runway23
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More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:33 am

So it appears students are rioting outside the sorbonne against the french state.

Setting up a camp fire and having the CRS (swat team) throw tear gas at them.

From what I heard some people may have been hurt.
 
bushpilot
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:38 am

Any reasoning specifically for this? Is this group of students wanting thier cartoons back?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:38 am

Checked it on TF1 WEBsite. Looks like a conflict between students all over France on one side and the government on the other side. "Riots" is a strong term in a way, as it is, at least at present, just a matter of "higher education institutes" in France. Looks as if the government wants to tighten the regulations in various respects.
 
bushpilot
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 2):
"Riots" is a strong term in a way

Probably right, setting up bon fires and having the SWAT team gas me is a typical tuesday morning.  yes 
 
HatTrick
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 1):
Any reasoning specifically for this? Is this group of students wanting thier cartoons back?

Something about a picture of the Prophet Mohammad eating a pulled pork sandwich.
 
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yowza
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:02 am

Guess it's true what the Lebanese say, Paris is the Beirut of Europe  Wink

YOWza
 
Gilligan
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting HatTrick (Reply 4):
a pulled pork sandwich.

Remind me not to stand too close to you anymore.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:30 pm

It wouldn't be France if the students weren't rioting.

 Wink
What's fair is fair.
 
BA
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
Guess it's true what the Lebanese say, Paris is the Beirut of Europe

"They say Beirut is the Paris of the Middle East. Does that mean Paris is the Beirut of Europe? Or is that an insult to Beirut?" - Michael J. Totten
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Thorben
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:32 pm

The students are protesting against new legislation that makes it easier to fire young people. (To our American friends: In Europe we have laws against firing people  Wink ). The legislation is supposed to reduce youth unemployment, which is very high in France. But the French always protest against anything seen as a social cut, that way they will fail in the globalisation.

Besides, I don't know if the CRS can really be compared to SWAT. The CRS seems to be more a riot police and also does patrols in cities. But maybe somebody from France can explain it better.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
MYT332
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:43 pm

What has Teahan been upto?!

Edit:

Watching the people get lairy
Is not very pretty I tell thee
Walking through town is quite scary
And not very sensible

La-ah-ah, la la lalala la
Ah-ah-ah, la la lalala la

I predict a riot, I predict a riot
I predict a riot, I predict a riot

And if there's anybody left in here
That doesn't want to be out there

I predict a riot, I predict a riot
I predict a riot, I predict a riot

[Edited 2006-03-11 10:45:46]
One Life, Live it.
 
cfalk
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
The students are protesting against new legislation that makes it easier to fire young people. (To our American friends: In Europe we have laws against firing people ).
That's why Europe has such high unemployment. Employers will resist hiring people if they they are not sure they will need them permenantly. They calculate that it is better to do without.

Legislation making it expensive to fire people has been pushed by the powerful French trade unions as part of their strategy to ensure high unemployment and thus fear in the workforce, and thus high membership in unions, all while making it look to the typical airhead that the union is "looking after the workers".

[Edited 2006-03-11 11:01:35]
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BNE
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:49 pm

Did you cause this; as you happen to be in Paris at the moment.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
Thorben
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):

I don't think it is that simple. I read research where some people made econometric analyses of factors contributing to unemployment. They found that strict employment laws are not a cause. You also have to keep in mind that there were times when the US has high unemployment and Europe low unemployment, despite those laws.

Unemployment over here has a lot of other things contributing to it. Lack of education and skills, high taxes and high non-wage labour costs, too much welfare, buerocracy etc.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
pelican
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
The students are protesting against new legislation that makes it easier to fire young people. (To our American friends: In Europe we have laws against firing people Wink ).

Well, to be correct - in many European countries we have laws against firing people.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
That's why Europe has such high unemployment. Employers will resist hiring people if they they are not sure they will need them permenantly. They calculate that it is better to do without.

That - to put it mildly - is wrong . While the neo-classical approach to labour market theory may suggest this, there is no empirical evidence.

pelican
 
sebolino
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
The students are protesting against new legislation that makes it easier to fire young people

Not exactly.
The gvt invented a new type of contract for young people, who will be in try-out period during 2 years. During this time they can be fired without motivation.
For the usual contracts, the try-ouy period is 3 or 6 months. After that, an employer is allowed to fire an employee for a good reason: lack of work to do, (real) financial problems, severe fault from the employee, and it's usually with an indemnity.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
a typical tuesday morning

not exactly. But at least up to now it has been restricted to the universities

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
Guess it's true what the Lebanese say, Paris is the Beirut of Europe

been in Beirut lately ? it is a tremendous city again, in many ways better than before 1975

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
It wouldn't be France if the students weren't rioting.

I quite well remember US-American students rioting during the War in Vietnam. True, since then, the USA in politics apparently has moved somewhat to the right, so that Richard Milhous Nixon might be regarded as an American Socialist

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 15):
The gvt invented a new type of contract for young people, who will be in try-out period during 2 years. During this time they can be fired without motivation.
For the usual contracts, the try-ouy period is 3 or 6 months. After that, an employer is allowed to fire an employee for a good reason: lack of work to do, (real) financial problems, severe fault from the employee, and it's usually with an indemnity.

what exactly is the reason that it looks as if being primarily an object of opposition for the students, rather than the trades-unions ?
 
Thorben
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 14):
That - to put it mildly - is wrong . While the neo-classical approach to labour market theory may suggest this, there is no empirical evidence.

Neo-classic is a theory with useless mathematic complications that does work in a fictional world, but not in the real world.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
pelican
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 17):

Neo-classic is a theory with useless mathematic complications that does work in a fictional world, but not in the real world.

I wouldn't be that harsh...  Wink

pelican
 
cosec59
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:57 am

It's about new employment laws that will make it easier to sack younger employees

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4795648.stm
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jafa39
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Runway23 (Thread starter):
So it appears students are rioting outside the sorbonne against the french state

If they don't like the French State they should leave it, French citizens or not!

Wassup? they banned charity shop clothes, gauloise and a smug expression on campus?
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 20):
they don't like the French State they should leave it

A) who says they dislike France ? they fight against what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as a deterioration
B) is everybody in NewZealand forced by law to "like" the NZ state ? or leave if not ?
C) is NewZealand offering political asylum to "dissident" French students ? and maybe places at NZ universities ? (combined with a state stipendium of course, and free lodging)
-
 scratchchin   duck   scratchchin   duck   scratchchin 
 
dl021
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting HatTrick (Reply 4):
Something about a picture of the Prophet Mohammad eating a pulled pork sandwich.

Is pulled pork halal? I'd have thought chopped pork instead, but what do I know?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
It wouldn't be France if the students weren't rioting.

Wow, I love it when stereotypes prove right. Or not.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 19):
It's about new employment laws that will make it easier to sack younger employees

Yeah, so they might have to show up and actually work or take a chance on being fired! That's terrible, they should riot for their right to get paid for halfassing it through life.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
they might have to show up and actually work or take a chance on being fired! That's terrible, they should riot for their right to get paid for halfassing it through life.

so, you mean that former students in France tend NOT to show up at workplaces and NOT to work and to "halfass" through life ? well, I am of course well aware of the deep love between US-Americans and French !

[Edited 2006-03-11 23:49:27]
 
dl021
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
so, you mean that former students in France tend NOT to show up at workplaces and NOT to work and to "halfass" through life ? well, I am of course well aware of the deep love between US-Americans and French !

To be fair I was speaking as one who was raised part time in France and has friends and family who currently live there, where I visit a few times per year.

There is an unfortunately large subculture in France where students and young people in general tend to feel obligated to make demands of society, and they express their displeasure with any demands placed on them by rioting or striking. Engage in a conversation with the average French student and find out for yourself whether they expect to be taken care of or they expect to take care of themselves.

I love France. I'll be back there later this year, and will probably buy a house there in the next couple of years. I will also speak the truth. They have 10% unemployment not because the average person is incapable of working, or that there aren't jobs, but because it's too easy to stay unemployed. The benefits earned by unemployment are too good. There are too many 'black money' jobs available where a person pays no taxes (if you counted the jobs people have that dodge taxes unemployment would be several points lower).

This culture is indemic in secondary and post secondary students who expect to be taken care of and don't like discipline or additional demands placed on them. The mere fact that they are burning stuff and inviting the Police Nationale to launch CS and pepper gas their way is simply more evidence of this. They have bad habits and no one wants to correct them.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jafa39
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
A) who says they dislike France ?

They do

Quoting Runway23 (Thread starter):
rioting outside the sorbonne against the french state.

Against tends to mean a form of dislike is inherent in the arguement that they are supporting by the riot.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
is everybody in NewZealand forced by law to "like" the NZ state ? or leave if not ?

Certainly in the South Island, the phrase FIFO (Fit In or Fuck Off) is often mentioned (to poms like me!!  Smile) if people who didn't like NZ started rioting, the non-NZers would face deportation, the NZers would get chucked in jail if they started to burn and break things.

The original post didn't specify if these were native French Students, immigrants or what but as has been previously noted, French Students do seem to have an attitude problem, rioting only proves their detractors right.

I appreciate you may have a soft spot for France but don't get precious about it, their actions stink and Paris has had enough rioting for now.
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:14 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
There is an unfortunately large subculture in France where students and young people in general tend to feel obligated to make demands of society, and they express their displeasure with any demands placed on them by rioting or striking. Engage in a conversation with the average French student and find out for yourself whether they expect to be taken care of or they expect to take care of themselves.

ok, that is true enough. It sounded a bit "general" in your post. You know as well as I do that the French usually regard themselves as "individualistic" while they in general tend to be rather egoistic. Look at civil aviation. While aviation news magazines and civil aviation "groups" in other European countries fight for the rights of the average visitors and general public, our French friends are quite content to have their secured "niche" in their place where they can take photos while the general public is sent off. The sheer lust of French trades unions and students is indeed legendary. But it at the other hand is obvious that a good part (do not ask me for percentage points, please -- thanks) of the French students, and this most certainly includes such ones who took part in such upheavals, go to work decently and honestly.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
They have 10% unemployment not because the average person is incapable of working, or that there aren't jobs, but because it's too easy to stay unemployed. The benefits earned by unemployment are too good. There are too many 'black money' jobs available where a person pays no taxes (if you counted the jobs people have that dodge taxes unemployment would be several points lower).

look at history. People of that kind found ways to survive unemployed long before social welfare became established. While the word "Boheme" refers to Bohemia in Czechia it in reality is referring to French people who wanted to have an easy life with "high culture" . Black jobs in France will survive ANY change of law.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
This culture is indemic in secondary and post secondary students who expect to be taken care of and don't like discipline or additional demands placed on them. The mere fact that they are burning stuff and inviting the Police Nationale to launch CS and pepper gas their way is simply more evidence of this. They have bad habits and no one wants to correct them.

True. Except that no one CAN and will correct these bad habits.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 25):
A) who says they dislike France ?
--
They do

I DISagree. they do NOT. Most simply are against whatever authority. Some are simply against work.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 25):
people who didn't like NZ started rioting, the non-NZers would face deportation

and would get accepted as immigrants ? where ?

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 25):
their actions stink

yes, I agree, they do

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 25):
Paris has had enough rioting for now.

maybe, but Paris unfortunately is prone to this, and will have it again. Paris in the past however has survived such turmoil and will do so in future
 
Thorben
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 20):
If they don't like the French State they should leave it, French citizens or not!

They are protesting against some legislation. Why should they leave France? Besides, these are not the "French" from the suburbs, in case you thought that.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
protesting against some legislation. Why should they leave France? Besides, these are not the "French" from the suburbs, in case you thought that.

also had that impression -- by the way he put his "phrasing" !  yes 
 
WorldVoyager
Posts: 373
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:56 am

I sure chose an interesting semester to study abroad in Paris.

I haven't had class in three weeks because of the student strikes (human chains in the doorways and elevators, etc.)

Police vans are lining every street around the 5th and 6th arrondissements and hundreds of cops everywhere camping out in full riot armor.

The Sorbonne was taken over for the first time since the student riots of 1968 (that turned the French university system into a complete socialist bureaucracy in the first place) and the cops had to use tear gas.

But I gotta admit, I'm having a great time!

Vive la France!
 
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yowza
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
been in Beirut lately ? it is a tremendous city again, in many ways better than before 1975

I was just making a historical joke. I was in Beirut twice last year and loved it. Great nightlife, some beautiful places and friednly people.

YOWza
 
dl021
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
You know as well as I do that the French usually regard themselves as "individualistic" while they in general tend to be rather egoistic.

I agree with that.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
ok, that is true enough. It sounded a bit "general" in your post.

I apologize for giving that impression. Sometimes language and cultural barriers make it difficult to understand each others true intent when saying something. That and the natural tendency for people to slam the French in matters such as this.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
look at history. People of that kind found ways to survive unemployed long before social welfare became established. While the word "Boheme" refers to Bohemia in Czechia it in reality is referring to French people who wanted to have an easy life with "high culture" . Black jobs in France will survive ANY change of law.

Unfortunately this is a vestige of feudalism and the reaction/response to thiso of the proletariat which still exists in the desire of Frenchmen to "man the barricades!" and figure out how to beat the bureaucracy.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
True. Except that no one CAN and will correct these bad habits.

I'm afraid that's correct.

Quoting WorldVoyager (Reply 29):
Police vans are lining every street around the 5th and 6th arrondissements and hundreds of cops everywhere camping out in full riot armor.

Hell, those guys are always around somewhere in Paris. If you don't see them it's because they're in the busses sitting on the secondary streets.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jafa39
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
and would get accepted as immigrants ? where ?

If you get deported from NZ you go back to your home country.

I think its sad that Paris has to accept such BS from students, who are preventing those who are happy with the system from learning, there are times when "tolerance" isn't the way.....
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 32):
you go back to your home country.

These students in Paris however ARE in their home-country, and so can neither "go back" nor be "deported" to anywhere. It is "native" French and not immigrants.
 
dl021
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:42 am

Well, to be very fair the universities in Paris are full of foreigners who come to study at the highly respected institutions located there. These students often take part in the demonstrations.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
are full of foreigners

there of course are many foreigners in these universities, but for sure a definite French majority. I do NOT believe for a moment that the foreigners were in favour of these "actions" and the nice "natives" against, etc . Neither do I accept notions about the "bad influence" of "those foreigners". no, no, no, this matter is simply an "intra-French" affair .
 
Toulouse
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 19):
It's about new employment laws that will make it easier to sack younger employees

Yes, but it's also a new employment law to "promote" the employment of younger employees. That's important to note. It's simply a new type of contractn with a trial period of 2 years, and the employee can be fired easily during that 2 year period.

Glad to see Villepin stuck with his ideas yesterday when interviewed on live national TV last night. Made a few concessions, but is not moving an inch apart from that, and he's right when he points out the very high levels of youth unemployment in France, that is not a new problem and must be dealt with, and this is how he's doing it.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
dl021
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
are full of foreigners

there of course are many foreigners in these universities, but for sure a definite French majority. I do NOT believe for a moment that the foreigners were in favour of these "actions" and the nice "natives" against, etc . Neither do I accept notions about the "bad influence" of "those foreigners". no, no, no, this matter is simply an "intra-French" affair .

I certainly did not intend to infer that the native French students were being led astray by foreign influence, merely to point out that there are plenty of foreign students participating and are no better than the natives.

I don't see any real problem with giving companies a couple of years to try someone on before making it next to impossible to fire them. It makes them work that much harder and be responsible for their actions as well as make them face the same hazards of the marketplace as their employers....who now have to swallow the poison pill.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: More Riots In Paris Right Now

Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 37):
foreign students participating and are no better than the natives.

ok, agreed

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