Logan22L
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Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:30 am

Well, over in the the Bryant Gumbel thread, StuckinMAF stated that he was looking for something to argue about:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1117219/

Fair enough; let's keep it halfway civil. Of course, avoiding the spirit of that request, with Men's figure skating on in the O-limp-pricks, I'm looking for something worthwhile.

SO:

Politics?
Guns?
Ann Coulter?

What's it gonna be then?
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:32 am

Wouldn't we need a worthy opponent first?
International Homo of Mystery
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Logan22L (Thread starter):
Ann Coulter?

I don't think that one's gonna fly, we half-assed agreed on that one this week already.

Quoting Logan22L (Thread starter):
Politics?

Worn kinda thin, nothing new to argue about lately.

Quoting Logan22L (Thread starter):
Guns?

We did that one this week, too, in the "Shot Female Cop in the UK" thread.

Quoting Logan22L (Thread starter):
with Men's figure skating on in the O-limp-pricks

Hmm. Has some potential.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:34 am

How about we just bash him randomly for previous posts and see what sets him off..I mean we have to push one of his buttons sooner rather than later.
 yes   hyper 

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Wouldn't we need a worthy opponent first?

Puuleeez! Don't make me IM Pope or Gilligan!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 4):
Don't make me IM Pope or Gilligan!

If you're looking for a date, don't let me stop you.
International Homo of Mystery
 
searpqx
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 4):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Wouldn't we need a worthy opponent first?

Puuleeez! Don't make me IM Pope or Gilligan!

And that would help how?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
If you're looking for a date, don't let me stop you.

Sooooorry, I don't swing that way. Why, are you jealous?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 7):
Why, are you jealous?

Again you confuse manners and good breeding for something else. Tsk, tsk.
International Homo of Mystery
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:41 am

I hear his mother smelt of elder-berries and his father was a whole lot of sailors ....
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Logan22L
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:43 am

OK, enough ball-washing. How about a worthy topic?

I think that funding for the arts should not be (or have been) cut. For, despite the possible questionability of some works, that is, in fact, their very worth. Some art is a representation of a flower or of a landscape. Other art, and I put his in an important category, is criticism of the humn condition. If you hate it, fine, if you love it, fine. It makes us discuss our differences. This, in the end, is a good thing.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 9):
blah blah blah

Signed,
ANCFlyer
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Logan22L (Thread starter):
Men's figure skating on in the O-limp-pricks

Speaking of that, about what percentage of those guys do you figure are gay? I mean, the females they skate with, it would be good for them because they wouldn't feel threatened by them and might feel more....I dunno...."equal"?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 9):
I hear his mother smelt of elder-berries and his father was a whole lot of sailors ....

That's original.  crazy 
Crye me a river
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:45 am

 yes 

I agree.. I also think those who most vocally want arts funding cancelled think nothing that their local politicians have spent billions to support their pro teams... Why punish those who would rather see cutting edge art than a football game.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
searpqx
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 12):
Speaking of that, about what percentage of those guys do you figure are gay?

Very few I think - the only gay skaters I can think of were singles. But yes, it probably would help that during a lift the guy was more concerned with form than trying to cop a free feel. . .  devil 
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 12):
what percentage of those guys do you figure are gay?

You know what they say about guys fixated on gay men ...
International Homo of Mystery
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 10):
I think that funding for the arts should not be (or have been) cut.

There we go, that's a good one.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 10):
For, despite the possible questionability of some works, that is, in fact, their very worth.

Not if it's being financed with some of those precious $$$ you think should go for inner-city welfare programs. It would be better spent on law enforcement or better public schools, but I doubt I'll get much of an argument from that.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 10):
If you hate it, fine, if you love it, fine. It makes us discuss our differences. This, in the end, is a good thing.

It's not a love or hate thing (depending on the art form), I just fail to see the value of it. How does it make things better? A crucifix in urine.....how can that possibly be a good thing?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 12):
Speaking of that, about what percentage of those guys do you figure are gay?

Al of them

Signed
Straight guys
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Logan22L
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 12):
Speaking of that, about what percentage of those guys do you figure are gay?

Not my trip, but I could really just give a rat's ass about that.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 15):
it probably would help that during a lift the guy was more concerned with form than trying to cop a free feel

Or a sniff, for that matter.  duck 
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:55 am

Here's an example, maybe it's art, maybe it's not. Around here, they are quarrying stone to make these big decorative ornamental landscaping setups around highway interchanges, and some of them are out in the middle of nowhere. It's a HUGE waste of money! Some people might find them to be "purdy", but all I see when I look at them is money flushed down the damned toilet! Money that could have been better spent on the road itself!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:58 am

But they have serverd the purpose of art...they are making you talk about them....Art is meant to stimulate discussion and thought here you are bringing hem up in a forum..

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
searpqx
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 17):
I just fail to see the value of it. How does it make things better?

Since when has the purpose of art been to make things better, other than in some instances, aesthetically? Art has never been about universal acceptance, nor does it require that everyone 'get it'. As Logan said, one of the main goals has always been to make people examine their perceptions and thoughts.

As far the cross in urine, I don't get either, but to hold that up as an example of art is the same as holding Ann Coulter as a rational Republican. Sure she claims to be, but no one really thinks so.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 22):
As far the cross in urine, I don't get either, but to hold that up as an example of art is the same as holding Ann Coulter as a rational Republican. Sure she claims to be, but no one really thinks so.

But the problem is that the Government (ME!) shouldn't be paying for things like that! The Government does not pay Ann Coulter.

"Piss Christ is a controversial photograph by American photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. Some have suggested that the glass may also contain the artist's blood. The piece was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art's "Awards in the Visual Arts" competition,[1] which is sponsored in part by the United States National Endowment for the Arts, which offers support and funding for projects that exhibit artistic excellence."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"The National Endowment for the Arts is a United States federally funded program that offers support and funding for projects that exhibit artistic excellence. It was created by the U.S. Congress in 1965 as an independent agency of the federal government. Its chairman is poet Dana Gioia and has its offices in the Old Post Office in Washington, D.C.

The NEA mission is "to enrich our Nation and its diverse cultural heritage by supporting works of artistic excellence, advancing learning in the arts, and strengthening the arts in communities throughout the country."


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_the_Arts

Now THAT'S a crock!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:08 pm

But who decideds what is art...you?....GWB (there someone finally tied him into this thread)....What one call art another may call junk....


Why is one art better than the other when the only difference is whether or not you like it.
GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 24):
Why is one art better than the other when the only difference is whether or not you like it.

"Piss Christ" (it even pains me to type it!) was almost universally offensive and had this been a less moral and sophisticated society, I could see it ending up inciting similar retribution as the Mohammed comic. That's crossing the line, it's NOT art, and it certainly should not be funded with public money!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 23):
But the problem is that the Government (ME!) shouldn't be paying for things like that!

It has long been recognized that funding public art projects actually gives far greater of a return than the expenditure (one of the reasons 1% of construction costs are often earmarked for such).

It not only creates better environments, but also demostrates civic pride and committments, and can help bring up the economic value to property in the area.

That is a worthwhile expenditure of public funds on art, whether it is for a museum that gentrifies a neighborhood, creating a landmark feature for a project, or encouraging new artists in their craft.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Logan22L
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 17):
A crucifix in urine.....how can that possibly be a good thing?

I knew Mapplethorpe (sorry,screwed up on this - see below) would come up. I found it very provacative. To be honest, I was just a bit offended at first. I also see no need to take things in life too seriously; this may be hard to believe given my vocality at times.

Some people do not believe in Christianity at all. They are faced with fundamentalists who push their own agenda at them. A crucifix in urine sparks a discussion not only of what is or is not art, but what does it mean? Does it mean that Christ was worthless, or that he was denegrated by his own people?

I don't know, but it makes us talk. We all will never have the same viewpoints, and that's good. Something has to serve as the catalyst for discussion. I wish you were not offended by that piece of (insert description here). At first I was, just a bit, but I realize it is a statement, not a denegration, IMO.

The discussion that arises here is: Should art be allowed just like free speech? Well, probably yes. Should it be funded?

That's the rub. Talk is free, art costs something. If Mapplethorpe had written an editorial about this instead of depicting it, how would we have reacted?

Edited to add:

My bad. I always thought that "Piss Christ" (yes, it pains me too, and I'm not Christian - I do belive that Jesus Christ was a very worthy, important man, however), was Mapplethorpe, not Serrano. Sorry.

Now, where do you draw the line on what gets funded and does not? Who chooses? Does it change with each administration? I guess I'd prefer that than the basic cutting of funding permanently.

[Edited 2006-02-17 04:28:33]
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 27):
The discussion that arises here is: Should art be allowed just like free speech?

I saw the Mapplethorpe exhibition twice, once at the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam, and once at the University Art Museum in Berkeley.

In Amsterdam, a respectful crowd came through the museum, interested in his work. There was even a class of schoolchildren I'd say was about 10 years old coming through, where their teachers explained what they were seeing and solicited comments and questions.

In Berkeley, people were 10 deep trying to catch a glimpse of the 2 or 3 most controversial works and ignored everything else.

It told me a lot about our differing cultures and I only hoped that no one from overseas was there to watch the display of Americans who reacted like a bunch of babies, since it was the children who ended up acting like adults.
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greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:30 pm

But are you talkng about the nice painting of landscapes that also got NEA funds? no because they are non-offensive.....

Art is to be controverisal and stimulate discussion ...piss christ has done that.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 26):
It has long been recognized that funding public art projects actually gives far greater of a return than the expenditure

Can you find a source to support that?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 26):
It not only creates better environments, but also demostrates civic pride and committments, and can help bring up the economic value to property in the area.

It has been my own observation that art-oriented projects are often located in ecomically depressed areas that probably should be left to die a natural death and not artificially resuscitated by the huge sums of money spent to keep them going.

Here's a great example: We have one of the only Presidential Museums in the coutry located near where I live. ( http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/PP/lbp4.html ) I call my county commissioner regularly to demand that public funding is cut off to it. They are now on a 5-year phaseout of public funding to it and the place is looking for outside assistance. I say run it like a business, if it can't support itself then close it. If enough people really apprecate the crap, they'll pay to get in. If not.......oh well. I'm sick of paying for it and I hear that same old argument all the time about it brings economic benefits to the area. That a load of crap! A business looking to locate here is not going to say "Hmm...they have a museum, so that's where we need to build our expansive facility!"
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 30):
Can you find a source to support that?

http://www.pps.org/info/pub_art/art_funding
International Homo of Mystery
 
Logan22L
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 28):
It told me a lot about our differing cultures and I only hoped that no one from overseas was there to watch the display of Americans who reacted like a bunch of babies, since it was the children who ended up acting like adults.

I hate generalize, but having been to the MOMA, the Met, and the Guggenheim in NYC, and the MOFA and Fogg museum in BOS/Cambridge, as well as the Rijksmuseum and Van Gogh museum in AMS, it does seem as though Americans have a penchant for the "First Edition" view of art.
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 27):
I knew Mapplethorpe (sorry,screwed up on this - see below) would come up.

"Mapplethorpe is best known for his Portfolio X series that sparked national attention because of its explicit content and the funding of the effort by the NEA, including a photo of himself with a bullwhip inserted in his anus."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapplethorpe

Oh, this is art, huh? A guy sticks a bullwhip up his ass and they call it art? And I am the one that has to pay for this crap? Good example, I can certainly see why you brought that one up! (edit: Mapplethorpe, that is)

Thought about pasting in the pic, but was afraid those who were not quite appreciative of "art" as (we?) all are might be offended and I might get banned! So, click the link at your own risk: http://www.artnet.com/ag/fineartdeta...d=30623&page=8&group=&max_tn_page=

[Edited 2006-02-17 04:43:06]
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 33):
Oh, this is art, huh? A guy sticks a bullwhip up his ass and they call it art? And I am the one that has to pay for this crap? Good example, I can certainly see why you brought that one up!

From your link:

Most of his photographs were made in his studio. His most common themes were flowers, especially orchids; portraits of famous people, including Andy Warhol, Deborah Harry, Richard Gere, Peter Gabriel, and Patti Smith; and nude works that include homoerotic imagery spanning classic nude forms to S&M acts.

[...]

This controversy was not accidental, as Mapplethorpe intended to use his unquestionable skills as a classic photographer to show gay sexuality as beautiful: it is activist art.


The vast majority of Mapplethorpe's work has nothing at all to do with sexuality. Have you ever attended one of his exhibitions?
International Homo of Mystery
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 32):
it does seem as though Americans have a penchant for the "First Edition" view of art.

What do you mean by that? Do you mean that Americans are less "sophisticated", or that (we?) have to have art that is more plain?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
The vast majority of Mapplethorpe's work has nothing at all to do with sexuality. Have you ever attended one of his exhibitions?

No, and after reading more about him, I don't think I ever would. It's not that I am too "closed-minded" to even look at it, it's just that I'm afraid I would find it not only very boring but also that I resent the fact that a large part of it was publicly funded.

I did read that he died of AIDS.  tombstone  Gotta wonder if his "life imitated" his art.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 25):
"Piss Christ" (it even pains me to type it!) was almost universally offensive and had this been a less moral and sophisticated society, I could see it ending up inciting similar retribution as the Mohammed comic.

I agree with you that it is offensive, but I don't agree with the other part of your post simply because you're mixing to completely different and uncomparable things. The comic is something available to the wide audience and, as such, it can offend more people. The other example is a piece of contemporary art that most people don't understand or don't like in general or simply don't care about it. So, these two things can't be compared. I disagree with all the violent protests we saw in the last two weeks, but the comic as a form of art can sparkle wide reaction much easier than some kind of weird contemporary art.

The reaction to cartoon can be compared to something that happened in the US in late 1950s and in 1960s. It is the reaction to Elvis Presley's stage performance and the reaction to John Lennon's statement "We're more popular than Jesus". It caused some really furious reactions.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 27):
Should art be allowed just like free speech? Well, probably yess.

I absolutely believe that art should be allowed to be free, but somehow, it is up to artists to think what is the message they want to send to the public.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:56 pm

So what kind of art would you pay for?

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 36):
No, and after reading more about him, I don't think I ever would. It's not that I am too "closed-minded"

Well what I'm picking up from you is that because of a few pieces of "activist art" in the system, you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and condemn art in general.

I would hope that you can see beyond that, be critical of what bothers you (it may surprise you that those in the art world do that ALL the time), but let the system stand that contributes so much to our society.

It's your choice.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Mir
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 25):
That's crossing the line, it's NOT art, and it certainly should not be funded with public money!

You may not like it, but just as with free speech, one has to take the bad with the good. And there is a heck of a lot of good that projects funded by the NEA do - more good than bad, most of which you never hear about, and most of which you probably never consider is funded by the NEA.

Example: my mother is a freelance violinist, who did a brief residency with her Baroque music group at an elementary school in Amarillo, TX. This school was in a very poor neighborhood, and the student body had very little to be positive about in their lives. And their music made a huge impact - you could tell from the way the kids reacted to it. That residency was funded by the NEA.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:01 pm

I may be slow to respond to anything further, since the Olympics are on now, and I hear there's men's figure skating tonight!

Programming note for MAF: Ice Dancing begins for three nights tomorrow.  tongue 
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Aleksandar
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 29):
Art is to be controverisal and stimulate discussion ...piss christ has done that.

Controversial yes, stimulating yes, but the problem with contemporary artists is that they want to shock people rather than to make them think.

I've seen some of similar performances and 99.9% of the people who were there had no idea what it is all about. It was important to be there and to look smart and be seen. There was one musical performance that looked more like a freak show than performace of any kind.
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 37):
you're mixing to completely different and uncomparable things. The comic is something available to the wide audience and, as such, it can offend more people. The other example is a piece of contemporary art that most people don't understand or don't like in general or simply don't care about it. So, these two things can't be compared.

I don't think they are incomparable. As accessible as images are now (and in the "Piss Christ" time) via electronic means, you can't tell me that it's not "available to a wide audience". It is, and was, just as offensive to as many and maybe more people, it's just that it offended civilized people and not radical lunatics. Yes, the "Piss" piece is commonly considered "art", but I'm sure that if the comic had been considered "art", it might have drawn an even stronger reaction than it got!

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 37):
Quoting Logan22L (Reply 27):
Should art be allowed just like free speech? Well, probably yess.

I absolutely believe that art should be allowed to be free, but somehow, it is up to artists to think what is the message they want to send to the public.

Yeah, as much as I dislike some of it, I would have to say it might be impossible to judge what is appropriate art and what is not. My main problem is that I very much dislike that I am having to pay for some of the vile crap that is considered "art". And most of what the NEA funds is just that- crap.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
greasespot
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
You may not like it, but just as with free speech, one has to take the bad with the good. And there is a heck of a lot of good that projects funded by the NEA do - more good than bad, most of which you never hear about, and most of which you probably never consider is funded by the NEA.

 yes 

The thing is when you start to censure what gets funded you are then imposing your values and ideals as to what is art.....

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 43):
And most of what the NEA funds is just that- crap.

Can you find a source to support that?  duck 
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Logan22L
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 35):
What do you mean by that? Do you mean that Americans are less "sophisticated", or that (we?) have to have art that is more plain?

I think Americans need to "know what that means" when they look at a piece of art, or read a poem much more so than Europeans, or, as a much better example, Asians. Having read my poetry many times at poetry readings in the US, most people have asked me "what does that mean?" My answer is always "what does it make you think of? What does it mean to you?" That's mainly my purpose. Getting people to think. It often has a particular meaning to me, but that's not always so important to get across to the reader. It's far more important to get their brains clicking on what it makes them feel like.

As a scientist, I need to know EXACTLY what someone (i.e, a scientist) is talking about, to see if they are saying things accurately. This is a big part of my work day. It's my job to either accept or constructively criticize what is being proclaimed. Occasionally, I get to shoot it down, and I spend the rest of the day in the mensroom celebrating my accomplishment.  Wink perhaps another is in order:  Wink

Anyway, having studied world religion on my own, I've found that western religions come across as very spoon-fed, while eastern religions are far more cerebral and abstract. While my scientific bent appreciates literalness, I separate my job from my spirituality. I prefer abstract religious concepts in my tetherless spiritual realm, and hard facts in my scientific job/other times of life.

I hope this makes sense, even though I've digressed a bit.
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 38):
So what kind of art would you pay for?

Well, I was about to say NONE of it, but then I read Mir's post.....

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Example: my mother is a freelance violinist, who did a brief residency with her Baroque music group at an elementary school in Amarillo, TX. This school was in a very poor neighborhood, and the student body had very little to be positive about in their lives. And their music made a huge impact - you could tell from the way the kids reacted to it. That residency was funded by the NEA.

I'd have to go for that one simply because it is in a public school, and in general what is presented in a public school can't be too provocative, right?  Yeah sure

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
Programming note for MAF: Ice Dancing begins for three nights tomorrow.

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 43):
but I'm sure that if the comic had been considered "art", it might have drawn an even stronger reaction than it got!

Well, I happen to consider cartoonists as artists. As for the reaction, I doubt it would be worse than it already is.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 43):
it's just that it offended civilized people and not radical lunatics.

Speaking of lunatics, somehow I simply believe that the ones who were the most agressive in all the demonstrations didn't have cartoons in mind. They simply wanted to burn something whether it is a consulate or McDonald's. Those scenes were ugly and I hated to see that happen, but it gives me no right to label the whole nations as less civilized.
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Aleksandar
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RE: Per His Request - Let's Argue With StuckinMAF

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 43):
As accessible as images are now (and in the "Piss Christ" time) via electronic means, you can't tell me that it's not "available to a wide audience"

That kind of art is simply not made for wide audience. You can put the electronic image on thousands of websites and yet most of people would not even bother to look at it.
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