BMIFlyer
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Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:43 pm

She's not doing good, she was shot in the stomach, but below where her body armour offers protection  Sad

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4711268.stm


Let us hope she pulls thru, and that they catch the person responsible, soon.



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:50 pm

The obvious questions: Could she return fire? Did she have that option? Bottom line: Was she armed? Where was her partner?

In any event, I hope she recovers. And I hope they capture the bastard and he spends the maximum time behind bars.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Could she return fire?

No

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Did she have that option?

No weapon

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Was she armed?

No

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Where was her partner?

He/She attended the call with her, but as we can see, the article doesn't mention anything else.


On a side note, Nottingham is notorious for gun crime, thank god I don't live there.



Lee

*Edited, for my mistake*

[Edited 2006-02-14 12:57:54]
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cornish
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
On a side note, Nottingham is notorious for gun crime, thank god I don't live there.

Possibly the worst place in Britain for it now - and Nottinghamshire police have also been heavily criticised for their failure to deal with crime in the county.

[Edited 2006-02-14 13:00:33]
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itsjustme
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:57 pm

Yes, what is the latest on officers in the UK being armed (with more than a club)?

Best wishes for her full, and quick recovery and the apprehension of those responsible.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:58 pm

EDIT - removed text went here . . .

As for her being unarmed and answering a burglary call . . . well, no need for me to expound on my feelings on that subject . . . I will simply raise my   .

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
On a side note, Nottingham is notorious for gun crime, thank god I don't live there.

All the more reason she should have been armed.

Way to go UK . . . your law against arming your police officers has perhaps killed another one . . .

Yes, I know - I'm about to get blasted over this - fire at will boyz and girlz.

EDIT: Dangit, edited for BMIFlyers edit . . .  crazy 

[Edited 2006-02-14 13:02:17]
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shamrock350
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
I presume she had one, as she was only a trainee, surely we don't like trainee officers out alone??

She did and they both had body amour on.
Thank God she is in a stable condition.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):

Yes, I know - I'm about to get blasted over this - fire at will boyz and girlz.

And bring enough ammo for two targets. UK's "blind eye" way of looking at gun crimes will do nothing but continue to put their law enforcement officers in grave danger.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
EDIT: Dangit, edited for BMIFlyers edit . . .

My sincere apologies, for speed reading the article, and missing an important bit out  Wink
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:13 pm

You know what, this might have not even happened if she and her partner were armed. Three things could have stopped it:

1. The suspect wouldn't have even chanced shooting at her in the first place for fear of getting in a shoot-out with well trained police. But knowing she's unarmed he took the chance because he knew she couldn't shoot back.

2. The officer managed to draw her weapon on the suspect before he had a chance to point his at hers.

3. She or her partner could have shot him in self defense if she felt her life was in danger.

Of course there's going to be lots of "coulda woulda shoulda" and the above scenarios might not have happened anyway, but IMO She would have had a few more options had she and her partner been armed.

If gun crime is on the rise in the UK, then there needs to be more armed officers. I can't believe with the level of crime in the UK (higher than Canada, and our police are armed) that unarmed officers are sent to burglary calls etc.

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777236ER
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:37 pm

Police officers are in grave danger by the very nature of their job. That being said, more innocent people were killed by police officers last year than police officers were killed by firearms.

Police officers themselves don't want to be universally armed, there isn't a big gun culture here and violent crime and crime levels overall is falling.
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whitehatter
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
All the more reason she should have been armed.

followed by

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):

Police officers themselves don't want to be universally armed, there isn't a big gun culture here and violent crime and crime levels overall is falling.

That should be enough to end this fruitless discussion. If they need guns, they have access to them. But the police do not want universal gun carrying.

Would she have been shot if she was armed? Yes, probably. In fact she would have had more chance of being killed as the burglar would have shot to kill first time.
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itsjustme
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
That being said, more innocent people were killed by police officers last year than police officers were killed by firearms.

That sounds to me like a training or, more appropriately, lack of training issue, rather than an argument against arming police officers.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11):
In fact she would have had more chance of being killed as the burglar would have shot to kill first time.

Hatter, that's not necessarily true . . . . an armed officer, approaching a subject, with a weapon already unholstered, present a lot less desireable target than one wearing only an apparently inadequate vest.

That said: I know this discussion on armed officers in the UK will go no where. You're absolutely right. That horse was killed dead over and over when the last young police officer was shot and killed in the UK several months ago . . .

The focus should be on hope this young woman pulls through and survives to continue to serve Nottinghamshire.
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miamiair
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:06 pm

The saying is true, "When guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns."

Knowing that the cops aren't armed is carte blanche for criminals who have the temperament to commit armed crimes to have a field day. Thsnk you very much, but I will keep my guns and my right to carry them (in my state, and others depending on the law).

In this day and age, with terrorism being a big thing, vigilance and a radio only goes so far. If my rear end is going into the line of fire, I want to be able to fire back.
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whitehatter
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
That said: I know this discussion on armed officers in the UK will go no where. You're absolutely right. That horse was killed dead over and over when the last young police officer was shot and killed in the UK several months ago . . .

It's a valid duscussion point, but the British police are saying quite clearly that they don't want to carry guns for EXACTLY the reason I gave.

It is their opinion that more cops would die if they went about armed on a day-to-day basis. The British police have Armed Response Units available 24/7 which cover areas on a tactical basis, meaning ironmongery can be on site within minutes. But individual officers neither need nor want then hanging off their belts.

On this I am happy to go with their views. It has nothing to do with civilian gun ownership laws as the police are not covered by that. I'm also not going to hide behind posturing or anything like that, just defer to those who are in a better position to know about these things than I am.

We do have armed police. If they need shooters, they have access and training available to them. Some police officers walk round airports with Heckler and Koch submachine guns constantly, and have done for years. On the streets, they themselves have stated that they think guns create more of a problem than they solve.

[Edited 2006-02-14 14:16:20]
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):
The British police have Armed Response Units available 24/7 which cover areas on a tactical basis, meaning ironmongery can be on site within minutes.

Which obviously was plenty quick in this case, right?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):
But individual officers neither need nor want then hanging off their belts.

And certainly, that is their choice and we all respect their right to choose. You just have to wonder that if the particular officer who was shot could go back and change her choice.... would she?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
whitehatter
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:26 pm

Nice the way in which you selectively quoted and missed this part

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):
On the streets, they themselves have stated that they think guns create more of a problem than they solve.

Laws of debate: You can argue from the general to the particular, but not from the particular to the general. Which means this is irrelevant

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 16):
You just have to wonder that if the particular officer who was shot could go back and change her choice.... would she?

But under the circumstances, she probably would not after thinking about it. As in the opinion of the police, she may have been shot fatally first time. That's what they believe, and I'll go with their informed opinion.
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itsjustme
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):


It is their opinion that more cops would die if they went about armed on a day-to-day basis.

I have to wonder if, given yesterday's events, their opinion might be changing. I don't mean that in a casual (ie: smart ass) manner either. I am just saying, how many officers have to be shot before they say enough is enough, we want to be able to protect ourselves when confronted with lethal weapons?
 
Banco
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:39 pm

As hard as it quite clearly is for Americans to comprehend this, it bears repeating again:

The police here DO NOT want to be routinely armed (this should be the end of the debate).

Gun crime is extremely rare in the UK, even now (and incidentally, something like 90% of gun-related incidents refer to replica firearms, not real ones).

Arming the police from the position we are in right now would create more problems and encourage more criminals to carry firearms.

Why is it that so many Americans, with the long standing experience of their own culture, presume to believe that it is the same here? It isn't.

This thread details the shooting of a police officer, some months after the last time it happened, sadly fatally in that case.

How many American police have been shot in that period? Dozens? Hundreds?

Don't try to equate the two countries. In this area they are absolutely nothing like one another, and making such comparisons with how US officers would approach the matter merely betrays ignorance.
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whitehatter
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 18):
I have to wonder if, given yesterday's events, their opinion might be changing. I don't mean that in a casual (ie: smart ass) manner either. I am just saying, how many officers have to be shot before they say enough is enough, we want to be able to protect ourselves when confronted with lethal weapons?

When less police officers get killed in Britain than the USA on a per-officer ratio, then the answer is clearly no.

That is why they believe what they do. If they were armed, then more coppers would be killed. They can point to many years of statistics to back up that argument. Cold, hard statistics which they use to state that if they were armed then more coppers would today be dead.

It isn't my argument. It is the position of the police themselves. They have the experience of decades of real-life policing to put behind their position, and one isolated incident is not going to change that.
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17):
Nice the way in which you selectively quoted and missed this part

It was not my intention to take anything out of context, here ya go....

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):
On the streets, they themselves have stated that they think guns create more of a problem than they solve.



Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):
The British police have Armed Response Units available 24/7 which cover areas on a tactical basis, meaning ironmongery can be on site within minutes.

Which obviously was plenty quick in this case, right?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17):
But under the circumstances, she probably would not after thinking about it. As in the opinion of the police, she may have been shot fatally first time. That's what they believe, and I'll go with their informed opinion.

Making sure to get the full quote there and not just the pertinent portion.... Yes, it's obvious that the shooter in this case was going for a clearly non-lethal shot because it would not have been "fair" to kill a police officer that was not armed. But since she was not armed it was OK to seriously injure with a high probability of death.

You're right, I'm convinced and it can be plainly seen that it was much better that the officer did not have a firearm in this case. You win the debate.

Now, go explain that to her family if she doesn't make it. Make sure you take your White Hat.
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Banco
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 21):
You're right, I'm convinced and it can be plainly seen that it was much better that the officer did not have a firearm in this case. You win the debate.

Right, and no US officer who is armed is ever killed? Don't be idiotic. Things are never that black and white.
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itsjustme
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 20):
It isn't my argument. It is the position of the police themselves. They have the experience of decades of real-life policing to put behind their position, and one isolated incident is not going to change that.

And Hatter, I am not disputing that experience nor am I pretending to know better than those on the job there. I am obviously too Americanized but I cannot fathom being expected to encounter armed criminals without being armed myself, especially when these criminals have proven twice in a matter of months that they won't hesitate to shoot (and kill) a police officer whether he/she is armed or not. That being said, however, as you have pointed out, the officers themselves have said that being armed will only escalate the problem and I respect that.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 15):
It's a valid duscussion point,

I know it is - but we beat this horse up one side and down the other a couple months ago. I understand the UK police officers position . . . and I won't belabor it . . . . as far as I'm concerned the horse is still dead.
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KaiGywer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:03 pm

OK. Before I get flamed, I'm originally from Norway (which is the only other country in Europe which is unarmed), so I have seen both styles of policing.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
and Nottinghamshire police have also been heavily criticised for their failure to deal with crime in the county.

Failure to fight crime due to lack of proper safety measures?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11):
That should be enough to end this fruitless discussion. If they need guns, they have access to them. But the police do not want universal gun carrying.

If you need your gun NOW, you can't go get it or call for backup. "Excuse me Mr. Criminal, would you please wait with shooting me so I can go get my gun? Thank you."

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11):
Would she have been shot if she was armed? Yes, probably. In fact she would have had more chance of being killed as the burglar would have shot to kill first time.

Does it matter if they shoot to kill or shoot to fatally injure? Same outcome. Had she had a gun, she could have shot him first. People listen once they look down the barrel.

Quoting Banco (Reply 22):
Right, and no US officer who is armed is ever killed? Don't be idiotic. Things are never that black and white.

Of course they are. It is one of the dangers of the job, but at least here, they can protect themselves.
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whitehatter
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23):
That being said, however, as you have pointed out, the officers themselves have said that being armed will only escalate the problem and I respect that.

The police here take the position they do not because of any outside pressure but from their experience.

It's their argument that organised criminals have long stated that "if they are armed, then next time so will we be". The same applies to day-to-day policing.

If someone is going to commit an offence and be confronted by an armed police officer, then they are even more likely to take a weapon with them. If they are then confronted by a police officer with a gun, then that criminal is going to shoot to kill first time rather than shoot to wound and escape.

So the British police take the view they do from decades of experience. If they were armed, they would be even more of a target and more of them would today be dead. It's a numbers game which they believe pays off in the end, and the tradeoff is tangible and provable with statistics. No routine guns means less dead coppers.
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Banco
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23):
I cannot fathom being expected to encounter armed criminals without being armed myself,

That's the key point though. The police would neither expect, nor be expected to confront armed criminals. The risk to police officers is much greater from knives than it is from firearms. Criminals here do not routinely carry guns, because the population do not routinely carry guns.

Outside of things like armed airport police, the army and farmers with shotguns, I've never even seen a gun in every day life.
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cornish
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
That's the key point though. The police would neither expect, nor be expected to confront armed criminals. The risk to police officers is much greater from knives than it is from firearms. Criminals here do not routinely carry guns, because the population do not routinely carry guns.

And if we put things into context, the number of officers shot in the UK is VERY small. We've had some terrible incidents like the current one and the one a couple of months ago in Bradford and the traffic cop in Yorkshire a while back.

But these are very isolated incidents. And they make the headlines (of course). but many more police are wounded in stabbings each year. And far more police are killed in road accidents.

So many of these calls for making police carry guns is due to one or two deaths a year - of course they are a tragedy, especially for the families who've lost a loved one, but how many more would be grieving if everyone went round carrying a gun ?
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thai747
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:12 pm

Having lived for 2 years in the student area of Lenton in Nottingham where the shooting took place, I must say that I'm not very surprised given the reputation of the city as the "gun capital of the UK" - can't say I was sad to move out to be honest!

I do remember reading in one of the local papers a while back that the Nottinghamshire police started allowing their police officers to carry firearms when carrying out patrols in certain housing estates after dark (Lenton might have been one of them). According to the opinion poll taken by the paper, and BBC East Midlands if I remember correctly, over half of the police officers in Nottinghamshire would still prefer doing patrols unarmed.

All the best to PC Bown though, hope she pulls through.

[Edited 2006-02-14 15:19:26]
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 26):
It's their argument that organised criminals have long stated that "if they are armed, then next time so will we be".

But how can the criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 26):
If someone is going to commit an offence and be confronted by an armed police officer, then they are even more likely to take a weapon with them. If they are then confronted by a police officer with a gun, then that criminal is going to shoot to kill first time rather than shoot to wound and escape.

But how can the criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 26):
So the British police take the view they do from decades of experience. If they were armed, they would be even more of a target and more of them would today be dead.

But how can the criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
The police would neither expect, nor be expected to confront armed criminals.

But how can criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
The risk to police officers is much greater from knives than it is from firearms.

Then why are knives not being banned?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Banco
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 30):
But how can the criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

How can US police officers possibly get hurt when they carry guns?

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 30):
Then why are knives not being banned?

Knives as an offensive weapon are.


Here's a question:

Hoiw can someone with absolutely no knowledge or experience of the UK whatsoever, but from a country with a murder rate and a gun crime several thousand percent higher than here presume to lecture our own police force on how they should do their jobs?  Yeah sure
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whitehatter
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 30):

But how can the criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

but how can someone with no experience of British policing presume to know their job better than they do?

Grow up.
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cornish
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 30):
But how can criminals possibly be armed with the excellent firearms restrictions that the UK has in place?

And guns are still used in a tiny, tiny proportion of major crime in the UK. What are the proportion of gun crimes in the US and how many officers are shot - i suspect its a FAR higher proportion than in the UK.
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
How can US police officers possibly get hurt when they carry guns?

Nobody EVER said they couldn't. At least they have the tools they need to defend themselves when confronted by potentially lethal force.

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 30):
Then why are knives not being banned?

Knives as an offensive weapon are.

So why are handguns banned? Why are they not only illegal when used as "an offensive weapon"? (your words)

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Hoiw can someone with absolutely no knowledge or experience of the UK whatsoever, but from a country with a murder rate and a gun crime several thousand percent higher than here presume to lecture our own police force on how they should do their jobs?

Not lecturing, just asking. As far as I read, NO ONE so far has given ANY lecture on how the UK should be running it's police force, just asking questions.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 33):
but how can someone with no experience of British policing presume to know their job better than they do?

As far as I read, NO ONE so far has claimed to know how the UK should be running it's police force, just asking questions.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:41 am

Numbers are good, let's look at numbers:

USA
Since 1995

Officers killed by a firearm: 544
Total number of Law Enforcement Officers: 796,518

Ratio: 54.4:796,518 = 1:14641


Sources: Federal Bureau of Investigation, US Dept of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Dept of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics

UK
Since 1995

Officers killed by a firearm: 3
Total number of Law Enforcement Officers: 141,062

Ratio: 0.3:141,062 = 1:470,207

Sources: PoliceMemorial, Wikipedia

*********************************************************

These statistics clearly shows that policing in the US is more dangerous, with 1 out of every 14,641 officers killed, while in the UK, 1 out of 470,207 officers are killed.
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noelg
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 2):
On a side note, Nottingham is notorious for gun crime, thank god I don't live there.

Moving out of that craphole is the best move we ever made. Nottingham is a dangerous place, no doubt about it. I don't like my wife going there alone in the evening, I make her lock the car doors and stay on the phone to me if she has to go there on her own. I won't drive through without locking the doors of the car.

I know one couple that live on the fringes of St Anns, one of the worst parts. She told me she sits on her own crying when her husband is working with her daughter in her arms, while they listen to gunshots coming up the street, and past the house as kids play with firearms.

I can drive you along one road and out of another into Nottingham, and show you several murder scenes, on the main roads alone.

It's madness, in some parts there are prostitutes hanging around on street corners on the main routes into/out of the city in the middle of the day. Mrs G's parents live in one of the nicer parts of the city, yet not long back one of the houses on their street was showered by gunfire, as the owners were the grandparents of someone murdered by gangs, who had provided evidence leading to the criminal's imprisonment. They were later murdered. Mrs G's Mum/Dad are moving out towards our neck of the woods in the countryside to get away from it.

Granted there are some nice parts of the city, but they are far outnumbered by the bad areas.

I don't think you can blame the police officers, they are as p**d off as everyone else (they have to deal with it). The problem is the administration of the police, and when the chief of police for Nottingham said last year that "Crime is out of control in Nottingham and we can't deal with it", it summed it up pretty well.

Best bet - stay the hell away from the place.
 
Gman94
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:13 am

How has the crime in Nottingham become that bad though, nowhere else in the UK seems to have the kind of problems that Nottingham is dealing with.
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noelg
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 38):
How has the crime in Nottingham become that bad though

Nottingham's gang culture takes a lot of the blame for this. There are 2 main gangs in Nottingham from where most of the gun crime comes. One thing just leads to another, but before you know it half the city is overrun with the problem. Gangs move about, loyalties switch, grudges build, and soon anyone linked in some way to a gang is at risk. Gangs breed gangs, smaller sections are created.

The gangs are on the city's two biggest council estates - The Meadows and St Anns. Surrounding these are Radford (scene of today's shooting), Hyson Green (scene of the riots in the early 80s), Forest Fields (prostitute city) and other council estates. These take a lot of the fallout from the estate violence.

You then have the outer-city estates where people linked to the families are housed to get away from the violence by the council. You then have firebombs through the letterbox as they are linked too.

Most violence in the news seems to originate from gangs or drugs in some way, and I see no easy solution to this. Look at LA - they've had gangs for decades and it doesn't improve.
 
Banco
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Noelg (Reply 39):
Look at LA - they've had gangs for decades and it doesn't improve.

With all due respect to the problems in Nottingham, Los Angeles it ain't.
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smokescreen
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 35):
So why are handguns banned? Why are they not only illegal when used as "an offensive weapon"? (your words)

Many people think that "an offensive weapon" is all they are...

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 36):
These statistics clearly shows that policing in the US is more dangerous, with 1 out of every 14,641 officers killed, while in the UK, 1 out of 470,207 officers are killed.

These are interesting numbers. Does anyone know the number of police officers in the U.S. who are killed or wounded with their own weapons? I ask because I have heard that this is one of the reasons why British cops are leery about going about armed.
 
L-188
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 41):
Many people think that "an offensive weapon" is all they are...

And actually from a purely tactical perspective a pistol/handgun is a lousy offensive weapon. It is only good for close quarter-defensive operation.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 25):
If you need your gun NOW, you can't go get it or call for backup. "Excuse me Mr. Criminal, would you please wait with shooting me so I can go get my gun? Thank you."

That is the problem with these rapid response units that are armed to the teeth. Even it it takes them only 5 minutes to get on scene with the sub-machine guns it may have been 4:45 too long.

Oh that brings up another point. The GB police here seem to go from nothing but a radio to having a four man swat team with body armor and sub-machine guns show up at the location. Sort of an all-or nothing response.

In the US you will almost never see a line office with anything bigger then a 12 guage shotgun on scene....usually just the hip pistol.

The only time you see automatic weapons is when a full swat team is called out. So you have more armament options to deal with the situation.
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GDB
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:18 am

As demonstrated, the numbers PROVE the unarmed UK police are much, much less likely to die from firearms.
Even less likely to shoot themselves or each other in accidents too.
Accepting the different cultures.

Let's get one thing out of the way too, the vest this PC was wearing is called a 'stab vest'.
That is what it really designed to protect from, a far more likely occurrence.

To Nottingham, clearly a bad spot, however the police reckon gun dropped there 74% last year, from the previous year.
How? Shooting? Gun battles? No, mostly good old fashioned detective work.

Until the mid 80's detectives like the anti robbery Flying Squad, often drew revolvers.
Until a spate of mistaken identity/accidental shootings.
So the role of armed response units grew, dedicated to the task, so better trained.

Not always SWAT style teams either, accepting I live right near LHR, in a local grocery store/take away, I often see Police in there, (usually getting a take out curry!).
Usually armed with Glocks.

If a majority of Police here wanted to be armed, that would likely happen.
But they don't, in fact many would quit the job.

UK gun laws were tightened after two massacres, 9 years apart, one in a market town in Berkshire, the other, 15 5-6 year olds and their teacher, both groups were killed by then LEGALLY held weapons.
Including an AK-47, M-1 Carbine, the latter incident had two Browning pistols, two revolvers.
That drove tightening of existing laws, twice in 9 years, by public demand.

Linking this to general criminality/gangs, is a red herring.
There has always been some, a few, armed criminals.
And the police have always countered this in the way they see best.
 
highpeaklad
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:58 am

I think Nottingham's just got a bad luck at the moment. As people have said most gun crime is gang related and usually these things run their course. I'm from Manchester and a few years ago there was a similar situation here , but the police went after the gangs and things are much better now. They have a similar gun/gang problem in Liverpool but you don't hear so much about that. Its a bit like when there's a plane crash - for the next few days every slightest incident gets reported in the papers and the public are made to feel there's a problem with air safety. Nottingham has such a reputation at the moment that any hint of gun trouble and its highlighted in the press, meanwile in bigger cities there are probably loads more incidents, you just don't get to hear about it in the national news



Chris
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Jaspike
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:11 am

Saw this on the news a few weeks ago. Quite interesting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4604116.stm

The number of shootings in Nottingham fell by 74% last year.

The police say real guns were fired less than once a month - compared with almost once a week in 2004.

Figures revealed exclusively to the BBC in the East Midlands show there were 42 shootings in 2004 but last year guns were fired on 11 occasions....


Tom
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 41):
Does anyone know the number of police officers in the U.S. who are killed or wounded with their own weapons?

From 1995-2004
Slain with own weapon, stolen by assailant: 36 (total deaths: 93)
Slain with own weapon, not stolen by assailant: 18 (total deaths: 496)
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
MDorBust
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:13 am

Shoot to injure?

What, was he a physician and an expert marksman?

What a load of BS.

Only people who have never handled a weapon or watched too many movies think such a thing exists.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
777236ER
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:49 am

Regarding the Hungerford shooting, this should be sobering reading for those pro-gun people on here:

Most of Ryan's weapons were not illegally owned, he had held a shotgun licence since as far back as 1978. And the Thames Valley Police had, in the twelve months before August 1987, vetted the young gun enthusiast on at least three occasions, once in November 1986 and twice in early 1987.

As the storage facilities Ryan used were found to be in order, there was no good reason for the relevant authorization to be withheld. So apart from a minor speeding offence, Ryan had never been in trouble with the police.

With his calm and rational exterior, Ryan raised no suspicion that he was not a fit and proper person to hold a firearms certificate. He joined the Dunmore Shooting Centre at Abingdon in Oxfordshire in 1986, and bought a series of guns from the shop there. These included a Beretta pistol, a Smith and Wesson, a Browning shotgun, a Bernadelli pistol and two other shotguns.


He used these guns to shoot 29 people, killing 15.
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MDorBust
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 47):
Regarding the Hungerford shooting, this should be sobering reading for those pro-gun people on here:



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 47):
He used these guns to shoot 29 people, killing 15.

There is of course one important thing you are missing here...

If in a state such as, Texas, this were to happen... statistically speaking, more than one of those almost 30 victims would have returned fire stopping the incident in it's tracks.

Also conviently ignored is the fact that the nearest armed police response was forty miles away at the time of the crime.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
L-188
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RE: Another UK Female Police Officer Shot

Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 47):
He used these guns to shoot 29 people, killing 15

He used them

I didn't-Why should I and every other gun owner be punished for his crime.
The guns didn't do it, they are only object.
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