BN747
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British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:53 am

The image/cover...

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/

The story...

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news1.shtml

I just saw the footage of this on CNN! I thought America Law Enforcement had the market cornered on beating the snot outta people 'while the cameras are rolling'! And I've come believe the British (as of late anyway) were more tolerant and patient when facing civil disobedience. The scenes showing now are reminiscent of the British Troops beating the snot out of protesting Indians of the 1940s. Or Israeli troops brutalizing Palestinian teens (any given minute)... I'm fully aware of what we'd see if Pakistani 'crowd control' or brutality cases were video taped, or those in many 3rd world countries. But isn't there suppose to some divide that seperates us from what a Bolivian Terror Suad would do? Or are we really not all that different?

But this is happening in this day and age is a sign of 'no matter how much progress... we continue to take the 'animal' with us... I give up.


BN747

[Edited 2006-02-13 00:15:15]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Cadet57
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:54 am

Remember the old adadge? INNOCENT unit proven guilty. So they allegedly kicked the snot out of the teens. Until a Military court proves them guilty, im sticking to that.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
KSYR
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:00 am

What happened to reporting news and not opinion? That was a bad article which in turn makes me not think too highly of the paper.

I'll have to wait to see what other reputable sources say about the incident before jumping to any conclusions.
 
BN747
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British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
Remember the old adadge? INNOCENT unit proven guilty. So they allegedly kicked the snot out of the teens. Until a Military court proves them guilty, im sticking to that.

Whattaya tryin' to do???? Dethrone me as the worse speller on A.net??? It's 'adage' and 'until'

And agree.. until it can be proven the camera did not see what it recorded.. although it was recorded by one of soldiers who thought it would be 'cool'...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Cadet57
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 3):
It's 'adage' and 'until'

well excuse me  sarcastic 

Quoting BN747 (Reply 3):
until it can be proven the camera did not see what it recorded.. although it was recorded by one of soldiers who thought it would be 'cool'...

Same as every court case in the democratic world, Just because it was caught on tape, does not mean the accused will be found guilty.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
LSPA
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:34 am

the commentator is just sick. how can you say sh*t like that.
~reach for the sky!
 
highpeaklad
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:55 am

Apparently the footage is about 2 years old. I can understand why these things happen, after all the soldiers have a lot of shit to put up with, but it is still completely unacceptable, and if the tape is not a hoax the soldiers should be court martialled.

However as long as the USA continues to use torture routinely I can see how these soldiers might think its OK for them too.

I know that Condoleeza Rice has specifically banned "torture" by US operatives, but that overlooks the fact that the US defines torture as physical punishment which risks the death of the detainee. This means that techniques such as putting the detainees head under water so they think they will drown is still considered OK . In most other countries, the UK included, torture would be considered to be any form of physical or mental punishment.

Chris
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Klaus
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting Highpeaklad (Reply 6):
I know that Condoleeza Rice has specifically banned "torture" by US operatives

More correctly, they "banned" torture...!  gnasher 
 
EMBQA
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:09 am

While not condoning the event...

First, it occured over 2 years ago....
It was a very different climate in Iraqi at that time....

the commentator is just sick. how can you say sh*t like that.

Easy... he was the one that egged them on to beat up the kids for throwing the rocks at the soldiers...!!

[Edited 2006-02-13 01:12:06]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Leezyjet
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:11 am

They got a bit of a minor beating, so what. What happened to them was alot better than what the Israellis have done in the same situation, they have been known to open fire on the crowd, but thats ok !!.

What they got in that video was a bit of a kicking, thats it. It's all blown out of proportion partly due to the commentry.

That sort of violence happens almost every Friday and Saturday night in towns and cities around the world.

The "BullSh!t of the World" is just out to sell sensationalist rubbish once again. I wouldn't believe 90% of the cr@p they write.

 Smile
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
First, it occured over 2 years ago....

It's irrelevant whether it happened 2 years ago or 2 months ago, this type of thuggish behaviour belongs to the school playground. Not only that, it is likely to damage the good name of the British army around the world, but more importantly amongst Iraqi's, whose country we still occupy.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
It was a very different climate in Iraqi at that time....

And how does this make any difference? A professional soldier has to show restraint in certain situations. These soldiers kicked and beat the living daylights out of a few Iraqi teenagers, let's stop pretending it didn't happen and making excuses. Launch an investigation, identify the culprits and bang them up in prison.

It might be a isolated incident, but it's great propaganda for the suicide bombers and insurgents.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Leezyjet
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 10):
It might be a isolated incident, but it's great propaganda for the suicide bombers and insurgents

Because rags like the News of the World help make it out to be much worse than what it actually is.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
BN747
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 10):
It might be a isolated incident, but it's great propaganda for the suicide bombers and insurgents.

Not only that, the same kids do return as snipers, suicide bombers and those planting roadside bombs. And soon afterwards, the same crowd who says 'it's no big deal' turn and ask.. why do we bother 'trying to help these people?"


BN747
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
Because rags like the News of the World help make it out to be much worse than what it actually is.

No doubt they do, but we have clear video footage here, which is a good start in any future prosecution.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
BN747
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:49 am

Wow.. it's amazing they keep this video a secret for TWO years!!! And this from a disgruntled whistle-blower..what did they do to piss him off.. they're NOW realizing whatever it was.. wasn't worth it!

Makes you wonder.. what's out there waiting to surface next?

BN747
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mrmeangenes
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:01 am

BN747, I must say I am amazed to see you criticizing British troops.

Don't you generally reserve most of your criticism for your own countrymen,your own nation, your own flag ?

 Wow!
gene
 
EMBQA
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 10):
And how does this make any difference?

Easy big guy... I just stated two facts... period.

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 10):
Launch an investigation, identify the culprits and bang them up in prison



Nice... Automatically guilty... just who has the closed mind here
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
BN747
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White Americans And Crystal Meth

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 15):
BN747, I must say I am amazed to see you criticizing British troops.

Don't you generally reserve most of your criticism for your own countrymen,your own nation, your own flag ?

Jeez, and I thought only Halls120 (and his Dept. of Justice crew) and DL021 keep an eye on my unpatriotic bitchings.

I guess the disappointment comes on the heels of holding the British (modern Britian anyway... soccer fans excluded of course) in such high regard.. across the board (from BA on down).


The Japanese had better look out... They could be next.

BN747

[Edited 2006-02-13 02:21:33]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:45 pm

I thought all Armies were the same  Smile
Unless the entire story is known,no point taking sides.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
I thought America Law Enforcement had the market cornered on beating the snot outta people 'while the cameras are rolling'!

Only in California.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):
Jeez, and I thought only Halls120 (and his Dept. of Justice crew) and DL021 keep an eye on my unpatriotic bitchings.

Whatsamatter, don't I get any credit.

It's a two year old incident.


Let me see if I get this right.

The civilians started the fight.

The soldiers finished the fight.

Did I miss something?

Helluva source you use as well BN747.

From the article:

The horrifying scenes on these pages will shock the world and ignite a huge military scandal.
Well, where's the shock? Where's the "huge Military Scandal"???  sarcastic 

The whole article reaks of melodramatacism . . . .

I certainly don't condone torture and unjust treatment, but I'm inclined to think if I'm attacked - even by a teenager - especially with a grenade - I'm going to fight back.

Period.

OK - cue the "ANCFlyer is Racist" crap from again.
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N1120A
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:58 pm

Well, perhaps this will inspire someone to write an Iraqi national anthem, much like what happened in Iran in 1944 when an American soldier beat the piss out of a grocer.
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L-188
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

You know, I have seen a lot of teens that really could use a good clobbering.
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QANTAS077
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:03 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
Because rags like the News of the World help make it out to be much worse than what it actually is.

are you serious? made out to be worse than it is...not sure you could get much worse then something like this!

'His captor releases the headlock, stands him up and—with combat helmet on and visor down—lands a crushing head butt. He rips the youngster's T-shirt over his head and smashes his right fist twice into his kidneys and once into his head.'

especially from those who are supposed to be protecting civilians.
 
ual777
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 22):
'His captor releases the headlock, stands him up and—with combat helmet on and visor down—lands a crushing head butt. He rips the youngster's T-shirt over his head and smashes his right fist twice into his kidneys and once into his head.'

especially from those who are supposed to be protecting civilians.

Be aware that this is a tabloid rag. There is probably much more than what they show. The guys throwing rocks and "probably esplosives" just got their shit handed to em.

Good job Brits....I bet that will be the last time they throw rocks at an army base.
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BN747
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Helluva source you use as well BN747.

From the article:

The horrifying scenes on these pages will shock the world and ignite a huge military scandal.
Well, where's the shock? Where's the "huge Military Scandal"???   

The whole article reaks of melodramatacism . . . .

I certainly don't condone torture and unjust treatment, but I'm inclined to think if I'm attacked - even by a teenager - especially with a grenade - I'm going to fight back.

Period.

OK - cue the "ANCFlyer is Racist" crap from again.

Whatever...

Come back and chime in after you've seen the CNN Video.. it prompted me to start the post. After searching their site for a link.. to no avail, I caught a 2nd CNN broadcast and it featured the News of the World' cover story. As in TODAY'S cover story.

And to put the 'two years ago' story timeline into context...

The story is NEW, the event is TWO YEARS OLD. Why?

Because of the participants (who felt wronged for whatevevr reason) outted the rest by bring for the video TODAY!

So no one's pulling a ClipperHawaii and drudging up old sh*t for the sake of sensationalism and pumping smoke up keesters.

BN747
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Klaus
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:45 pm

They showed a pretty long segment of the tape in our late evening news.

It is quite clear that they were not "fighting" or doing anything harmless. They dragged several men behind a wall and then brutally beat them up while the guy operating the camera made unbelievably cynical remarks about the whole scene.

There is no excuse for it, and it only blackens the occupation further.
 
BN747
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 25):
They showed a pretty long segment of the tape in our late evening news.

It is quite clear that they were not "fighting" or doing anything harmless. They dragged several men behind a wall and then brutally beat them up while the guy operating the camera made unbelievably cynical remarks about the whole scene.

There is no excuse for it, and it only blackens the occupation further.

We didn't see that much here (at least I didn't)... but CNN says theye were teens not men.. who were throw rocks at them (the troops).

But the pummeling of them was way outta line! Way outta line (by western standards that is)!

BN747
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ANCFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
Come back and chime in after you've seen the CNN Video..

"""** Chime **"""

Saw the CNN video this afternoon . . . way before this nonsensical, tabloid citing thread of yours.

Didn't appreciate the fact these soldiers beat the civilians then, and I don't appreciate it now.

Your attempt to sensationalize something that is two years old because of your incessantly bitter anti-everygawdamnthing attitude has failed to inspire me to do anything other than laugh at you.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 26):
But the pummeling of them was way outta line! Way outta line (by western standards that is)!

And I agree with you . . . to a point.

Once the threat was subdued the beating could have stopped.

Calling the entire episode wrong is ignorant. You've never been there (there being a combat zone) I'm sure. I find it constantly amazing what the Arm Chair Generals here "think" ought to happen when they've never been under attack . . . be it by a group of teenagers or an enemy tank.

Let me say this again . . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
I certainly don't condone torture and unjust treatment,

. . .

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 10):
It might be a isolated incident, but it's great propaganda for the suicide bombers and insurgents.

And the anti-military, anti-war crowd on A-Net.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
N1120A
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:08 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Quoting BN747 (Thread starter):
I thought America Law Enforcement had the market cornered on beating the snot outta people 'while the cameras are rolling'!

Only in California.

Not to mention Louisiana

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
And the anti-military, anti-war crowd on A-Net.

Those 2 are not mutually inclusive
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
And the anti-military, anti-war crowd on A-Net.

Those 2 are not mutually inclusive

Neither are "Muslim" and "Terrorist"...yet they sure seem to go hand-in-hand pretty often, wouldn't you say?  Wink
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N1120A
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:33 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
Neither are "Muslim" and "Terrorist"...yet they sure seem to go hand-in-hand pretty often, wouldn't you say?

Only in the media. There are terrorists out there of all persuasions, fortunately they are not the majority in any of them
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wrighbrothers
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:48 pm

And you're surprised ?
They situation out in Iraq is hot (and I'm not talking about the temperature)
They have a risk everyday of being killed or blown up by a roadside bomb everyday ,and as if that isn't bad enough , the Iraqi's are starting to turn on them, they want them out.

I'm not saying this was right, because it's not, It's unacceptable, and if found guilty they should be punished to the maximum,
But until we can prove that the footage is genuine (remember the fake picture of a British soldier urinating on an 'Iraqi' ?) we should keep an open mind, and remember just how bad the situation can get sometimes.
I mean, why would they only release the footage now ?, TWO years after it (allegedly) happened ?

Wrighbrothers
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Klaus
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Calling the entire episode wrong is ignorant.

So what could be a valid reason to severely beat an obviously subdued and defenseless person? The men / boys had obviously been subdued already before they were dragged behind the wall to be beaten to a pulp.

Of course I'm not a soldier myself, but to this civilian that's simply excessive brutality and unprofessional behaviour if there is no immediate self-protection involved.

Corps loyalty can be a good thing, but condoning excesses like that can't serve any valid purpose as far as I can see. Especially none that could compensate the devastating consequences of such actions.
 
Gary2880
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:04 pm

so this happend 2 years ago. 2 years without those thugs being reprimanded for their actions. 2 years without anyone stopping them from doing it again.

if your dumb enough to do something wrong, and even dumber to let someone film you while you do it. You should suffer the consequences. no better than happy slapping here in the uk where chavs go around beating the shit out of people filming it on their mobile phones for their own sick pleasure. then in turn are convicted using the footage that they filmed in the first place. odd how some people are determined to tie their own noose.


sorry if that was spelt all wrong, spell check is broken again but i googled my little heart out to correct it best i could.
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BN747
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Once the threat was subdued the beating could have stopped.

It should have NEVER happened.

If you replay every OUT OF PROPORTION and UNJUST military on civilian action ever to occur, this is proof enough that we've made no advancement whatsoever on that front. THAT is not winning the 'hearts and minds' of the civilians.. they people of Iraq saw that video TODAY TOO. And they didn't know it happened 2 years ago.. some probably thought the teens were exaggerating and bullshit.. NOW they know they're not.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Calling the entire episode wrong is ignorant. You've never been there (there being a combat zone) I'm sure. I find it constantly amazing what the Arm Chair Generals here "think" ought to happen when they've never been under attack . . . be it by a group of teenagers or an enemy tank.

'I'm sure' as if you know something I don't, I've said so a million time here, so don't break that arm patting yourself on the back. Secondly, we've seen enough military vs civilian situations here in the US (Kent State to LA Riots and any Sports Celebration activity) to know that people are gonna throw sh*t. And we see how the best handle it.. and the worst. So I don't need to go Iraq to understand chasing down and beating up a bunch of unarmed teens who were throwing rocks. I've got enough combat-experienced people in my life to fill a neighborhood, I. like a whole lot of others, don't need YOUR military background and experiences to tell us what we are seeing is RIGHT or WRONG. Most of us know that there's two sides to every story,but this story is like 'the teens that were on trial in Orange County, for drugging and raping a co-ed and videotaping it.' Then saying it isn't what it seems. YOU doing exactly that right NOW, telling us we aren't seeing what we just saw.

If they were throwing piss ballons balloons for a week at these armed soldiers.. it doesn't warrant them going after them in this fashion. Just arrest them and be done with it. The parents seeing video of their kids throwing rocks at them would cool their jets WHEN the parents came to jail to protest their Arrest. And a few days in the cooler will give them something to think about. But it begs the question, if your land was occupied, would you resort to creating a disturbance... or would you sit back and take it? I vote YOU for sitting back and taking it.

And speaking of 'acting like they know'.... the FEMA, the State of Louisiana,Alabama, Mississippi and the US Federal Government should just sit back and place YOU incharged of the next flood-potential Metropolis... because you seem to think you KNOW EVERYTHING that went wrong there..and only YOU.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):And the anti-military, anti-war crowd on A-Net.
Those 2 are not mutually inclusiv

Well they are when they're not singing his tune.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
So what could be a valid reason to severely beat an obviously subdued and defenseless person?

Klaus, read this . . . it should answer your question . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):

Once the threat was subdued the beating could have stopped.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
but condoning excesses like that can't serve any valid purpose as far as I can see.

And read this my friend . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
I certainly don't condone torture and unjust treatment



Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
If you replay every OUT OF PROPORTION and UNJUST military on civilian action ever to occur, this is proof enough that we've made no advancement whatsoever on that front.

Utter, complete, total nonsense. Really. Do you honestly believe this? Really??? Incredible. What I'm hearing is the military, through the ages, hasn't progressed in it's treatment of civilians? Is that what you're saying here? Laughable . . . really!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
I've said so a million time here, so don't break that arm patting yourself on the back.

No worries - where you're concerned, that's not an issue . . . you handle that for me all by yourself.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Most of us know that there's two sides to every story,

Actually, there are always THREE sides to every story BN . . . what one person says happened; what the other person says happened; and what really happened. Therein lies the dilema - how much of all three make up the truth?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Then saying it isn't what it seems. YOU doing exactly that right NOW, telling us we aren't seeing what we just saw.

Nooooo, that was WrightBrothers saying that . . . need to get your shit together there BN, you're starting to quote the wrong people . . . see here . . . read it for yourself. . . .

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):
But until we can prove that the footage is genuine (remember the fake picture of a British soldier urinating on an 'Iraqi' ?) we should keep an open mind, and remember just how bad the situation can get sometimes.



Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
And speaking of 'acting like they know'.... the FEMA, the State of Louisiana,Alabama, Mississippi and the US Federal Government should just sit back and place YOU incharged of the next flood-potential Metropolis... because you seem to think you KNOW EVERYTHING that went wrong there..and only YOU.

Why, thank you BN . . . thank you very much.

And that would be two words. . . . in and charge . . .

Getting    again are we?

[Edited 2006-02-13 11:46:29]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Banco
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:33 pm

There's no army in the world immune from occasional outbreaks of behaviour like this. No matter how well trained, no matter how much its unacceptability is drummed in, occasionally where soldiers are put in envirinments like Iraq, it will happen.

The British Army might well be a highly disciplined and well-trained force, but they aren't immune any more than any other armed force is.

So, all anyone can do when it occurs is to investigate, and if guilt is determined, punish the culprits, whilst AGAIN re-inforcing the point that such conduct is not acceptable.

We can all have some sympathy for the pressures troops find themselves under, and those of us at home can certainly not imagine ourselves in the same situation. Nevertheless, whilst that might be a partial explanation, it is not, and never can be, an excuse.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Matt27
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Let me see if I get this right.

The civilians started the fight.

The soldiers finished the fight.

Did I miss something?

I think the US started the fight in the invasion in March 2003. I understand that they are upset, when foreign countries are invading and then tell them how to live.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
I certainly don't condone torture and unjust treatment, but I'm inclined to think if I'm attacked - even by a teenager - especially with a grenade - I'm going to fight back.

Would you also almost kill the teenager, and have your friends film it and laugh at it?
Man ska inte dricka rödvin i en vit hall.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting Matt27 (Reply 37):
Would you also almost kill the teenager, and have your friends film it and laugh at it?

Geez, let me reprint this AGAIN for those that skim posts:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Once the threat was subdued the beating could have stopped.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Klaus
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
Klaus, read this . . . it should answer your question . . .

I have no problems with that part of your post, but...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Calling the entire episode wrong is ignorant. You've never been there (there being a combat zone) I'm sure. I find it constantly amazing what the Arm Chair Generals here "think" ought to happen when they've never been under attack . . . be it by a group of teenagers or an enemy tank.

...this did in fact raise a few concerns for me.

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
There's no army in the world immune from occasional outbreaks of behaviour like this.

Unfortunately true. And it has very little if anything to do with the army's country of origin. But the tone and rules of engagement set by the political and military leadership will certainly make a difference in whether the more thuggishly inclined servicemen and -women will restrain themselves or not...
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:15 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Let me see if I get this right.

The civilians started the fight.

The soldiers finished the fight.

Did I miss something?

No, you didn't

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Well, where's the shock? Where's the "huge Military Scandal"???

There is none, its all tabloid sensationalism. The NOTW is a shite paper anyway.




My View on the situation....

If some guy had thrown a grenade at me (and missed) then I caught up with him afterwards, sure I'd kick the shit out of him for doing so, but not to the extent as what happened here.

Ok, now I'm ready to get flamed by all those of you that disagree with me  Angry



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
Banco
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Unfortunately true. And it has very little if anything to do with the army's country of origin. But the tone and rules of engagement set by the political and military leadership will certainly make a difference in whether the more thuggishly inclined servicemen and -women will restrain themselves or not...

Indeed. And given the British Army's long experience of peacekeeping and urban warfare, I'm quite sure part of the reaction to this is a feeling (and not just in the UK either) that if any army was likely to be above it, the British Army were.

But they aren't, and never have been. The only thing they can say is that they've always been virulently opposed to such conduct and do keep it to a minimum.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
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n229nw
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:29 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
THAT is not winning the 'hearts and minds' of the civilians.. they people of Iraq saw that video TODAY TOO. And they didn't know it happened 2 years ago.. some probably thought the teens were exaggerating and bullshit.. NOW they know they're not.

 checkmark 

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
If you replay every OUT OF PROPORTION and UNJUST military on civilian action ever to occur, this is proof enough that we've made no advancement whatsoever on that front.

But that is just wrong. Time was when miliatary conquest always involved a completely free reign given to soldiers to murder all the men, gang-rape all the women, and terrorize all the children in the areas they were.

These actions persist even more recently. Look at the militias terrorizing black towns in Sudan. They are doing the above actions daily. Even among organized armies, some of this still goes on: Look at how the Soviet army behaved in central Asia. Most armies are far worse than the US and UK.

Also, in this case (the video) the soldiers were actually attacked. That is already a difference.

All of this means that standards are pretty high in the US and European military (and btw, Leezyjet, in the Israeli military as well).

HOWEVER, being less bad than someone else doesn't mean you aren't being bad. None of the above makes this action by these soldiers right or acceptable. Especially since we invaded a sovereign country for our own gain.

The point for me is that we shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place, because ANY occupation results in such actions from time to time. That happens when you put young men under the tremendous pressures of war.

The least that should be done (and will be I hope and believe) is a thorough investigation and prosecution here. Unfortunately the damage is done on the "hearts and minds" front, as BN said.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:29 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 19):
Only in California.

Oh c'mon ANC...you mean to tell me you've never gotten a little heavy handed with an Elk or a Bison that has given you a hard time?

I see the usual Monday morning quarterbacks are out in force. Yes, the tape is disturbing but give PM Blair some time to at least look into the incident before charging and convicting the Brits involved.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
Klaus, read this . . . it should answer your question . . .

I have no problems with that part of your post, but...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Calling the entire episode wrong is ignorant. You've never been there (there being a combat zone) I'm sure. I find it constantly amazing what the Arm Chair Generals here "think" ought to happen when they've never been under attack . . . be it by a group of teenagers or an enemy tank.

...this did in fact raise a few concerns for me.

My point here Klaus isl, as I'm sure you know, I suspect BN747 - and likely a few others - would have preferred we let the hand grenade, bottle thorwing, stick wielding little hoodlums just pass on by . . .

I don't condone the excessive beating - but I would just as quickly be concerned if these soldiers had let themselves be attacked and simply ignored it.

Did everyone except myself and BMIFlyer miss the part about the hand grenade????  scratchchin 

In all honesty - and within the scope of the Law of Land Warfare, the UK troops could have shot and killed every damn on of 'em - a grenade is, afterall a weapon with a little more punch the sticks, stones and bottles!

And yes, I mean every word when I say I tire of the Arm Chair Generals in here second guessing troops in a situation said Arm Chair General cannot possibly even imagine.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 43):
you mean to tell me you've never gotten a little heavy handed with an Elk or a Bison that has given you a hard time?

The occasional Caribou maybe - we've no elk up here . . .  wink 

Hey, ummm no offense with that "Only in California" thing, eh.  wink  laughing 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:47 pm

Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
Banco
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:09 pm

The RMP have arrested someone:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708866.stm
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:13 pm

From the article:

"He called for Iraqis to take part in the investigation, adding that any soldiers found to be responsible "must compensate those victims and apologise to them directly".

Will the offending youths be required to apologize for hurling the bottles, sticks, stones - oh, and the grenade?

Just a rhetorical question of course . . . I already know the answer.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gary2880
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
Will the offending youths be required to apologize for hurling the bottles, sticks, stones - oh, and the grenade?

guess it would depend if they hurt any of the trained soldiers wearing helmets and bullet proof vests in the same way the aforementioned people hurt the teenagers in short sleeved shirts....
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
FLVILLA
Posts: 316
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RE: British Troops Clobber Iraq Teens On Video

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:48 pm

I have also seen the video and think it is a terrible thing that those soldiers did no matter what but at the moment we don't know the full story so I'll wait for the full story.

But what does annoy me is the News of the World for bringing it up 2 years later ! I mean lets be honest, what did they hope to achieve ? Well we all know what they wanted, a few more newspapers to sell basically and to stir the pot. So they kept it for two years, and the first other media outlet to get an interview with News Of the World editor was....... Sky News ! Fellow News Corporation company ! Sorry guys but its all too coincidental that this was kept in house for so long and now they decide, what was wrong with taking this information straight to MoD ? Tell them what you've got, give them a copy of everything and then let it be re-assured of a proper investigation etc. Yes I can understand that as freedom of the press they have every right to tell the world what they've found but what's it achieved ? More backlash probably. I just think things like this can be done in a better manner personally on the papers part.

FLVILLA
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