sabenapilot
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The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:20 pm

Blast after blast...

At least 60 people died in bombings in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, on Tuesday alone.

In the bloodiest of the earlier attacks, 24 died when a bomber blew himself up near a petrol station in one of the Iraqi capital's Shia areas.

Five defence ministry workers died when their convoy was hit by a roadside bomb in eastern Baghdad.

Two British soldiers were killed and another was injured by a roadside bomb on the outskirts of Amara, in the south.

A US soldier was killed by small-arms fire in the west of Baghdad.

A government count of 379 dead and 458 wounded as of Tuesday afternoon was followed by news of at least 23 deaths in a blast at a Baghdad Shia mosque.

The unusual move for the Iraqi government to state death toll figures have been a direct response to a figure of 1,300 dead published by the Washington Post newspaper - a figure Iraqi officials deny.

The stream of attacks come on the waves of increased sectarian violence since the attack on the Shia shrine.

Decrying the upsurge in violence, President Bush said the perpetrators wanted to "destroy in order to create chaos".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4761154.stm

Some questions:
Just when do you stop calling it 'order', and when does 'chaos' start?
When do you admit the country is in fact facing civil war?
When do you admit you've messed up?
 
fumanchewd
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:38 pm

The use of the term "civil war" is incorrect. It would be a religous war. The US civil war was based upon supposedly "civil" issues such as state rights versus federalism as well as the whole slave thing. There is nothing civil about a religuous war. It is blind faith against blind faith. Only a strong hand will ultimately keep the two apart. If the US was to withdraw now, there would be extreme violence. I am not political, but historical, and I believe this with all of my knowledge and heart.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
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yowza
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):
When do you admit you've messed up?

I don't think the US has ever messed up, EVER. Big grin At least that's what many people on this forum have lead my innocent, fragile little mind to believe.

YOWza
 
oly720man
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:50 pm

Did we (US/UK) mess up? Or was little or no attention paid to the possible ramifications of removing a powerful, if despised, political leader and leaving the field free for those with other agendas to carry them out?

We only have to look at what happened in Yugoslavia and Rwanda in very recent memory to see that different ethnic/religious groups in the same country can have very long memories about previous injustices and when the opportunity arises it all gets very bad indeed.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
fumanchewd
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:52 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 2):

I don't think the US has ever messed up, EVER. Big grin At least that's what many people on this forum have lead my innocent, fragile little mind to believe.

It can be funny also, how the incorrect can judge the incorrect.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 2):
that's what many people on this forum have lead my innocent, fragile little mind to believe.

The USA in Iraq from the beginning of its invasion supported religious leaders, a stronger role for religion in general, and a clear de-secularisation

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 3):
Did we (US/UK) mess up?

The USA dissolved the Socialist Ba'ath Party and the army, and therefore
A) weakened the secularist left wing of politics and B) created a security gap.
Neither the party nor the army were "creations" of Saddam, they just had been misused by him for his personal aims. It only would have been necessary to "clean" them of secret-service-agents and Saddam loyalists.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil Wa

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
The USA in Iraq from the beginning of its invasion supported religious leaders, a stronger role for religion in general, and a clear de-secularisation

Come on are you that silly?

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hitler. Weren't they secular? Of course, they were secular facist governments and not secular democracies like the United States. There is a huge difference. The other leaders were afraid of religion and the ways that it could raise solidarity against them in revolutionary movements. In Iraq, the division is religion. Yet the US hopes that the common denominator of Islam will be able to bring them together in the end. Get a clue!

Nobody is foolish enough to think that a government in the Middle East will not be Moslem. The most democratic government in the region (Turkey) is clearly not secular nor even fully democratic. It is obvious that they still find a way to maintain the common Islam quotient of anti-Zionist policies even while applying for the EU. Good luck you Euros! Smile

[Edited 2006-03-01 11:43:29]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 6):
that a government in the Middle East will not be Moslem. The most democratic government in the region (Turkey) is clearly not secular nor even fully democratic. It is obvious that they still find a way to maintain the common Islam quotient of anti-Zionist policies even while applying for the EU.

Turkey has a moderately fundamentalist Prime Minister in government but the country is secularist. Turkey btw is closely allied with Israel. Jordan and Egypt have peace-treaties with Israel. Some Arab countries have diplomatic or trade-mission-wise relations with Israel. Most Arab countries (noteable exception Saudi Arabia) have secular civil laws and NOT Sharia law. In Europe, there not only is Turkey but also Albania and Bosnia-Hercegovina with Muslim majority (Albania 90%). And the Kosovo-Territory also is Muslim. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan are right now implementing extensive bilateral association treaties with the E.U. .
-
No Sir, matters are NOT that "black&white" as you might imagine them to be.
 
cfalk
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):
Just when do you stop calling it 'order', and when does 'chaos' start?

Iraq is a big place, and most of it is relatively peaceful. If you look at TV camera coverage of the streets of Baghdad or elsewhere you see thousands of cars and people walking around. What are they doing? They are on their way to work, or are shopping. Life goes on. Out of 25 million inhabitants, 60 people killed, while tragic, hardly means that the whole place is in chaos. The US has about 60 murders per day, as well.

At a guess, I'd say as soon as you reach an average of a thousand or more deaths per day, then you have chaos.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):
When do you admit the country is in fact facing civil war?

It is, and I don't remember anyone saying otherwise. Bush said it a couble of days ago. If the Sunnis and Shiites really decide to go after each other, you will have a civil war.

But apart from a few incidents, which intensified briefly a week or so ago, that has not happened (yet). They are still faced with civil war, but they aren't there yet, and it is up to the government and the religious leaders to maintain order.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):
When do you admit you've messed up?

Agreed, Iraq was messed up from the beginning, and the predominant part of the blame lies at the feet of the Bush administration and the CIA. But that does not mean you can just throw up your hands and say, "That's enough, we're leaving".
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil Wa

Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
Turkey has a moderately fundamentalist Prime Minister in government but the country is secularist.

Come now, must I tell of the wars in the East?
..and what of your arguements concerning secularism?
Secularism and fanaticism are opponents in your arguement, yet history cleary shows that this is a generalization and not fact.

[Edited 2006-03-01 12:08:01]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
fumanchewd
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil Wa

Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:15 pm

odern Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal (better known as Atat�rk--"father of the Turks"), enacted a constitution 70 years ago which denied the existence of distinct cultural sub-groups in Turkey. As a result, any expression by the Kurds (as well as other minorities in Turkey) of unique ethnic identity has been harshly repressed. For example, until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language--although widespread--was illegal. To this day, any talk that hints of Kurdish nationalism is deemed separatism, and grounds for imprisonment.

So the famous Kemal, whom the airport is named after "father of Turks", denied them their language. This problem still exists today.

I suppose they are evil if they will not speak Turkish or Arabic.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/turkey_background_kurds.htm

Islamic imperialists.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
RichardPrice
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:16 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
Out of 25 million inhabitants, 60 people killed, while tragic, hardly means that the whole place is in chaos. The US has about 60 murders per day, as well.

In the US in 2001, for a population of approx 281million people, there were 16,037 murders, and yet 9/11 was significant*.

The same thing is happening in Iraq.

*Im not dissing 9/11, but its a good example of how events are not related. These killings are above and beyond the normal crime rate because they dont share the same motivation. The 60 killings that the thread starter highlights would cause public concerns in any country in the world, because they are outside the 'normal' crime rate.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:29 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
Iraq is a big place, and most of it is relatively peaceful.

If square footage covered in blood is how you judge vacation spots, the Western Front would have looked pretty good too.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 9):
tell of the wars in the East?

you mean the Napoleonic invasion of Russia ? Hitler's invasion of Russia ? or the Russian-Japanese wars ? human history is full of wars in ALL regions

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 9):
Secularism and fanaticism are opponents in your arguement

no, they are NOT. Nationalism is secular by definition and can be the basis for much fanatism. Religion can be come the basis for fanatism, just as any non-religious ideology. Fanatism results out of narrow-minded thinking.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 10):
Kemal, whom the airport is named after "father of Turks", denied them their language. This problem still exists today.

true, Mustafa Kemal Pasha established the Turkish Republic as a unitarian fully Turkish national country. The "Kurds" were regarded as "Mountain-Turks" and the father of a Turkish school-friend spoke about "those bandits in the East".

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 10):
will not speak Turkish or Arabic.

No, Mustafa Kemal in the mid-20ies launched a through "De-Arabisation" campaign, starting with the change of writing but going on into vocabulary.
 
greasespot
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
The US has about 60 murders per day, as well.

But the US does not have 60 murders all at once casued by an explosion in a major city...

AS much spin as they put on it Iraq is a mess. And will continue to be a mess no matter how many political photo ops GWB makes there.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
halls120
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):
When do you admit the country is in fact facing civil war?
When do you admit you've messed up?

Good question. Let's hope we don't follow the Belgian example and wait 40 years.

Quote:
Belgium faces up to its bloody past

Forty one years after the event, Belgium has finally apologised for its role in the murder of Patrice Lumumba, an icon of the Left and Africa's most promising post-colonial leader, writes Andrew Osborn

Friday February 8, 2002


He was shot by firing squad, dismembered and then dissolved in a vat of sulphuric acid, but the spirit of Patrice Lumumba could not be extinguished.
This week, forty one years later, Belgium, the former colonial power in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (later to be renamed Zaire, and then after the fall of Mobutu Sese Seko in 1997, the Democratic Republic of the Congo), apologised for its role in a political execution which ushered in 36 years of dictatorship under the tyrannical leadership of Mobutu Sese Seko.

Belgium may not have physically pulled the trigger, but it stood by and watched as others did, failed to protect Lumumba even though it knew he was in mortal danger, lent its military expertise and personnel to those who would murder him and then did its best to cover up what had happened.
That much has been established by a Belgian parliamentary inquiry which, after two years, has just wound up its work. No "smoking gun" was found but the panel did ascertain that Belgium bore "moral responsibility" for Lumumba's death.

This week's apology, proffered by Belgium's foreign minister Louis Michel, was cathartic and long-overdue.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
frequentflyer
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):
Just when do you stop calling it 'order', and when does 'chaos' start?

When do you have a sensible and thorough evaluation of the situation before calling the current one a civil war?

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):

When do you admit the country is in fact facing civil war?

See above

Quoting Sabenapilot (Thread starter):

When do you admit you've messed up?

When do you admit that having a brutal dictator in place before you did anything during 20-some years was worse than whats going on right now?
Take off and live
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
the Belgian example and wait 40 years

Well, as far as I know it, Belgium was behind State-President Kasavubu, while the USA were supporting General Mobutu . So that the White House might follow up now to say sorry .
 
Gary2880
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
Out of 25 million inhabitants, 60 people killed



Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
281million people, there were 16,037 murders

25 million people and the murders total in the area of 30,000... in relation to the total number of people to the number of murders. it is quite bad if you did want to compare the 2, which i dont.

i heard one of our military brasses on the radio the other day saying the british controlled area in the south the situation for our soldiers actually continues to get worse each day rather than better, and that cant but hurt the iraqi civilians also.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
halls120
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
the Belgian example and wait 40 years

Well, as far as I know it, Belgium was behind State-President Kasavubu, while the USA were supporting General Mobutu . So that the White House might follow up now to say sorry .

LOL, right. And we colonized Africa during the 20th century?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
slz396
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Let's hope we don't follow the Belgian example and wait 40 years.

You probably think Belgians will be blindly patriotic and defend my country's actions in the Congo. Well, guess what? They won't! Belgium indeed has a very big moral responsibility in the execution of the first freely elected Congolese Prime Minister by not intervening to save him from certain death after the coup d'etat by Mobutu. Shame on all those (right wing) leaders of my country who deliberately turned a blind eye and a very big thumbs up for our liberal foreign minister Louis Michel to publicly admit the wrong-doing and apologize for it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
So the White House might follow up now to say sorry too.

Good suggestion!

After all, Lumumba was rendered over to the rebels (who 'surprise surprise' executed him) without any objections from Brussels, Paris or Washington because of his communist leaning nationalistic ideology, which was not very much liked by the former colonial powers on the continent nor by the USA who were afraid to see the huge and wealthy African country turn into another red zone on the world map.

Can you post us a link to any sort of public US apology too now, Halls120?
It might make much more interesting reading, since the exact same method of rendering unwanted detainees too certain less than democratic regimes to do the job for you is something still practiced by the USA today.

[Edited 2006-03-01 15:21:36]
 
RichardPrice
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 18):
25 million people and the murders total in the area of 30,000... in relation to the total number of people to the number of murders. it is quite bad if you did want to compare the 2, which i dont.

You make my point for me. The 'background murders', which would happen in any society, are hardly noticed and thus the 'US has 60 murders a day' statement by a previous poster is not a valid comparison because the 60 killings in the thread starter are NOT background killings, and they would be noticeable in ANY society.

Thats the point I was making with regard to 9/11. 16,000 murders in 2001, roughly the same each year since, and yet the 2,500 killings in 9/11 were hugely more significant than the 'background murders' that year.

It would be the same in any country - murder happens in every country but the British 7/7 was significant, the Madrid train bombings were significant while your average murder isnt significant.

Have a significant largescale killing each week and your society rapidly edges toward lawlessness as self protection takes precident over everything else.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
LOL, right. And we colonized Africa during the 20th century?

no
--
the USA did their "conquest" by more modern methods
 
slider
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:48 am

Iraq is an artificial construct anyhow, cobbled together by the British.

After deposing Saddam, the nation SHOULD HAVE been split up into the respective independent states as presently divided along religious and ethnic grounds, IMO.

You can't force them to be united. Let the Kurds be independent, the Sunnis and Shiites can have their own land as well. The practical considerations would have to be worked out, of course, but why should this revolt be surprising to anyone?

They're finally free TO act out. Under Saddam, they were all victims. Now they're empowered and emboldened.
 
SWISSER
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
LOL, right. And we colonized Africa during the 20th century?

Our kingdom colonised Congo, we don't elect our kings.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 20):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Let's hope we don't follow the Belgian example and wait 40 years.

You probably think Belgians will be blindly patriotic and defend my country's actions in the Congo. Well, guess what? They won't! Belgium indeed has a very big moral responsibility in the execution of the first freely elected Congolese Prime Minister by not intervening to save him from certain death after the coup d'etat by Mobutu. Shame on all those (right wing) leaders of my country who deliberately turned a blind eye and a very big thumbs up for our liberal foreign minister Louis Michel to publicly admit the wrong-doing and apologize for it.

 bigthumbsup 
I will be very happy the time we could finally get rid of Leopolds hobby.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 20):
Can you post us a link to any sort of public US apology too now, Halls120?
It might make much more interesting reading, since the exact same method of rendering unwanted detainees too certain less than democratic regimes to do the job for you is something still practiced by the USA today.

I' am very interested too is such a link.
I guess the seek for weapons of mass destruction to cover up operation oil wars of the Bonanza family on the wheel in the white house is still justified.
What time is top of descent?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:56 am

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
qr332
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:01 am

Cfalk and other right wing nuts:
Pathetic. Completley pathetic. The country is falling apart and the best you guys can come up with is "Gee, until a few thosand start dying a day, it shoud be fine!"

If 60 people were being killed by bombs and gun daily in your country, houses of worship blown up left and right, and if you weren't feeling safe walking down the street, don't you think something would be wrong? Yes, there are Iraqis commuting around the city, gee, why would that be? Oh, now I remember: they need to do something called providing for their family despite the circumstances. Do you think that just because Iraqis shop and go to work everything is great?

I am sick and tired of the "Iraq is a big country" argument, it is falling apart, and fast.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 23):
be independent

A) Kurds : if they can form their independent state inside what is Iraq today, and form Kurdistan they will, earlier or later, then they will push to get Turkish Kurdistan liberated and united with what now is Northern Iraq
B) Shi'ites, primarily in the South : they then will push to get united either with Iran in total or just with Arabistan/Khuzistan (Abadan PLUS region)
C) Sunnis, primarily in and around Baghdad, and to the west and North-west of Baghdad : may possibly get united with Syria, under the Damascus leadership
-
suppose, not everything exactly to the liking of those in the White House (and around that area)
 
Toulouse
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 1):

Fumanchewd, sorry but I'd just like to take you up on one thing here. I'm a little bit baffled by your claim that if the US leaves and there is a war in Iraq, that this could not be described as a "civil war" but a "war of religions". Decided to recheck my encylopedias to make sure I wasn't missing out on something, and it more or less confirmed my thoughts. So intead of typing in everything I read, I then check wikipedia.com (don't know how reliable a source this is, but gives more or less (yet very summarised) version of what I read... here is how it describes the term "civil war":

A civil war is a war in which the parties within the same country or empire struggle for national control of state power. As in any war, the conflict may be over other matters such as religion, ethnicity, or distribution of wealth. Some civil wars are also categorized as revolutions when major societal restructuring is a possible outcome of the conflict. An insurgency, whether successful or not, is likely to be classified as a civil war by some historians if, and only if, organized armies fight conventional battles. Other historians state the criteria for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not).
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
A) Kurds : if they can form their independent state inside what is Iraq today, and form Kurdistan they will, earlier or later, then they will push to get Turkish Kurdistan liberated and united with what now is Northern Iraq
B) Shi'ites, primarily in the South : they then will push to get united either with Iran in total or just with Arabistan/Khuzistan (Abadan PLUS region)
C) Sunnis, primarily in and around Baghdad, and to the west and North-west of Baghdad : may possibly get united with Syria, under the Damascus leadership

Bingo. Iraq has never been a democracy, and it never will be in its current state. Britain did a piss-poor job of defining the country's borders following WWI, and the only thing that's kept the country from civil war until now has been the supression of brutal dictatorships. Heck, everyone who's ever ruled Iraq (the first regime installed by Britain aside) has come to power through violent overthrows of the government. These factions of the Iraqi population have no mentionable history of cooperation, and it's unlikely they're going to start now.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):
a democracy,

Have you seen the pictures (on CNN) of Iraqi tanks on the roads of Baghdad right these days, trying to restore order ? This means that there now are Iraqi tank-forces commanders, and of course also generals. THAT may give you a rough idea what inevitably is to happen after the impending withdrawal of the foreign occupation forces.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 23):
They're finally free TO act out. Under Saddam, they were all victims. Now they're empowered and emboldened.

Agreed

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26):
The country is falling apart and the best you guys can come up with is "Gee, until a few thosand start dying a day, it shoud be fine!"

And the best you can come up with yourself, what is it? Nostalgy for Saddam?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
Have you seen the pictures (on CNN) of Iraqi tanks on the roads of Baghdad right these days, trying to restore order ? This means that there now are Iraqi tank-forces commanders, and of course also generals. THAT may give you a rough idea what inevitably is to happen after the impending withdrawal of the foreign occupation forces.

By some standards this could be considered as whining. What's wrong with a country trying to hold itself together? Did you expect it to be smooth? And instant?

So much negativity around here it's baffling. I wish some Iraqis could participate.
Take off and live
 
cfcuq
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 16):
When do you admit that having a brutal dictator in place before you did anything during 20-some years was worse than whats going on right now?

Don't forget that this "brutal dictator" was empowered and supported by the U.S. until 1981, when Saddam began digging his heels in and began to march to his own drummer. You ever see an Iraqui Malibu ? These vehicles were ordered by Saddam to reward his henchmen, then Saddam decided to show everyone how indepentent he was and cancelled the order. General Motors and the U.S. government suddenly had an embarrassing situation and 5000 vehicles on their hands. The solution? Dump the cars in Canadian market. You should have seen these things, 4 dr sedans, 229 V-6, with 3spd manual floor shifted trans, air cond, and no heated back glass, sold for next to nothing, many are still on the road here. Saddam stated only yesterday that he warned the world that he was the only person that could hold Iraq together, a position the U.S apparrently agreed with until the invasion.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
this could be considered as whining

could be, but should NOT as it is NOT

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
What's wrong with a country trying to hold itself together?

Nothing. And what is right with a country turning to a decent general for leadership ?

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
Did you expect it to be smooth? And instant?

Neither. But do not quite agree with the ideas of those in the White House

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
some Iraqis could participate

sure, but do you think they all would have one and the same opinion ? do you really expect them to be happy about US-occupation ? would you be upset if some of them tell you that they now not only have no safety in daily life but are less free in daily life then under Saddam, in spite of "democracy" ? would you be upset if Iraqi women told you that the rights and possibilities of women and their freedom had been much reduced if compared with Saddam's times ? True, just as the love of some Russians for Stalin, a lot of such "saintification" is nonsense, but in case of Iraq, a lot of all such things is correct.
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
this could be considered as whining

could be, but should NOT as it is NOT

Question of appreciation

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
What's wrong with a country trying to hold itself together?

Nothing. And what is right with a country turning to a decent general for leadership ?

Better than undecent civilians.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
Did you expect it to be smooth? And instant?

Neither. But do not quite agree with the ideas of those in the White House

I'll grant you, there are many ways to address the current situation that's for sure.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 31):
some Iraqis could participate

sure, but do you think they all would have one and the same opinion ? do you really expect them to be happy about US-occupation ? would you be upset if some of them tell you that they now not only have no safety in daily life but are less free in daily life then under Saddam, in spite of "democracy" ? would you be upset if Iraqi women told you that the rights and possibilities of women and their freedom had been much reduced if compared with Saddam's times ? True, just as the love of some Russians for Stalin, a lot of such "saintification" is nonsense, but in case of Iraq, a lot of all such things is correct.

No they would have differing opinions but more qualified than ours.

Curious about them being (un)happy with the occupation, really curious. But there are more and more internet users now in Irak, hopefully we'll get new members from there.

I resent your qualification of life under Saddam as better than now, especially as this is a transition period and freedom is the criteria (!)

Looks like you are looking at the current situation with two lenses: the first one magnifies the current issues, the second one fades the issues of dictatorship.
Take off and live
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 20):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Let's hope we don't follow the Belgian example and wait 40 years.

You probably think Belgians will be blindly patriotic and defend my country's actions in the Congo. Well, guess what? They won't! Belgium indeed has a very big moral responsibility in the execution of the first freely elected Congolese Prime Minister by not intervening to save him from certain death after the coup d'etat by Mobutu. Shame on all those (right wing) leaders of my country who deliberately turned a blind eye and a very big thumbs up for our liberal foreign minister Louis Michel to publicly admit the wrong-doing and apologize for it.

I think nothing of the sort. I just find it odd for someone to be challenging us to admit we were wrong when it took his country 40 years to make a similar admission. Seems to me we get 38 more years, right?  Wink

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 20):
Can you post us a link to any sort of public US apology too now, Halls120?

Just what is it that you expect the US to apologize for? It can't be for our colonization of Africa - you Europeans carved it up for yourselves long before we became a player on the world stage.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
LOL, right. And we colonized Africa during the 20th century?

no
--
the USA did their "conquest" by more modern methods

Really! What parts of Africa have we colonized, and by what methods?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2194
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RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
Just what is it that you expect the US to apologize for? It can't be for our colonization of Africa - you Europeans carved it up for yourselves long before we became a player on the world stage.

Yep, but that's not happening in 2006.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:47 am

Halls120,
what exactly do you want to point out?
That because europeans had colony's 100 years ago it is justified for your current administration to create you own colony now?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
Just what is it that you expect the US to apologize for?

Being the largest aggresor of the last 50 years maybe?
Justified or not.
What time is top of descent?
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
Life goes on. Out of 25 million inhabitants, 60 people killed, while tragic, hardly means that the whole place is in chaos. The US has about 60 murders per day, as well.

Apples to oranges Charles and you know it. Leaving aside your implied acceptance of the death toll, the 60 people killed were in bombings alone, murders and other violent crimes are unreported - and could easily be as high. But more importantly, if any other nation were having daily bombings in its capital, with dozens of deaths, the situation would be described as chaotic, so how can it not be in Iraq?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
Agreed, Iraq was messed up from the beginning, and the predominant part of the blame lies at the feet of the Bush administration and the CIA. But that does not mean you can just throw up your hands and say, "That's enough, we're leaving".

Agreed - but the $1,000,000 question that our illustrious leaders have refused to answer is, what is to be done? The rote repetition of 'stay the course', and 'we will train the Iraqis to defend themselves', can no longer be considered sufficient, as it's obviously not working. The death toll has done nothing but climb, and the rate of deaths is also climbing. Americans and Iraqis deserve concrete answers on how the insurgency is going to be addressed, how we're going to restore calm, and how we're going to know when we can leave.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 37):
Halls120,
what exactly do you want to point out?
That because europeans had colony's 100 years ago it is justified for your current administration to create you own colony now?

He's got you there Halls - pointing out past transgressions is a pretty weak defense for our current actions. I don't doubt Sabenapilot was trolling when he started this thread, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't seem to have a solution for what's happening in Iraq, and no amount of finger pointing at Belgium's past is going to change that.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 37):
Halls120,
what exactly do you want to point out?
That because europeans had colony's 100 years ago it is justified for your current administration to create you own colony now?

Not at all. I'm just suggesting that people who live in glass houses - european colonizers - shouldn't be throwing stones at us. Thanks in large part to European colonialism, Africa and the middle east are political basket cases.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 37):
Being the largest aggresor of the last 50 years maybe?
Justified or not.

If we are in fact the largest aggressor of the past 50 years - and that's a discussion for another thread - we get 40 years of grace before anyone from Belguim gets to criticize us for not apologizing.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 38):
Quoting SWISSER (Reply 37):
Halls120,
what exactly do you want to point out?
That because europeans had colony's 100 years ago it is justified for your current administration to create you own colony now?

He's got you there Halls - pointing out past transgressions is a pretty weak defense for our current actions. I don't doubt Sabenapilot was trolling when he started this thread, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't seem to have a solution for what's happening in Iraq, and no amount of finger pointing at Belgium's past is going to change that.

No, he doesn't. I NEVER said that their past transgressions were a defense for our actions. sabena was indeed trolling. Instead of asking us to provide an answer for the current situation in Iraq - a legitimate question - he arrogantly proclaims that we owe him an apology.

Bullsh*t.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 39):
Not at all. I'm just suggesting that people who live in glass houses - european colonizers - shouldn't be throwing stones at us. Thanks in large part to European colonialism, Africa and the middle east are political basket cases.

That's somehow irrelevant, but throwing stones is defenitly not the case,
It's more a wake up call, or an Executive officer giving alternatives to the Captain talking in NAVY terms.
I personally like the US very much and I have spent a large part of my time over there at family in NY.

There was always a blind trust between our democracy's here and the US, and I do find it horrible that that blind trust is completely wasted by 1 single administration who contantly lied and tricked everyone as good as possible for there own cause.
You guys are currently spending a very large part of money to the situation in Iraq that could have been spent in the general interest of the US citizens.
It may sound like a democratic banner, but that is just the way it is.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 39):
Instead of asking us to provide an answer for the current situation in Iraq - a legitimate question - he arrogantly proclaims that we owe him an apology.

Funny, I do remember a party of a US delegation visiting Belgium for answers due to our unique democracy of 3 different governments overlooked by the federal parlement of Belgium, it might work for Iraq, because without the 3 different goverments overlooked we would have been faught out a civil war for years, now it's done politically in a civilised manner.
Our flag are simply three colors, nothing more.

I don't demand an apology in any way, it's your colony now anyway!  Wink
BTW, what is trolling? I guess stirring in the pot or something?
What time is top of descent?
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
Have you seen the pictures (on CNN) of Iraqi tanks on the roads of Baghdad right these days, trying to restore order ? This means that there now are Iraqi tank-forces commanders, and of course also generals. THAT may give you a rough idea what inevitably is to happen after the impending withdrawal of the foreign occupation forces.

I don't see the connection between that and what you quoted from my post...
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:34 pm

Here some views of an Iraqi who has his Blog-site under www.raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com :
*********************************************
Thursday, March 02, 2006
Make Levees not war
-----------------------
I'm in New Orleans working in one of the reconstruction campaigns
-
I'll be back to the Bay Area soon, so expect a lot of pictures!
-
Posted By Raed Jarrar at 6:01 AM
-
***************************************************
Saturday, February 25, 2006
Shia and Sunni Iraqis ask the Occupation to Leave
--
A number of the main Iraqi Sunni and Shia parties had several meetings today. The meetings reflected a united Muslim front against any attempts of splitting the Iraqi people along sectarian and ethnic lines. The main Shia and Sunni parties asked the occupation troops to schedule withdrawal as soon as possible. It's important to mention that the current sectarian tension was handled very efficiently by the Iraqi religious and social leaders working with their elected national government, and that the occupation troops and authorities didn't take any part in "protecting Iraqis from each other", which is the bush administration's number one excuse for keeping the troops in Iraq.
--
According to the latest polls, the majority (70%)of the Iraqis want the occupation troops to leave Iraq, and the majority of the US people (55%) say that it was a mistake to send the troops to Iraq in the first place. Even Bill O'reilly, the neo-con who would have cut me to small pieces and fed me to the dogs if I had said the words troops and home in the same sentence a couple of weeks ago, is now asking to bring the US troops back home! "Let's bring the troop back home, and spend the money in rebuilding New Orleans instead of wasting it in Iraq" .
--
Posted By Raed Jarrar at 9:59 PM
-
*************************************************
Wednesday, February 22, 2006
A Blog is much safer than Al-Askari Shrine
--
Today’s attack on Al-Askari Shrine is a tragic milestone in the history of Iraq under the occupation. It’s a sad day for all Iraqis, Muslims and non Muslims, Arabs and non Arabs. Iraqis are very very angry now. This attack was followed by more condemned small attacks against some 89 mosques around the country in a manifestation of the sectarian tension growing under the US led occupation, but all of these attacks were condemned and stopped.
--
When the Iraqi volcano erupts, it won't burn Iraqis. Unlike what the bush administration is trying to promote and claim, Iraqis never had a civil war, and they’ll never have one unless the occupation troops stay in Iraq. The US troops should leave Iraq as soon as possible so that Iraqis would have the time and space to heal their wounds and deal with their internal issues. The US army shouldn't be left in Iraq to face the ire of millions of Iraqis.
--
Today’s attack was yet another disaster that will be contained and dealt with by all the different Iraqi religious and social leaders. I hope this incident will not cause any further violence against anyone, and I hope it'll prove to the world that Iraqis are capable of handling the most tragic crisis without turning against each other. The only help anyone outside Iraq can offer in the meantime is to ask the occupation troops to give Iraq back to Iraqis, or at least stop killing them in the occupation prisons.
--
On a second note, I received a fresh threat this morning from an occupation supporter. Ladies and Gentlemen: as hot and crisp as an Iraqi Sammoon:
“You might refrain from the discourse of such publicly. You never know when a Marine might be nearby. Although you're surrounded by the loony left out there, that kind of lie said in the wrong place will get you in a lot of trouble.

So be careful where you twist reality. A blog is much safer than a public square. Even in San Francisco”. It seems that my praise of In-N-Out didn’t calm this dude down!
--
Posted By Raed Jarrar at 11:32 PM
--
***************************************************
The lines above are NOT from me, but of Mr Raed Jarrar
-
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2194
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 38):

Thanks for that post Searpqx... I'm fully behind your reasoning.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):

ME AVN FAN, very interesting post, thanks. Let's see how some of our fellow a.netters respond to this, and many will probably just say that is it's a blog, it doesn't mean anything (mainly because it doesn't seem to approve what many try to believe that Mr. Bush is doing)...
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Gary2880
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
The US troops should leave Iraq as soon as possible



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
"Let's bring the troop back home, and spend the money in rebuilding New Orleans instead of wasting it in Iraq" .

i dont think thats right 1 little bit, but if hes an iraqi and thats what he wants... his choice i guess.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
You might refrain from the discourse of such publicly. You never know when a Marine might be nearby

LOL! you have to laugh or you would cry really isnt it. i find it quite ironic that that this right wing promoter of free speech democracy used the phrase 'twist reality'
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 40):
That's somehow irrelevant, but throwing stones is defenitly not the case,
It's more a wake up call, or an Executive officer giving alternatives to the Captain talking in NAVY terms.
I personally like the US very much and I have spent a large part of my time over there at family in NY.

There was always a blind trust between our democracy's here and the US, and I do find it horrible that that blind trust is completely wasted by 1 single administration who contantly lied and tricked everyone as good as possible for there own cause.
You guys are currently spending a very large part of money to the situation in Iraq that could have been spent in the general interest of the US citizens.
It may sound like a democratic banner, but that is just the way it is.

As I said in the post above, asking us legitimate questions about how we intend to resolve the Iraq mess is fair game. Asking us for an "apology" is bulls*t. It was that part of Sabena's post I objected to.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 45):
for an "apology"

Those "apologies" for things of history are b.s. anyway.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:43 pm

The daily update on the mess in IRAQ form the BBC:

Iraq is undergoing one of its worst periods of violence, with at least 18 people being killed in attacks this Thursday alone:

  • At least nine members of the Iraqi security forces died in an attack on a checkpoint near the northern city of Tikrit.
  • A bomb blast inside a minibus killed at least five people and wounded eight in Baghdad's Shia district of Sadr City.
  • At least four people were killed and 11 wounded when a bomb exploded at a vegetable market in Zafaraniya, south-east Baghdad.


A senior UN official has blamed the increasing bloodshed on an "endemic" breakdown of security. A situation not likely to change soon since Kurdish and Sunni leaders have said they will not join the national unity government of Ibrahim Jaafari.

Ibrahim Jaafari had already been widely criticised for poor performance as Prime Minister since he was nominated last month, beating his nearest rival by just one vote, due to the support of radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr.

Recently Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari has also come under fire for appointing Shia politicians to the main ministries in his government and for allegedly allowing the interior ministry to operate secret death squads targeting Sunni Arabs!

The Kurdish and the Sunni groups now say Ibrahim Jaafari is not appropriate as PM and they cannot form a cabinet with him as he is not neutral. This means chances for the formation of a national unity government encompassing all of Iraq's ethnic, religious and political groups seem to get smaller by the day.

Is this the feared political deadlock which will create the power vacuum and the chaos which will overwhelm the whole country soon? A civil war in Iraq would not only destroy the chances of any elected central government, it could also lead to the break-up of the country and would export even more instability and violence across the wider Middle East and beyond.

for more, read:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4765456.stm

or even better:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4741616.stm
 
slider
Posts: 6820
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 29):
Bingo. Iraq has never been a democracy, and it never will be in its current state. Britain did a piss-poor job of defining the country's borders following WWI, and the only thing that's kept the country from civil war until now has been the supression of brutal dictatorships. Heck, everyone who's ever ruled Iraq (the first regime installed by Britain aside) has come to power through violent overthrows of the government. These factions of the Iraqi population have no mentionable history of cooperation, and it's unlikely they're going to start now.

Absolutely on the money!

Iraq should be split up. Or we're going to have to deal with this crap again at some point in the future...mark my words.
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: The End Of All US Illusions For Iraq: Civil War!?

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:38 am

Hey folks.

Am preparing for an exam tomorrow, so not much time to spend here unfortunately  Sad

Thanks however to AVN FAN for taking the tine to post the blog, I'll be happy to keep discussing next week as this thread is interesting
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