cosec59
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Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:06 pm

Should the protesters that took part in demonstrations in London be prosecuted?













Muslim protesters who threatened violence during a march in London should be shown "no tolerance", the Conservatives have said.
Shadow home secretary David Davis said some of the placards held amounted to "incitement to murder" and protesters should be dealt with firmly by police.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:11 pm

I'm not familiar with the protests in London. Although, if they violated British law then there is no question that they should be prosecuted. A cartoon in poor taste is no excuse for breaking the law.

The laws do not provide exception for those who have been offended.

- Neil
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:13 pm

It is unacceptable for anyone to take the law into their own hands - the implemention of law is the responsibility of the criminal justice institutions.

I think Muslims have a strange agenda: they're advocating tolerance and acceptance yet are concurrently behaving in the opposite manner.

A lawful protest is totally fine. However, if a law is broken and it is 'worth' a prosecution, then that's also fine. It is important, I think, to consider the message that a prosecution would send out and the likely consequences of one. It's never clear-cut.
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Catatonic
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:14 pm

Stupid guy, could even get the date right, what happened on 3/11?? If they make threats then they should be arrested and sent packing to afghanistan! I cant stand these whinging Muslims who complain about western culture yet hypocritically live here! They wouldnt survive a day in a strict muslim country without their home comforts! By all means protest and I really think they have a just reason to be angry but dont make serious threats.





[Edited 2006-02-05 11:20:09]
Equally Cursed and Blessed.
 
cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:14 pm

It has been claimed that the protesters were carrying placards that were an "incitement to murder".
To my mind they should be dealt with severley.
Whilst I agree that they have a right to demonstrate, they should NOT have gone that far
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
windshear
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:15 pm

Yes I do.
This is the funny thing... some Muslims are against freedom of speech, what we are witnessing on these pictures are Muslims thinking that they are raping the freedom of speech, while the Danish constitution clearly states, that anyone who utters or encourages the harm of other people, be it gender, sex or religion should be punished according to...

I think these placards are NOT within the laws of freedom of speech, to preach beheadings and that Europe's 9/11 is on the way, even this one:
Europe You will pay, Osama Bin Laden is the way

Why are such people living in the UK and Europe??
I mean say it in the MIddle Eeast, but why come here and preech th destruction of our continent???

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:16 pm

I may be mistaken, but wasn't the Madrid Train bombing on 3/11?

- Neil
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
cfalk
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Muslim protesters who threatened violence during a march in London should be shown "no tolerance", the Conservatives have said.
Shadow home secretary David Davis said some of the placards held amounted to "incitement to murder" and protesters should be dealt with firmly by police.

Those who do not have British citizenship should be deported and blacklisted from further visits to Britain or the EU. You do not want them.

Those who are British citizens, unfortunately there is not much you can do.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
windshear
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:20 pm

Yes Neil you are right...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Those who are British citizens, unfortunately there is not much you can do.

They still need to comply with the LAW and therefore prosecuted if any laws have been broken
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:22 pm

Yes, within the boundry of the law.

There is no excuse for this - and these protests are just like any other illegal assembly . . . prosecute them . . . and for those that are burning and destroying property - restitution and harsher prosecution.

Now - all that said: As soon as one of the protestors goes to jail - there'll be the pacifist charging religious persecution.  sarcastic 

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
they dont like what goes on here, they can fuck off back to their own countries!



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Those who are British citizens

Some where born here Matt and therefore are British
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Matt72033
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:41 pm

bloody british empire!
 
sean377
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:50 pm

Bloody religion!

As children we are forgiven in believing in such things as Santa Claus and God. We grow up and soon realise that both are nothing but ficticious characters. Yet some grown ups choose to carry on "believing" in one, but not the other???

Nutters.
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IceTitan447
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
It is unacceptable for anyone to take the law into their own hands



Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Should the protesters that took part in demonstrations in London be prosecuted?

HELL YES!!
they dont like what goes on here, they can fuck off back to their own countries!

Couldnt say it any better.
 
Banco
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:04 pm

I note that no-one in this thread has mentioned the utter condemnation of these people from the mainstream Muslim groups. It's worth mentioning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4682262.stm

On Saturday, Asghar Bukhari, chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, said the demonstration in London on Friday should have been stopped by police because the group had been advocating violence.

He said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".

Mr Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, Muslims do not feel that way.

"I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."

He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence.

"We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped.

"It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible."


As for these people, I'm not sure whether carrying a banner, offensive as it may be, constitutes sufficient evidence for a prosecution or not. I hope it is though.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 18):
As for these people, I'm not sure whether carrying a banner, offensive as it may be, constitutes sufficient evidence for a prosecution or not. I hope it is though.

Questions:

In the UK, do protesters, for any cause, need a permit to assemble? They do in Alaska.

Could they not be prosecuted for inciting a riot?

I would agree, prosecuting these people - for simply carrying an offensive banner - is untenable. . . the ultimate in hypocracy since they are rioting/protesting over a silly-assed cartoon.

The protesters however that have already burned embassies and destroyed property have lost their right to claim "freedome of speech and assembly". It's gone way beyond that.




[Edited 2006-02-05 12:13:25]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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n229nw
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:22 pm

Absolutely, anyone carrying such a placard, or chanting such a thing, should be prosecuted.

Peaceful protest is one thing...even if it is misguided when directed against Denmark here. This is another.

Btw, they are not only breaking the law but once again the immediate victims are the 90% of law-abiding Muslims in the UK who disagree strongly with the signs but whose opinions are never published in the newspapers while these idiots hog the headlines. When the tabloids splash these pictures everywhere over and over, you can bet there will be spike in anti-Asian violence and attacks. Denmark should not have to apologize on behalf of the paper; nor should all Muslims be asked to apologize for these losers.

Just arrest them; deport them if they are not citizens. I can't believe they still haven't deported "Hook"...
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whitehatter
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Shadow home secretary David Davis said some of the placards held amounted to "incitement to murder" and protesters should be dealt with firmly by police.

Davis is indulging in typical Old Tory kneejerk vote-wrangling. If he was in Clarke's post then nobody would be arrested for Incitement to Murder.

That is one extreme to another, although breach of the peace should be the offence invoked. By all means take them off the street as their behaviour is unacceptable, and let them cool their heels in a cell.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):

In the UK, do protesters, for any cause, need a permit to assemble? They do in Alaska.

Permission is required in that local police must be notified and a route agreed. The police can go through a legal process to ensure an arranged march does not happen, but spontaneous ones like this are technically illegal. However the police tend not to be too heavy on suppressing them unless there are grounds to do so such as safety.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
I would agree, prosecuting these people - for simply carrying an offensive banner - is untenable. . . the ultimate in hypocracy since they are rioting/protesting over a silly-assed cartoon.

The offence which could be invoked here would be conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace. Which is arrestable and normally carries a fine or community penalty.
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Alessandro
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:26 pm

Are they stupid, don´t they remember what stupid young muslims did in London last year? It´s like Irish would stage a demonstration in London threatening
with violence 6 months after the Brighton bombings in 1984.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Banco
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 22):
The police can go through a legal process to ensure an arranged march does not happen

Just to clarify, the police have to have a bloody good reason to prevent a march going ahead, usually to do with public order. The marches in Northern Ireland are an example of that, where one side or the other wants to go right through the heartland of their opponents. I cases like this, the police can fairly easily prevent there being any public order problems, so they can't really stop the march - and, obnoxious and objectionable though the placards were, nor should they. It would ironic to talk about freedom of speech and then prevent people protesting, however much they might push the boundaries of acceptability.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 24):
It would ironic to talk about freedom of speech and then prevent people protesting, however much they might push the boundaries of acceptability.

Exactly - hypocracy at it's finest.

I suspected there would be laws requiring lawful assembly.

Perhaps it is better that the local police - in this case - just let it alone. If they interfere what is/was a "peaceful march" could get out of hand.

All this over a damned cartoon???

Glad we aren't like that in the States! All of the GWB cartoons would have all the uber righties in a massive riotous tizzy!  crazy 



FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
windshear
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:33 pm

Banco encouraging or threatening with violence, death, terror and/or hatred is not allowed is it?

That is what these placards are doing!
They are raping the freedom of speech just because they want to abuse it to mock and try to contradict our "excuse" for posting the drawings.

The drawings once again, were posted, because the newpaper felt that they shouldn't simply out of concern as of their own safety and annonymity... That was when they saw that freedom of speech was in danger in the west!

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
777236ER
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:51 pm

Of course not. A placard, even if it does say 'Freedom Go To Hell' is still peaceful protest, and protected under law.

What, exactly, should they be prosecuted for? You may not agree with their view, but they're entitled to have it.
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ly7e7
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:51 pm

I say : if Danish newspaper should be allowed to offend another religion the subjects should be allowed to counter-offend as well. What goes around comes around. Those who actually cross the line of verbal protest should be prosecuted and deported out of Europe.


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Banco
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 28):
Of course not. A placard, even if it does say 'Freedom Go To Hell' is still peaceful protest, and protected under law.

I think there were a few other banners that went rather further, advocating the murder of people. That's where the issue of possible prosecution as come in. The ones being displayed on the picture in this thread aren't really the issue.

Even so, I still struggle to see how a prosecution could be obtained merely by someone carrying a banner, no matter what it said.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
As soon as one of the protestors goes to jail - there'll be the pacifist charging religious persecution.

A pacifist believes in non-violent means to reach an end. Being pacifist does not mean being against a sentence matching the severity of a crime.

Perhaps there was a different word you were searching for?  Wink
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7FTwinOtter
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:33 pm

The problem is that it's the most vocal Muslim bigots who get all the attention, all the Muslims i Know are getting on with there lives minding there own business and being productive British citizens.
 
mandala499
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:42 pm

The problem is that it's the most vocal Muslim bigots who get all the attention

Who's that guy that set up the British Islamic Parliament? LOL I wonder if he was ever on the welfare dole... But man he stirred a lot of madness in those days...

Mandala499
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rjpieces
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:45 pm

Yes, they should be prosecuted and deported wherever possible. Most importantly, I hope that MI5 has undercover agents there and videotapes every single one of them.
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ltbewr
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 3):
Stupid guy, could even get the date right, what happened on 3/11??

The train bombings/terror attacks that took place in Madrid (2?) years ago.

There is such a conterdiction here as to freedom of speech. Of course, there are some who want to stop or limit the freedom of speech of others who threaten them or disturb them but to limit what one can say may mean others may be limited in their speech too and letting government be the censor. What I worry more about are those who stay quiet and are plotting the next terror attack.
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
I hope that MI5 has undercover agents there and videotapes every single one of them.

I have no doubts that Metropolitan Police does that. They always videotape demonstrators. As for whether they should be prosecuted, hmmmm.... yes and no. If they plan some serious attack whether it is throwing stones at BBC or some terrorist attack, they should be prosecuted. Simply because they scream stupidities, definitely no, although the possibility of the law that bans stupidity in general is not such a bad idea.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Yes, they should be prosecuted and deported wherever possible.

Does it include the second and third generation of immigrants?
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777236ER
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 32):
Yes, they should be prosecuted and deported wherever possible. Most importantly, I hope that MI5 has undercover agents there and videotapes every single one of them.

Prosecuted for what?! It's perfectly legal to protest in this country. It's perfectly legal to have placards calling for death, even.

Shurely you're not suggesting that people who protest against freedom should be, uh, locked up? Doesn't that mean they get exactly what they're campaigning for?

I suggest you calm down a bit. People on all sides of this argument have become far too angry over trivial matters. It's perfectly alright to publish cartoons, just as it's perfectly alright to protest.
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casinterest
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:52 am

There was a line from an American movie that basically stated

You can't practice true freedom of speech, until you grant someone the right to speak about something so against your values and rights that it eats you alive.

Having said that however, death threats and hopes for terrorist attacks would tend to go closer to the "inciting a riot" rule. I beleive those responsible with that should be charged for it.

In Syria the same should be true, those that burned and went crazy should be held accountable by law, however i don't know how Syria deals with destruction of property.
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fspilot747
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:29 am

Tear gas. Especially the little b*tch with the 3/11 sign. Is this really over the cartoon?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:16 am

If they are protesting peacefully and have not broken any laws, then yuo cannot prosecute them for anything. If they turn violent, i.e storming an embassy or setting fire to cars or other properties, then arrest them and try them under whatever terrorism act that's been passed through Parliament lately. I don't want people to further destroy the image of Islam which has taken another battering in recent days.
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cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 39):
If they are protesting peacefully and have not broken any laws

What about the placards they were carrying? Incitement? I think so
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:26 am

The protests on Friday in London over cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad saw slogans and placards glorifying the 7 July London bombings

Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:26 am

Well you have to interpret the laws in the correct manner, i don't know the exact wording of the racial incitement laws, but if there's a case for prosecuting these people, then by all means the Met should start arresting these people.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
777236ER
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
What about the placards they were carrying? Incitement? I think so

The problem is that all incitement laws on the books are bollocks. Incitement is a bullshit offense, and threats our freedom far much more than any terrorist attack.

'Incitement' is purely subjective, and can be applied to pretty much anything. You have, potentially, incited me. That doesn't mean you should be locked up!
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cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 39):
'Incitement' is purely subjective

I agree.But these placards were advocating the murder of non-muslims.
Whilst the majority of muslims in this country would abhor these sentiments, the extremists calling for this type of retribution need to held accountable for their vile views.
Whilst I am aware of the freedom of speech issues here. The line has been crossed
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PIA777
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Should the protesters that took part in demonstrations in London be prosecuted?

If they are protesting peacfully, then NO. If they are rioting,
throw those bastards in jail.

PIA777
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usnseallt82
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

I think they should be charged to the fullest extent of the law. They shouldn't have one ounce of compassion for their blatant stupidity. That's my rational side....

My Texan side says someone should go up there and beat the living sh*t out of each and every one of the f*ckers who are doing this without any reason for it. A cartoon sets them off this bad? Then they've already forgotten some of the basic teachings that their so-called 'religion' holds dear.

There you have it. My dichotomy of personalities.  Big grin
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777236ER
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 40):
Whilst the majority of muslims in this country would abhor these sentiments, the extremists calling for this type of retribution need to held accountable for their vile views.

You're wrong. While some views may be vile, we live in a country where you're perfectly entitled to have and express those views - whatever they are.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 40):
Whilst I am aware of the freedom of speech issues here. The line has been crossed

Why? BNP leader Nick Griffen was aquited of a ridiculous incitement charge, and he was prosecuted for saying things just as inflamatory and hate filled as the words on those placards. The result of his acquittal? Loads of publicity for their cause and ammunition for them to say 'look! We're justified!"

Freedom of speech implies there isn't a line. If there's a limit to what can be said and what can be written, then speech isn't free.
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cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 43):
Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 40):
Whilst the majority of muslims in this country would abhor these sentiments, the extremists calling for this type of retribution need to held accountable for their vile views.

You're wrong

So you are quite comfortable with the fact that these people were gloryfying the July 7th bombings?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
GDB
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:36 am

We did not when they were screaming for Rushdie's murder in 1989.
Incitement is illegal, but not clear cut.

However, many of these uber-pricks did not do a good job of hiding their faces, with the amount of CCTV around, many might well have removed any face coverings heading to, getting on the tube for example.
I would hope these people are watched, investigated, at the very least.

Though I doubt a bunch of loudmouths would be the first choice for anyone planning an actual attack, or assisting in one.
However, you cannot be sure.
 
777236ER
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 44):
So you are quite comfortable with the fact that these people were gloryfying the July 7th bombings?

No, but that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. If you want to have freedom of speech, then you have freedom of speech. You can't have freedom with exceptions.

Despite the grandeos ambitions of the Terrorism Act, I doubt anyone in Britain will be convicted of 'glorifying terrorism'. After all, anyone who admires Nelson Mandela is shurely glorifying terrorism?

If you want to limit the rights of people to say whatever they want, then you're just as bad as those who want to ban religious cartoons. True freedom of speech is to allow those who have a completely opposite view to you - even if that view is against freedom of speech! - to have their view.
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Marco
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:54 am

If they are protesting peacfully, then NO. If they are rioting,
throw those bastards in jail.


Using your logic then the people in charge of publishing the cartoons should be left untouched. They published those cartoons peacefully.

Double standards or what?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
cosec59
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RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 46):
You can't have freedom with exceptions

But there should be limitations.Where those limits are set is a different matter.
Personally I found those placards worrying rather than offensive
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Should Muslim Protesters Be Prosecuted?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 47):
Double standards or what?

You've got to be kidding me. By your twisted logic, the publishers should be punished in the same manner that the protestors who are destroying buildings should be.

That's bullshit. Plain and simple.  redflag 
Crye me a river

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