Pope
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:27 pm

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...US-RELIGION-DUTCH-BURQA.xml&rpc=22

For a culture that prides itself on tolerance, this seems very close minded.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
UK_Dispatcher
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:33 pm

Their justification for it is well argued, but sadly I can imagine a lot of Dutch flags burning if this goes ahead.

Still, I say they go for it.
 
AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
this seems very close minded.

Hmm, a Belgian town banned burqas under existing laws that require people to be readily identifiable. No outrage there that I've seen. But the man who proposed this in the Netherlands has to live under heavy guard. I wonder what this says about the Dutch muslims if this is the case.
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Pope
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:38 pm

Where I see a disconnect in the Muslim religion is that they insist that Western women travelling in their countries honor their practices and traditions. However, they seem unwilling to respect the practices, traditional and laws of Western countries when they travel there.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:49 pm

Although I have never been a big supporter of the Niqab (Islam urges women to cover their body not their face and hands) I personally think that such a law should be passed with certain amendments. The banning of a hijab would show a extreme form of intolerance for a country which prouds in itself to being tolerant, but the banning of a niqab should be acceptable to the moderate Dutch Muslims. When in Rome do as the Romans Do, covering yourself from head to toe and walking on the streets of a western country contradicts that statement thoroughly.



[Edited 2006-03-07 15:51:06]
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KaiGywer
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:05 am

I don't think this is right. The world has just been victim to riots because of some cartoons. The western world is defending these (so am I) as freedom of speech, yet the Dutch want to prohibit the use of (to Muslims) a religious practice. Do I think women should have to wear burqas? No. Do I think they should have the right to do so? Yes.

So as a matter of fairness, I think muslim women should be able to wear whatever they want, including burqas. On the other hand, I also think western women visiting muslim countries should be able to wear what they want. But let us not drop to the level of those countries, and forcing a dress code on visitors/citizens.
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luv2fly
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:09 am

I'm sorry though I feel our Country our rules. If you do not like it, simple solution don't relocate here.
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ltbewr
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:17 am

Here in the USA, we totally tolorate the wearing of religious clothing or coverings as perscribed by their faith in public, in public schools and even in private work places. It isn't uncommon for women to wear even burqas in public while shopping or outside or their homes in the NYC/northern New Jersey area I live in. Those of other religious faiths as well have no real restrictions as to the wearing of full clothing or symbolic items of clothing as to their faith. There is one conflicting situation where this is an issue in the USA as to where a full face picture is required for driver's licenses, passports and other photo identification where covering the face are not allowed. There was a case in the State of Florida a couple of years ago where a woman who was a Muslim would not allow a picture for her driver's license without her face covering and therefore had to be denied it. This could be the problem in Europe as well that the Dutch are now trying to deal with.
I am surprised that any European country, with almost all of them having well known past histories of religious intolarance, would even consider regulation as to what a person wears in public as to their faith. I wonder too, if such laws as in France and now proposed in The Netherlands, are in conflict with any international treaties?
 
ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:49 am

Geert Wilders, the populist member of parliament who first proposed the burqa ban, said : "The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights."
----
He may be right in a way. The "timing" however looks rather like an act of revenge. If consequent, then the Dutch have to prohibit Jews from wearing hats, "Mediterranean" Christians from wearing "extra-size" crosses, etc . And might then also put a "clothing-police-unit" into action to survey the matter . Suggest, they build "re-education camps" in which all such women and girls are re-educated to get around in mini-skirts and minimal clothing in general -- and the "cross-wearers" to wear some kind of Dutch flag around their necks.
 
ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 7):
though I feel our Country our rules

people who are there relocated there before now and that means BEFORE this new law. And to get "out/back" in reality is not easy or practically impossible. You apparently forget that many of the people concerned did NOT move to the Netherlands due to the romantics of the Grachten at night.
 
ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):
those countries, and forcing a dress code on visitors/citizens

Most of "those" countries do NOT force a dress code on visitors /citizens. Most Arabs (Muslims) in the BeNeLux-countries originate from the Maghreb, and these countries do NOT force dress codes ..... . Few Arabs in the BeNeLux originate from Saudi Arabia.
 
AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
If consequent, then the Dutch have to prohibit Jews from wearing hats, "Mediterranean" Christians from wearing "extra-size" crosses, etc .

None of the items you listed prevent people from being identified in public.
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vc10
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:08 am

People have the right to dress as they like seems to be the argument so I think people should be able to walk naked through London during the summer so as to keep cool  faint  but I an sure the police if you can get them away from prosecuting motorist, would take a dim view of it.
Even if you won your right to do it our Mr Blair would I am sure dream up way to tax you for doing it

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ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
prevent people from being identified in public

neither does the HIJAB (see under post #5 )
 
AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
neither does the HIJAB (see under post #5 )

Where is this being proposed to be banned in the Netherlands? I only read "face veils" not "head scarves".
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jaysit
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
If consequent, then the Dutch have to prohibit Jews from wearing hats, "Mediterranean" Christians from wearing "extra-size" crosses, etc .

None of the items you listed prevent people from being identified in public.

But identification of individuals is not the basis of this ban on the Burkha. The ban is based on a perceived degradation of women who don the burkha. And, of course, it is degradation of women, but to create a ban on the burkha on civil rights grounds will be a tough case to make. In any case, even if the Dutch parliament decides that they will make an exception for a full burkha, why should Muslims complain? They can still wear head scarves, a hijab, etc.
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CO7e7
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 5):
The banning of a hijab would show a extreme form of intolerance for a country which prouds in itself to being tolerant, but the banning of a niqab should be acceptable to the moderate Dutch Muslims. When in Rome do as the Romans Do, covering yourself from head to toe and walking on the streets of a western country contradicts that statement thoroughly.

Very Well said. You can be conservative and religious and at the same time Identifiable in public.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
Most of "those" countries do NOT force a dress code on visitors /citizens. Most Arabs (Muslims) in the BeNeLux-countries originate from the Maghreb, and these countries do NOT force dress codes ..... . Few Arabs in the BeNeLux originate from Saudi Arabia.

In Jerusalem, there is no mandatory dress code enforced on visitors/citizens. A lot of muslim residents do wear the Hijab. On the other hand, we have tourists from all over the world who walk around the old city wearing shorts and tank tops (yes females!). Having said that, i have to note that you can wear anything you want anywhere except in Religious places. If you want to enter a church or a mosque to visit or to pray you have to cover up simply because it is more respectful.
 
AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
But identification of individuals is not the basis of this ban on the Burkha. The ban is based on a perceived degradation of women who don the burkha.

That's correct. In Belgium, it was banned on an existing law that all persons must be identifiable in public.

If it wasn't too far of a stretch for the U.S. Supreme Court to give military recruiters a carte blanche to violate a campus' bans on employers who discriminate against gays and lesbians due to an overriding "need to raise armies", there should be no problem, if the Netherlands wishes to do so, to enact a similar law as Belgium has, and be done with it. It accomplishes the same thing and still allows religious expression.
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ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
People have the right to dress as they like seems to be the argument so I think people should be able to walk naked through London during the summer so as to keep cool

suggest, you pressurize your M.P. to launch a law-proposal for this in the House of Commons. Might make a little bit of a difference in those old bricks !

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
Mr Blair would I am sure dream up way to tax you for doing it

well, there possibly will be a "walk naked through London annoyance tax" of UK� 25.98 per person.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
Where is this being proposed to be banned in the Netherlands? I only read "face veils" not "head scarves".

the text shows "and other Muslim face coverings", raising the question what a "face covering" is.
 
AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
the text shows "and other Muslim face coverings", raising the question what a "face covering" is.

Please don't tell me after all this time on the earth, you find it difficult to recognize a "face" vs. a "head".
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MD11Engineer
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:20 am

There is still another point:
What about school activies for girls like sports, swimming, sexual education in biology class and class trips (with supervised overnight stay, girls in one dorm supervised by a female teacher, boys in another dorm, supervised bya male teacher)? I know that here more conservative Muslims try to have their daughters excempted from such school activities if they are coeducational and IMO this hinders the girl's education.
But there have been similar cases with some Baptist families who refused to send their children to regular schools because of sexual eduaction and evolution theory in biology class.

Jan
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ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
But identification of individuals is not the basis of this ban on the Burkha. The ban is based on a perceived degradation of women who don the burkha. And, of course, it is degradation of women

THIS exactly is what I had in post #9 . And fully agree. And I in general do NOT believe Muslim women declaring their wearing of such gear as being "their own will" and their "showing to be Muslim" as it in general simply is the will of their husbands, their fathers, their families.
-

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
even if the Dutch parliament decides that they will make an exception for a full burkha, why should Muslims complain? They can still wear head scarves, a hijab, etc.

absolutely correct
-

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
you find it difficult to recognize a "face" vs. a "head".

I have no problem with that. But I first do NOT know the real law-text and second how the Dutch will interpret their law and third HOW they will put it into practice.
 
ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
sports, swimming,

particularily SWIMMING is important, and European schools should not yield on that, except maybe to have classes "split" into the boys-section and the girls-section just as it happens (well at least DID happen) for geometric drawing and, at least in "upper" schools sports. But again, that also Muslim girls have swimming (and sports) is important. The death-toll each summer along European lakes (more than along the seashores, amazingly) includes overproportinally many people from Mediterranean countries and MiddleEastern countries who canNOT swim.
 
Kay
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:42 am

In 500 years, Islamic women will be what Christian women are today. No offense intended as I have alot of friends in both religions.

So I guess that makes me for the riddance of this ridicule attirage.

Kay

PS: I have a strong opinion because everytime I see a covered woman head to toe, my beliefs have been insulted.
 
ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 24):
my beliefs have been insulted.

what then are your beliefs ? just wondering !  Big grin big grin

[Edited 2006-03-07 19:08:01]
 
Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 24):
In 500 years, Islamic women will be what Christian women are today

A very bold statement, but I seriously doubt it. You must understand that many muslim women do not wear a hijab b/c they are forced to but b/c they want to. Hijab has come in fashion in the Islamic world in the past few years and girls wear it to look fashionable while covering up themselves.

Quoting Kay (Reply 24):
PS: I have a strong opinion because everytime I see a covered woman head to toe, my beliefs have been insulted.



Quoting Kay (Reply 24):
PS: I have a strong opinion because everytime I see a covered woman head to toe, my beliefs have been insulted.

I feel exactly opposite of what you think when I see a girl in a micro-mini skirt.
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SWISSER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:07 am

Amazing how well aware you guys are of our laws!
This law was mainly focused on events in the 80's when Belgium suffered from the KKK and the gang of Nivelle who attacked supermarkets and blew up banks!
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lh477
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 24):
PS: I have a strong opinion because everytime I see a covered woman head to toe, my beliefs have been insulted.

How so.


Frankly, I don't understand the reasons for Hijab/Niqab/Burqa's. I chalk it up to my own ignorance. If a women decides that she want's to cover herself up and follow whatever restrictive practices of her religion, it should be her right. It's hypocritical for the legistlator to talk about women's right, and not accept the fact that it's the women themselves who accept and choose the additional clothing (most of the time, based on my experience).
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ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 26):
Hijab has come in fashion in the Islamic world in the past few years and girls wear it to look fashionable

well, it depends. Some Hijabs look quite nice while others just look like dark shopping bags or potato bags

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 26):
when I see a girl in a micro-mini skirt.

so that you do NOT feel attracted ?
 
usnseallt82
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Dutch To Ban Public Use Of Burqas

Personally, I don't give two shits about whether or not they ban burqas. I think that they can do whatever they want for their own country. If the population doesn't like it, eventually the ban will be lifted once new officials are elected that represent the people. But if the citizenry agrees to it, then I'll be in full support as well.

Is it their right to ban the outfit? Hell yes. Is it a prudent choice in the times we live in? Probably not. I think this is the difference that people will argue till the cows come home.

More power to them, though. Let Iran or Syria publish a cartoon about the Dutch or ban the Dutch flag from being displayed. If Dutchmen around the world began to burn statues of Mohammad and the associated flags of those nations, then you would find a potluck of hypocrites in the middle east claiming injustice.

What a world we live in. Unbelievable.  no 
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Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:29 am



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...yaa%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D


I am in favour of the above too and they usually are in fashion.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
so that you do NOT feel attracted ?

Not at all. I follow the Islamic culture which means that I don't date or get involved in sexual relationships thus no feeling of attraction.
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AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):
I follow the Islamic culture which means that I don't date or get involved in sexual relationships thus no feeling of attraction.

Hmm, a few weeks ago, ME AVN FAN made the argument that this creates homo- and bi-sexual relationships at a higher number than in western cultures.
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Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
Hmm, a few weeks ago, ME AVN FAN made the argument that this creates homo- and bi-sexual relationships at a higher number than in western cultures.

 Silly You obviously have'nt read a lot of my previous posts on this topic.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 33):
You obviously have'nt read a lot of my previous posts on this topic.

I certainly have, I'm just making the point in case you'd like to dispute his findings.  Smile
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Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
I certainly have, I'm just making the point in case you'd like to dispute his findings.

I have never frakly looked into the matter.
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Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
I certainly have, I'm just making the point in case you'd like to dispute his findings.

I have never frankly looked into the matter.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
qr332
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Article]Geert Wilders, the populist member of parliament who first proposed the burqa ban, said : "The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights."[/quote]

What if the woman chose to wear a burqa? There are quite a few women who choose to do so because of their own extreme beliefs, shouldn't we allow them to do so as freedom of religion?

[quote=Pope
(Reply 3):
Where I see a disconnect in the Muslim religion is that they insist that Western women travelling in their countries honor their practices and traditions. However, they seem unwilling to respect the practices, traditional and laws of Western countries when they travel there.

Correction: One country does, Saudi Arabia. Even though all other Arab countries allow women to dress as they like, they are still conservative countries, and I have seen many examples of expats here in Qatar going out in string tops and mini-skirts, which is not respective of the culture here at all, yet nobody talks to them. While there are no bans, the least a person can do is respect the culture they are in, yet we have the problem of many Westerners not doing so. People are allowed to freely wear other religious symbols such as crosses and Sikh headdress in all Arab countries, even in school, I don't see anyone commenting on that. Hell, you can even buy christian crosses here in shops openly, and Qatar is an Islamic country in every aspect.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 5):
When in Rome do as the Romans Do, covering yourself from head to toe and walking on the streets of a western country contradicts that statement thoroughly.

And what you have just said contradicts Western beliefs. Whatever happened to "freedom of religion". To some people, this includes covering from head to toe, and this should be respected. It is amazing how the same people who defend the cartoons as freedom of speech do not defend banning niqabs as against freedom of religion. Go figure.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
There was a case in the State of Florida a couple of years ago where a woman who was a Muslim would not allow a picture for her driver's license without her face covering and therefore had to be denied it.

For your information, most Arab countries do not allow women to take pictures for their passport, driver's license, etc. with their face covered, because it completely defeats the purpose of having a picture.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
None of the items you listed prevent people from being identified in public.

And please tell me how it will help "security" if you can see a woman's face. It is up to her whether she wants to wear the niqab or not. BTW, niqab is Arabic for burqa.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
the text shows "and other Muslim face coverings", raising the question what a "face covering" is.

A face covering does not have to just be thin material over the face, there are many traditional ones here which are more like masks covering around the eyes but not the mouth.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
I know that here more conservative Muslims try to have their daughters excempted from such school activities if they are coeducational and IMO this hinders the girl's education.

Here in Qatar (under a British system), I studied the evolution theory (no bans on teaching it here), I took sex-ed (which is even in the Qatari national curriculum), and girls had swimming and PE lessons without problems, just separately from boys. If a girl does not attend things such as sports and swimming due to them being mixed, IMO it does not completely hinder the girl's education. It is up the parents.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
the will of their husbands, their fathers, their families.

Ever thought it might be their own will? I do not like burqas and think that they are way too much, but I still defend the right for a woman to wear one; I have seen several cases where a woman chooses to wear one because she believes that this is what is right.

Quoting Kay (Reply 24):
In 500 years, Islamic women will be what Christian women are today. No offense intended as I have alot of friends in both religions.

A lot of Muslim women are what "Christian" women are today. Most Arab countries (I say most because Saudi Arabia is not included) which have voting also have universal suffrage, there are women in government in the Middle East, either in parliament or as ministers, as is the case in Qatar, and women are working in most fields here. Women in Islam had rights at the time of the birth of Islam that Western women did not get until the 19th century.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 30):
What a world we live in. Unbelievable.

Yup, countries preach freedom of religion and tolerance, yet they ban it. Go figure.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):
Not at all. I follow the Islamic culture which means that I don't date or get involved in sexual relationships thus no feeling of attraction.

I'm Arab, Muslim, and I date - so do many of my friends. Dating might be taboo with a lot of people, but trust me, for almost all of the younger Arab generation it is something completely normal now. But, almost all girls hide it from their parents and quite a few guys with religious parents do as well. That is not to say that the girls' parents would chop their heads off if they found out, but it is very frowned upon for girls to date in Arab countries.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
Hmm, a few weeks ago, ME AVN FAN made the argument that this creates homo- and bi-sexual relationships at a higher number than in western cultures.

Which is 100% true. There is a lot of homosexual and bisexual activity in Arab countries which is sort of a "known secret". Everyone knows it yet they avoid the issue.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
RobertNL070
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:03 am

A little wave of my Dutch flag here.

First off, the thread title is a tad misleading: a decision to ban the wearing of burqas in public has yet to be taken.

Secondly, the very taking of this decision might be disrupted by the results of today’s local government elections. The polling stations have just closed. Polls suggest a swing to the left, with the Partij van de Arbeid (social democratic Labour Party) emerging as winner. At the moment the Labour Party is the largest opposition party in the Dutch Lower Chamber. Currently we ‘enjoy’ a three party centre-right coalition consisting of the CDA (Christian democrats), the VVD (right wing Liberals) and D’66 (liberal democrats). D’66 is very much the junior party in this coalition with only six seats in the 150-seat assembly.

Back to today’s local government elections: should D’66 be wiped off the board – which is very possible, they might consider pulling the rug out from under the government and force general elections claiming that they have absolutely no mandate to govern. The CDA and VVD might continue with a minority government soliciting support from the LPF (the late Pim Fortuyn’s lot) and consider hanging on until May 2007, but that is not a very stable basis from which to govern, and not very good for the country. General elections in the not too distant future make for a centre-left – my personal choice - or leftist coalition. Such a coalition will not countenance a ban on wearing burqas.

Personally, I believe in the right to religious freedom. I live nearby and work in a very multicultural area of The Hague – 95% of the people I deal with are Muslims. If these women wish to wear a burqa, then it is their good right. However, they do have responsibilities. Our verbal face-to-face communication is 70% non-verbal. In orthodox Islamic societies where women have slightly less to say in matters, that may not be such a problem. In Dutch society, women who are covered from head to toe in black with only a narrow opening for the eyes may encounter problems communicating with the non-Muslim Dutch, whether it be a (future) employer or the caucasian Dutch person behind the check-out in the supermarket. Since January 2004 we are also required to carry identification at all times. One is expected to be readily identifiable. Should you refuse to lift the veil to allow yourself to be identified, you could get into deep trouble with the Dutch authorities.

Just my €   

Regards, Robert   

edit: grammar

[Edited 2006-03-07 21:07:50]
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JAGflyer
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:05 am

Is a Burqas really "used" rather than worn?
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Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
And what you have just said contradicts Western beliefs. Whatever happened to "freedom of religion". To some people, this includes covering from head to toe, and this should be respected. It is amazing how the same people who defend the cartoons as freedom of speech do not defend banning niqabs as against freedom of religion. Go figure.

I agree but do you think the west is going to listen to our demands? Sucide bombers, 9/11, 7/7 will at once be brought into the light along with the usual Saudi excuse.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
I'm Arab, Muslim, and I date - so do many of my friends. Dating might be taboo with a lot of people, but trust me, for almost all of the younger Arab generation it is something completely normal now. But, almost all girls hide it from their parents and quite a few guys with religious parents do as well. That is not to say that the girls' parents would chop their heads off if they found out, but it is very frowned upon for girls to date in Arab countries.

You merely have a different outlook plus it is your personal decision, I was just answering ME AVN about the mini-skirts and why I don't feel attracted.
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AeroWesty
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 40):
demands

Probably because they're ARE demands. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
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scbriml
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):
Do I think women should have to wear burqas? No. Do I think they should have the right to do so? Yes.

I agree 100%. However, in a traditional Muslim society, the decision is likely to be taken by the woman's husband/father/brother.
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smokescreen
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:39 am

This proposed law is ridiculous. For any country that considers itself to be liberal and western to pass such a measure is offensive. People can wear whatever they want, for whatever reasons they want. The whole "identification" argument is total crap, does this mean I shouldn't be able to wear a hat and cover my face with a scarf in winter? Of course not. There is no justification for this except for bigotry. And I don't understand how anyone can pretend to be "offended" by the sight of a fully clothed person.
 
Emirates773ER
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
Probably because they're ARE demands

Yes they are b/c the people demanding are citizens of that country.
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usnseallt82
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
Yup, countries preach freedom of religion and tolerance, yet they ban it. Go figure.

Yeah..........a worldwide religion founded on the teachings of peace is used to attack the views of others who decide to draw silly cartoons. Go figure.
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comorin
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:59 am

I am TOTALLY against the wearing of Burqas in the Red Light District. This is really taking matters too far! It will be difficult to judge the girls in the windows, you might as well be blindfolded. Since the GDP of Holland is based on this, this law does makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, there are some privacy benefits that will be affected. With a Burqa, your neighbors won't be able to identify you in your new part-time job. You also don't have to keep two separate wardrobes - one for home and one for 'work', you know how women hate wearing those heels!

We can really learn from the pragmatic Dutch. Let's look at this issue calmly and not play the 'religion' card...
 
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n229nw
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 26):
Hijab has come in fashion in the Islamic world in the past few years and girls wear it to look fashionable while covering up themselves.

I always found it amusing when I was living in London in a neighborhood with many Muslims, how many young Muslim women wore black headscarves with very clear designer labels marked on them (Calvin Klein, etc.). The balance of being a trendy teen and being religious is culturally interesting...In a few cases (much more rarely), you even see a woman wearing hijab with a miniskirt and heels.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
People are allowed to freely wear other religious symbols such as crosses and Sikh headdress in all Arab countries, even in school,

I've never been to Qatar, so just curious: what are the rules about Jewish symbols (on tourists etc.)?

Quoting Comorin (Reply 46):
I am TOTALLY against the wearing of Burqas in the Red Light District. This is really taking matters too far! It will be difficult to judge the girls in the windows, you might as well be blindfolded. Since the GDP of Holland is based on this, this law does makes a lot of sense.

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767Lover
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:25 am

Legalized pot and prostitution does not a tolerant society make.
 
dl021
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 47):
Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
People are allowed to freely wear other religious symbols such as crosses and Sikh headdress in all Arab countries, even in school,

I've never been to Qatar, so just curious: what are the rules about Jewish symbols (on tourists etc.)?

Can I go to Messina or Mecca and wear a crucifix?
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ME AVN FAN
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Dutch Consider Banning Public Use Of Burqas

Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
A face covering does not have to just be thin material over the face, there are many traditional ones here which are more like masks covering around the eyes but not the mouth.

True, the question however is how the Dutch authorities will interpret it, and how it is supervised, and of what kind any possible prosecution may be

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37):
the will of their husbands, their fathers, their families.
- - - -
Ever thought it might be their own will?

-
YES. But, whenever many of course really do so on their own will, I in most cases think it is upbringing, family, father, husband or elder brother

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