lehpron
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Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:35 am

I'm trying to make a magnet out of copper wires, bent into a solenoid. Thin wires under high current get hot and burn out like exposed lightbulbs filaments. A opposed to making the wires thicker (which would be easier and cheaper - not point of thread), if those wires were instead tiny pipes or tubes with some kind of coolant flowing inside, but still charged outside if at all possible, would this tube still create a magnetic field?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
L-188
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting Lehpron (Thread starter):
I'm trying to make a magnet out of copper wires

God it has been 3 or 4 years since I took any sort of electronics class..

What type of wire are you using?
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comorin
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:46 am

Yes it would, as long as a current flows thru the wire. You can also cool the wire from outside with a non conducting fluid like transformer oil.
 
KevinL1011
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Lehpron (Thread starter):
would this tube still create a magnetic field?

Temperature isn't the problem. Ever heard of OHMs law? Pass a current through a conductor and it generates HEAT and EMF.

It sounds like you are attempting to pass too many AMPs through too small of a conductor. Your coil winding needs to be much longer, to increase resistance to ground or not pass so much current.

Attempting to cool the windings will not prevent the wire from burning.
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:49 am

Are you trying to build a bomb?

Soren  santahat 
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ilikeyyc
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:50 am

I don't see why it wouldn't work. When I read the title, I thought you were talking about connecting each end of the wire to a cold surface and cool the wire through conduction. Your idea sounds better. This wire you speak of, though, would have to be large and very expensive. Just use small and flexable copper tubing?

It sounds like you are using too small of a gage of wire. Either increase the wire size (smaller gage number) or add resistance to your circuit to prevent it from overheating.
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YeahitsK
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:50 am

I'm almost certain that it would still create a magnet. Wouldn't it be easier though to wrap normal wire around a pipe with some sort of coolant flowing through it than to find some kind of hollow wire to wrap around the pipe? The latter would be difficult to not pinch off and close to flow while creating the solenoid.
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L-188
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 3):
It sounds like you are attempting to pass too many AMPs through too small of a conductor. Your coil winding needs to be much longer, to increase resistance to ground or not pass so much current.

Attempting to cool the windings will not prevent the wire from burning

That is why you might want to seek out electric motor wire. Instead of insulation it uses varnish to keep the winding from touching each other.

When a motor burns out the smell you smell is usually the varnish burning off.
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KevinL1011
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
When a motor burns out the smell you smell is usually the varnish burning off.

Toxic as all hell. Here is where the "Pollution Free Electric Car" ends. The operation of an electric motor also generates Ozone.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):
It sounds like you are using too small of a gage of wire. Either increase the wire size (smaller gage number) or add resistance to your circuit to prevent it from overheating.

 checkmark 

You're not supposed to let the smoke out of the wire.
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bhill
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:58 am

If you afford it, use wire with more available electrons..like gold or silver...and use rare earth materials for the core so that you will not have to apply as much current for the gauss fields that you want..is AC an option?

Cheers
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comorin
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting Bhill (Reply 9):

Bhill, I'm curious if the current density across the cross section of the wire is constant, or is it higher near the circumference (surface). If I remember, this is frequency dependent, right ?


Thanks.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 10):
Bhill, I'm curious if the current density across the cross section of the wire is constant, or is it higher near the circumference (surface). If I remember, this is frequency dependent, right

If I remember right, the higher the freq the more surface effect you have. its been a long time.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):
Either increase the wire size (smaller gage number) or add resistance to your circuit to prevent it from overheating.

Increasing the size will help but increases the weight. if you add resistance (i.e. add a resistor)you reduce the current and reduce the magnetic field. If IRC if you want a strong magnetic field increase the number of turns, also to "focus" the field use a ferrous metal(a 16 penny nail works good) and wrap the wire around it. Most solenoids, relays and such use this to work.

Also if you use a hollow wire it might kink.

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 3):
Attempting to cool the windings will not prevent the wire from burning

well it would keep it from burning, but soon you would overcome the cooling effect and burn thru, IRC superconductors have to be at a really low temp, like -50F to work.

I have been out of school too long to remember more on magnetic theory, cant even remember if its left hand or right hand rule.

Dan in Jupiter
 
L-188
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 8):
The operation of an electric motor also generates Ozone.

And to think that we have been told that man has been destroying the Ozone layer.
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Klaus
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
And to think that we have been told that man has been destroying the Ozone layer.

Ozone near the surface is useless for the ozone layer at altitude, but it is rather problematic, even toxic, for living organisms.
 
lehpron
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:32 am

What I am trying to make is an ionic jet engine I got the idea from the very first commercials of the Ionic Breeze air purifier from spring 2001. That said, the air purifier used positive and negative plates to accelerate flow. There is more to it than that but I felt this flow was moving too slowly to propel anything, so a magnetic field should increase the mass flow rate by further accelerating the charge particles before their charge gets canceled by the negative plate. This was never intended for space applications (it could though), just within the atmosphere.

Now you know the application, does this help any?

Submerging the coils in coolant would make it easy but air cannot pass through the solenoid, plus this whole thing has to be light.

For soem reason, I think that increasing resistance increases the heat interaction out. Unless I can dump this heat back into the flow as a type of electric-afterbuner, I do not see the point of adding a resistor other than reducing the current, which I need to accelerate the flow at all. There has got to be another way.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
KevinL1011
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 14):
For soem reason, I think that increasing resistance increases the heat interaction out

OHM's Law!
E=I/R E=Volts I=Amps R=Resistance
Resistance makes heat. Volts are like pressure, Amps are volume.

EMF Rule of thumb:
Make a  thumbsup  with your hand.
Your fingers point in the direction of current flow and the Thumb points in the direction of EMF positive field.

It sounds like you have a mis-match between wire guage, circuit resistance and amount of current flow. You can put 10,000 volts through a 18 guage wire @ .01ma, but not vice versa. You need to determine how much amperage your windings can handle and use Ohms law to calc. volts.
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 15):
EMF Rule of thumb:
Make a with your hand.
Your fingers point in the direction of current flow and the Thumb points in the direction of EMF positive field

is it the right or left? I think its the left hand.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 14):
This was never intended for space applications (it could though), just within the atmosphere

look here. http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/tech/sep.html

Dan in Jupiter
 
KevinL1011
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 16):
is it the right or left? I think its the left hand.

 bigthumbsup 
Yeah......Oops! Important detail!

Consider it as what Pe@rson calls "the other woman".
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:31 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 17):
Consider it as what Pe@rson calls "the other woman".

Well... since Im divorced and not seeing anyone I get to double date.  Smile

Dan in Jupiter
 
YeahitsK
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:40 pm

Let's discuss this from a chemistry standpoint. From the other thread you linked, you wish to ionize air to move through your coil. The amount of energy it would take to ionize air would make this impractical as is. Air is 78% diatomic nitrogen (N2), and about 21% diatomic oxygen (O2). The diatomic configuration is extremely stable and not easily dissociated to produce ions. The screen idea you propose may impart a charge to impurities in the air, but not the air itself. If you truly want to use air, then you are going to have to incorporate an ozone generator as it is the only practical way of imparting any sort of charge to the native atmosphere.

The only other thing I can think of is to somehow exploit water vapor in the air. Water is a polar molecule that will react to a magnetic field. I don't think it is present in sufficient volumes to be practical either.

There are two major practical consideration that you would have to overcome. I know all about them from working with mass spectrometers. 1st problem- Ions and the gas phase are not happy partners. Ozone, for instance, will rapidly dissipate due to interactions with other normal atmospheric molecules and other ozone particles. It can't be stored, if you want to use it you have to generate it at the time of use due to its extremely short life span. In mass spectrometry, we create ions and fly them down a tube by manipulating voltages at "lenses" along the tube until they hit a detector where they are measured. The key to making this work is that the tube is held under a vaccuum! Otherwise they would just collide with other molecules and lose any of the charge energy we had imparted to them. This would occur as you attempted to accelerate your ions through the magnetic coil. The more power you apply, the harder they will hit.

The second consideration is in accelerating ions through the tube. How will you manipulate them such that they get through the tube and aren't attracted to the charge in the coil itself? They aren't just going to be attracted to the other side. This is going to take very precise control of the charge in the coil.

I suggest you read up on a field called Ion Mobility as it is the closest thing I can think of out there right now similar to what you want to do. When you check in at the airport and they screen your baggage at the airport for explosives, they are using Ion Mobility detectors. It is a form of mass spectrometer that works at atmospheric pressure, but ironically enough utilizes
stable diatomic nitrogen in the flight tube. This guy is considered the leader in
the field, so reading his papers and looking at the technology he has developed might give you some clues to making this work:

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/sb/page/normal/759.html
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KevinL1011
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 19):
1st problem- Ions and the gas phase are not happy partners. Ozone, for instance, will rapidly dissipate due to interactions with other normal atmospheric molecules and other ozone particles. It can't be stored, if you want to use it you have to generate it at the time of use due to its extremely short life span. In mass spectrometry, we create ions and fly them down a tube by manipulating voltages at "lenses" along the tube until they hit a detector where they are measured. The key to making this work is that the tube is held under a vaccuum! Otherwise they would just collide with other molecules and lose any of the charge energy we had imparted to them. This would occur as you attempted to accelerate your ions through the magnetic coil. The more power you apply, the harder they will hit.

I had that same problem trying to build a Flux Capacitor. It cost me over 10K in parts from Farnells and all it ever did was burn up the wiring harness in my Delorean.

I hope Lehpron hasn't spent too much on cannibalizing Ionic Breezes.
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 20):
I had that same problem trying to build a Flux Capacitor. It cost me over 10K in parts from Farnells and all it ever did was burn up the wiring harness in my Delorean.

You should have used pinball parts(i think thats the quote).

Dan in Jupiter
 
bhill
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:04 pm

Lephron...If you get the frequency high enough..the current does not travel through the wire as ON the wire....skin effect..yep, capacitence.radar wave guides work the same way...Ohms law does not really matter..sort of...imaginary numbers come into play...still, if it is PLASMA you want, use voltage, not current...problem is..how you gonna contain it? Read up on Tesla....
Carpe Pices
 
YeahitsK
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:12 pm

Quoting Bhill (Reply 22):
problem is..how you gonna contain it?

Let alone turn it into thrust. I'm thinking the energy input of this system is going to far exceed output. Interesting idea though Lehpron...
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sprout5199
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:14 pm

Quoting Bhill (Reply 22):
radar wave guides work the same way...

IIRC wave guides do what the name says, guide the waves, I remember in school(navy electronics) they had some wave guide made of wire,(a square made of wire connected to another square....)an instructor said had problems with SWR---ran through an officers stateroom, he would hang his coat hangers on it. not good at 1 megawatt

Dan in Jupiter
 
bhill
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:22 pm

hmmm...Lephron...what kind of EMV's are you looking for? MRI's do some of the same things.....hell, why use wires at all? Keep in mind that converting energy from one form to another is gonna cost you something.....sorta...
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bhill
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:42 pm

PS...waveguides are like "pipes"...does not matter...pun intended...just like H2O..excite the electrons enough....and you will be AMAZED at what might happen....again...how are you gonna direct the EMF stream? For an ion jet yer looking for yer gonna need a magnetic "wave guide"....Seems to me you should be looking at the research that the Russians have done with the Tokamak reactor..no? I don't think we...as the human race, have achieved the "break even point" yet....when we do....Hooo Raaaaa!!! The problem currently..pun intended..is the losses in heat vs having enough liquid He to make it work...

Cheers....
Carpe Pices
 
lehpron
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting Bhill (Reply 22):
still, if it is PLASMA you want, use voltage, not current...problem is..how you gonna contain it?

There is no plasma within this solenoid, this engine is not supposed to have a stream of charged particles out the back either. My engine idea is not supposed to be a ion engine like NASA or any other organizations have been trying. Despite not being a fan of electrical engineering, I intend to have future iterations of this system run smaller commuter aircraft. I think it's possible within 50 years. But right now I'm focused on model prototyes.

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 23):
Let alone turn it into thrust

I'm using a simple equation, mass flow multiply by velocity of the flow equals force, or thrust. Movement of particles within the coild would depend on magnetic feild strength, hence current. That was how I saw it, I'm up for advice at this point.

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 19):
How will you manipulate them such that they get through the tube and aren't attracted to the charge in the coil itself? They aren't just going to be attracted to the other side. This is going to take very precise control of the charge in the coil.

This seems like a totally new concept to me. Say I have a solenoid of 50 turns on one circuit system. On another system there are two magnetically-shielded regions at both ends of the solenoid, where one allows for charged particle to enter the system and the other trys to decharges them. So far I can figure there are two containment tubes, one to sheild it within the airplane, the other is inside the solenoid, protecting the coils from the elements. Air is allowed to flow through when system is off.

When the system runs, what is supposed to happen is particles go through the engines in less than 0.05 seconds. Within this time fram, how can paricles not go straight through the tube? May I ask what is the 'decay rate' of ozone with the air?

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 19):
. It can't be stored, if you want to use it you have to generate it at the time of use due to its extremely short life span

Let's say this lifespan is indeed short, with a powerful enough magnetic field such that by the time the charge/energy leaves, the particles are already out the back; these particles have to have interated with the air within the tube, i.e. there has to be a momentum transfer of some kind, i.e. a mass flow, per despersement of ozone, yes? At this point I'd have to figure out if this system has to be pulsed or steady state, this would afffect range and performance...

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 19):
The only other thing I can think of is to somehow exploit water vapor in the air. Water is a polar molecule that will react to a magnetic field. I don't think it is present in sufficient volumes to be practical either.

I thought of that, and came to the same conclusion. Plus water is heavier than Jet-A, and it would have to be pure, not tap water. Which was why I thought of Aluminum Oxide as a powder in water, but that was stupid. Regarding ozone, it would have to be generated on the spot, at the intake? what size of a generator are we talking about? Ozone is O3-2?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
YeahitsK
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 27):
I'm using a simple equation, mass flow multiply by velocity of the flow equals force, or thrust.

F=MA, not F=MV. According to this equation, you are going to have to have a lot of charge density (M), or tremendous acceleration to generate significant force. Not saying it can't be done as I don't know what kind of resources you have available to you. I'm just guessing that for the force to be significant (seeing how M of air components is so tiny) that you are going to need particle accelerator-type A. In other words, accelerating them close to the speed of light. That is going to be really hard to do at atmospheric pressures.
Normal air isn't going to be charged, so it will remain in the field you've generated. This means your ions are constantly going to be slamming into them and undergoing changes. Once you've generated a flow of ions, it may be possible that they will push the air out of the way, but it's going to be establishing that flow that is going to be the trick. I think you will need big, heavy systems to accomplish it.


Quoting Lehpron (Reply 27):
This seems like a totally new concept to me

There's a term for this- deflection. Ions moving through a field are deflected based on their mass/charge (m/z) ratio. The whole idea is to manipulate the field such that you impart proper energy to the ions where they follow a trajectory that gets to where you want them to go, and not slam into the side of your solenoid for instance, because they are too heavy or too highly charged. This will happen within the 0.05 s timeframe you specified. In layman's terms, it's a delicate balance of pushing them and pulling them in just the right way. Does it make sense that charged particles moving through a charged solenoid are going to be attracted /repulsed by the solenoid charge? Isolating the ions in a containment tube going through the solenoid is going to AMPLIFY this problem because it will be more narrow, the field will still have to penetrate it (otherwise what's the point of the solenoid?), and you are going to need even more delicate control of the forces inside this tube. Once an ion collides with a surface, it tends to lose its charge through redox (depending on polarity) and is then useless to this application. If you manipulate the field properly, the ions will accelerate through it to the other side, never touching the solenoid, eliminating the need for containment. You will make your life easier by having uniform ions- same mass, same charge, hence one deflection setting for your ions of choice.

As for your ozone questions, I dunno other than it is indeed O3, but not 2-. It is more similar to water in that it has both a positive and negative charge center in it.
http://www.lenntech.com/ozone/ozone-properties.htm
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YeahitsK
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:11 am

Hey Lehpron, just curious- do you have to build a working model of this thing for a class? I agree with Bhill that our technology isn't able to make this practical yet. So hopefully you can just discuss it theoretically.

At the risk of info overload, rather than use a coil you will need a device like a quadrupole, a coil won't do the trick and will be so inefficient that you might as well not have it there:

http://www.jic.bbsrc.ac.uk/services/metabolomics/lcms/single1.htm

It will have to be modified to not serve as a mass filter, but simply to stabilize and accelerate ion trajectories. You will need to be VERY good at math and electrical engineering to get this to work, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about the cooling problem anymore. I hope this helps, email me if you want more info.
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lehpron
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 28):
Once you've generated a flow of ions, it may be possible that they will push the air out of the way,

That was what I meant with the equation:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 27):
I'm using a simple equation, mass flow multiply by velocity of the flow equals force, or thrust.

that (kg/s)*(m/s) = N. At first I thought all of the air would be charged and that 'air' was moving through. Using college EM physics equations and make what I thought wer appropirate assumption, I could approximate the thrust for a given amount of current.

But, now it seems even that mass flow is actually two parts: 1) the flow of ions accelerated through the coils and 2)the air being 'pushed' out of the way by the accelerating flow, which draws more air into the system. The ions generation will not be a few particles, for this engine to work, it would have to be on the order of moles per minute. Similar to a fuel-air ratio. This worked for Ionic Breeze, though the distance between was real short, on the order of milimeters. I'd have to build it completely to the best of my knowledge and take measurements. It was always intended, I just prefer more acursate numbers before I go ahead with it.

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 28):
Does it make sense that charged particles moving through a charged solenoid are going to be attracted /repulsed by the solenoid charge?

Nope.  Smile The way EM physics was taught to me, particularly electromagnetis coils such as solenoid and torus', was they confine charged particles within the field and move along field lines, that they don't hit the coils themselves. (they do not cross other field lines -- unless an equal strength magnetic field interfered)

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 29):
Hey Lehpron, just curious- do you have to build a working model of this thing for a class? I agree with Bhill that our technology isn't able to make this practical yet. So hopefully you can just discuss it theoretically.

This is not for a current class. Before I can get into a thesis class, I need a proposal that the department head accepts. I just think a working prototype would be icing on the cake. At this point, I do not see this as impractical, just a matter of getting it to work. The only blunder is that I am lacking some skills.  Wink

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 29):
will need to be VERY good at math

Does 6 semesters of calculus count? Don't mention Fourier Series, if I have to do that crap I am going to scream.  Angry  Wink

How did you mean for the quadrupole to be used in this theoretical application?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
YeahitsK
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RE: Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 30):
Nope. Smile The way EM physics was taught to me, particularly electromagnetis coils such as solenoid and torus', was they confine charged particles within the field and move along field lines, that they don't hit the coils themselves. (they do not cross other field lines -- unless an equal strength magnetic field interfered)

This is what theory predicts, but it isn't so true in practice. The movement of ions in a field is governed by the mass/charge ratio of the ions. The field has to be the right strength to hold the particles in orbit around the coil. Check out this website and read the part about electron dynamics in Hall Effect accelerators:

http://www.me.mtu.edu/researchAreas/isp/projects.html

Quote:
Magnetic fields are typically used as virtual walls for trapping charged particles, since such particles have difficulty crossing magnetic field lines. Theoretical calculations show that magnetic fields should be very effective for simultaneously confining both positive and negative charges. However, when used in the laboratory the rate at which particles escape magnetic devices can be more than 1,000 times greater than predicted by theory.

I think it presents a potential efficiency problem for your design. Maybe it won't, who really knows? Just something to keep in mind. This is why I suggest the quadrupole. They are designed to give you precise control of the forces that will transport ions from point A to point B. Modern quadrupoles can switch fields every few milliseconds to effectively transport a variety of different ions. I was also thinking that it would serve to concentrate the physical size of the ion beam, which could help to increase thrust.

This is cool stuff though, I hope it works for you. Too bad we can't talk about it over a beer.  Big grin
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