tu204
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Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:56 pm

Well, now that we have a post about the best leader of Germany, the United States and !Burkina Faso! I thought it would be only fair to start this one especially because I would like to hear the opinions of our friends in the United States.

Eligible are all leaders of the Russian Empire, Soviet Union and the Russian Federation.

My personal favourite is Vladimir V. Putin (the current president). During his presidency the quality of life in Russia has greatly improved and he has restored the country's image on the international arena.
A close second would be Aleksander II.

The worst leaders (in my opinion) are Josef Stalin, Boris Yeltsin and Nikolai II (Nicholas II)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Tu204 (Thread starter):
Burkina Faso

The only reason I'm aware of that place is that it's mentioned in a classic Simpson's episode where Homer gets a huge phone bill...


Best Soviet Leader: Gotta be Gorby.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
rootsair
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:03 am

My favaourite of all time is Gorby by very very far. Its one of those leaders I appreciate! He was the one who finally admitted that although communism is a very good idea in theory it becomes utopic when applied in real.
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:06 am

Mikhail Gorbachev.
International Homo of Mystery
 
FDXmech
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:07 am

I'd say Gorby as well. One of my saddest moments was waking up on that August 1991 morning to hear of the coup. Conversely one of my brightest moments was hearing the coup failed.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Mikhail Gorbachev.

It is funny how Gorby is so beloved in the west while russians think of him as a traitor.

For me, the greatest leader Russia has had was Peter the Great. That is when the empire was made. Piotr piervoie was simply a visionary.

Although Ivan the Terrible was somewhat bloody, one may say that he gets kuddos for joing the Rus people into a nation. He is my second choice

As my third choice, I would say Alexander III - if he weren't assassinated and his changes had been put in place, there would be no russian revolution in 1917. Also a visionary mind.

Just my  twocents 

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 5):
It is funny how Gorby is so beloved in the west while russians think of him as a traitor.

I thought it was only the apparatchiks who held that opinion of him, and I can see how they would. How do the Russian capitalists running around Moscow in their new Mercedes and vacationing in Rio view him?
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levg79
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting TriStarEnvy (Reply 1):
Best Soviet Leader: Gotta be Gorby.



Quoting RootsAir (Reply 2):
My favaourite of all time is Gorby by very very far. Its one of those leaders I appreciate! He was the one who finally admitted that although communism is a very good idea in theory it becomes utopic when applied in real.



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Mikhail Gorbachev.



Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 4):
I'd say Gorby as well.

I concur with the majority. As RootsAir said, Gorbachev was man enough to admit that Soviet experiment wasn't working and renouncing the Soviet occupation of the Baltics in 1940, giving those countries independence from Russia.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
gkirk
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:27 am

Personally I think Putin is doing a good job at the moment.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
How do the Russian capitalists running around Moscow in their new Mercedes and vacationing in Rio view him?

They probably like him. However, there were Russian communists running around in Moscow with flashy Limos (Zil, etc.) and buying at GUM stores and vacationing all over the world. They just traded places.

The general view was very well summed up by my Russian class' teacher. She said that before there was nothing to buy but people had money. Today, you can buy anything you want - but no one has the money for it.

As a comparison, a Physician in Russia earns ca. 150-200 € a month...

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:28 am

Czaress Katharina II and President Yeltzin .
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:45 am

I have some admiration for Nikita Khruschev. He had has moments of bravado and poor manners, but in the end he was human and thought things out - which was a large improvement over his predecessor to say the least. Thank goodness he came to power instead of the mad rapist Beria.

He had the guts to tell his own party that Stalin was no communist, but a murderous personality cult. This partly triggered the split with the Chinese, but also opened the USSR to some extent, and gave the Chinese incentive to establish formal relations with the USA.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:47 am

Has to be Peter the Great. Marched Russia into the civilized world.

Worst: Lenin and everyone after until Gorbachev(not included) - marched Russia back from the civilized world.

Putin is relatively OK - simply taking Russia back to the totalitarian system, but , hey, Russians simply don't know better (and obviously don't want to).
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
macc
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:51 am

where was dschingis khan from?

ah, mongolia..
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 9):
Today, you can buy anything you want - but no one has the money for it.

As a comparison, a Physician in Russia earns ca. 150-200 € a month

And that same physician has the freedom to buy what he/she wants when they earn the funds from their own labor.
International Homo of Mystery
 
levg79
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
And that same physician has the freedom to buy what he/she wants when they earn the funds from their own labor.

What own labor? If there's something you don't know, please don't say it. It's not uncommon for Russian physicians today to have a second job to support their families. Those jobs usually being security guard at night or something like that. They are not upper class people who can buy anything they want. Most of them still don't own cars.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:26 am

Nikita Chrustjev best Soviet leader, Jeltsin best Russian leader.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
tu204
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:35 am

Well, I expected everyone to say Gorby Big grin The attitude towards him here is negative, but he did the best he could. The mess that his idiot predecessors created (except Andropov - that guy was great) was too big for him to clean up. It really is a pity that he took the blame for everything. In reality, Brezhnev's 20 year rule was to blame. Had Gorby been elected instead of Yeltsin maybe things would have been different.

Peter the Great was a great reformer, but you cannot forget that millions died during his reforms.

As for Khruchev - I like that guy  Smile He is the guy next door, the "average Joe"; yes, he really liked to interrupt people and had next to no manners, but you just gotta love him. Granted, his agricultural reforms failed miserably (well, thats what happens when you try to replace all wheat with corn in one year and in a nothern climate) but he did manage to solve the housing problems...sort of. Thanks to him the space program "took off"  Wink

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
Putin is relatively OK - simply taking Russia back to the totalitarian system, but , hey, Russians simply don't know better (and obviously don't want to).

Ok, nice comment. How about you take a country with over 80 ethnic groups (which, I might add are not immigrants, they are native to the country - this plays a big part) half of which are intent on killing the other half and make this country prosper without having some degree of totalitariasm. Good luck. We already tried "democracy" in the 90's and look what that brought. Putin is not a dictator either. By the way, why do many of those emigrees that left for Isreal in the 90's choose to return to Russia now? You, Condolezza Rice and Sorros can say whatever you want about Putin, but the only voice that matters is that of the people and they ARE happy - it is not propaganda.
Sorry
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:41 am

Well, how about Chernenko?

Only running the show for about 13 months?
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:44 am

I think Lenin was OK. Not good but not bad either. Stalin was HORRIBLE. I don't like Gorby that much or Khruschev either. They were both pretty average. I guess none of the Soviet leaders were exceptional. However I think that Putin is pretty good.

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 9):
The general view was very well summed up by my Russian class' teacher. She said that before there was nothing to buy but people had money. Today, you can buy anything you want - but no one has the money for it.

Amen

signed,
all my grandparents and relatives still living in Bulgaria.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:14 am

President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin!!! No doubt. Russia has improved drastically under his presidency, and we are all proud to have him as President!

Aeroflot777
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 15):
What own labor? If there's something you don't know, please don't say it.

By "from their own labor" meant that they were free to take up capitalistic enterprise and earn whatever they wanted in order to buy whatever they wanted. It's a concept I'm quite familiar with.
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levg79
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 19):
I think Lenin was OK

Lenin? That's the guy who introduced Communism in Russia and created the Soviet Union. What positive can you say about him? I might sound very closed minded and our fellow Russian a.netters would probably dislike me, but it was Lenin initially who caused my country to be occupied for over 50 years. If it wasn't for Lenin and his Soviet ideologies, I would've had a whole different life right now.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
tu204
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 22):
If it wasn't for Lenin and his Soviet ideologies, I would've had a whole different life right now.

Yes, we would all be living in the "Thousand-year Reich"
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:29 am

It is hard to talk about about "the best Russian leader". All way from Peter the Great up to Putin they have followed a wrong goal and had no clue what proper governance really is.

They have all worked for treating this large country as one unity. In the beginning the effects were minor, but with the invention of telegraph and railways Moscow got the tools to impose its centralized power and disaster really struck.

Just imagine if the USA had not been divided into fifty mostly self governing states - she would have suffered the same mess.

Same in Germany. Bismark got the telegraphs, railways and waterways to extend his administrative and military power all over Das Reich. And for a hundred years disaster went from bad to worse until 1945 when we divided Germany into now 16 Länder (states) with the USA as a model.

If we shall talk about a Russian leader, who may have been aware of her problems, then Eduard Schevardnadze comes to my mind. He was "only" secretary of state, not president. But I think that he could have mastered a plan to make Russia controllable. To stretch democracy on a local level. But he had nobody to back him up. He was just some sort of "misfit" in the administration.

Putin is fairly popular in Russia. He came to power at a time when things couldn't get worse. Things could only move forward. He takes the applaus for the unavoidable progress.

Internationally he is indicating the same 200 years old Russian "inferiority complex". He seems unable to get used to Russia's lost status as "superpower", as if superpower status was something worth struggling for. Half of him still sees "the west" and things like NATO as some "illness" which could catch.

Instead any Russian leader should see it the way it is: The west produced NATO because they were ready to die for not becoming communists. Russia tried it, didn't want communism either. Now we are in the same boat and should go full speed forward together.

There is of course the difference that "the west" has built up an enormous wealth, quality of life and choices for all individuals during the years of Russian communism. It will take time to catch up. But look at the most successful east European countries and see how fast they have become among the most modern countries in the world. It is only a question about "getting organized".

And it starts with "decentralization", a word which I am afraid does not exist in the Russian language. Peter the Great didn't know that word, neither does Putin.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
bushpilot
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 11):
I have some admiration for Nikita Khruschev. He had has moments of bravado and poor manners, but in the end he was human and thought things out -

In terms of which one has done the best job in terms of getting things done, I dont know that. I do like Khruschev because he had balls. He made Nixon look bad while he was VP and showing off the kitchen of the future, he ruffled feathers at the UN I believe it was when he pounded his shoe on the podium. He is the kind of guy Id love to have a drink with and listen to.
 
tu204
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 24):
Instead any Russian leader should see it the way it is: The west produced NATO because they were ready to die for not becoming communists. Russia tried it, didn't want communism either. Now we are in the same boat and should go full speed forward together.

Ok, then why are bordering countries joining NATO and why are NATO's aircraft patrolling their borders with Russia? If you no longer percieve us as your enemy than why is this happening?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
sovietjet
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:24 am

I think communism wasn't bad and everyone from my family agrees. Sure there were faults just like any government but everyone I know that is Russian liked it better back then. Plus it sure helped technological development.
 
vc10
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:03 am

I have only been to Russia once and I believe it was in 1996 just after Gorbachev had left government, but I do remember it was at May day celebrations and the temperature was just below freezing for most of the days. What upset me was to see people who had been promised by their government to be looked after from the cradle to the grave having to now resort to begging in the streets. I always thought that Gorbachev recognised that thngs had to change but for the good of the ordinary people the change would have to come gradually. However other influences were brought to bear which required the change to happen more quickly which appears to have benifitted the crooks more than the ordinary people.
One visit and I might have got things all wrong but the image of those people begging in the cold weather has stuck with me since and I hope things have changed for the better
little vc10
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 11):
I have some admiration for Nikita Khruschev. He had has moments of bravado and poor manners, but in the end he was human and thought things out -

Have to agree with that. Under Krushchev, the USSR made great leaps in science and technology. The soviet people were also relieved from the excesses of the Stalin era.

Hs predecessor, Stalin, was , by all accounts, a mad b**ard. Krushchev's successor, Brezhnev, while not being as bad as Stalin, was somewhat of a hawk who was responsible for much increased tension with the west. Brezhnev was succeeded by another madman, Yuri Andropov, who didn't last very long , much to the relief of the world.

I don't think Gorby deserves much credit other than for realizing that the Soviet system was basically bankrupt and needed reform. He had no choice but to dismantle the broke behemoth that the USSR had become.

Presently, I think Putin is doing (or at least trying very hard to) a decent job.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
half of which are intent on killing the other half

Well ,maybe , they should not comprise one single country then.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
By the way, why do many of those emigrees that left for Israel in the 90's choose to return to Russia now?

You call less than 1% many? Hey, it's emigration - some just can't adopt.
And why do many of those who come here have next to nothing to do with Judaism or Israel, and just want to flee from your wonderful regime?
Oh, and what does it have to do with the subject?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
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n229nw
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:14 am

Gorbachev I really do admire a lot. It takes a great person to swallow pride and take apart his own power, and even country...when that this the right direction to go. Yes, things got out of his control, but he was up against some pretty powerful forces.

Putin's repression of a free press and other totalitarian gestures coupled to his inability to find a better tactic in the Caucasus would keep him off my list.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
You, Condolezza Rice and Sorros can say whatever you want about Putin, but the only voice that matters is that of the people and they ARE happy - it is not propaganda.
Sorry

The fact that people like him is not exclusive of propaganda by the way. It can also be the result of propaganda. Hitler was a very popular leader. (And no I am not comparing Putin to Hitler, but it shows an extreme case...)

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 27):
I think communism wasn't bad and everyone from my family agrees.... Plus it sure helped technological development.


Also created the worst permanent enviornmental damage in the history of the world, btw. There are whole cities and regions of Russia that are basically toxic waste dumps now.

[Edited 2006-03-09 17:19:51]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
lh477
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:31 am

It's got to be Gorby. I wish Gorby had been born earlier, he might have been able to reform the Soviet Union before it was too late. Many seem to have collective memories. People tend to forget what gave birth to Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Nicholas II's and Czar's previous to him had created policies where the very few continued to be rich, while the majority of Russian's were dirt poor. The Wars with Japan and Germany were bore a herrendous price on the russian population. Russia was prime for a revolution. Bolsheviks were in the right place at the right time. Lenin and Stalin were also responsible for creating a modern and technological state.

But overall history has judged both Lenin and Stalin correctly, they were both murderous thugs especially Stalin, who deserves to be considered one of the most vile humans who ever lived.

It's ironic that the soviet replaced rich bourgeois with party bourgeois. I am sure if Marx had an opportunity to examine the Soviet Union, he woudn't consider it his sort of Communism.

It's tragedy that the new capitalist Russia has no room for so many Russians.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
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yowza
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:36 am

Gotta be Alexei Kovalev, seen here wearing the C



YOWza
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 26):
Ok, then why are bordering countries joining NATO

During those fifteen years, since NATO no longer has an opponent, NATO has transformed into the world's defacto major peace keeping forum. All peace loving countries, which obey to the statutes, can join if they want to do so. It's their own choice.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 26):
and why are NATO's aircraft patrolling their borders with Russia?

All countries patrol their borders - smuggling, drug trafficking, car thieves, sex slave trafficking and a lot of other issues. Russia of course also take care of her borders.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 26):
If you no longer perceive us as your enemy than why is this happening?

We perceived Russia as a threat rather than an enemy. A very valid threat considering that a lot of countries were held occupied in poverty and without freedom to organize the lifestyle they wanted.

NATO has always been a club where the work has been shared. Border patrol hardware was naturally not highest priority on the purchase list when the poor central European countries became independent. Especially not since they became member of a club with more than plenty of good old hardware. So while they build up their industries and become rich, then old NATO AWACS planes watch their borders. That's a natural work-share in the club.

Dear Tu204, it seems to me as if you are part of that hundreds of years old Russian inferiority complex. In your imagination you think that everything happening around you are acts against you. We have to get over it. The Cold War is long time over. The good guys won, the bad guys lost, it's a win-win situation for everybody. But we all have to pick the apples ourselves.

Join the club! Why not?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
tu204
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:21 am

Ok Prebennorholm, how do you think the United States would react if we would station a couple squadrons of MiG-29's or Su-27's in Cuba or in Mexico near the U.S. border to patrol it? Every country has a right to a secure border right? And if they are too poor to do it themselves, someone should do it for them, right? So the U.S. shouldn't object to us "securing" Cuba's borders? As you can guess, the U.S. would be outraged and pissed, and rightfully so. It does not matter how you put it - it is PROVOCATION. It is a political move - it has nothing at all to do with border security (as Major Troyanov demonstrated) And they know it too. Provocations and double standards are pretty popular now, don't you agree? And no, I am not saying that only "the west" has double standards - we have them too, I admit that.
Yes, every country has a right to patrol their borders and keep them secure, but when you patrol somebody else's border (especially when that somebody else is very far from you), it is a different matter and people start thinking things.
And for the record - it seems that many countries still perceive Russia as a threat.
As for your invitation to join the club - sure, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the club?  Wink Oh yeah, I forgot that the new objective of this club is to "fight terrorism"...on the Russian/Latvian border...yeah, lots of terrorists crossing that one  Yeah sure


LY7E7, I did not use the correct words - I meant to say that many more are LEAVING Israel to Russia than the other way around. I guess they are fleeing from your wonderful regime  Wink
Now lets get back on topic.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
ly7e7
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 35):
I meant to say that many more are LEAVING Israel to Russia than the other way around

This is simply not true. Provide data before posting crap.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 35):
...So the U.S. shouldn't object to us "securing" Cuba's borders? As you can guess, the U.S. would be outraged and pissed, and rightfully so. It does not matter how you put it - it is PROVOCATION. It is a political move....

Dear Tu204, it seems to me that you still grab to the old "them and us" way of thinking. And "equal rights for them and us".

A free and open democratic regime has every right to defend its freedom and has every right by any means to monitor what is going on in the world, and what might threaten its security.

An unpredictable dictatorship does not enjoy such rights. That's the difference. It enjoys the right to be "confined" until it is transformed into an ordinary democratic regime.

No equal rights there!

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 35):
...it seems that many countries still perceive Russia as a threat.

Which countries? I think that you are seeing things.

That said, there are countries which are not always totally happy with some details of present day Russian foreign politics. And Russia hasn't treated for instance neighbor Ukraine very friendly during the immediate past.

Anger from fifty years of occupation doesn't disappear overnight. In central Europe and the Baltic countries I have heard words about Russia which cannot be printed in this forum. It takes time.

But that's not the same as perceiving a threat.

The friendlier and more helpful Russia is to its neighbors, the faster it goes.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 35):
Oh yeah, I forgot that the new objective of this club is to "fight terrorism"...on the Russian/Latvian border...yeah, lots of terrorists crossing that one...

Huh, it depends. It depends upon whether you define for instance sex slave traffickers as terrorists. That might be a valid definition, but I prefer the more precise term "sex slave trafficker". Another often used, but less pricise naming is "Russian Mafia".

A lot of Russian (and Ukrainian) young girls are smuggled out with promises of good jobs and income 20 times what they could make at home. And end up as sex slaves all over the EU.

A not insignificant part of my tax money is spent on searching for these girls, releasing and returning them. And on knocking down on the traffickers.

Not too far away from my computer keyboard - downtown Copenhagen - is a rather new "nursing home" which provides safe shelter and often very much needed mental and medical treatment of those girls in preparation of being sent home.

It is my right to do whatever I can to reduce that. For two reasons:
- for the comfort of Russian and Ukrainian girls
- for reducing my tax burden.

The Russian/Latvian border is on a regular basis patrolled by Danish F-16 fighters with sophisticated infrared scanners. At other times it is Norwegian, or Dutch F-16s, or British Tornados, rotating every six months. But yes, that border is constantly patrolled. And relevant data are immediately forwarded to the Latvian authoriries. Latvia does not have an air force with the capabilities needed. On the other hand we have much too many F-16s and have mothballed one third of them.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:07 am

Hard to say who was the best as I wouldn't be familar with any before Brezhnev, but I would imagine Gorbachev to be the most courageous. There aren't many leaders (F W deKlerk is the only other one I can think of) who take an active part in dismantling their own regime.

He has to be one of the all-time great leaders. I think I remember Time magazine nominating him as their "Man of the 1990s".
 
andessmf
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 17):
How about you take a country with over 80 ethnic groups (which, I might add are not immigrants, they are native to the country - this plays a big part) half of which are intent on killing the other half and make this country prosper without having some degree of totalitariasm

Thank you for a different perspective, very enlightening.

Krushchev I vote for the best modern president, Putin I have to rethink in light of what I hear from Russians in a.net.

Previous to 1917, I think they were a lot, Peter the Great included. And he wasnt the only king back then that killed millions.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 11):
I have some admiration for Nikita Khruschev.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
Nikita Chrustjev best Soviet leader

Admiration for a drunk thug, who first killed god knows how many East Germans in 1953, Hungarians in 1956 and then nearly started WW3 in 1962 in Cuba?
His (in)famous incident with banging his shoe at the UN speaks thousand words about what a primitive he was.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
Worst: Lenin and everyone after until Gorbachev(not included) - marched Russia back from the civilized world.

 checkmark 

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 22):
Lenin? That's the guy who introduced Communism in Russia and created the Soviet Union. What positive can you say about him?

He is dead.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 35):
Yes, every country has a right to patrol their borders and keep them secure, but when you patrol somebody else's border (especially when that somebody else is very far from you), it is a different matter and people start thinking things.

It's the principle of collective defense, regardless what Putin's propaganda feeds you.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 35):
And for the record - it seems that many countries still perceive Russia as a threat.

You bet they do. Please don't tell me you are surprised.
 
kolobokman
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:02 am

Gorbachev is the worst. The result of his actions was terrifying!
VVP is on the top there - only because he is the one who is fixing Gorbys mess straight.
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
tu204
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:13 am

I was expecting Turbolet to turn up sometime  Smile but I was expecting more...critical things to come from you  Wink The only thing I can tell you it that it has nothing to do with propaganda. It has to do with quality of life. Now, don't try to tell me that the improvement quality of life is also propaganda  Wink Besides, I just love it how people that have not been to Russia and have not lived here come to such interesting conclusions (such as you).

Prebennorholm, arguing with you is like arguing with a tree - long and pointless, no matter what I say and what I prove, you will still have your twisted version of reality so I am going to be the bigger man and walk away, I have much better things to do with my time. It wouldn't hurt to get back on topic. If you want to argue on how Russia is a bad country and how we are wrong, please, start another thread.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the topic:
AndesSMF, to elaborate a bit on what I said - when you have an "immigrant country" like the United States or Canada, the immigrants usually assimilate into the way of life in that country and you will have a multicultural society that is living together, as one group. In Russia, you have different areas that are populated by a distinct majority of a certain nationality, several less dominant nationalities and Russians, so you have a multicultural society, but it is not assimilated into one big group, but rather multiple groups. The Caucus is a very good example of this - in one small area (less than 5% of the whole Russian Federation you have more than 20 separate groups of peoples, and they are not all that friendly with each other. (The Ossetians hate the Ingushetians, the Ingushetians do not like the Chechens, the Daghestanis like the Ingueshians, which makes them look pretty bad in the eyes of the Ossetians and so on.) My my upstairs neighbours are Chechen (great people - very nice, welcoming) Well they told me that this is how the "family" works: their family is from the plains (the structure is a little different from those in the mountains) and they live together in one village as one big extended family; women are wed to a man from a different family (for obvious reasons) but they must be wed a Chechen man, there is absolutely no tolerance for inter-racial couples. They would be outcasts - no exceptions.
You also have to keep in mind that in the Caucus "revenge" is a popular thing; if you do something to offend someone, it will not be forgotten; this is the way to solve a serious conflict between families - lets say I kill someone from your family (for any reason) - there will be a family feud that can last more than a century, the only thing that can be done to stop it is if I go to your family and apologize for my actions (with an offering, not empty handed), if the apology is accepted, the feud is over and I go back to my family, if it is not, well, best case scenario is that I am killed on the spot and the feud continues with these tit-for-tat killings and kidnappings. Solving this via the justice system is impossible - nobody saw anything - it is now a matter of family pride  Yeah sure
You can clearly see the problem when you have this sort of thing happen, since the nationalities are against each other, the only real way the country can work is if it is a federation (where subjects of the federation are based on the nationalities); but you are still left with how to run the republic - you have families, whoever wins the republican election will obviously be friendlier with his own family and with the other families that are friends with his family, which will only (further) anger the families that are left out.
The only real way of solving this problem is to appoint a neutral person.
Now, I apologize if I made them sound like uncivilised and unfriendly people - this has been their way of life for thousands of years and they are very friendly indeed; I (a Russian) have been to the Caucus and people that I have not met before were very nice to me, welcoming me into their homes, making me feel welcome) and I would say that there is not a place in the world that is more welcoming to strangers than the Caucus. (One of the families that I stayed with told me a story of how their grandfather would not have dinner alone, he would sit by the road on a bench and invite anybody passing by to join him for dinner, to be his guest - I found this to be simply incredible)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:29 pm

Quoting Kolobokman (Reply 42):
Gorbachev is the worst. The result of his actions was terrifying!

It's interesting that even 21-25 year olds complain about Grobachev. I can understand that the collapse of the USSR was traumatising from the Russian perspective, but do you really think it's his "fault"?
Wasn't just the whole Evil Empire falling apart being desperately corrupt, rotten and ineffective and Gorbachev just was smart enough not to resist the process which was going to happen sooner or later?


________________________________________________________________

 
levg79
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 43):
I just love it how people that have not been to Russia and have not lived here come to such interesting conclusions (such as you).

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I happen to agree with L410Turbolet. When you're fed the propaganda that's being fed to you by the Soviet/Russian government, your perspective on things is rather limited. Try looking at things from a broader perspective.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 43):
when you have an "immigrant country" like the United States or Canada, the immigrants usually assimilate into the way of life in that country and you will have a multicultural society that is living together, as one group.

I went through immigration and live in the United States. Whatever you said is NOT true. It takes more than one generation to assimilate and you do NOT have a multicultural society that's living together. I live in New York and can give you an example. We have areas where Korean immigrants live, separate areas where Greeks live, another area for Chinese, yet another where many immigrants from the former Soviet Union live, and so on. Although there are no rules or anything about that, different immigrant groups, for the most part, live among their own. This is just how things tend to work.

Assimilating different cultural groups to have a "multicultural society" as you referred to it, would be just what Soviet Union tried to do. I can't speak for every part of the Soviet Union, but I know that in my home city of Riga about half the residents were arrested (just because for no real reason) and exiled to Siberia, while native Russians from Russia were brought in to live in Riga. That didn't work forcefully, only created problems which still haunt the minority of native Russians living in Latvia these days.

My point is that any Soviet leader who believed in the ideas of Russification does not deserve a title of best leader. If I had to choose, and I did in reply 7, Gorbachev would be my choice because he understood that forcing people to be Russian (or Soviet) does not work and he did the best thing he could ever do in his life, abolish the Soviet system.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
aer lingus
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:52 pm

Personally I like Boris Yeltsin.

Split Scimitar or Sharklets?
 
TransIsland
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Tu204 (Thread starter):
Vladimir V. Putin (the current president). During his presidency ... he has restored the country's image on the international arena.

Funny, I was under the impression he was ruining Russia's international reputation once more.

Gorbachev? Peter the Great?
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 26):
Ok, then why are bordering countries joining NATO and why are NATO's aircraft patrolling their borders with Russia? If you no longer percieve us as your enemy than why is this happening?

Because these countries rightfully see you as a threat...history has taught them so. 45 years of brutal forced Soviet domination on the Warsaw Pact...this is NOT easily forgotten. Russia doesn't play well with its neighbors, and these countries know this. The whole reason for joining NATO was so that WHEN Russia decides to start flexing its muscle and terrorizing its neighbors like Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, etc, they'll have powerful friends, as well as their own stronger NATO compatible militaries to tell it to "Step off!". Incidents like that Su-27 that ended up over (and eventually crashed in) Lithuania aren't helping matters either.

When Russia finally admits that the Katyn massacre was a gross act of genocide perpetrated by a regime no better than Hitler's, then relations will normalize. Until then, Russia chooses to live in the dark in a sad attempt to "get away with it"...so they should expect mistrust and hostility from the former Warsaw Pact.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 22):
Lenin? That's the guy who introduced Communism in Russia and created the Soviet Union. What positive can you say about him?

I have one, in 1919 when he decided to ruffle feathers with Poland, he got a Chuck Norris style "Roundhouse kick to the face" on the River Vistula...from a country that had barely regained its independence and whose military was basically a bunch of Marlboro Men with guns.

BTW, my vote goes to Gorbachev.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

[Edited 2006-03-13 23:07:49]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Best Russian/Soviet Leader Of All Time

Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 48):
When Russia finally admits that the Katyn massacre was a gross act of genocide perpetrated by a regime no better than Hitler's, then relations will normalize.

Won't happen my friend. Didn't the Russian Military Prosecutor's Office just deny (just few hours before the anniversary of that massacre) the request for rehabiliatation of those Polish officers murdered in Katyn?

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