aloges
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Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:41 am

With all the rah-rah going on about "the Danish disrespecting Islam" and "the Arab World being immature", I'd like to remind everyone we really need to differentiate (or keep doing so) between extremists and moderates, especially when Muslims are concerned.

There are some extremists who instigate flag burnings, boycotts and violent riots - but there are far more moderate Muslims who are playing the role of "silent majority", probably watching the rioting in disbelief just like most Europeans and Americans do. I guess they're silent because they are actually annoyed by the cartoons and don't see a reason to oppose protesters.

On the other hand, many people in Denmark, Europe and other nations have criticised the original cartoons for being an untimely and inadequate publication, myself included - but they were no more than 12 drawings in one newspaper. They do not represent Denmark, they do not represent all that people think about Islam and they certainly do not represent any government's stance.

So please: remember we're watching a battle fought by minorities, most Muslims are no flag-burners, most Danes have (probably) never even read Jylland's Posten.

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dtwclipper
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Aloges (Thread starter):
we're watching a battle fought by minorities, most Muslims are no flag-burners,

Two things come to mind,

1. Look at the videos on CNN, sure looks like a lot of people are taking part.

2. Where are the moderates who will condem these action? Anyone? Anyone?
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Klaus
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:58 am

No, the burning of the embassies was done by only a few hundred hooligans, not a lot of people.

The syrian police merely looking on and not doing anything - that is what makes this a diplomatic affront. "Even" democracies protect foreign embassies; It is inconceivable that an autocratic regime like the syrian one wouldn't be able to, especially with police in riot gear being present at the scene!

This should definitely have consequences - not just bilaterally, but also with the entire EU behind Denmark in this matter!
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:02 am

Hi guys.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
1. Look at the videos on CNN, sure looks like a lot of people are taking part.

Yeah, even the innocent little children are taking part! Some Muslims are making their very young kids burn Danish flags for the cameras. They're only about 5 years old without a clue!

It's to bad these Muslim Extremists ever became parents. They are nothing but "Extremely Pathetic!"


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NeilYYZ
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Modera

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Mr Spaceman (Reply 3):
They are nothing but "Extremely Pathetic!"

I would agree 100%. There are ways to protest the cartoons if you feel the need, burning buildings and possibly killing people will do nothing but solidify the views of people that Muslims resort to this kind of violence. Personally I know many muslims, these extremeist groups are not representative, although they are the ones that are constantly reported and getting attention.

- Neil
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greasespot
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:17 am

Lately i am not sure there is much difference.....When they get fired up they seem to mob up and go crazy. How do we looking into the world tell the difference?

GS
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DLKAPA
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Mr Spaceman (Reply 3):
It's to bad these Muslim Extremists ever became parents. They are nothing but "Extremely Pathetic!"

 checkmark 
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yowza
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 5):
Lately i am not sure there is much difference.....When they get fired up they seem to mob up and go crazy. How do we looking into the world tell the difference?

Since they are all so crazy, and so unreasonable and so wrong and we in the west are so right and so noble and gallant maybe we should stop taking their oil  Yeah sure Give me a break.


YOWza
 
dl021
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:39 am

The difference between a moderate and an extremist is probably not the most important thing. What's really troubling is that the majority of the muslim population seems to be cowed by the extremists and unwilling to take a stand against them. It appears that they feel it's easier to accomodate than it is to stamp out the extremist violence, because they don't want the attention to turn on them. An institutional lack of gumption is what I'm thinking is the problem. It's easy to demonstrate against far away people, not so easy to tell the nutcases next door that they are acting like psychos and that it won't be tolerated any more.

THe only other option is to believe that the "silent majority" support the actions of the terrorists and extremists.

Quoting Aloges (Thread starter):
I guess they're silent because they are actually annoyed by the cartoons and don't see a reason to oppose protesters.

And that supports the second option, which I'd rather not have to accept as truth. There is no excuse for allowing such actions.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
1. Look at the videos on CNN, sure looks like a lot of people are taking part.

2. Where are the moderates who will condem these action? Anyone? Anyone?

Damn good question.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
No, the burning of the embassies was done by only a few hundred hooligans, not a lot of people.

Actually reports indicate there were thousands of them, and I'm certain the government was complicit in the actions since they are under fire and looking to draw attention away from their own duplicitous actions that are causing the Syrian people trouble.
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Logan22L
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 7):
maybe we should stop taking their oil

I'm all for that. Maybe we can have fair market trade in the west for innovative fuels. Then we won't have to read threads about Exxon making $10 Billion last quarter. Smart people who can innovate may actually get paid for something. What a concept!
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Nordair
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:49 am

I know many Muslims and although only one of them was not offended by the cartoons, all of them are revulsed by what happened in Syria.

The maniacal may or may not be in the majority worldwide, but they are the ones who get the attention. And that is what they want, of course. But, one cannot paint all Muslims with the same brush.
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:53 am

Maybe the majority is silent because the minority has the guns?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Nordair
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 11):
Maybe the majority is silent because the minority has the guns?

Summed up quite nicely.
 thumbsup 
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:20 pm

What disturbs me most -

With the few exceptions I've seen on A-Net, I don't see any moderate Islamist groups/persons/organization condemning these extremist actions. That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.

They are tacetly condoning this activity by their inaction.

Unacceptable.

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yowza
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 9):
I'm all for that. Maybe we can have fair market trade in the west for innovative fuels. Then we won't have to read threads about Exxon making $10 Billion last quarter. Smart people who can innovate may actually get paid for something. What a concept!

Wow we agree on something. Good start.

YOWza
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.

 checkmark 
"You're either with us, or you're against us".
And I haven't seen very many of them with us.
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Nordair
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:06 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
"You're either with us, or you're against us".

How brilliant.
 Yeah sure
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Klaus
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
Actually reports indicate there were thousands of them,

Not according to the pictures I've seen. There was a crowd immediately around the embassies, but the streets behind them were empty.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
and I'm certain the government was complicit in the actions since they are under fire and looking to draw attention away from their own duplicitous actions that are causing the Syrian people trouble.

It was certainly obvious that the police didn't even try to protect the embassies.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:16 pm

for goodness sakes , there are hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world , and we have seen the (over) reaction of several thousand on TV , that is not a basis on which to decide that 'all' muslims are extremists any more than we should assume that all of the hundreds of millions of Christians in the world are extremists based on the posts of some hard core lunatic Christians here on Anet .

While my own personal feeling is that I would prefer a world free from all religion I have to accept that the vast majority of participants in all religions are just getting on quietly with their lives and causing no harm to me or to anyone else .

The business with the cartoons was rather childish and irresponsible and the over reaction is equally immature ... but what is scarier is the way that many people on both 'sides' seem to actually want to escalate the tensions with wild claims about the 'other side' . It doesn't help anyone to whip up hysteria at either end .
 
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n229nw
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Where are the moderates who will condem these action? Anyone? Anyone?



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
With the few exceptions I've seen on A-Net, I don't see any moderate Islamist groups/persons/organization condemning these extremist actions. That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.

How about EVERY major Muslim organization in the UK, for starters? (and I'm sure most other places too...why do people keep ignoring all thse condemnations?) Do they just not want to see them?

Again I say, we are angry at people for blaming a whole country/continent for the actions of one or a few newspapers. Don't make the same mistake in the other direction: don't demand an apology from people who have nothing to do with the crimes!

Finally, as for certain countries in the Middle East, there is some of the same mentality that bullies people into "supporting our president" here. You have the militant groups attacking moderates who speak out as divisive traitors showing weakness to the enemy. Sound familiar from the American right? Well, in dictatorships it works even better...
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Banco
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 19):
How about EVERY major Muslim organization in the UK, for starters? (and I'm sure most other places too...why do people keep ignoring all thse condemnations?) Do they just not want to see them?

Agreed. And if you see them being interviewed about it, they are getting quite angry about the extremists. We MUST separate the reality from the perception, or it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Quoting N229NW (Reply 19):
How about EVERY major Muslim organization in the UK, for starters? (and I'm sure most other places too...why do people keep ignoring all thse condemnations?) Do they just not want to see them?

Agreed. And if you see them being interviewed about it, they are getting quite angry about the extremists. We MUST separate the reality from the perception, or it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .
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Banco
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .

What would you suggest they do? It's not a discrete society, any more than the rest of the UK is. If a load of white kids go down the High Street smashing up shops does that mean I am not "policing my own"? It isn't a single ethnic or racial group in the UK, any more than the Christians are. The idea that "community leaders" (and what a daft expression that is) can do any more than go on to the media and plea for calm is absurd.
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MigFan
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Modera

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:32 pm

Go Denmark!

UH-60's suck!!!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .

so please explain what else you want them to do about it


I am also confused what you mean about "Are they not policing their own?" - how are they responsible for the actions of other people ( actions they have already condemned ) . when extreme Christians firebomb abortion clinics and normal Christians condemn the actions would you then demand that the normal Christians then go out and do something about it rather than just issuing condemnations
 
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n229nw
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Modera

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Agreed. And if you see them being interviewed about it, they are getting quite angry about the extremists.

Yes...it is only sad that the people who have already decided they hate the whole religion will not register this. They will just keep screaming "where is the condemnation from moderates?"

Then some jerks are going out and buying tee-shirts of people wiping their arses with the Koran just to gratuitiously offend all the moderates because they blame everyone. Those are the same people/mentalities who would be burning down embassies if they happened to be born on the "other side" of this...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .

No. Neither is the Danish Prime Minister responsible for solving the cartoon problem.

Neither is the Pope responsible for solving the problem of Fred Phelps just because they are both Christians.

The "problem" is more violent in this case, but the blame game is the same.

[Edited 2006-02-05 14:54:46]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 25):
Then some jerks are going out and buying tee-shirts of people wiping their arses with the Koran just to gratuitiously offend all the moderates because they blame everyone.

That's assinine . . . throwing gasoline on an out of control fire.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 25):
No. Neither is the Danish Prime Minister responsible for solving the cartoon problem.

But they expect him to apologize? Ridiculous.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 25):
Neither is the Pope responsible for solving the problem of Fred Phelps just because they are both Christians.

I can tell you the names of a few people I know that would solve that issue for the Pope . . . .

All that said . . . .

When was the last time the Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, Mormons . . . etc . . . burned down an embassy?
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n229nw
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
But they expect him to apologize? Ridiculous.

Er...that was my point  wink 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 25):
Then some jerks are going out and buying tee-shirts of people wiping their arses with the Koran just to gratuitiously offend all the moderates because they blame everyone. Those are the same people/mentalities who would be burning down embassies if they happened to be born on the "other side" of this...

as I know this is regarding me I will answer
Rubbish. I would never do anything more than wear an 'offensive' T shirt just cos I felt like it - I am not violent, and I don't get in the way of anyone else living the lives they want to lead. I don't protest with others and I sure as hell don't go around creating trouble.

You neglect to add that I have dozens of shirts that may offend any creed/race/gender/age etc - any manmade barriers/segregations you like. This shirt wasn't bought because of this issue, it was bought before this even began. Remember it is only offensive if you choose to make it offensive - they aren't offensive to me because to me they are all tongue in cheek digs at the way humans treat each other . As I said in another post, we're all the same, and should be treated as such. I tease everyone, I tease myself - it's my thing - let me be, ignore me if you don't like it, most people don't even notice because they are caught up in their own affairs, and aren't interested in what my shirt says. It doesn't affect the way I treat anyone in either my professional or private life - like I said I don't care for the categories that humans love to label.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
qr332
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:57 pm

With us or against us.... America's solution to all the world's problems.

Just because we aren't with you doesn't mean we aren't against "them". I am against the riots, violent protests & burning of bulidings, yet I think people have the right to boycott products if they wish - nothing extremist about that.

And, also, I do not have to apologise for anybody. Everybody is free to do what they wish, I am not responsible for anyone's actions but my own - I disagree with them, but I, like Muslims, will not put myself at risk to stop anything. Imagine shouting that Denmark didn't do anything wrong while they were burning the embassy in Damascus... a person would probably be thrown in there to burn to death.

Finally, a fact nobody wants to understand is that there are 1.3 billion Muslims - and, if we are going to reaaaallllyyy push it, we'll say that a million are for violent protest. That is less than 1% of all Muslims.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
When was the last time the Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, Mormons . . . etc . . . burned down an embassy?

Don't know, but when was the last time Muslims invaded a country because they were thereatened by WMDs?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 29):
Everybody is free to do what they wish, I am not responsible for anyone's actions but my own

provided they stay within the parameters of the law, or are prepared for prosecution because of their actions I agree absolutely.

more Apathy towards others/and their choices would help this issue no end.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
satx
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 29):
With us or against us.... America's solution to all the world's problems.

Unfortunately that often appears to be all too true. Many Americans do indeed see the world in black-and-white. We support those who look like us, ignore those who don't and either overtly or covertly manipulate those who openly challenge us or our interests. That in itself isn't very unique, but we are one of the few countries with the will and the power to let our inherent prejudices dictate our foreign policy.
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legend500
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 29):
Don't know, but when was the last time Muslims invaded a country because they were thereatened by WMDs?

For anyone listening to Iran's latest sabre-rattling, they seem to be threatening to do just that...

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Unfortunately that often appears to be all too true. Many Americans do indeed see the world in black-and-white. We support those who look like us, ignore those who don't and either overtly or covertly manipulate those who openly challenge us or our interests. That in itself isn't very unique, but we are one of the few countries with the will and the power to let our inherent prejudices dictate our foreign policy.

There are also a great many Americans who see the full grey of the world, yet support Denmark in this instance.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 29):
Don't know, but when was the last time Muslims invaded a country because they were thereatened by WMDs?

Not necessary . . . . just sneak into someplace and blow something up . . . . not necessary to invade an entire country . . . . just wait for the right moment; put a bomb in parking garage, fly some planes into a few buildings, blow up a commuter train or two, hijack a ship, blow a plane out of the air, burn down some embassys . . . naaa, no need to invade the whole damn country.

QR . . . I know full well we're talking about extremists committing these acts. What I don't see - regardless of what I've been told - is the utter outrage by the moderates . . . no one policing themselves.

The Syrian police stood by yesterday while that embassy was burned . . . tacet approval in my book.





[Edited 2006-02-06 07:03:33]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jacobin777
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):

With the few exceptions I've seen on A-Net, I don't see any moderate Islamist groups/persons/organization condemning these extremist actions. That, in my view, makes the "moderates" just as extreme.



Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 15):
"You're either with us, or you're against us".
And I haven't seen very many of them with us.



Quoting Nordair (Reply 16):
How brilliant.

couldn't agree with you more......

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Understood . . . and what are they doing about it? Interviews on the telly? Are they not policing their own? Condemnation is fine; it's necessary. It's not solving the problem . . . .



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 24):
I am also confused what you mean about "Are they not policing their own?"

there's nothing confusing...its about as ignorant and crass of a comment as you can get...how are you going to reply to it?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 29):
With us or against us.... America's solution to all the world's problems.

yep.....but that's just the typical hypocrisy many people in this country have......

just as bush didnt want to offend the extreme right (right-wing christians),as he might have lost the presidency.......
"Up the Irons!"
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 33):
no one policing themselves.

I still dont see is what you mean by this ... a large number of muslim groups have publicly condemned the extremists (though of course the media dont find that as interesting to report on as they do that actual protests ) what more do you expect them to do ?

what further lawful actions are you expecting them to take ?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Can We Please Differentiate (Extremists/Moderates)

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 35):
a large number of muslim groups have publicly condemned the extremists

I know that . . . .

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 35):
(though of course the media dont find that as interesting to report on as they do that actual protests )

Isn't that the truth . . . no story in that is there.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 35):
what further lawful actions are you expecting them to take ?

Let's just use Syria for an example . . . the Syrian police stood by while the embassy there was set afire and burned. That is tacet approval in my eyes.

Why didn't the police there stop that action? The simple answer is because they didn't want to. Tacet approval.

Furthermore, most religious groups - especially fanatical ones - don't take a crap wothout permission from their preacher, imam, mullah, etc. Do you honestly think these nut cases are out on the streets burnding things down without the permission of their leadership? Not!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 34):
there's nothing confusing...its about as ignorant and crass of a comment as you can get...how are you going to reply to it?

How are you going to respond Jacobin? Simple, elementary one liners aren't your style.


For the record, Jacobin - I do not subscribe to the "My way or the Highway" theory that you conveniently attributed to me in your reply 34. I do however grow tired of the extremist muslims in this world blowing shit up every time something pisses them off. Seems their only answer to anything - the extremists only answer to anything - is kill, maim, destroy, terrorize. Enough is enough.

As was said in another thread, pretty damned soon, the balance of the planet is simply going to say "enough". And then we truly will have WW3 on our hands.





[Edited 2006-02-06 07:51:12]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

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