Derico
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Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:37 am

Breaking news!

This certainly is some good comic relief from the periodical Falklands 'bluster' topics here at A.net...

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/02/20/um/m-01145373.htm

The ship did not resist, apperently, and now is on toe headed for the port of Comodoro Rivadavia.

In these days of GPS, the 'my dog at the map' excuse won't work too well  Wink

Will London come out and officialy claim Argentine waters as British? Or maybe say 'our mistake'? Probably neither, in a fine show or respect  blockhead 

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ANCFlyer
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:44 am

Not this shit again??

You want to translate the article? Or tell me if this is a decent interpretation:

If I'm reading it right, the ship, the John Cheek with 31 people aboard strayed 2 miles inside the 200 mile limit???

Bravo for the Argentine Navy . . . they seized a 53 meter long ship two miles the wrong side of the imaginary line . . . whoo hoo . . . what an INVASION. And now that ship is cooperating and heading to an Argentine port???

Say, you never did answer me in the other thread when I asked if Argentina had ever replaced the General Belgrano . . . you know, the Cruiser the Brits sent to the bottom of the Atlantic . . .
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aloges
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:47 am

 redflag   redflag   redflag   redflag 

and one more  redflag 

It was a fishing vessel that, as the image you posted suggests, "invaded" the Argentine Exclusive Economic Zone maybe two or three miles deep. The EEZ does not equal territorial waters, so Argentina was not "invaded" by the evil, evil British fishing vessel. Though I can see why you're so worried about a fishing vessel; considering the outcome of the last war that your country started, anything qualifies as a threat to Argentina's forces.

and one for the road:  redflag 
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Banco
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:56 am

Whilst we're on this subject, I have a confession to make:

A few years ago, acting on the instructions of the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office, I undertook a secret mission to invade Buenos aires. under cover of wandering around the city and doing such devious, devilish things as going into bars, eating in restaurants and generally acting as a tourist, I secretly planned for an invasion of the country by British forces in 2007.

My cover was impeccable. Had you been watching me 24 hours a day, you'd never have been able to tell I wasn't a tourist.

Who'd have thought it, eh?  Yeah sure
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yowza
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:07 am

Hopefully we see another England vs Argentina clash in the world cup this year. It could very well happen. If it does maybe the winner of the game should get the Falklands.

YOWza
 
GDB
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:20 am

So crack is now cheaper in Argentina?
 
slider
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 4):
Hopefully we see another England vs Argentina clash in the world cup this year. It could very well happen. If it does maybe the winner of the game should get the Falklands

LOL!

Yeah, play for the proverbial "pink slips!"

That's high stakes soccer...wow.
 
cfalk
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
The ship did not resist, apperently, and now is on toe headed for the port of Comodoro Rivadavia.

Right. As if your everyday fishing boat carries Harpoon missiles. The most resistance it could offer was bad language, and I'm sure the Argentinian crew recieved a couple of barrels' worth.

Three cheers for the brave Argentinian Navy for a great victory over... a fishing boat.  crackup 
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Three cheers for the brave Argentinian Navy for a great victory over... a fishing boat

BwaaaHaaaHaaaa . . . whoo Hoo . . .

We got us a fishin' boat!!! Lookie here!!! Salute!!!

 sarcastic 

Great Victory Argentina . . .

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
cover was impeccable. Had you been watching me 24 hours a day, you'd never have been able to tell I wasn't a tourist.

You sneaky bastad you . . .  laughing 


Hey, any word on the Gen. Belgrano ????
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Not this shit again??

You want to translate the article? Or tell me if this is a decent interpretation:

If I'm reading it right, the ship, the John Cheek with 31 people aboard strayed 2 miles inside the 200 mile limit???

Say, would you happen to feel the same way if a ship was caught fishing illegally in your territorial waters, out of YOUR resources? Bravo to the US Coast Guards?  Yeah sure

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Bravo for the Argentine Navy . . .

It was not the Navy, it was Argentine Coast Guards.

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
So crack is now cheaper in Argentina?

Yes, apparently you've been on some.  Wink

Cheers! wave 
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Hey, any word on the Gen. Belgrano ????

ANC, please knock it off with that. You have NO idea how offensive that is. I'm asking you with all due respect. You're trying to pass it as a joke, and it is not slightly funny
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
This certainly is some good comic relief from the periodical Falklands 'bluster' topics here at A.net...

WHO CARES!

Laugh it up and move on. It's not like it was China with a nuke sub.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:36 am

Y'all laughing and all, but few people really have an idea of how much that Falklands crap is still right in the throat of MANY Argentinians (Argentines?)...

I remember one of my type rating ground school was given by a pilot from Argentina, a former military pilot, to make matters worse.

Program of day 1: The Falklands war and how unfair its outcome was considering the SUPERIORITY of the Argentinian forces & aircraft generalities.

And now the irony of it all: He is an instructor on a BAe aircraft...!!

A lot of hurt national pride for a piece of rock and a couple of pinguins if you ask me.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Say, would you happen to feel the same way if a ship was caught fishing illegally in your territorial waters, out of YOUR resources? Bravo to the US Coast Guards?

Nope. Happens all the time here.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
It was not the Navy, it was Argentine Coast Guards

In case you haven't researched much lately, there's not much difference between the two.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 10):
ANC, please knock it off with that. You have NO idea how offensive that is. I'm asking you with all due respect. You're trying to pass it as a joke, and it is not slightly funny

Aren't you the same guy who finds it necessary to take pictures of your face 3 inches away from the camera and post them all over this site? I can't tell you how offensive that is..........I'm asking you with all due respect for humanity.........you're trying to pass it as a joke, and it is not slightly funny.
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EGGD
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 12):
Y'all laughing and all, but few people really have an idea of how much that Falklands crap is still right in the throat of MANY Argentinians (Argentines?)...

Well I know that it's in the throat of one Argentinian for sure  thumbsup 
 
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 13):
In case you haven't researched much lately, there's not much difference between the two.

Well, that might be in your country not here. They are TWO different institutions.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 13):
Aren't you the same guy who finds it necessary to take pictures of your face 3 inches away from the camera and post them all over this site? I can't tell you how offensive that is..........I'm asking you with all due respect for humanity.........you're trying to pass it as a joke, and it is not slightly funny.

Then don't look at them if they offend you. And what's this gotta do with this? Seriously, you need to get help.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 15):
Well, that might be in your country not here. They are TWO different institutions.

Then you really haven't done your research if you think the USCG and the USN are the same.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 15):
Then don't look at them if they offend you. And what's this gotta do with this? Seriously, you need to get help.

Don't look at his post if it offends you..........that's what it has to do with this thread.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Hey, any word on the Gen. Belgrano ????

ANC, you know we get along fairly well, and I do apreciate your input on this forum, but this time I agree with Gaston. The sinking of the Belgrano is a big issue here. It's like saying "any news on the WTC"? (with obvious differences and I think I don't need to explain how I feel about 9/11. ). Let's keep the forum with respect Big grin

regards  Smile
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 16):
Don't look at his post if it offends you..........that's what it has to do with this thread.

What does ARA General Belgrano have to do with this thread?  Yeah sure

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 16):
Then you really haven't done your research if you think the USCG and the USN are the same.

I never mentioned the US Navy. Guess you didn't read.  Yeah sure
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usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 18):
I never mentioned the US Navy. Guess you didn't read.

I think you're having some problems here, so let me help you....

You said...

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 15):
Well, that might be in your country not here. They are TWO different institutions.

In response to...

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 13):
In case you haven't researched much lately, there's not much difference between the two.

Which was in response to...

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
It was not the Navy, it was Argentine Coast Guards.

In case you can't see very well, I'm from the United States. You said that it might be that way in my country, which means you're talking about the United States Navy and the United States Coast Guard.

If you need some more help, let me know.
Crye me a river
 
aloges
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 15):
Then don't look at them if they offend you.

Pot, kettle, black.  Wink

Derico started a thread to stir up some... err, "residues". We played and called him out on hyping up a totally mundane irrelevant incident. So where's the problem?

As for the Belgrano jokes: Do you have any idea how many jokes the British crack about Germany? The best way to deal with it is to get over it. The UK won and got the islands back.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
L-188
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 12):
Program of day 1: The Falklands war and how unfair its outcome was considering the SUPERIORITY of the Argentinian forces & aircraft generalities.

Sorry but that is ego talking.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Hey, any word on the Gen. Belgrano ????

Low blow. Did you know realize that boat was a Pearl Harbor survivor? That being said, the attempts by the families to try and get the sinking of the boat classified as a "War Crime" is BS. But those guys really don't need to be made a joke of either.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Say, would you happen to feel the same way if a ship was caught fishing illegally in your territorial waters, out of YOUR resources? Bravo to the US Coast Guards?

Happens quite a bit up here. One of the big critisms of moving the USCG to DHS was the worry that the fisheries protection mission would be given a lesser priority...in many ways that has come to pass.

Also there have been a few cases in Dixon Entrance where the CDN-CG has tried and move the fishing boundary on US fishermen too. This was particularly common during the 1996 AK-BC salmon war.
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argent

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 19):
In case you can't see very well, I'm from the United States. You said that it might be that way in my country, which means you're talking about the United States Navy and the United States Coast Guard.

Of course. Because you suggested there was no difference between the Argentine Navy and Coast Guard.

There is a difference between each other, here in Argentina.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 20):
Do you have any idea how many jokes the British crack about Germany? The best way to deal with it is to get over it.

Spot on.  checkmark  yes 

And do you know how many jokes 99% of the world cracks about us? If I got mad at each one, I'd shat all over myself on a daily basis.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Say, would you happen to feel the same way if a ship was caught fishing illegally in your territorial waters, out of YOUR resources? Bravo to the US Coast Guards?

Yup, it's a damn fishing boat, not an invasion - and yes, we get them ALL the time . . . particularly from Japan and Russia . . . we don't escort them anywhere, we send them out to International waters . . . . next???? We don't seize them, unless there are drugs or other actions not associated with fishing involved . . . rarely, very damned rarely do we escort a ship back to an Alaskan port . . . navigation isn't perfect.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 10):
NC, please knock it off with that. You have NO idea how offensive that is. I'm asking you with all due respect.

OK, deal. No offense to you Gaston . . . all respect intended.

Derico's commentary in other threads speaks volumes about this chip he maintains on his shoulder, and anything insulting is directed solely at his attitude. Certainly not at you Gaston . . .

In the big scheme of things, it was a fishing boat, a couple miles on the wrong side of an imaginary line . . . . even here, the US COast Guard just escorts them to the "right" side of said imaginary line . . . .

What's the big deal . . . I have a theory . . . some Argentines are still bristling at the pasting the Royal Navy gave them . . . and in some cases it might be warranted, in most cases it is not.

Derico's chip is evident . . . his thread title is bullshit. He earned the replies he got here . . .

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 17):
ANC, you know we get along fairly well, and I do apreciate your input on this forum, but this time I agree with Gaston.

I didn't realize the impact. You have my apologies EZEIZA . . . I shall not bring it up again . . .

[Edited 2006-02-20 21:14:52]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 22):
There is a difference between each other, here in Argentina.

So which is it? Argentina or Portugal? I like to have an idea about who I'm talking to without them hiding behind something that's false.
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Gman94
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 17):
ANC, you know we get along fairly well, and I do apreciate your input on this forum, but this time I agree with Gaston. The sinking of the Belgrano is a big issue here. It's like saying "any news on the WTC"?

Sorry wheres the issue, we were at war with Argentina, we sunk an Argentinian navy ship. Big deal, war is a dirty business, do you hear us crying about the HMS Sheffield?
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 20):
As for the Belgrano jokes: Do you have any idea how many jokes the British crack about Germany? The best way to deal with it is to get over it. The UK won and got the islands back.

Aloges, this was an English (or British) Submarine sinking an Argentine boat outside conflict waters. It did hurt, and the wound is still opened. Are you going to say the same about the jews and the holocaust? Get over it?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
Low blow. Did you know realize that boat was a Pearl Harbor survivor? That being said, the attempts by the families to try and get the sinking of the boat classified as a "War Crime" is BS. But those guys really don't need to be made a joke of either.

Thank you for your fine replies, L-188.
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Banco
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 20):
As for the Belgrano jokes: Do you have any idea how many jokes the British crack about Germany?

Mmmm. The Belgrano hasn't really been the subject of too many jokes in the UK. We remember the Sheffield, Coventry, Atlantic Conveyor, Ardent, Antelope and Sir Galahad.

The Falklands was a nasty little war.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
Sorry wheres the issue, we were at war with Argentina, we sunk an Argentinian navy ship. Big deal, war is a dirty business, do you hear us crying about the HMS Sheffield?

Do you hear anyone cracking jokes about it? Come on, let's keep it civilized. It has been posted several times that the Blegrano is a sensitive issue, regardless of if its justified or not, so do we really have to go there?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
I didn't realize the impact. You have my apologies EZEIZA . . . I shall not bring it up again . . .

No problem. Always good talking to you  Smile

regards  Smile
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A319XFW
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
Are you going to say the same about the jews and the holocaust? Get over it?

The Jews in Germany were German citizens and some even fought for Germany in WW1. Comparing mass genocide to the sinking of an enemy warship is plain ignorant to what happened under the Nazis.

[Edited 2006-02-20 21:24:46]
 
L-188
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
Aloges, this was an English (or British) Submarine sinking an Argentine boat outside conflict waters.

Actually it was outside the EEZ that the British had declared around the islands. But what are really conflict waters? I don't think anybody ever decided that the exclusion zone translated into a declared field of battle. I would go so far as to agree with the European Human Rights court hen they threw out that human rights lawsuit against the RN filed by the Belgrano families.


Actually it always surprised me that the RN never really made any attempts to hit the mainland bases that where providing air support for the islands.
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
OK, deal. No offense to you Gaston . . . all respect intended.

THANK YOU very much.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 25):
So which is it? Argentina or Portugal? I like to have an idea about who I'm talking to without them hiding behind something that's false.

When someone makes a point and you have no other way back other than admitting, you attack something else? It's Argentina, just so you know.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
We don't seize them, unless there are drugs or other actions not associated with fishing involved . . . rarely, very damned rarely do we escort a ship back to an Alaskan port . . . navigation isn't perfect.

We do seize them, temporarily that is. We take back all the things that came from the Argentine Sea, fine the company that owns the ship and then its released back -- that's what Newspapers DO NOT tell. Thank you for your explanation, ANC.
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
aloges
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argent

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
Aloges, this was an English (or British) Submarine sinking an Argentine boat outside conflict waters.

"Outside conflict waters"? As far as I know, the Belgrano was transporting troops to the Falklands. That's about as involved in a war as a warship can be, short of firing rounds. Argentina started the war, so the Argentine Navy should not have wondered if British subs would try to sink its ships.

Edit: Wikipedia doesn't say the Belgrano was carrying troops, but patrolling. However, ANCFlyer has apologised and maybe it's best to let the Belgrano issue and of course the victims rest in peace.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
It did hurt, and the wound is still opened.

I see. Dresden did hurt, too. Hamburg, Hannover, Pforzheim, Berlin hurt. And the people killed in those cities were civilians, many civilians. Yet we got over it, and the British donated the cross for the church in Dresden (Frauenkirche) that was rebuilt as a sign of overcoming the past.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
Are you going to say the same about the jews and the holocaust? Get over it?

The sinking of a warship during a war cannot be compared to the Shoa. Period.

[Edited 2006-02-20 21:31:40]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Banco
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 31):
Actually it always surprised me that the RN never really made any attempts to hit the mainland bases that where providing air support for the islands.

It was considered, but felt to be politically disastrous. Hitting Argentina itself would have removed the moral high ground the British were maintaining.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 31):
Actually it was outside the EEZ that the British had declared around the islands.

The British reserved the right to take action against any vessel felt to be a threat, regardless of location.

The Belgrano, with guns of a higher calibre than anything possessed by the task force, was unquestionably a threat. The position and the direction of sailing was immaterial. Ships have been known to turn around.

Having said all of that, the Belgrano's sinking was nothing short of a tragedy, no matter how militarily justifiable it might have been.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:30 am

So, Gaston, what will be - in your opinion - the end result with this wayward fishing vessel . . . the one Derico contends is invading Argentina . . .

Surely you see the hillarity of his thread title?
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usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 32):
When someone makes a point and you have no other way back other than admitting, you attack something else? It's Argentina, just so you know.

You're kidding me, right? You didn't even acknowledge the fact that you contradicted yourself in your own posts. You WERE talking about the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard, then denied it, then didn't answer when I re-posted what you said.

Please, buddy......I'd like to try to understand where you're coming from, but if you respond like this, you don't make yourself look very good.
Crye me a river
 
L-188
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:34 am

Here is a picture of CL-46 the USS Phoenix Later the Belgrano. Photo was taken on 12/7/41, I don't think you need to be told where.

BBC on the anniversary had an interesting piece where they tracked down some American vets who where on board that day, and most of them had some very hard anti-british feelings when they boat was suck 40 years later. I tried looking for it but I didn't find it.



Quoting Aloges (Reply 33):
As far as I know, the Belgrano was transporting troops to the Falklands. That's about as involved in a war as a warship can be, short of firing rounds.

That is pretty much my opinon on the matter too. See my early comment about the EEZ.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 32):
We take back all the things that came from the Argentine Sea, fine the company that owns the ship and then its released back -- that's what Newspapers DO NOT tell.

Ditto up here. USCG usually escorts a couple of vessels into Kodiak a year. A few of them run and there is a lot of footage of these boats running and the crewmen dumping fish into the ocean.....presumably it is illegally caught.
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L-188
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
Having said all of that, the Belgrano's sinking was nothing short of a tragedy

War is period.

Which is why I can't give any other special consideration to this sinking then I would give any other acts of war between one combat vessel and another.

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
It was considered, but felt to be politically disastrous. Hitting Argentina itself would have removed the moral high ground the British were maintaining.

And men died because of that decision. The British pretty much shut down the Argentinan navy after sinking the Belgrano. They didn't leave port. Seems that if they had hit the bases the A-4's and Entards where flying from, they may have stayed home too.....at least more of them would have to provide air support.
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BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:44 am

I'm sure that the vast majority of Argentinians couldn't give a damn about the Falklands, just as the majority of Spaniards couldn't give a damn about Gibraltar UNTIL someone has to get the big wooden spoon out and stir it all up. I don't believe for a minute that this is a matter of Argentinian pride, but if they do lie awake at night lamenting the Falklands then maybe they should try to be nice to the Falkland Islanders for a couple of decades, instead of crap like forcing a fishing boat to travel to an Argie port, or the usual sabre rattling and veiled threats. Until the day the Falklanders or Gibraltarians no longer wish to be British this is a non issue.
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Banco
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
War is period.

Which is why I can't give any other special consideration to this sinking then I would give any other acts of war between one combat vessel and another.

Certainly true. But the lack of preparedness on the ship (she wasn't even zig-zagging), and the poor level of training of large numbers of conscripts that resulted in such a high level of casualties. Whilst the war itself was close run thing due to the British operating so far from base, the contact between a WWII cruiser and a nuclear submarine that it wasn't even aware was present was a total mismatch.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
And men died because of that decision. The British pretty much shut down the Argentinan navy after sinking the Belgrano. They didn't leave port. Seems that if they had hit the bases the A-4's and Entards where flying from, they may have stayed home too.....

Don't forget that the British were very limited in terms of air operations. they absolutely couldn't afford to lose assets. In order to attack the mainland, a carrier would have had to get reasonably close to the coast. Lose a carrier, lose the war. Although the political ramifications of attacking the mainland meant that the plan was a non-starter, it would have been an incredibly risky undertaking anyway.
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MD11junkie
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 33):
The sinking of a warship during a war cannot be compared to the Shoa. Period.

Yes, I acknowledge that, it was a stupid comparison. My apologies.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
So, Gaston, what will be - in your opinion - the end result with this wayward fishing vessel . . . the one Derico contends is invading Argentina . . .

Nothing will come out of it, Clarin [the newspaper] is making much big of a deal than it really is for the government. This will not be exploited for political purposes, this is something that goes alongside with the policies of protecting the fauna in the Argentine Sea. There are several incursions a day, but they all result in the ships leaving the limit area. They are trying to touch a nerve here, by remarking that this as some "victory", because the vessel was British. Plain stupid from the article writer, if you'd ask me.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
Surely you see the hillarity of his thread title?

Yes I do. And, no offense Derico -- but I think you overworked it a little.  Wink

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 36):
Please, buddy......I'd like to try to understand where you're coming from, but if you respond like this, you don't make yourself look very good.

Sorry man, heat of the moment. I apologize.

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
The Belgrano, with guns of a higher calibre than anything possessed by the task force, was unquestionably a threat.

Good point. But, I've seen in a NatGeo documentary, that many British didn't feel as victorious as the Excelsior's crew did -- is that true?

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
Having said all of that, the Belgrano's sinking was nothing short of a tragedy, no matter how militarily justifiable it might have been.

 checkmark 

Quoting L-188 (Reply 37):

Ain't she beautiful?  Smile L-188, if you can get a link for the BBC documentary, please let me know. Thank you.

Cheers! wave 
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Banco
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 41):
that many British didn't feel as victorious as the Excelsior's crew did -- is that true?

I can remember it well. There was the initial jubilation ("Gotcha" - the infamous Sun headline) but pretty quickly the reaction was one of horror. And of course just a few days later the Sheffield was hit.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 31):
Actually it was outside the EEZ that the British had declared around the islands. But what are really conflict waters? I don't think anybody ever decided that the exclusion zone translated into a declared field of battle. I would go so far as to agree with the European Human Rights court hen they threw out that human rights lawsuit against the RN filed by the Belgrano families.



Quoting Aloges (Reply 33):

"Outside conflict waters"? As far as I know, the Belgrano was transporting troops to the Falklands. That's about as involved in a war as a warship can be, short of firing rounds. Argentina started the war, so the Argentine Navy should not have wondered if British subs would try to sink its ships.

Edit: Wikipedia doesn't say the Belgrano was carrying troops, but patrolling. However, ANCFlyer has apologised and maybe it's best to let the Belgrano issue and of course the victims rest in peace.

To add a bit more info on the subject.

The Belgrano combat group was outside the exclusion zone at the time of the attack, but it had turned onto a heading that would have put it into striking distance of the main British taskforce within a few days.

Conquerer had the fleet under survellience constantly and reported this change of direction back to London. The new course would have taken the Belgrano into shallow waters, thus forcing the submarine to take a different route, dropping survellience while it was doing so.

It could not be determined if the submarine could reestablish contact with the Argentinian combat fleet before they became an unequivocable threat to the British taskforce, so the decision to sink her had to be made before the Belgrano entered the shallow waters.

It was made, and she was sunk, heading toward the British taskforce.

It was outisde the exclusion zone, but this zone was not legally binding and observed as a matter of course by the British commanders. It was in no means a 'safe' zone. The reason so many brave crew died was because the escort ships fled the scene, frightened of another strike.

Arguably that strike saved more lives than it ended, as it caused the Argentinian navy to stay at home for the rest of the conflict, ending the threat of further sinkings by Conquerer.

There are many things that various groups have tried to take to court, the most recent being that the British taskforce was dispatched carrying nuclear weapons (even tho they were offloaded to another ship en route, there was simply no time to offload them in port and take them to a secure location, so they were transfered to another ship).
 
cfalk
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 12):
The Falklands war and how unfair its outcome was considering the SUPERIORITY of the Argentinian forces & aircraft generalities.

Which just goes to show that British troops, ships and planes were superior in the most important aspect: TRAINING. They kicked ass. Argentina should take the lesson in humility and forget about the Falklands, unless they want to go up against the UK again.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
Which is why I can't give any other special consideration to this sinking then I would give any other acts of war between one combat vessel and another.

That's right. War is all about killing as many of the enemy as you can until he screams for mercy. Restraint just prolongs the war, and in the end creates more casualties.

If your potential enemies know that that is your operating philosophy of war, then they will be much less likely to screw with you. Do you think that Iran would thumb its nose at the rest of the world if they thought that anyone might respond without any restraint?
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usnseallt82
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 41):
Sorry man, heat of the moment. I apologize.

No problem at all. At least you have the balls to apologize, while Derico keeps stirring stuff up.  Big grin
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aloges
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 41):
Yes, I acknowledge that, it was a stupid comparison. My apologies.

So many sensible people on tonight... Big grin If only it were always like that.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 44):
War is all about killing as many of the enemy as you can until he screams for mercy.

Actually, a properly fought war is precisely about none fatal casualties. If you kill an enemy soldier, you might enrage his friends and if you kill enough then they might give in, but if you wound an enemy soldier, you now force your enemy to expend resources on caring for that soldier which means people, medical supplies, time. Eventually, they have no more ability to do so.

A filled up hospital is more likely to demoralise than a filled up cemetary.

One of the reasons the NATO assault rifle round calibre is set at 5.56mm, less killing power and more chance of an injury.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 44):
That's right. War is all about killing as many of the enemy as you can until he screams for mercy. Restraint just prolongs the war, and in the end creates more casualties.

There has been considerable speculation about just how seriously Thatcher took the Cordoba option.

It was definitely a tactic which many on the hard right were in favour of, but Thatcher didn't want to go down as the second leader in history to authorise use of nuclear weapons. The eventual release of Cabinet papers should show just how serious the proposal became.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
The ship did not resist, apperently, and now is on toe headed for the port of Comodoro Rivadavia.

how typically British to hold your hands up and allow justice to take its course then. You should take note of the lesson, which is admitting that taking other peoples' property is wrong.

It might have averted a nasty little war you lost 20 or so years ago.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Falklands No More Enough For UK, Invade Argentina!

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:51 am

A fishing boat seen 2 miles inside the 200 limit...!

There must be at least half a dozen embassies which need to be set ablaze somewhere...  expressionless 
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