of Mystery
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:26 am

IMO gay rights are simply a matter of civil rights and should be analyzed under the same scrutiny as any other fundamental right. While I don't believe government should force churches to recognize marriage between any individuals they don't want to (be that gay, divorced, too tall, fat, etc. . .) I believe that the equal protection clauses of the 5th and 14th amendments should protect the legal rights of homosexuals on bar with heterosexual.

I see no compelling government interest in denying a citizen a tax deduction or the right to make health care decisions for their partner on the basis of whether or not the partner has a penis or a vagina.

All the rest is just noise that the right and left throw up there to obfuscate the issue.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I would like to make sure that our foreign friends do not have the misimpression that this country is becoming positively medieval in its social value system.

It is not a misimpression, my friend. In many areas of the nation, it is fact-the religious right wants to take this nation back 300 years in it's social value system. They want their faith to be the law of the land; they want to keep gays as second-class citizens; they want to invade the privacy of others and put the government in your bedroom and private lives (but not in your wallet, which is fine with me).

It is medieval, in my view.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
If one is concerned with gay marriage, the truth is that this country is not friendly to that concept. However, on a social level, the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

If that were true, then you and the right wouldn't be so afraid of gays marrying. We are not a nation that has the Holy Bible as our law-it's the Constitution that guides us. Maybe the Bible says being gay is a sin, but again, I do not take my civil orders from the Bible. Another sign of them wanting to take us back in time-making the Bible in national affairs superior to the Constitution, and I don't buy that.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
To those who fear that the United States is on its way to a Puritan way of life, and that soon the dystopia of Atwood in The Handmaid's Tale will afflict all manner of private conduct, I say: Let's get real. There is rhetoric, and then there is reality. One should not be mistaken for the other.

The reality is you seemingly can't tell the difference.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
satx
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
I stated, and reiterated, that it is strange to me that conservatives accuse the educational system of being liberal, and yet the country has become more conservative.

Even now, as they control all three brances of the federal government, the conservatives still find time to blame the liberals. Just like all these Christians find time to blame the non-Christians.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
IMO gay rights are simply a matter of civil rights and should be analyzed under the same scrutiny as any other fundamental right. While I don't believe government should force churches to recognize marriage between any individuals they don't want to (be that gay, divorced, too tall, fat, etc. . .) I believe that the equal protection clauses of the 5th and 14th amendments should protect the legal rights of homosexuals on bar with heterosexual.

I see no compelling government interest in denying a citizen a tax deduction or the right to make health care decisions for their partner on the basis of whether or not the partner has a penis or a vagina.

All the rest is just noise that the right and left throw up there to obfuscate the issue.

Best post you ever made, Pope. I agree with you 100%. Well said.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
How do you reconcile these two statements?

With great delicacy, said the cook to the lobster.  Wink

The country has, indeed, become much more conservative, but acceptance of gays has risen. It is, to use a much-abused phrase, the exception that proves the rule.
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
The country has, indeed, become much more conservative, but acceptance of gays has risen.

You can invalidate either or both of your arguments. Pick one.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
If that were true, then you and the right wouldn't be so afraid of gays marrying.

Fear is used to manipulate people. I'm a Catholic who respects my God and my religion, however I disagree with my church when it comes to this issue. The smoke screen of the sanctity of marriage disappeared for me once the Catholic church granted someone I knew an annulment after 20 years of marriage and three kids. I'm happily married to my wife an I assure you that we drawn neither strength nor support from the fact that our next door neighbors are married. If they were gay, more power to them but it simply doens't affect me.

Fear is used by the those on the right like Rove to manipulate voters (quite effectively) into course of action that favor his cause. Fear can only exist in the absence of information. I think many more people would be willing to educate themselves about the issue if the positions were presented in a less confrontational manner. The extreme left ruins it for everyone as does the extreme right. I really believe that the middle 70% of this country believes in the same fundamental things.

Every father I know wants a better life for their children than the one they had. Every father I know wants clean air, clean water, and safe streets. Every father I know wants their children to grow up with opportunity. Instead of allowing ourselves to be polarized by our difference in how to accomplish those goals, we should focus on the goals themselves.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Best post you ever made, Pope. I agree with you 100%. Well said.

Alito confirmed and Falcon agrees with me. Hell must be about to freeze over.  Wink

Just kidding. Thanks.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
You can invalidate either or both of your arguments. Pick one.

That's a simplistic and erroneous argument.

There is evidence that global warming causes extremes in weather, including colder winters. Does the existence of colder winters invalidate the existence of global warming?

Neither, then, does wider acceptance of gays implicate the lack of a wider trend toward conservatism in general.
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 12):
Neither, then, does wider acceptance of gays implicate the lack of a wider trend toward conservatism in general.

Oh boy, this is going to take an entire team of psychiatrists to work out.
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
Oh boy, this is going to take an entire team of psychiatrists to work out.

Well, if you can suggest one....

 Wink
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):
Well, if you can suggest one

I wouldn't be so unkind ... to the psychiatrists.  Wink
International Homo of Mystery
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
In view of some of the fears expressed by some Americans as to a recent sea change in American political values, I would like to make sure that our foreign friends do not develop the misimpression that this country has metamorphosed into the positively medieval in its social value system.

you are too kind to us cave-dwelling socialists.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
If one is concerned with gay marriage, the truth is that this country is not friendly to that concept. However, on a social level, the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

could have fooled me.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):

To those who fear that the United States is on its way to a Puritan way of life, and that soon the dystopia of Atwood in The Handmaid's Tale will afflict all manner of private conduct, I say: Let's get real. There is rhetoric, and then there is reality. One should not be mistaken for the other.

and how many more of these lead-lined American domestic politics speeches are you going to make?

Here's a little tip. Airliners.net is NOT a US site. Johnny Foreigner is not here on sufferance, so for the love of God enough with the dirges already.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 16):
Here's a little tip. Airliners.net is NOT a US site. Johnny Foreigner is not here on sufferance, so for the love of God enough with the dirges already.

 checkmark  Hear, hear!
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 16):
Here's a little tip. Airliners.net is NOT a US site. Johnny Foreigner is not here on sufferance, so for the love of God enough with the dirges already.

WhiteHatter, as you may realize, there are many topics here that might be considered parochial to one particular nation, and yet this does not stop people from other countries from posting concerning them. If I recall correctly, you recently expressed some doubt in the Military Aviation and Space forum on this very site as to whether Members were being fair to denials of the American landings on the Moon in the 1960's and 1970's. As I recall, you posted a number of messages saying that we should be open minded concerning such rather ludicrous claims concerning, I might add, a largely American effort, although you did not say that you believed any conspiracy theory against the reality of those landings. (See: Did Nasa Put Men On The Moon? (by Thowman Sep 20 2005 in Military Aviation & Space Flight) )

And, likewise, we've seen here a friendly reception to topics concerning football (European style -- e.g., Robbie Fowler Signs For Liverpool! (by Cornish Jan 27 2006 in Non Aviation)#ID1090464 ), the Australian flag, and so forth -- all as it should be.

Finally, I ask that you do not consider me in the category of critics of European countries for being "socialist", as I have the utmost respect for Europeans' ability to determine for themselves what government services they desire, and how to pay for them.

[Edited 2006-01-31 22:44:59]
What's fair is fair.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 7410
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:03 am

It is illegal in Kenya and a number of other places. I saw it on several Foreign Affairs websites while looking for visa information.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
IMO gay rights are simply a matter of civil rights and should be analyzed under the same scrutiny as any other fundamental right. While I don't believe government should force churches to recognize marriage between any individuals they don't want to (be that gay, divorced, too tall, fat, etc. . .) I believe that the equal protection clauses of the 5th and 14th amendments should protect the legal rights of homosexuals on bar with heterosexual.

I see no compelling government interest in denying a citizen a tax deduction or the right to make health care decisions for their partner on the basis of whether or not the partner has a penis or a vagina.

All the rest is just noise that the right and left throw up there to obfuscate the issue.

Not a word here I disagree with, and you've put it in some of the most succinct terms I've seen. For what it's worth (not much) welcome to my RU list.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
However, on a social level, the acceptance of gays is now wider than ever before.

While I think the majority of Americans really don't care about my sexual orientation one way or the other, I think the 'acceptance' you refer to is more an overshadowing of the debate on our basic rights by the mega debate of gay marriage. If the focus wasn't on preventing and/or rolling back any kind of gay unions, the far right policy makers that are currently shaping so much of our public policy would be hacking away at the current or proposed non-discrimination laws on the books. A perfect example is the state of Washington. After a 29 year fight, sexual orientation was finally added to the law banning discrimination in Washington. Before the bill was even signed by the governor, a petition for both a referendum AND an initiative was submitted, to not only repeal the amendment, but to ban further consideration. That doesn't feel like acceptance to me.

That's not to say we haven't come a long way. Twenty years ago I was very careful to play the 'pronoun game' at work, making sure I never referred to my partner by gender or name. But now I don't think about it, in either social or work situations. I cherish that change. But in the last few years (six to be exact) there has been a concerted effort to role back much of what we have gained. Unfortunately we've served up the specter of gay marriage as the perfect weapon for the far right to scare the masses with. As Pope noted above, fear is used to manipulate, and right now its being used masterfully.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 20):
Before the bill was even signed by the governor, a petition for both a referendum AND an initiative was submitted, to not only repeal the amendment, but to ban further consideration. That doesn't feel like acceptance to me.

I think that such referenda are the work of special interest groups on the right, rather than reflective of a broad societal sentiment against gays today.

In most cases, I am a libertarian when it comes to what consenting adults do, regardless of their sexual orientation, and within reason, within their own homes. An extension of that is that public instances where the corollaries of such behavior should be -- again, subject to the rule of reason -- tolerated if irrelevant to any legitimate purpose of society. By this I mean, for example, that if two gays want to emulate the role of mother and father in public with their adopted child, there should be no particular offense taken by such behavior.

I would add, however, that public displays of affection between gays is still somewhat beyond what society is prepared to tolerate, for now.

None of this is to say that there does not remain a deep-seated prejudice against gays on the part of many individuals, and particularly traditional, older people, who were raised in a different era.

[Edited 2006-02-01 01:44:32]
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):
I would add, however, that public displays of affection between gays is still somewhat beyond what society is prepared to tolerate, for now.

Maybe you should consider whether it is "you" or "society" when defining mores for the global "we".
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
Maybe you should consider whether it is "you" or "society" when defining mores for the global "we".

There is no "global 'we'", however. Even Canada is far different from the United States when it comes to official attitudes toward homosexual marriage, although the difference is less pronounced when it comes to their respective societies.

Thus, your asking whether it is in fact my prejudices that I project upon society is somewhat misplaced; I do not claim to speak for society, but only myself in observing what I see of it.
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
your asking whether it is in fact my prejudices that I project upon society is somewhat misplaced

No, I can read. You made a statement, not an opinion. (Now qualified after you were called on it.) You didn't say "I don't believe society is ready ...", for example.
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 24):
No, I can read. You made a statement, not an opinion. (Now qualified after you were called on it.) You didn't say "I don't believe society is ready ...", for example.

Then let me clarify that it is indeed, my opinion of what society is prepared to tolerate.
What's fair is fair.
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):
I think that such referenda are the work of special interest groups on the right, rather than reflective of a broad societal sentiment against gays today.

And yet the expectation is that they will get the measures on the ballot, which takes the signature of a significant number of the state's voters. That takes a lot more support than just 'special interests groups to the right'

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):
I would add, however, that public displays of affection between gays is still somewhat beyond what society is prepared to tolerate, for now.

Sorry bud, all your words of tolerance go out the window when you say things like the above. You personally may not be ready for it, but in my experience (and in this case I'd say it's more than yours), society hasn't had an aneurism when I hug my partner or give him a peck on the cheek. Sure I'd be risking my health doing that in some neighborhoods, but I'd risk my health just being in some neighborhoods.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
I see no compelling government interest in denying a citizen a tax deduction or the right to make health care decisions for their partner on the basis of whether or not the partner has a penis or a vagina.

A partner can make decisions on your behalf provided you fill out and sign a durable power of attorney for healthcare form, nominating your partner as your surrogate decision maker.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 27):
A partner can make decisions on your behalf provided you fill out and sign a durable power of attorney for healthcare form, nominating your partner as your surrogate decision maker.

Its a fact that for single sex couples, almost all the rights and privileges enjoyed by married couples can be gained by other legal maneuvers. But why should I need to spend hours and hours (and many $$) with a lawyer filing document after document, when an official state acknowledgement of my union would suffice, as it does for everyone else. Additionally, many of the constitutional amendments that are being propagated attempt to ban even these agreements, usually for same sex couples only. Bottom line, separate but 'equal' was ruled false long ago. I'm not asking any church or religion to bless or even recognize my union. I do expect the state to treat me the same as every other citizen.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:45 am

I expect there is a certain A.netter who is currently on a brief hiatus and she is just itching to begin posting on this thread. The pearls of wisdom and benevolence that will flow from her keyboard will certainly set certain things, um...shall we say "straight".

 Wink
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
TG992
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2001 12:03 pm

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:20 am

Verbosity and a thesaurus are no substitutes for intelligence.
-
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2884
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Nordair (Reply 29):
I expect there is a certain A.netter who is currently on a brief hiatus and she is just itching to begin posting on this thread.

I miss her!
.......
 
pwm2txlhopper
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:40 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
It is not a misimpression, my friend. In many areas of the nation, it is fact-the religious right wants to take this nation back 300 years in it's social value system

Nah, try more like 40 or 50 years....
 
Jalto27R
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):

Your opening post in this thread sounds like the end of my 10 page papers in US History Class. Just a bunch of BS, spread out in paragraph form to fill up the paper. You are trying to hard to sound smart....just get to the point!

Mike
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 26):
Sorry bud, all your words of tolerance go out the window when you say things like the above

Then your experience is different from mine. Differences of opinion based on different experiences of what society is likely to tolerate are to be expected.

I'm glad that you feel that society wouldn't have a meltdown based on your kissing your partner. However, invariably, where there are two men holding hands in public, I have observed strangers surrounding them exhibit some discomfort.

If you disagree, that is your right. But it is not correct to accuse me of bias simply because my observations are different from yours.
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
However, invariably, where there are two men holding hands in public, I have observed strangers surrounding them exhibit some discomfort.

Perhaps you should define where this occurs. Ten years ago I planted a big one on a then boyfriend at the boarding gate in an airport in central Ohio, and nobody so much as flinched.
International Homo of Mystery
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
I have observed strangers surrounding them exhibit some discomfort.

Men showing affection still isn't common in many places, so yes, it draws attention. But guess what, as it becomes more common, fewer and fewer react. I have invariably observed some people become uncomfortable at many behaviors. It doesn't imply that society isn't ready to accept those behaviors, it means those people have issues that they are projecting onto others.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
If you disagree, that is your right. But it is not correct to accuse me of bias simply because my observations are different from yours.

No its not - what I was calling you on was your statement. When made, and what I was responding to, was presented as a blanket statement of fact vs. an opinion. Since I posted, you've clarified that its just your opinion. And in this case we have differing ones - fair enough.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 30):
Verbosity and a thesaurus are no substitutes for intelligence.

It's a good thing, then, that I neither own nor use a thesaurus.  

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
Perhaps you should define where this occurs. Ten years ago I planted a big one on a then boyfriend at the boarding gate in an airport in central Ohio, and nobody so much as flinched

It's not so much at airports, where, by the way, I haven't seen it done, but at such ordinary places such as a local mall, where there are likely to be children about. Parents are very protective of their children and do not want to expose them to what they fear -- yes, fear, rationally or not -- may be a "corrupting" influence on their impressionable minds. Note that I do not endorse the word "corrupting", but use it simply to denote what these parents may feel, rightly or wrongly.

[Edited 2006-02-01 04:10:31]
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
but use it simply to denote what these parents may feel, rightly or wrongly

How do you know what they're feeling? (Maybe they're jealous!)
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
How do you know what they're feeling? (Maybe they're jealous!)

It's because I know several parents, from various socio-economic backgrounds, and from conversations with them, it is universally true that they wish to protect their children from certain influences.

There are also certain heuristics in which one can engage based on common sense, and it is rational to believe that, as children are precious to parents, parents will ordinarily act to protect them.

Incidentally, I think that the explanatory power of common sense is often undervalued. It is common sense that suggests most of the actions we take in ordinary life. It is common sense, for example, that one should bundle up on a cold day. One certainly doesn't have to indulge in a causal exegesis to reach for a coat when it's snowing outside. Nor does it seem proper to torture common sense and posit that parents who try to shield their children from what they deem "corrupting" influences are secretly jealous.

Is it possible that they are jealous? Yes. But that would be exceptional, from a common sense point of view. Possibility is as possibility does.

[Edited 2006-02-01 04:16:23]
What's fair is fair.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 39):
It's because I know several parents, from various socio-economic backgrounds, and from conversations with them, it is universally true that they wish to protect their children from certain influences.

(I realize from past experience this will take 20 questions, but what the hell, it's worth a try again.)

Define geographically where (not a mall, city or state would work), and in what capacity did you converse with them about their interests in protecting their children from "certain" influences, presumably seeing two men or two women holding hands in public.
International Homo of Mystery
 
TG992
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2001 12:03 pm

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:18 pm

Just out of interest - do you happen to write the VCR programming manuals on the side? Big grin
-
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
Define geographically where (not a mall, city or state would work), and in what capacity did you converse with them about their interests in protecting their children from "certain" influences, presumably seeing two men or two women holding hands in public.

Just to take an example, any of the malls in suburbia, in Ventura County, for example. If you want a specific example, The Oaks mall in Thousand Oaks, just as an example.

As far as the parents, they are friends and neighbors, and conversations range from casual all the way to formal. For example, at a recent dinner party, the point was made that children are exposed to untoward influences in popular culture, that public displays of affection are far too common, and that "children grow up too quickly". This is purely an example; there are others, of different kinds, but of the same general sentiment.

[Edited 2006-02-01 04:23:03]
What's fair is fair.
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 31):
I miss her!

Of course you do. *pats you on the noggin* I'm sure had you known she'd be gone for a bit, you would have saved the photograph that was posted of her last week.
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
they are friends and neighbors, and conversations range from casual all the way to casual.

Oh well, you didn't say! Casual to casual! Now it's all perfectly clear.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
at a recent dinner party, the point was made that children are exposed to untoward influences in popular culture, that public displays of affection are far too common, and that "children grow up too quickly".

There are 100 other "influences" out there these days beyond Frank and Johnny holding hands at the mall that contribute to the end result you cite.
International Homo of Mystery
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
It's not so much at airports, where, by the way, I haven't seen it done, but at such ordinary places such as a local mall, where there are likely to be children about.

Ah, so its not so much society as select places - where you've personally witnessed it? Well guess what, I've committed PDA in those as well, and not so much as one Gladys Cravits, shielding her child's a innocent eyes, has ever confronted me. It's only my opinion, but I do in fact think you are projecting your biases into this statement. Like I said, there will always be some that are uncomfortable, but I've travelled all over this great big world, and there are very few places in what we consider the western world where I've felt any discomfort or unease for me showing affection to my partner.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 41):
Just out of interest - do you happen to write the VCR programming manuals on the side?  Big grin

No, but years ago, I helped with a project to write a certain piece of proposed legislation. That's almost worse.

 Wink
What's fair is fair.
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
the point was made that children are exposed to untoward influences in popular culture, that public displays of affection are far too common, and that "children grow up too quickly".

And from this you concluded that the problem is same sex hand holding in malls?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 47):
the problem is same sex hand holding in malls?

(Notice how AF has to keep editing his posts? I think all this hand-holding is making him nervous.)  Wink
International Homo of Mystery
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Let's Be Perfectly Clear: Being Gay Is NOT Illegal

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 28):
Its a fact that for single sex couples, almost all the rights and privileges enjoyed by married couples can be gained by other legal maneuvers. But why should I need to spend hours and hours (and many $$) with a lawyer filing document after document, when an official state acknowledgement of my union would suffice, as it does for everyone else.

A Durable power of attorney for Healthcare (DPOA) does not need a lawyer to fill out and sign. The forms are downloadable, or are available from any number of sources. They are a good idea to have filled out regardless of whether you are a married or an nonmarried couple, because they concretely affirm your wishes regarding treatment and whom you want to have make healthcare decisions for you if you cannot make them yourself.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 747400sp and 14 guests