duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:48 am

I am curious as to whether there are any posters on these forums who harbor general or specific parenting views that are more liberal than mainstream parenting views, and if they could mention them. Also who believe in certain firm entitlement rights for children. To get an idea of what I am thinking about, I will give an example of possible views, I will give some examples of liberal/entitling views a parent might hold. Note that some are very general, others are very specific:

"as long as they are good citizens, children should not be forced to do things they don't want. Rules relating to the person of the child should be advised, but parents should not force their child to obey them, but find other ways of trying to persuade the child to take their advice."

"A family is a democracy."

"Parents should not be able to force their child to do X or Y specific thing (eg. wear braces, go to summer camp, look certain way, practice the same religion as the parent, whatever)"

"Without being spoiled, a child should be entitled to a good standard of living while being supported by its parents, not just to basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care."

"Children don't need to go to bed earlier than grownups, at least not all of them."

"Corporal punishment (or insert X kind of discipline) should be illegal."

"The parent's house is the child's house too. If the child is either small, or is getting an education, or is working and helping with family expenses, it has the right to live with its parents."

"A child should have the complete right to spend its free time as it chooses, as long as it does not do anything harmful. Parents should not be able to make a child do soccer, ballet, learn the piano, or other extracurricular activity if it doesn't want to."

"Parents should not be allowed to have their son circumcised or to have their baby daughter's ears pierced."

"Children should be allowed to get piercings if they feel like it."

"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

"Children should have a legal right to loving treatment at the hands of their parents."

These examples I have given are just examples of views. They are not questions (I.E. I am not asking you specifically if you agree with the statements I have written, but whether you harbor any views of this type, and if you can state those views). My goal in this post is simply to survey how much, among people in general, there are those who would hold to such ideas.

Oh, by the way, if you do not hold any views of this type, have you had experience with parents who do or seem to?
 
NeilYYZ
Posts: 2443
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:55 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children don't need to go to bed earlier than grownups, at least not all of them."

Children would stay up all night watching TV or something, then school the next day is out.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):

"Corporal punishment (or insert X kind of discipline) should be illegal."

Spanking a child is not all that bad, as long as it's not excessive, I got spanked when I did bad things, and I stopped soon after.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):

"The parent's house is the child's house too. If the child is either small, or is getting an education, or is working and helping with family expenses, it has the right to live with its parents."

Yes for the education, although just because you can earn money and pay for some household needs, dosen't mean you shouldn't move out if you are 25

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):

"Parents should not be allowed to have their son circumcised or to have their baby daughter's ears pierced."

A relatively minor issue, none affects the future sucess of the child.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):

"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

Ha! I don't think so.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Parents should not be able to force their child to do X or Y specific thing (eg. wear braces, go to summer camp, look certain way, practice the same religion as the parent, whatever)"

Getting you child active is essential, helping them meet other people, get fit, learn social skills. I think as a child if my parents hadn't forced me to do activities, I would have watched Simpsons re-runs all day long.

Although I am not a parent, I can promise you that my household will be fair, strict and also fun. But a parent can't just let a child run free. I feel they need to be taught how to behave socially, and how to suceed in life.

Just my thoughts.

- Neil
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
Spanking a child is not all that bad, as long as it's not excessive, I got spanked when I did bad things, and I stopped soon after.

If you can do just one thing for your kids: drop spanking! There's no such thing as "mild spanking". You don't spank your spouse, you don't spank your neighbour, you don't spank your boss. Spank your mistress, if you must.
Do not carry on the failures of the past generations! As we see, the spanked become spankers!
 
futureualpilot
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:19 am

Granted I am not a parent yet, but I will be, and from my experiences growing up,

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"A family is a democracy."

"Parents should not be able to force their child to do X or Y specific thing (eg. wear braces, go to summer camp, look certain way, practice the same religion as the parent, whatever)"

No, children do not have the foresight to see and do what will be best for them down the road. I hated braces when I had them, but now, and years from now, Im glad I had them. A lot of this would depend on the specifics of each situation. I hope my children will at least be spiritual, but they do not have to practice any certain religion if the do not want to.

"Without being spoiled, a child should be entitled to a good standard of living while being supported by its parents, not just to basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care."

Again, it depends on the situation. I want my children to be happy and comfortable but I want them to know the value of money and hard work.

"Children don't need to go to bed earlier than grownups, at least not all of them."

Bull. NeilYYZ hit the nail on the head. It maintains some discipline and will help them regulate their schedules to maximize the next day at school, etc.

"Corporal punishment (or insert X kind of discipline) should be illegal."

I too was spanked when I did something wrong, as well as smacked (nothing over the top, but enough to get my attention) in the mouth for saying something inappropriate when I was younger. I will try verbally warning my children first, but I wont be one of those parents who just stands there telling their screaming child to stop in the middle of a crowded super market because I wont buy them fruit snacks.

"The parent's house is the child's house too. If the child is either small, or is getting an education, or is working and helping with family expenses, it has the right to live with its parents."

"A child should have the complete right to spend its free time as it chooses, as long as it does not do anything harmful. Parents should not be able to make a child do soccer, ballet, learn the piano, or other extracurricular activity if it doesn't want to."

"Parents should not be allowed to have their son circumcised or to have their baby daughter's ears pierced."

Up to the parents. Im for the first part, it does not bother me either way, but not so much for the second part.

"Children should be allowed to get piercings if they feel like it."

Not as long as they are under my roof. If my daughter wants her ears pierced, that is of course time.

"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

As soon as my wife and I see that they are mature enough to realize the ramifications of the decisions they will make, they can date. If I feel they are responsible,

"Children should have a legal right to loving treatment at the hands of their parents."

If you are saying children have a right to be loved, I dont know about a legal right but they certainly deserve to be loved. They did not choose to enter the world, they were brought into it by the decisions of their parents. I would hope they would be loved, although this is not always the case.

***Of course, all decisions will have to be approved by my wife.  Wink  Smile
Life is better when you surf.
 
futureualpilot
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 2):
Do not carry on the failures of the past generations! As we see, the spanked become spankers!

Failures? My parents spanked me when I did something wrong, and I havent turned out wanting to dye my hair unnatural colors, be "goth", or drop out of school, etc. I have goals, I am told Im level headed and mature for my age, and I want to have a healthy, happy family at some point in my future. So, why then, is spanking bad?
Life is better when you surf.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:27 am

This type of attitude is what is getting so many kids screwed up these days. They have no respect for authority or respect in general. And this is coming from a nineteen year old.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:29 am

We have this hanging on our refrigerator door. Over the past four years I've caught myself reading and re-reading it countless times.

Children learn what they live:

If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn;
If a child lives with hostility,
he learns to fight;
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy;
If a child lives with shame,
he learns to feel guilty;
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient;
If a child lives with encouragement,
he learns confidence;
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate;
If a child lives with fairness,
he learns justice;
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith;
If a child lives with approval,
he learns to like himself;
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
He learns to love the world.

Each child is different. What works in one family may not work in yours.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 4):
So, why then, is spanking bad?

I stress again that you should break the chain of violent behaviour toward little children. I've done that for my part. It's also illegant in this country. Bringing up a balanced child does not require violent parenting, on the contrary.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"as long as they are good citizens, children should not be forced to do things they don't want.

Being a good citizen often means doing things that you might not really want to do. Like paying taxes.

Kids are stupid by nature. That's why they have to go to school and be educated in social requirements by their parents. Kids, left on their own, will learn nothing other than how to operate a TV remote, a Playstation, and find ways to get into trouble with his friends.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"A family is a democracy."

Absolute, utter bullshit.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Parents should not be able to force their child to do X or Y specific thing (eg. wear braces, go to summer camp, look certain way, practice the same religion as the parent, whatever)"

While the parents should take what the child wants into account, If the parent believes that the child's wants are unreasonable, and that he will eventually appreciate what you are trying to do, the parent should have the right of final decision.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Without being spoiled, a child should be entitled to a good standard of living while being supported by its parents, not just to basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care."

 checkmark 

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children don't need to go to bed earlier than grownups, at least not all of them."

Bull. Children need plenty of sleep. Babies sleep most of the day. A 10-year old is a slug without at least 10 hours of sleep. An adult can get by with 6 hours of sleep, and sometimes less. But not a child.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Corporal punishment (or insert X kind of discipline) should be illegal."

Spanking should be allowed, within reason. Kids sometimes will refuse to listen to reason, and you have to have some backup tool to enforce the rules. A judicial spanking now is better than prison later.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"The parent's house is the child's house too. If the child is either small, or is getting an education, or is working and helping with family expenses, it has the right to live with its parents."

 checkmark , but it is the parents who pay the bills and make sure that the family HAS a home.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"A child should have the complete right to spend its free time as it chooses, as long as it does not do anything harmful. Parents should not be able to make a child do soccer, ballet, learn the piano, or other extracurricular activity if it doesn't want to."

Parents must work to prevent the child from doing things that will eventually be harmful, like watching TV or playing computer games all day.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Parents should not be allowed to have their son circumcised or to have their baby daughter's ears pierced."

Circumcision is arguably a hygene issue, so I question that. Piercing a baby's ears is just stupid.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children should be allowed to get piercings if they feel like it."

No. My son once came home with a piercing, and I made him lose it, and he later told me that I was right.

For girls it's different, as far as earings are concerned.

But I draw the line at noserings, eyebrows, and other stupid piercings. People don't need to look like a walking hardware store. Noserings make you look like a cow.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

But I will (and have) prevented my children from spending time with kids who I feel are a bad influence. As long as your criteria are reasonable.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children should have a legal right to loving treatment at the hands of their parents."

 checkmark 

Just remember, love does not mean you let them do whatever they want. That's not love, that is convenience and indifference. Love means not being afraid to interfere when you feel that they are on the wrong path.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:57 pm

Dependent upon the age of the child, and using my 11 year old daughter as an example, I offer the following:

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"as long as they are good citizens, children should not be forced to do things they don't want. Rules relating to the person of the child should be advised, but parents should not force their child to obey them, but find other ways of trying to persuade the child to take their advice."

   For every action there is a consequence. Some are positive and some are negative. If the action is negative, the consequence will be as well. One of the reasons teenagers and young adults so dicked up these days is because parents didn't take the time to make them mind. Easier to stick 'em in front of the X-Box . . .

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"A family is a democracy."

   and    This is a lousy question. It is only a democracy when it comes to "What's for dinner" . . . . it is not a democracy when it comes to clean your room, get ready for school, help with what ever chore you have been assigned . . .

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Parents should not be able to force their child to do X or Y specific thing (eg. wear braces, go to summer camp, look certain way, practice the same religion as the parent, whatever)"

Again, another vague question. Summer camp? Who gives a damn about summer camp? Braces - if necessary, yes. Look a certain way - damn skippy, if you're going to be with me, clean, appropriately dressed (by that I mean clothes that fit, and are clean, and don't have prepackaged holes in the damn things, aren't hanging off your ass, don't show profanity, and if you wear a hat the bill of the hat GOES OVER THE FOREHEAD!). Religion - I could care less, as long as you don't burn down the house if I show you cartoon that offends you.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Without being spoiled, a child should be entitled to a good standard of living while being supported by its parents, not just to basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care."

   My daughter has what she needs, and most of what she wants. She earns some of it, but usually . . . I just get it. Why not, I can afford it, she has an interest in it, it won't hurt me, it won't hurt her. . . why not.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children don't need to go to bed earlier than grownups, at least not all of them."

   Proven that children need more rest. Besides if they aren't sleeping, no nookie for Mom and Dad   

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Corporal punishment (or insert X kind of discipline) should be illegal."

       redflag  Another reason teenagers and young adults are so massively screwed up. No one ever gave them a good spanking. For the record I think I've only smacked my daughter on the bottom - maybe twice. If you are doing your job as a parent - it will never come to corporal punishment. I have never spanked her. Never had to.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"The parent's house is the child's house too. If the child is either small, or is getting an education, or is working and helping with family expenses, it has the right to live with its parents."

When that child reaches 18 that child better have a J O B or be in S C H O O L or that child has some explaining to do. And that child WILL pay rent - unless they are in school. I have told may daughter she can live in my house as long as she's in school . . . college/university included . . . at no cost to her. That's includes my paying her fees. As soon as she's graduated, well - like I just said - time to get a J O B. Rent's due on the 1st.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"A child should have the complete right to spend its free time as it chooses, as long as it does not do anything harmful. Parents should not be able to make a child do soccer, ballet, learn the piano, or other extracurricular activity if it doesn't want to."

   But it could be suggested that the child broaden his/her horizons and experience other things. My daughter does gymnastics twice week, is in the school and church choir, and plays the clarinet in school.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Parents should not be allowed to have their son circumcised or to have their baby daughter's ears pierced."

   Strictly up to the parents.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children should be allowed to get piercings if they feel like it."

When pigs fly outta my ass. With the single exception of pierced ears, my child, as long as she remains a child, better never put another hole in her body that God didn't put there in the first place. Period, end.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

One more time with the pigs! Not a chance in hell. I don't have a specific age in mind as to when I think my daughter ought to start dating. That will depend on many, many things. Not the least of which is the person she wants to date. Some specifics - please see my remarks above about dress, appearance, piercings, clothing, cleanliness . . . . and remember - I'm armed.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children should have a legal right to loving treatment at the hands of their parents."

Right??? No, not a right in the legal sense. But a moral right, yes. No matter what, it is your child - loving treatment is morally obligated. All the things above in this post are examples thereof.







[Edited 2006-02-07 11:01:26]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:01 pm

There's only one parenting rule I have for myself: Don't have kids.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:26 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Dependent upon the age of the child, and using my 11 year old daughter as an example,

11! Greatest age for a daughter. Enjoy it. Mine is 19. Once she hits 12 or 13 and starts looking a boys, it gets tough.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children don't need to go to bed earlier than grownups, at least not all of them."

Proven that children need more rest. Besides if they aren't sleeping, no nookie for Mom and Dad

LOL!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Corporal punishment (or insert X kind of discipline) should be illegal."

Another reason teenagers and young adults are so massively screwed up. No one ever gave them a good spanking. For the record I think I've only smacked my daughter on the bottom - maybe twice. If you are doing your job as a parent - it will never come to corporal punishment. I have never spanked her. Never had to.

I made my position on spanking clear in my earlier post. But I NEVER ONCE had to spank my kids. Not once. My wife gave a spanking every once and a while (maybe a half-dozen times in all), and it generally came with a warning that if they transgressed again, Dad would administer the spanking, and I am a lot stronger. I never had to test that thesis.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

One more time with the pigs! Not a chance in hell. I don't have a specific age in mind as to when I think my daughter ought to start dating. That will depend on many, many things. Not the least of which is the person she wants to date. Some specifics - please see my remarks above about dress, appearance, piercings, clothing, cleanliness . . . . and remember - I'm armed.

Like I said, it will be tough. I have had to lay down the law with my daughter. Once I chased a boy away from the house with a bat, after he started talking back to me. My daughter eventually learned to tell her visiting boyfriends to get rid of any piercings, dress properly, and speak respectfully to her parents. 10 o'clock means 10 o'clock.

This is a useful guide. I have actually used parts of it!

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/3456/h_rulesdating.html

My favorite is this one:

Rule Nine:
Do not lie to me. I may appear to be a potbellied, balding, middle-aged, dimwitted has-been. But on issues relating to my daughter, I am the all-knowing, merciless god of your universe. If I ask you where you are going and with whom, you have one chance to tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I have a shotgun, a shovel, and five acres behind the house. Do not trifle with me.


I've actually used that line, and it works!!!

[Edited 2006-02-07 11:28:23]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:53 pm

CFalk, you are hereby nominated the STANDARD REFERENCE personality of oppressive conservative values and behaviour. Personally, I get the creeps of horror from this. All that nicely worded violence hidden in a gold-brimmed case .... I guess you were spanked a lot? Behave ... or Daddy will spank you!

[Edited 2006-02-07 13:55:09]
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:17 pm

Rule Ten:
Be afraid. Be very afraid. It takes very little for me to mistake the sound of your car in the driveway for a chopper coming in over a rice paddy near Hanoi. When my Agent Orange starts acting up, the voices in my head frequently tell me to clean the guns as I wait for you to bring my daughter home. As soon as you pull into the driveway you should exit your car with both hands in plain sight. Speak the perimeter password, announce in a clear voice that you have brought my daughter home safely and early, then return to your car - there is no need for you to come inside. The camouflaged face at the window is mine.


This was designed just for me.  laughing  wink 



FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 12):
I guess you were spanked a lot? Behave ... or Daddy will spank you!

I got spanked maybe 3 or 4 times, max. Sometimes fear of punishment is the only thing that works. Or are you the type of guy that does not believe in prisons?

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 12):
CFalk, you are hereby nominated the STANDARD REFERENCE personality of oppressive conservative values and behaviour.

I guess that just means I love my kids more than you.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"as long as they are good citizens, children should not be forced to do things they don't want. Rules relating to the person of the child should be advised, but parents should not force their child to obey them, but find other ways of trying to persuade the child to take their advice."

You're kidding, right?

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"A family is a democracy."

Yes, it is. But mom and dad always have more votes than the children.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Parents should not be able to force their child to do X or Y specific thing (eg. wear braces, go to summer camp, look certain way, practice the same religion as the parent, whatever)"

 rotfl  As another poster noted, children don't have the capacity to always know what is best for them. So yes, parents can force their kids to do things they don't want to do.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Without being spoiled, a child should be entitled to a good standard of living while being supported by its parents, not just to basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care."

Just what is a "good standard of living?" If the parents can only afford to provide basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care, then that's what their children will get. There isn't a constitutional right to an Xbox, Ipod, or plasma screen TV.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children should be allowed to get piercings if they feel like it."

Once they are on their own, paying their own way through life, they can become a human pincushion. Until then, if mom and dad say no piercings, no piercings.

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children can date as soon as they feel ready."

Once they are on their own, paying their own way through life, they can date who and when they want. Are you detecting a trend in my responses?  biggrin 

Quoting Duke (Thread starter):
"Children should have a legal right to loving treatment at the hands of their parents."

While one would hope that every parent loves their children, to make it a legal requirement is absurd.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 2):
Do not carry on the failures of the past generations! As we see, the spanked become spankers!

The failures are in NOT spanking your children when they are wrong. One of the biggest reasons for juvinile deliquents today is the fact that they did not learn any respect for their parents/teachers/coaches/law enforcement, etc. This respect comes from proper disipline. Sure, they're exceptions to every rule, but as a rule, children will push the limits with all authority figures, and if they're are no consequences for exceeding those limits, well, you are simply raising a burden for society later down the road....

Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 4):
So, why then, is spanking bad?

It's not. See above.

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 7):
I stress again that you should break the chain of violent behaviour toward little children

Violent behaviour - sure! Spanking is NOT violent behaviour.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
When that child reaches 18 that child better have a J O B or be in S C H O O L or that child has some explaining to do. And that child WILL pay rent - unless they are in school. I have told may daughter she can live in my house as long as she's in school . . . college/university included . . . at no cost to her. That's includes my paying her fees. As soon as she's graduated, well - like I just said - time to get a J O B. Rent's due on the 1st.

I agree, but I'll at least give him until the fifth of the month before I tack on late-fees.  Big grin
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 16):
Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 2):
Do not carry on the failures of the past generations! As we see, the spanked become spankers!

The failures are in NOT spanking your children when they are wrong.

Were you spanked as a kid? More than once? Do you feel a need to "understand" and protect your dad (?) for his doing so?

At least in my generation and in my country kids are not spanked, fortunately the lawmakers have agreed with this policy as well. It is unfortunate if your authority as a mature adult rests on your ability to physically harm your kids, but that might simply be your culture of doing things.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
Were you spanked as a kid? More than once? Do you feel a need to "understand" and protect your dad (?) for his doing so?

Sure... I wasn't an angel. It instilled respect for authority in me, and I turned out pretty well. I'm not in jail, not destitute. I've had, and am still having a pretty good life. Married to a great girl for about 24 years now, we have a fifteen year-old son who's doing good in school, plays baseball for the high school team, and is a real good kid. That doesn't mean I have slapped his ass a few times over the years. I think he'll be better for it!

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
rests on your ability to physically harm your kids

A spanking is not physically harming kids. It may cause a little pain in the butt, which is why it's administered, but no harm is done. In fact, I believe a lot a good comes from it.
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
Rule Nine:
Do not lie to me. I may appear to be a potbellied, balding, middle-aged, dimwitted has-been. But on issues relating to my daughter, I am the all-knowing, merciless god of your universe. If I ask you where you are going and with whom, you have one chance to tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I have a shotgun, a shovel, and five acres behind the house. Do not trifle with me.

LOL! Classic...the proverbial "Dad with a chainsaw" shtick...funny stuff!

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
At least in my generation and in my country kids are not spanked,

To each his own. I'm not an advocate of spanking per se, but I believe it it a tool in the large parenting toolbox.

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
fortunately the lawmakers have agreed with this policy as well.

Great- so Finland has instituttionalized being a pussy. I guess that helps explain some of the egregious crime stats and interesting factoids of your country. Contempt for the law and a lack of personal responsibility and discipline is ingrained...no wonder.

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex/finland.shtml

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
It is unfortunate if your authority as a mature adult rests on your ability to physically harm your kids, but that might simply be your culture of doing things.

The authority as an adult and parent that I possess is that I have the responsibility to raise children that have respect for the law, respect for their elders, respect for authority and the wisdom to be able to address situations that affect all 3. Spanking is one means of that, but physicality isn't the exclusive domain, nor has anyone implied it is.
 
NeilYYZ
Posts: 2443
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:55 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
I got spanked maybe 3 or 4 times, max. Sometimes fear of punishment is the only thing that works.

Definatly, if I screwed up in a big way, I got spanked. When a kid gets spanked and told why they were spanked (it is essential that the child know why, otherwise it is just hitting them for in their mind, no reason) a little light will go off in their head, that, "oh crap, I did X, and I didn't really like the result, I won't do that anymore." I'm not saying that other methods don't work, but spanking your kid is not anywhere near beating them, it shows them in a quick concise and powerful way that a certain behavior is not acceptable.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
So yes, parents can force their kids to do things they don't want to do.

Of course, if it were up to me when I was a kid, I'd eat chocolate bars, drink Pepsi and watch TV all day long, then get up, and do it all over again. Most of the time when a parent forces a kid to do something it is in the best interests of the child, perhaps not in the immediate future, but in the distant future. That is the problem with kids, they have one track minds, they think in terms of what is going to make them happy now, and if it's a really bright kid, what will make them happy in 10 minutes. Kids need to be shown direction and discipline so that they are not wandering aimlessly around life.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 16):
One of the biggest reasons for juvinile deliquents today is the fact that they did not learn any respect for their parents/teachers/coaches/law enforcement, etc.

Kids need to be kept busy, there is no doubt, I agree 100%. Put your kid in sports, piano, dance, I don't care, keep them busy. Although I am only 20 and I'm sure most of you don't put much weight in my arguments on this topic, I was always kept busy in high school, and I never got into any big trouble. I see kids, 9-13 hanging out at the mall and wasting their time and all I can think about is, either - Where are your parents and what are they doing that's so important? or Why don't you get off your arse and go become smarter, or play some sports? Kids need to realize that what they do now, affects what they will potentially be able to do in the future. Of course they can't see that, and that is the reason that we have the Mom and or Dad.

- Neil
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 18):
Sure... I wasn't an angel. It instilled respect for authority in me, and I turned out pretty well. [Of the Son] .... I have slapped his ass a few times over the years. I think he'll be better for it!

Thanks. Just as I thought. The spanked become spankers. And then the tradition goes on.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Quoting Slider (Reply 19):
Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
fortunately the lawmakers have agreed with this policy [corporal punishment of children is illegal] as well.

Great- so Finland has instituttionalized being a pussy. I guess that helps explain some of the egregious crime stats and interesting factoids of your country. Contempt for the law and a lack of personal responsibility and discipline is ingrained...no wonder.

Translation from Sliderspeak: "I could not be bothered to look for any statistics, so I just put a link somewhere"

And don't let any sissy social science get in the way:

"Spanking Argument #3 - “If we don't spank children, they'll grow up rotten”

Children in seventeen countries (2005) are growing up without being hit in homes, in daycare or in schools. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Finland and other countries that have banned corporal punishment of children in general have low rates of interpersonal violence compared to the United States. Critics predicted that Swedish youth would grow up more unruly after parents stopped spanking because of the l979 corporal punishment ban. Dr. Joan Durrant who studied effects of the ban for l5 years reported that this did not happen. Her studies indicate youth did not become more unruly, under socialized or self-destructive following the ban. In fact, she said most measures demonstrated a substantial improvement in youth well-being (Durrant, 2000)."

From: http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/factsAndFiction.php

"Over the last couple of decades, a number of studies have revealed a wide range of negative effects of spanking. One three-year study, conducted by Murray Straus of the University of New Hampshire, found evidence that this traditional practice leads to more antisocial behaviors.2 The study found that mothers who had spanked even once during a test week reported higher rates of antisocial behavior by their children two years following the spankings.

Other studies have revealed similar effects. Three separate studies of children with serious conduct problems, conducted by Grozier and Katz (1979), Patterson (1982), and Webster-Stratton et al. (1988, 1990), found that when spanking was discontinued and other forms of discipline and behavior management were used instead, the children's behavior improved. A study conducted by researchers at McMasters University found that anxiety disorders, drug and alcohol problems, antisocial behavior, and depression were more prevalent among adults who had been spanked as children.3 Because of this vast amount of research, the American Academy of Pediatrics has called for a ban on school spanking. "

From: http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...hild/discipline/spare_the_rod.html

[Edited 2006-02-08 01:12:04]
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:19 am

Again, the incarceration and crime stats of your own homeland would betray your quoting miscellaneous psychobabble.

Modern shrinks aren't experts...they claim to be enlightened and in one-two generations, we've shrugged off centuries of proven parenting methods and now look at crime, discipline, mere civil society....you're telling me that's an improvement?

Open your eyes.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 22):
we've shrugged off centuries of proven parenting methods and now look at crime, discipline, mere civil society....you're telling me that's an improvement?

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

You win the prize. Excellant point! Welcome to my RU list!
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:49 am

As my mom told me, "You have the right to get piercings and tattoos, but if you do you better start looking for other ways to pay for college." Well, let's just say I didn't get any.  Wink

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 22):
Again, the incarceration and crime stats of your own homeland would betray your quoting miscellaneous psychobabble.

I'm still waiting for those stats. I wonder where you found them?
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:42 am

Go check the link...it's posted.

I don't hang my case on that, but by the same token, you cannot conclusively state that not spanking and pussification-parenting is the answer either.

To each his own.
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
Go check the link...it's posted.

I did already, but since it is of a very meagre value, and moreover, does not promote your point, I asked again.

Couple of general points on the data: i) 1918 is a weird year to choose as it was the year of a bloody civil war in Finland. ii) There's no "Hameenilla" penitentiary. There was a (women's) prison in the old castle of Hämeenlinna, but is has been a prison museum for years.


So Mr Slider, which of the following is supposed to prove your point that our making the hitting of children illegal about 20 years ago has increased our crime rate?

-----------------------------------------------
Approximate number of years Finland did not have the highest incarceration rate in Scandinavia, 1886-1993: 1
Incarceration rate in Finland per 100,000 population, 1918: 250
Approximate Finish incarceration rate per 100,000 population, 1920-1950: 200
Number of years between 1975 and 1998 where the Finnish prison population rate per 100,000 population rose:0
Number of prisoners in Finland: 2,700
Current Finnish incarceration rate per 100,000 population: 52
Of the four Scandinavian countries, current rank, of Finland's incarceration rate: 4
Number of guns owned by the Hameenilla penitentiary: 10
Percent of penitentiary's guns locked in the warden's safe: 100%
Number of military-style uniforms in the Finnish prisons: 0
In polls measuring what national institutions are admired the most, rank given to the Finnish police:1
Percent of other European countries with a larger police force
per capita than Finland: 100%
Percent of Finns who were a victim of a crime in 1999: 19%
Average % of residents of industrialized countries that were a victim of a crime in 1999: 21%

----------------------------------------

[Edited 2006-02-08 21:47:52]
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:44 am

I am a single father of three 9,11,13 , I come from a family of 7 kids

We had great parents ,but we all turned out completely different.

I just follow my instincts with my kids , and be honest with them. I think if you feel its right to be more liberal than you should do what feels right to you. I will be honest, I feel like my kids are my best friends, we just get along with each other and have really grown close since the divorce.

I just try to teach them to be good kids , respect other , not to be lazy. I also emphasize that life is not easy and its OK to feel bad sometimes and people will let you down. You know, get them used to the roller coaster I guess.

Their EX mother just lost it , she was a only child and could not cope with them at all. She just took it all to serious.

Just relax and be yourself , unless you are and AHOLE, But you don't sound like it. If so , put them up for adoption.  Wink

The admiration of YOU by your children is truly the greatest reward in life.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:15 pm

Okay, thanks for the answers, now I will re-join the discussion. On this board, I have hinted at some of my pro-child rights stance several times (I concretely remember criticizing corporal punishment for example), but I have not discussed the general issue of parenting. I will now state my postion, and it is very complex. The statements I wrote in my original post were meant as suggestions for possible answers. They do reflect my general philosophy, but not necessarily as written. There are some reservations to it. Here is what I support:

As I see it, if someone does not have a child, they are free to live their life as they see fit. Once you have a child, you are still free to live life as you see fit BUT you should have (I.E. have a legal and public morality duty) to fullfil some very serious responsibilities to the child. The child did not ask to be born, it is entitled to a good upbringing and this should include:

-the parents being loving and affectionate (of course you cannot force a
parent to love a child, just like you cannot force a child to love a parent, but
you can make a legal requirement that parents behave lovingly), and
personally nurturing the child to adulthood, if able to do so. This should
include the right to live with your parents and not be shipped off to a
boarding school or other institution, unless there is a grave reason to do so.

-while the child is growing up and getting an education, the parents providing
the child with not only adequate food, clothing, shelter and other necessities
of life, but also with a standard of living equal to that of the parents (thus, in
answer to Hals 120, yes, if the parents can only afford the necessities of life,
that is all the child would get, but if you are a normal middle class parent, you
would have no right to put your child in a bare room in the basement and
give them nothing but the bare necessities. They would be entitled to a
middle class standard of living. This would be a general provision, and not
something that would, say entitle them very specifically to an Xbox or
designer shoes. This would also not mean spoiling the child, which the child of
course should not be. But there is a difference between not spoiling a child
and denying the child a decent standard of living. Did you know that the
phrase "you are entitled to food, clothing, shelter and medical attention.
Everything else is a privilege" is taken from the regulations of Alcatraz
penitentiary?

-the duty to protect the child from external harm, to the extent that the child
cannot protect itself.

-the duty to educate the child toward being a honest, productive citizen and
instill corresponding values.

So much for the generality of parental duty. I now have to scoot. When I come back, I will adress the issue of control of a parent over the child. Please do not assume anything until I have had the chance to express my opinion.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Duke (Reply 29):
(thus, in
answer to Hals 120, yes, if the parents can only afford the necessities of life,
that is all the child would get, but if you are a normal middle class parent, you
would have no right to put your child in a bare room in the basement and
give them nothing but the bare necessities. They would be entitled to a
middle class standard of living.

The problem in this country is that too many parents go overboard in the opposite direction from the bare room/bare necessities option which I agree is not appropriate. American children are in general incredibly spoiled. One of the many reasons my ex and I are no longer married is that I could no longer stomach the fighting over her penchant for overdoing it when it came to the kids.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 27):
So Mr Slider, which of the following is supposed to prove your point that our making the hitting of children illegal about 20 years ago has increased our crime rate?

My point is that if you believe not spanking makes for better children and a better society, your own nation's crime stats would contradict that assertion, as the general crime rate is on par, generally speaking, with other first world nations.

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 27):
Percent of Finns who were a victim of a crime in 1999: 19%
Average % of residents of industrialized countries that were a victim of a crime in 1999: 21%

Please reference the above comment for this stat.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
American children are in general incredibly spoiled.

This is absolutely dead on the money! It's the root of so much of what we face. From video games to clothes, to general materialism, today's kids have more than any other generation and yet they're not as smart, not as disciplined, not as balanced as previous generations. I think of my Dad talking about "back in the day" and it almost sounds barbaric compared to the embarrassment of riches, so to speak, that kids today have.

I think deprivation has its place. Turn the TV off, quit buying so much crap, turn off the XBox, send them outside, foster their imaginations, be aggressive in teaching them the basics of education--reading, writing, math, history, geogrpahy, science, economics--and teach your kids that it's OK to not "keep up with the Joneses" for material things, etc. Instill a sense of mental toughness early on, and it's amazing what they'll do to surprise you. It makes for a stout character, self-reliance, and a gregarious, loving child.

Parenting is a balancing act...you're always on the edge of that razor- too much, not enough, too firm, not firm enough and sometimes a combination of all of the above depending on the situation, the child, etc.

But as I said earlier, I am a strong proponent that spanking is one tool among the arsenal of parenting tools. It has its value. Does this mean that I'm a harsh brutal parent? Or that kids have to be brutalized to behave? No. But a good swat when warranted certainly gets attention. I don't care what these psychobabblers say, negative reinforcement IS effective...human civilization proves this.
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 31):
Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 27):
So Mr Slider, which of the following is supposed to prove your point that our making the hitting of children illegal about 20 years ago has increased our crime rate?

My point is that if you believe not spanking makes for better children and a better society, your own nation's crime stats would contradict that assertion, as the general crime rate is on par, generally speaking, with other first world nations.

Actually, if you recall, it was you who forcefully said that not hitting children will cause an increased crime rate. As you yourself note, this is not the case. No need for further comment.
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 32):
Actually, if you recall, it was you who forcefully said that not hitting children will cause an increased crime rate.

No I didn't forcefully say anything. You clearly implied that spanking is bad, as evidenced by your own quotes here. So if it's bad, where's the commensurate improvement in society? Why should it be outlawed? You haven't clearly delineated your position, much less defended it.

I like to hear your views on it other than the following quotes:

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 2):
If you can do just one thing for your kids: drop spanking! There's no such thing as "mild spanking". You don't spank your spouse, you don't spank your neighbour, you don't spank your boss. Spank your mistress, if you must.
Do not carry on the failures of the past generations!



Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 7):
I stress again that you should break the chain of violent behaviour toward little children. I've done that for my part. It's also illegant in this country. Bringing up a balanced child does not require violent parenting, on the contrary.



Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 17):
At least in my generation and in my country kids are not spanked, fortunately the lawmakers have agreed with this policy as well. It is unfortunate if your authority as a mature adult rests on your ability to physically harm your kids, but that might simply be your culture of doing things.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
Parenting is a balancing act...you're always on the edge of that razor- too much, not enough, too firm, not firm enough and sometimes a combination of all of the above depending on the situation, the child, etc.

I realize sometimes it feels that way, but may I suggest you pick a consistent approach. Concentrate on being positive,energetic, but of course when they try to test your will stand firm. For the most part my Kids know what to expect from me. They know what I expect from them and they know how I am going to react if their part is not upheld.
The basics.
1. Chores (just the basics)
2. Grades ( top priority)
3. Activities (music lessons,boy scouts,karate ect.)
4. Lots of fun: going to the park , watching movies , traveling , you have to play with your kids ... ALLOT.
5. Discussing life !! ALLOT. I do not hesitate for a second in talking to them about sex,teen pregnancy ,drugs, raceism , politics. I don't hold back with the ugly details either.

The largest question I have is how are my daughters are going to handle not having a Mothers influence. But it is beyond my control and I just do the best I can. I have gotten used to being the only Dad in the girls clothing department and buying all the cosmetic stuff that girls need !! Sometimes I wish I had 3 boys..

 Wink
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
slider
Posts: 6817
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:50 am

AGM- Don't get me wrong- I am consistent in the message.

Actions have consequences.

Control your emotions.

My boys finish those sentences for me now...

But there are times to be softer in the approach than others. ie: not every rules violation or misdeed equates to a spanking. That was what I meant by a "balancing" act, I realize I wasn't terribly clear with that perhaps.
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:52 am

Slider, this might interest you, but I'm not expecting a comment.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html
http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/pub9036.pdf
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:09 am

Slider , you know every thing I said sure sounds good. Sometimes it does not work like it sounds . But it takes alot of work and patience

How many Boys do you have ... you used plural ?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:49 am

Okay, I have finally found the time to write this. My position on parental control and discipline. What I am about to write is controversial, but it's my postition on the issue. Simply put, as I said, I agree with most of what I wrote in the samples in my first post, with some reservations. I believe that parenting should be democratic and that children should be as free as possible. But saying that is simplistic; explaining what I mean is more complex. When we think about parental authority, we usually see it as this blanket right/duty to tell your children what to do and impose sanctions if they disobey in order to coerce obedience/chastise disobedience. People in general see this system as necessary and logical. My initial statements would suggest I oppose it. I do, BUT there are a few BUTS to my position. Basically, I don't look at parental authority so generally. I distinguish three broad FIELDS in which parents exercise control over their children:

1) requiring their children to learn to behave like good members of society. This means: getting an education (or if no longer in school, working and contributing to the family expenses), not allowing them to steal, assault others, call others names, break other people's property etc. Expecting reasonable politeness, expecting that children behave respectfully to people around them. In short, teaching and enforcing public morality and what pertains to civilized living with other people.

2) making decisions about the child's health and safety and expecting the child's co-operation regarding rules on this.

3) imposing a lifestyle and practices relating to a) the parents' values and tastes (ideology, opinions, personal likes and dislikes), things ranging from style of clothing worn to religion practiced. b) imposing the same, but as parents see social custom requiring such pracices/ideology.

In the case of 1), my opinion is very clear. Parents in law/society as per my philosophy would retain control in this kind of matter, and parents would have the right and duty to teach their children not to do these things and exercise reasonable discipline over them in this matter.

In the case of 2), however, parental control would exist, but in a far more limited form than today. There would be a period of "limited control" in the child's life, where the parent would be able, purely for the child's good, to exercise some control over the child's freedom. However this would mainly be for matters of life and death or serious issues for health and welfare. Even a baby would have more freedom than a child now does. For example, parents could give consent to vital medical treatment the child doesn't want, but not force the child to undegro orthodontia. The period of "limited control" would not last until the child was 18, legally end somewhere around the child's twelfth year, and even before, the child could go to court and ask to be declared "of full legal capacity", I.E. to prove him or herself mature enough to make all decisions independent of parents. Teenagers would therefore be considered fully responsible for making their own decisions, and younger children far more so than today.

And in the case of 3), parents would have no control over the child. They could advise and teach the child, but the child could choose to reject the parent's values and ideologies, and act as a total nonconformist, choose its appearance, etc. As long as he/she acted according to public morality.

This is my position statement and I know it's radical. I will comment more on it later.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Duke (Reply 38):
I believe that parenting should be democratic and that children should be as free as possible.

Good luck, friend. When your children turn out to be spoiled incorrigible brats, remember you were warned.

Quoting Duke (Reply 38):
In short, teaching and enforcing public morality and what pertains to civilized living with other people.

How are you going to "enforce" your lessons when you believe that parenting should be democratic and children should be free?

Quoting Duke (Reply 38):
making decisions about the child's health and safety and expecting the child's co-operation regarding rules on this

 rotfl  You are going "expect" your children's cooperation? Did you forget about all the time YOU challenged your parents authority while growing up?

Quoting Duke (Reply 38):
And in the case of 3), parents would have no control over the child.

And I suspect you will be successful - in that you will have NO control over your children. Children are immature. Your expectation that they will be able to differentiate between the absolute freedom you plan to give them in category #3 and your control in category #1 is naive in the extreme.

Good luck, though. You're gonna need it.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:55 am

Nope, I'm not naive enough to believe in any of those things. I would be a thoroughly conservative parent.
 
duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

RE: Any Liberal Parenting Views Out There?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:00 am

Hals120, here is the way that a parent can enforce discipline without using traditional punitive methods:

1. You teach your child right from wrong.

2. You teach your child that there are consequences for their actions. Consequences are not punishment (I.E. imposed sanctions like, you said a bad word so I will spank you), they are making a child take responsibility for their actions. Non-punitive disciplinary consequences can be divided into:
a) natural consequences: nothing is imposed but the child is allowed to experience the negative result of the situation. For example, a child keeps forgetting to pack its lunch. The next time this happens, the parents do not take the lunch to school for the child. Instead, they let the child go hungry and see that if you don´t take care of yourself, the world will not cater to you.

b) logical consequences: imposed consequences that make the child undo, repair or otherwise take responsibility for their actions: these are not punishments as they are not imposed as a sanction (I.E. you did wrong so I will make you suffer), but rather making the child responsible. For example: if you call someone a bad name, you have to listen to a firm (but respectful) lecture on why this is wrong. If you said it to the person´s face, you have to apologise to him or her. If you break a window, you have to help fix it. If you use an object to destroy things around the house, you will not be allowed to use that object until you are more responsible. If you steal, you have to return the object to the store and apologise. And so on.

I advocate disciplining by using such consequences and resorting to punishment (and then never corporal or other degrading or extreme punishment) only as a last resort, mainly if the child repeatedly offends against a serious offence or does not want to submit to a logical consequence (I.E. you have a choice, either apologize or you cannot go out tonight, whatever).

3. Parents should try to make the environment such that it does not "tempt" children. If you don´t want your children to break something, put it high up, for example.

If a child is endangering itself, there are other ways to respond than to spank. For example, if a child runs onto the street, showing your alarm and worry (not anger) at his behaviour very clearly and at the same moment can make an impression on the child. You don´t have to slap the child.

In Sweden, parents have since the passage of the 1979 anti-spanking law learned to effectively discipline their children without it. In a fairly recent survey only 11% thought spanking a necessary thing whereas pre-1979 they would have said things such as the above posts.

I do not believe any "look how good I turned out" stories can justify corporal or other degrading and draconian punishment. It might have been other things in the parents´ discipline that were so effective and even if with strict and harsh punishment one manages to basically bully a child into behaving, the ends do not justify the means. There are other ways of doing it. But people set in their ways do not want to change.

I will comment on other issues later.

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