cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:50 am

Sion Jenkins has been formally acquitted of the murder of his foster daughter after the jury at the Old Bailey failed to reach a verdict.
It was the third time Mr Jenkins, 48, had gone on trial for the murder of Billie-Jo in Hastings, East Sussex.

The former deputy head teacher, now of Lymington, Hampshire, had always denied murdering the 13-year-old at the family home on 13 February 1997.

After 3 trials and evidence witheld. Will the TRUTH ever be told?

[Edited 2006-02-17 19:51:10]
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:02 am

3 times? I gather you don't have double jeopardy laws in the UK then?


(I really thought this was going to be a question about why did Billy Joe McCallister jump off the Tallahatchee Bridge.)
International Homo of Mystery
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
3 times? I gather you don't have double jeopardy laws in the UK then?

No, he was convicted, then he was freed pending appeal. The two re-trials failed to reach verdicts. It's the same case, nothing to do with double jeopardy.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:14 am

Not being from the UK, I had never heard of this case before so I went out and read several articles about it. Interesting, but very tragic, and it looks like it has been just as polarizing in the realm of public opinion as it was in the courtroom.

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Will the TRUTH ever be told?

Probably not, similar to the OJ Simpson, Robert Blake, Jon Benet Ramsey and too many other cases.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
9VSPO
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 9:03 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Will the TRUTH ever be told?

Only he knows.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 4):
Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Will the TRUTH ever be told?

Only he knows.

That's what I mean. Will he ever admit to the truth?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Jamie757
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Thread starter):
Will the TRUTH ever be told?

How do YOU know that he isn't telling the truth?

Rgds.
"I feel like a turkey who's just caught Bernard Matthews grinning at him!"
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Jamie757 (Reply 6):
How do YOU know that he isn't telling the truth?

I don't. But why was evidence witheld?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 3):
and it looks like it has been just as polarizing in the realm of public opinion as it was in the courtroom.

Maybe. I think one of the overriding themes of this case in the public domain has less been strong views as to his guilt or innocence, and more a genuine uncertainty as to the truth of the matter.

Don't forget, our court cases don't get played out in the media in the way that yours do in the US - and that's one reason why we have a fascination with your high profile cases - because there are various restrictions on what can be reported because of fears of prejudicing a trial.

So we don't know a lot of what went on until after a trial is completed.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 7):
I don't. But why was evidence witheld?

What are you talking about?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Jamie757
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 7):
But why was evidence witheld?

It was rejected because the judge decided it was "too late" for the defence to examine it. What that really means, I don't know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4723012.stm

Rgds.
"I feel like a turkey who's just caught Bernard Matthews grinning at him!"
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
What are you talking about?

The main concern was the "new scientific evidence" that was disallowed by the judge.

That evidence involved small bone fragments that the prosecution claimed were found on Sion Jenkins clothes.

However, this evidence was not presented to the judge until the opening day of the trial and it was deemed "too late" for the defence to examine.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 11):
The main concern was the "new scientific evidence" that was disallowed by the judge.

That evidence involved small bone fragments that the prosecution claimed were found on Sion Jenkins clothes.

However, this evidence was not presented to the judge until the opening day of the trial and it was deemed "too late" for the defence to examine.

Well quite right too.

The prosecution have had 9 years to build their case, and to turn on the day of the thrid trial and say "Oh by the way, here's something new" without the defence having the slightest chance to examine it is palpable nonsense.

Prosecutions have to disclose their evidence to the defence. Anything else is clearly unfair. In any case, if such evidence was so dramatically wonderful, how come it only appeared so late on, given all the resources at the disposal of the prosecution?

It sounds to me more like a desperate attempt to cobble together something plausible at the last minute, than any "smoking gun" evidence.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:44 am

I think that's one of the main challenges our legal system has at the moment. The CPS. As you say, they had a long time to produce their case, so delaying the trial for a few days so this evidence could have been submitted, shouldn't have been a problem
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 13):
so delaying the trial for a few days so this evidence could have been submitted, shouldn't have been a problem

Nonsense. That's crazy. You'd have every prosecution in the land presenting new evidence at the last minute if that was what happened.

It's not a problem with the CPS, it's a problem that they didn't have sufficient evidence to gain a conviction, and so were casting around for anything that would fit.

You're making the assumption that this new evidence was compelling and would have resulted in a conviction. I don't see the slightest reason for amking such an assumption. I get the feeling that you have decided he's guilty and that therefore new evidence must be true.

In the last two trials the juries couldn't decide whether he was guilty or not. Now, to me that suggests there's more than sufficient reasonable doubt there.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
You'd have every prosecution in the land presenting new evidence at the last minute if that was what happened.

That depends on the evidence

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
You're making the assumption that this new evidence was compelling and would have resulted in a conviction

Absolutely not.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
In the last two trials the juries couldn't decide whether he was guilty or not. Now, to me that suggests there's more than sufficient reasonable doubt there.

IF the evidence HAD been submitted, would there have been "reasonable" doubt?
There must be some firm beliefs within the prosecution team regarding his guilt, otherwise it would have been laid to rest.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 15):
That depends on the evidence

No, it doesn't. Presenting evidence late on reduces the chances of the defence being able to adequately rebut it, regardless of its quality and increases the prosepct of conviction. That's why it isn't allowed.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 15):
Absolutely not.

OK, I take your word on that, but your previous posts wouldn't lead me to that conclusion.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 15):
IF the evidence HAD been submitted, would there have been "reasonable" doubt?

Almost certainly yes. Otherwise they wouldn't have waited 9 years to come up with it!

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 15):
There must be some firm beliefs within the prosecution team regarding his guilt, otherwise it would have been laid to rest.

You're on really, really dangerous ground here. The corollary of what you're saying here is that people aren't prosecuted unless they did it, and that a jury is there to rubber stamp what the CPS decides is worth trying.

We don't have a district attorney system here, and the role of the CPS is purely to present a case to court if there is sufficient evidence for there to be a prospect of a conviction. They do NOT decide guilt or innocence, they merely present a case. Anything else is a "no smoke without fire" argument, and it's one I loathe. Innocent people are prosecuted. God knows, innocent people are convicted. You shouldn't place ANY weight on the fact that they prosecuted Jenkins.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
You're on really, really dangerous ground here. The corollary of what you're saying here is that people aren't prosecuted unless they did it, and that a jury is there to rubber stamp what the CPS decides is worth trying

I believe that in certain cases that is true.I abhor the fact that our legal system is in some cases being run by accountants
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 17):
I believe that in certain cases that is true.

You can't be serious. That's one of the quickest ways to a police state there is.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 17):
I abhor the fact that our legal system is in some cases being run by accountants

All legal systems face financial constraints. Ours is better than most.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
9VSPO
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 9:03 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:21 am

Banco,

If I could put you in my RR list 50 times over for your replies here I would.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Innocent people are prosecuted.

Exactly. Look at Roy Meadows and the innocent woman he helped send to jail for 3 years for killing her 2 babies. That womans life will never be the same. Imagine the hell she went through - You just can't even begin to feel what she went through.
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:23 am

The guy was innocent, end of story.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 20):
The guy was innocent, end of story.

So why was he convicted at his first trial?
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 21):
So why was he convicted at his first trial?

Desparation and too much input from the press? I have no idea, but he sure wasn't about to lie down and accept that, which says to me he had a case to fight.

Incidentally, I never believed he was guilty in the first place, for what it's worth.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 21):
So why was he convicted at his first trial?

Ever heard of the phrase "Miscarriage of justice"?

Birmingham Six, Guildford Four. The list goes on. All convicted at their first trials.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 23):
Ever heard of the phrase "Miscarriage of justice"?

Birmingham Six, Guildford Four. The list goes on. All convicted at their first trials.

Glad your memory is better than mine Banco Big grin

The recent history of British "Justice" has unfortunately been littered with overturned cases and successful appeals. Now it's hard to actually make one's mind up when one reads about it.

I guess you have to make your own decision based on what you hear and accept what the courts decide. Doesn't give you a lot of faith in the system though.

And, although I am in two minds about capital punishment, it does make you think what would have happened had some of these folk been sentenced to death.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 24):
The recent history of British "Justice" has unfortunately been littered with overturned cases and successful appeals. [....] Doesn't give you a lot of faith in the system though.

That's one way of looking at it.

The other is to say that the British justice system is unusually willing to consider the possibility that a mistake has been made. In country after country we hear horror stories of people being unable to gain an appeal even where it is palpably obvious that a dreadful miscarriage of justice has occurred. That happens in many a nation where you wouldn't expect it, too.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 25):
The other is to say that the British justice system is unusually willing to consider the possibility that a mistake has been made. In country after country we hear horror stories of people being unable to gain an appeal even where it is palpably obvious that a dreadful miscarriage of justice has occurred. That happens in many a nation where you wouldn't expect it, too.

Damn! I hate a smartarse. But you are right. At least, I suppose, if we do cock it all up, there is the chance of an appeal or retrial. Even if it does take years.

Some places they just leave you on death row for 25 years.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:03 am

A defence comment was that the police and CPS had 'decided' that Sion Jenkins was guilty and then ran with that. In short, they built up the case against him but failed to properly investigate other possibilities.

Unfortunately when that happens things are rushed and mistakes creep in. But what is being alleged is that the police and CPS fitted him up as he was the most likely suspect rather than look at other options. They didn't look at his version and investigate that properly.

I don't know if he is guilty or not, but something about all this isn't right. Just what is it in this case that causes so much confusion with juries and judges?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Billie-Jo. Will We Ever Know The Truth?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 27):
I don't know if he is guilty or not, but something about all this isn't right.

That pretty much sums up the way I've felt throughout this saga. I don't know what it is, but right from the first trial, something was nagging away at me that the whole thing seemed wrong. It wasn't that I had some sneaking feeling he was innocent, just that it didn't seem right in some way. I'm not sure we'll ever know.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bostrom, fr8mech, Scorpio and 12 guests