stuckinMAF
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Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:19 am

Source: http://wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526

"There were two big developments Monday in the case of a motorist who was shot and killed along Greenwell Springs Road Friday after a fight with a police officer. Investigators say an autopsy shows the deadly bullet was fired by a bystander, not the officer. Police also announced that no charges would be filed in the case, either against the police officer involved or the bystander who fired the fatal shot into the head of George Temple.

East Baton Rouge Sheriff's spokesman Greg Phares says Officer Brian Harrision was escorting a funeral procession Friday when he pulled Temple over and wrote him a ticket for breaking into the procession. According to Phares, that's when Temple attacked Harrison. Police say Perry Stevens was walking outside of the Auto Zone on Greenwell Springs Road when he heard Harrison yelling for help. Harrison was reportedly on his back with Temple on top of him. That's when Stevens went to his car and grabbed his .45 caliber pistol.

According to Col. Greg Phares, "[Mr. Stevens] orders Mr. Temple to stop and get off the officer. The verbal commands are ignored and Mr. Stevens fires four shots, all of which struck Mr. Temple."

Perry Stevens fired four shots into Temple's torso. Officer Harrison had already fired one shot into Temple's abdomen. With Temple still struggling with the officer, Perry continued to advance toward the scuffle.

"He again orders Mr. Temple to stop what he was doing and get off the officer. Those commands are ignored and he fires a fifth shot and that hits his head. The incident is over with, and as you know, Mr. Temple is dead."

Police are calling the shooting death justified. Perry Stevens has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Col. Phares would not give out any more details relating to the shooting. Both Phares and Baton Rouge Police Chief Jeff LeDuff stopped short of crediting Stevens with saving the officer's life. LeDuff says the entire incident is unfortunate.

"I spoke with his father at the scene briefly," said LeDuff. "I think this is a tragic situation all around."

9 News is told George Temple has a criminal record, and Officer Harrison was involved in a shooting while employed as a prison guard in East Baton Rouge Parish, where he was suspended for three days back in 1995."


Hmm..... Very interesting. Worthy of discussion?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
airlinelover
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:26 am

I Think it's good to see citizens assisting law enforcement people.. rather then fighting against them..

Chris
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Thread starter):
Both Phares and Baton Rouge Police Chief Jeff LeDuff stopped short of crediting Stevens with saving the officer's life.

I am sure that is the posture they are taking on camera....off.

Thank god this citizen was there to assist the officer.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:45 am

Since you didn't state your position on this, let me take a stab in the dark at it. "It shows that vigilanteism is a legitimate use of force with concealed weapons, regardless if the person assisted is armed himself, and able to shoot."
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MDorBust
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:46 am

Four rounds from a .45 to the torso and he didn't die?

Gee, narcotics?
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fr8mech
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:52 am

What's to discuss:

Person attacks police officer.
Citizen says stop!
Person fails to stop.
Citizen shoots and eventually kills person.
Police officer and citizen safe.
Person, now deceased no longer a threat to anyone.
Police officer needs to be better at hand to hand.

Again, what's to discuss?

[Edited 2006-02-21 21:54:07]
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L-188
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
Gee, narcotics?

That and/or adrenaline.
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Since you didn't state your position on this, let me take a stab in the dark at it. "It shows that vigilanteism is a legitimate use of force with concealed weapons, regardless if the person assisted is armed himself, and able to shoot."

I am purposely reserving my position until later in the discussion.

I noticed that you didn't state your position either, Westy. Is it frustrating to you that I didn't state my position so you could attack it, whatever it may be? Very revealing.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
bushpilot
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:40 am

I will echo a few comments about getting hit four times with a .45 slug. That is a lot of abuse, maybe it was mostly gut shots rather than vital areas then there was the headshot.

Im going to go ahead and chalk this up as a victory for the pro-gun folks. A citizen having a legally owned concealed firearm used the tool at his disposal to assist an officer in a dangerous if not deadly situation for the officer.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Thread starter):
George Temple has a criminal record, and Officer Harrison was involved in a shooting while employed as a prison guard in East Baton Rouge Parish, where he was suspended for three days back in 1995."

Now I know it is fairly standard for an officer to be placed on some sort of administrative leave after a shooting incident. Most of the numbers I hear is three days. But they usually call it admin. leave and not suspension. This raises the question to me of, if he had previously been in trouble and suspended for using his gun in an unjustified manner, was he apprehensive about using it again. The report said the officer had shot him in the abdomen but I just wonder if that was something at the back of his mind.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 8):
but I just wonder if that was something at the back of his mind.

I dunno, but I know what was in the back of Temple's mind.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 7):
Is it frustrating to you that I didn't state my position so you could attack it, whatever it may be? Very revealing.

Huh? What? Not frustrating for me at all, otherwise I would have stated it. When one makes a thread, one offers their views for discussion. Since you didn't, I offered one that I thought it might be. You could have said "Yes" or "No" without revealing your insecurities.
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bushpilot
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
but I know what was in the back of Temple's mind.

Yeah I would imagine a 230gr jacketed hollowpoint would equate to some heavy thoughts.
 
LHMark
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:47 am

There are 200 million people in this country. There will always be individual cases where a good thing happens as a result of a citizen carrying a firearm, and there will always be bad individual instances, as well. No matter how you view it, individual anecdotes are not much to bolster either side's case.

I'm glad thing went the way they did in this case. It's a lucky thing there was a guy with a gun who knew how to use it.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
"It shows that vigilanteism is a legitimate use of force with concealed weapons, regardless if the person assisted is armed himself, and able to shoot."

This isn't your position I'm guessing? If so, I would disagree my friend . . . it shows a citizen defending a police officer . . . not a vigilante . . . and it's legal. In fact, a few places it's required. . .

It is legal, and expected, although not the law, in Alaska . . .

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
Four rounds from a .45 to the torso and he didn't die?

Gee, narcotics?

Perhaps, certainly something kept him spinning . . . don't forget the fifth round from the officer in the abdomen. So, meth??? That's my bet.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 8):
Now I know it is fairly standard for an officer to be placed on some sort of administrative leave after a shooting incident. Most of the numbers I hear is three days.

Suspended with pay. . . . the term 'suspension' is multi-use . . . suspended from duties.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 8):
This raises the question to me of, if he had previously been in trouble and suspended for using his gun in an unjustified manner,

"unjustified" - this is supposition on your part I take it, since nothing says this is the case?

Good for the citizen, good for the officer, good for the public. Another asshole off the streets . . .
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AeroWesty
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
This isn't your position I'm guessing? If so, I would disagree my friend

There was no position stated by the OP, who only asked if this should be discussed. As I said before, I offered a stab at what the premise of the thread would be, nothing more, nothing less.
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bushpilot
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 8):
This raises the question to me of, if he had previously been in trouble and suspended for using his gun in an unjustified manner,

"unjustified" - this is supposition on your part I take it, since nothing says this is the case?

Good for the citizen, good for the officer, good for the public. Another asshole off the streets . . .

Yeah I was only raising the question, I was wondering if that might possibly be the case since the story said "suspended" from my experience of hearing and reading media reports from instances similar and they have usually said admin leave. Just a thought.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
There was no position stated by the OP, who only asked if this should be discussed. As I said before, I offered a stab at what the premise of the thread would be, nothing more, nothing less.

 checkmark 

Of course, I could guess your position since I know your feelings about guns . . . but not necessary.

And I made mine fairly clear I guess . . . no second guessing involved there.  wink 
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L-188
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 12):
There will always be individual cases where a good thing happens as a result of a citizen carrying a firearm

And every month enough of them occur that National Rifleman Magazine can have a special section dedicated to them. It has been around for years

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 8):
Quoting StuckinMAF (Thread starter):
George Temple has a criminal record, and Officer Harrison was involved in a shooting while employed as a prison guard in East Baton Rouge Parish, where he was suspended for three days back in 1995."

Now I know it is fairly standard for an officer to be placed on some sort of administrative leave after a shooting incident. Most of the numbers I hear is three days. But they usually call it admin. leave and not suspension.

I tend to believe that the story author in this case may be taking a bit of license with their terminolgy so they can grasp at least some sort of an anti-gun stance.
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stuckinMAF
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:45 am

OK, I'll stick my foot into the water now.....

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Since you didn't state your position on this, let me take a stab in the dark at it. "It shows that vigilanteism is a legitimate use of force with concealed weapons, regardless if the person assisted is armed himself, and able to shoot."

I think it is polite for a thread starter to allow others to comment before he tries to act like God over a thread and set a tone. I think that might be why the thread has been somewhat civilized so far, it wasn't started with a slant either way and now I'm just another participant.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with "Vigilantism" (properly spelled). It has to do with defense of another human being who is being viciously assaulted in the process of doing his job as a police officer in trying to issue a citation. The citizen properly recognized that the officer was in grave danger and protected the officer by stopping the assailant. Just because the officer was armed does not mean he is immune from danger, as is vividly illustrated in this case.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
Four rounds from a .45 to the torso and he didn't die?



Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 8):
I will echo a few comments about getting hit four times with a .45 slug. That is a lot of abuse, maybe it was mostly gut shots rather than vital areas then there was the headshot.

As those of us who are familiar with defense handguns are aware, the .45ACP FMJ "hardball" is not the end-all and be-all of defense rounds. (They didn't specify .45ACP or .45Colt, but it's a percentage bet that it's ACP) From the book "Stopping Power" by Evan Marshall ( http://www.stoppingpower.net/books/stopping.asp ), .45ACP FMJ has only a 62% first-shot stop percentage, as compared to a modern, well-designed round (Hydra-Shok or Gold Dot) which is around 95%. I know people that still swear by the "pumpkin balls" though and carry them. It's correct to say, though, that the head shot was the right thing to do when the citizen saw that the "center of mass" shots weren't doing what they were being asked to do. (The rounds could have all gone into an arm or fatty tissue, we won't know about placement for a while yet.) Kudos to him for having the presence of mind to take the proper action under what must have been a tremendous amount of stress, actually seeing someone potentially being beaten to death right before his eyes.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 12):
There are 200 million people in this country. There will always be individual cases where a good thing happens as a result of a citizen carrying a firearm, and there will always be bad individual instances, as well. No matter how you view it, individual anecdotes are not much to bolster either side's case.

True, as you say, an individual case might not be much to bolster one or the other side of the "case". But at least the officer had a chance to defend himself that he might not have had if he was in another country, and at least a competent citizen was near him to assist and legally had the proper tool to do so. I think we'll all have to agree that there are a lot of different ways that this could have ended. But in this case, an officer that was just doing his job is able to go home tonight and be with his family. That's what really counts.


Two more thoughts, just to stir the pot  stirthepot :

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that this story has been totally ignored by the national media?

How do those from other countries feel about this story?

Thanks to everyone for their posts!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
"Vigilantism" (properly spelled).

vigi·lantism or vigi·lante·ism n.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vigilanteism
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MDorBust
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
As those of us who are familiar with defense handguns are aware, the .45ACP FMJ "hardball" is not the end-all and be-all of defense rounds

LoL at me.

I never even considered that he might have loaded anything other than Hydr-Shoks or Silvertips.

FMJ is a no-no as a self defense load.  talktothehand  Keep it on the range.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that this story has been totally ignored by the national media?

it's not news . . . except locally perhaps . . . now if it were the other way around, and the asshole killed the cop and the do-gooder, every network would be all over it like lice on bad meat.

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
How do those from other countries feel about this story?

Oh fuck me, here we go . . . .
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L-188
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:04 am

[quote=MDorBust,reply=20]Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 18):
As those of us who are familiar with defense handguns are aware, the .45ACP FMJ "hardball" is not the end-all and be-all of defense rounds

That is true of most military pistol ammo.
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Citizen Aids Law Officer Being Attacked

Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:17 am

If the description of Stevens' actions is accurate, I would say that he acted not only properly but also with considerable restraint giving Temple multiple chances to back down. I'd say "Job well done" and hope that the officer involved was not injured badly.
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