Gilligan
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Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08 pm

Here's the link,

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/17/bootcamp.death/index.html

The story does not say why he ended up there but maybe someone should explain to the mother that if she had been doing her job maybe he wouldn't have ended up there. It's a shame he passed away but blasting away at the State for taking care of your problem doesn't seem to be the solution. If he truely was "her baby", she should have taken better care in raising him.
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yowza
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:39 pm

Was this not on an episode of CSI?

YOWza
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:39 pm

I guess Momma should have cared more for her Baby when he was a Baby instead of worrying about it now. But of course, it's never the parent's fault is it . . . and the kids in cases like this are always "good kids".
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LHMark
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:48 pm

Yeah! As a shitty mother, she has no right to be upset that her teenager was killed by the oficials into whose custody he was remanded, for some reason!

Instead, She should take from this little "oopsie" a lesson in good parenting, so that when she has the next one (they're always having babies, you know), she can be a better mother and prevent her fourteen-year-old, who like most teenagers probably hasn't developed the best judgement in the world, won't do whatever it is that he did to earn the death sentence of the last one.

Mrs. Anderson, I hope you've learned your lesson.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 3):
Yeah! As a shitty mother, she has no right to be upset that her teenager was killed by the oficials into whose custody he was remanded, for some reason!

Well, Mark, not one for subtlety early in the morning 'eh.

I don't hear anyone saying she shouldn't be upset. She has no right to blame the state however. . . if she'd done her gawddamn job in the first place this thread would be moot.

Your attempt at racism and muddragging is inane at best. Unwarranted.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dl021
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:10 am

I particularly found interesting the part where the state senator decided that his judgement was better than the coroners. We've dealt with this issue before....where politicians think they are smarter than doctors.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 3):
Yeah! As a shitty mother, she has no right to be upset that her teenager was killed by the oficials into whose custody he was remanded, for some reason!

Instead, She should take from this little "oopsie" a lesson in good parenting, so that when she has the next one (they're always having babies, you know), she can be a better mother and prevent her fourteen-year-old, who like most teenagers probably hasn't developed the best judgement in the world, won't do whatever it is that he did to earn the death sentence of the last one.

Mrs. Anderson, I hope you've learned your lesson.

Y'know.....on the one hand I certainly see her angst. She lost her son permanently. She can't pretend this is not a problem, like she could when he was alive and committing crimes. This is a tragedy, and the state should investigate the situation to determine what exactly caused the death, and find out if it was avoidable. Any negligence on the part of the state, or it's employees, should be punished.

I don't think that the mother needs to get any money from the state whatsoever. I don't know why her son was in the boot camp (although I do know that boot camps are alternatives to big boy prison where the teens sentenced as adults face much worse) but I do know that she's up crying foul now, and I wonder whether she did so to him when he committed the crime, or more importantly before he did so.
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aloges
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 3):

Amen to that. It's sickening how people race to blame no one but the mother. Sure no one is a saint, but this is nonsense.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
if she'd done her gawddamn job in the first place this thread would be moot.

The blame is never on one single person. Can parents really prevent their children from having contact to "bad people" 24/7? Answer is a big fat NO. There are many factors that determine a child's future, parenting is far from the only one.

Besides, if the mother is to be blamed for her son's death in a state-run boot camp, mustn't we blame parents of impoverished teenagers who join the arned forces for those deaths? After all, if the "parents hadn't been lazy {insert insult of choice here}, they wouldn't have had to join the Army".

Running a boot camp is about a lot of responsibility. If police officers aren't trained properly to recognise dangerous situations like this one, part of the blame is on them and most of all on the system.
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LHMark
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:21 am

For all we know, the kid could have been in there for stealing a candy bar. It's a little premature to call out mom because her fourteen-year-old did something stupid. Ever do anything dumb as a teen? I did. And my excellent parents, who really did care deeply about my future, never even knew about my exploits.

Their true parental skill showed in the long-term development of my judgement (which should be happening any day now), not supervising me 24/7 to make sure I never go into trouble.

And we're not even talking about the fact that her son was murdered. You guys are practically sanctioning it, because you have a whole preconception in your head about what this kid was, and how his mother is.

I doubt this kid was in Camp for a candy bar, but whatever he did, the proper authorities put him there instead of juvie because they thought the kid could be saved. Instead, he wound up on death row, and peoples' back-door condemnation and Jerry Springer moralizing to the mother is pointless and mean-spirited.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 7):
the kid could have been in there for stealing a candy bar.

Trust me when I tell you Candy Bar thieves are not the types going to Boot Camp, not here in Alaska, not in Arizona and not in Florida . . . .

Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
The blame is never on one single person. Can parents really prevent their children from having contact to "bad people" 24/7? Answer is a big fat NO. There are many factors that determine a child's future, parenting is far from the only one.

Of course one will run in to all sorts of "bad people". I certainly did . . . but because of my Mother and her rather strict requirements, I didn't choose that path. Any successes I had in that endeavor are directly attributable to her (not my Father - he was gone by the time I hit 10 years old). So, while every child has options - the direct influence on them by their parent(s) is the primary factor in which path they decide to take in life . . . and it starts with the smack on the ass right out of the womb. . . .

Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
And we're not even talking about the fact that her son was murdered. You guys are practically sanctioning it, because you have a whole preconception in your head about what this kid was, and how his mother is.

EDIT: This blasted A-Net quoted Aloges here, it should be LHMark . . .

He wasn't murdered . . . did you not read the Coroner's remarks? I wouldn't sanction murder. I do sanction the actions of the corrections officers. My preconception of this kid - plain and simple - he was in Boot Camp for fuckin' something up - he most certainly wasn't there as a part of a Baptist Church tour - and Boot camps are usually reserved for those kids the parents, officers, courts and state think have a shot at being "saved". So while he obviously had some problems, he wasn't a lost cause.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
Running a boot camp is about a lot of responsibility. If police officers aren't trained properly to recognise dangerous situations like this one, part of the blame is on them and most of all on the system.

I don't know how you expect the officers to be able to diagnose a heretofore unknown medical condition? 'Splain that one to me? Hell, I can't do it and run in to all sorts of riff raff . . .

[Edited 2006-02-18 16:31:53]
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LHMark
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:36 am

I missed the coroner's remarks before. Sorry about that part.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
aloges
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Hell, I can't do it and run in to all sorts of riff raff . . .

They should've recognised this total stranger was, as the article says, "slipping in and out of consciousness". That's certainly a reason for calling an ambulance, as opposed to standing around and trying to lift him back on his feet.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
They should've recognised this total stranger was, as the article says, "slipping in and out of consciousness". That's certainly a reason for calling an ambulance, as opposed to standing around and trying to lift him back on his feet.

Guess we'll have to see how long it took between the time they figured out he was out of it and in fact called for medical assistance.

That said: A lot of these kids . . . and pinhead Army trainees now that I think about it . . . feine injury, etc . . . there are many scenarios available as to how soon things happened when they realized he was in trouble.
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Logan22L
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:42 am

Where in the hell does it say that the mother did a lousy job as a parent? Some kids are just trouble-makers, and no matter what you do, you can't change them. How the hell do any of you know what went on in that family? You're the same ones telling other people not to rush to judgement against politicians, etc.

Where's your damn answer to that?
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 12):
Where in the hell does it say that the mother did a lousy job as a parent? Some kids are just trouble-makers

You're right . . .it doesn't say Mom was useless and the kids was just an asshole.

In my experience however - I find that every time, and I mean every time, it's a parental problem . . . whether or not the kids was a reincarnation of Satan is beside the point.

Example: Most parents with kids that are incorrigible that I've dealt with are the same ones that demand the state remand the little bastard to custody and send them to some place like this boot camp . . . that's a good parent making the hard call . . .

Furthermore, when the opposite is true and the parent(s) are losers, the kids are sent away regardless, it is the parent that instantly blames everyone else except themselves for the kids problems.

Example: The 13 year old girl that went out her bedroom window and was raped and murdered by a 15 year old - at 2 am. First thing out of her Mom's mouth: She was a good kid. . . . No she wasn't or she wouldn't ahve been shimmying down the downspout at 2am. Then it was the police that got blame for not finding her quickly enough. Bullshit.

So, while there is nothing in writing in this article, and I'm sure the Mother loved her son, and I am sorry for her loss, my experience dictates she didn't do her job.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TPAnx
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:52 am

IIRC, the kid was in boot camp for violating his probation for taking his
grandmother's Jeep. Nine officers were involved in "restraining" him, including one who's seen on video hitting him while he lay motionless on the ground.
He's the third Afro-American to die in a Florida boot camp. (Don't know the cause of the other's deaths.) This is a major story in Florida. The state and
U-S Justice departments are investigating,so we haven't heard the last of it.
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
Logan22L
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):

You know, Pep, you're probably correct. However, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a woman who has just lost her son. The facts will come out, and I'll reserve final judgement until then.

My opinion so far is that the boy probably died as a result of the sickle cell trait. However, it sounds as if the boot camp officers were narrow-minded in their perception and just looked at the symptoms as "just another uncooperative juvenile delinquent. We'll show him how to behave." Now that's an assumption on my part, but I'll bet it doesn't sound too off-base, does it?

Perhaps the officers should be a bit more attuned to health problems and medical conditions and their symptoms instead of just treating these kids as pieces of shit.
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luv2fly
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:06 am

According to new reports here in Ohio they said he died of internal bleeding not related to being beaten! Well I am sure it did not help....
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 15):
We'll show him how to behave." Now that's an assumption on my part, but I'll bet it doesn't sound too off-base, does it?

No it doesn't.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Gilligan
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 7):
And we're not even talking about the fact that her son was murdered.

If he was murdered then according to the coroner he was a walking dead man the day he was concieved.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
They should've recognised this total stranger was, as the article says, "slipping in and out of consciousness". That's certainly a reason for calling an ambulance, as opposed to standing around and trying to lift him back on his feet.

Yep, nobody in that situation has ever faked an injury, or suddenly found God on death row, or been totally innocent of all charges on a life sentence.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 12):
Where's your damn answer to that?

It's in what's not being said. You don't hear this mother saying I tried everything I could but he just wouldn't listen. Nope, first thing she does is get a lawyer and blame the state. It says in the story that he had breathing problems during previous basketball practices yet she never felt it was necessary to take him to the doctor and have that diagnosed. If she had done that much they would have been able to diagnose him as sickle cell.
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aloges
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 18):
Yep, nobody in that situation has ever faked an injury, or suddenly found God on death row, or been totally innocent of all charges on a life sentence.

 redflag  There are tests to determine whether or not an individual is unconscious, such as the sternum rub. If you get no response to any of these rather painful hence reliable tests, provided of course you know you have to perform them, you have a pretty good indication your patient is in trouble.

Why do you automatically assume the victim (hint: the 14yo) would fake unconsciousness? Is it because you think anyone who gets sent to a boot camp is "worthless"? Even though someone with the authority thinks he might end up on the "right way" in his future life?
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:40 am

Paging Dr. Martin.

Paging Dr. Martin.
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:01 am

Is it just me or does the boy's mum look like a black version of vicky pollard?
Dominic
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Gilligan
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 19):
If you get no response to any of these rather painful hence reliable tests, provided of course you know you have to perform them, you have a pretty good indication your patient is in trouble.

From the CNN report:

A woman in a white coat, who appears to be a nurse, looks on for a few minutes before walking away. The boy falls to the ground and the officers try, without success, to pull him up by his arms.

Later, Anderson is shown on the ground as the officers stand around him. It is not clear from the video what they are doing.

As they stand back, the boy is lying on the ground, limp. Staffers pull him up by his arms and try to get him to walk. Repeatedly, he takes a small step, then falls to his knees. His movements indicate he may be lapsing in and out of consciousness.

The boy finally collapses to the ground and the woman with the white coat appears to use a stethoscope before performing CPR as other officers look on or walk back and forth.


Sounds like the nurse was at least initially satisfied that the boy was fine.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 19):
Why do you automatically assume the victim (hint: the 14yo) would fake unconsciousness? Is it because you think anyone who gets sent to a boot camp is "worthless"?

Quite the opposite. Most of those in the prison system possess enourmous intelligence. Most of it is street wise or common sense. That is why I say that he would not have been the first one to try and fake his way out of physical exertion.
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aloges
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 22):
Sounds like the nurse was at least initially satisfied that the boy was fine.

In any case, the right thing to do with someone (very) near to a syncope is to let him/her rest and put the legs up, unless it's a heart attack. Pulling him up and trying to make him walk is not a good idea when you're dealing with a total stranger.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 22):
That is why I say that he would not have been the first one to try and fake his way out of physical exertion.

Nevertheless, there's little the officials involved can know on the first day. So the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the boy. If anyone's authority suffers from being humane and a little indulgent on the first day, then he should check if he's in the right field of work.
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Gilligan
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
So the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the boy

If I was in the boys position I would not want any special treatment shown me. That would look real good in front of the other campers who probably got treated to the same excersise on the first day. Any special treatment would instantly be recognized by the others and might be misinterpeted to that person detrement. It's a catch 22 situation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
aloges
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 24):
If I was in the boys position I would not want any special treatment shown me.

Would you really care if you were laying unconscious on the ground?  Wink

I'd much rather be "uncool" for some time than be dead forever.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Gilligan
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 25):
Would you really care if you were laying unconscious on the ground?

Once I was unconsious you're right, I could care less what they do. Prior to that I would. Obviously by the time he went fully unconcious it was too late to do anything anyway.
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LHMark
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:10 am

Turns out the kid was in Boot for joyriding his grandmother's jeep. The bad parents and grandparents pressed charges to teach their son a lesson about responsibility. Ironically, it was the worst parental decision ever.

Whan I was 14, my friend Scott and I went joyriding in his mother's car one night. We got caught by his parents. I ended up grounded. Had I been caught by the police, I'm pretty certain that I would have gotten off with far less than shock camp. I wonder why that is...
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Gilligan
Topic Author
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 27):
The bad parents and grandparents pressed charges to teach their son a lesson about responsibility. Ironically, it was the worst parental decision ever.

Correct.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 27):
I wonder why that is...

Perhaps you weren't quite the bad boy that this one was. There is no mention as to any previous criminal history but for his parents and grandparents to do that he must have been up to no good before.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Teenager Dies In Florida Boot Camp

Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 27):
Turns out the kid was in Boot for joyriding his grandmother's jeep. The bad parents and grandparents pressed charges to teach their son a lesson about responsibility

Logan, as I said . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Most parents with kids that are incorrigible that I've dealt with are the same ones that demand the state remand the little bastard to custody and send them to some place like this boot camp . . . that's a good parent making the hard call . . .

I'm not trying to say I told you, because you're a wiser man than I, but just pointing out . . . I told you so.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 27):
I wonder why that is...

Perhaps, Mark, because you weren't already ON PROBATION when you were 14? Ya think?  scratchchin 
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