bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:19 am

It has been three years since the invasion. Saddam is gone. Elections have taken place. No WMDs, billions spent, thousands killed. Im just stirring the pot a bit, lets hear some good debate please.
 
byronsterk
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:28 am

Well, to be very honest, i think Iraq was better of with Saddam then without him. I'm not talking about the pepole he killed (which of course is terrible) but Iraq in general. You have to admit, it's a mess. American's and European's that keep saying that the power is all in the Iraqi's hands, while it isn't completely.

As for the elections, can you really say they were as fair as any civilized Democratic country? Like the USA (with the exception of George w. Bush) or the U.K or Germany? These 'Elections' were somehow corrupt and irrelieable.

And the so called government that has been formed, who do you think still has the power in Iraq? Not that government that's for sure...

In all, a quick summary can say that it is a mess in Iraq.

I think it's 50/50 here as to pepole thinking that it was wrong of the USA to invade Iraq. My opinion: They should never have done it, along with Afghanistan and other long gone wars like Vietnam.

(i will be gone next week so unfortunatly i can't participate for the greatest part in this debate.
Helicopters can't fly, there just so ugly the earth repells them...
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
My opinion: They should never have done it, along with Afghanistan and other long gone wars like Vietnam.

What do you know of Vietnam? My curiosity is piqued based solely on the age you list for yourself in your profile.

Furthermore, what know you of Afghanistan. At best you were 12, at worst you were 7 years old when 9/11 occured. On what do you base your opinion that Afghanistan was an error? Did you lose any friends/family on 9/11?


Bushpilot, my Dillingham friend . . .

You know of course this thread will turn rapidly into the same bash fest amongst the same members.

WMD, No WMD . . .

Saddam, no Saddam . . .

Al Queda, no Al Queda . . .

On and on . . . and then some idiot will pop in here with some entirely new conspiracy theory . . .

I'll be utterly amazed if anyone - anyone - presents anything new or different. What I suspect is the same old thing . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:38 am

By any measure it hasn't been a success. To many people have died for what. (In people I am included the Iraq people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time); to many people have been seriously injured that will effect them for the rest of their life, (and our government wants to cut VA funding). The end result the President got a photo op on an aircraft carrier; the neo-cons got their wish in getting rid of Saddam; and the world will be stuck with another unstable government that will be influenced by Iran, and the prospect of a civil war like what happen in the Balkans. And I didn't even mention the financial cost to the USA taxpayers for the many years ahead .
 
byronsterk
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
My curiosity is piqued based solely on the age you list for yourself in your profile.

Now just what cind of redicoulous thing is that to say. Even if i was 10 when 9/11 happend (i'm 15 now) that doesn't mean i can't know a lot about it. Same goed for Vietnam and i'm positively that was a horrible thing to do of the USA but that's been long forgotten thankfully.

Just because i'm youg doesn't mean i'm stupid... and 10 year olds can watch the news.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Did you lose any friends/family on 9/11?

Maybe you seem to forget that 9/11 is not the only terrorist act there was. Did you lose any family in 9/11? If so, my condolences. Yet probably just like me you didn't lose any family or friends at 9/11. So that's based on absolutely nothing.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Furthermore, what know you of Afghanistan.

I know it has a lot of oil... and that Bin Laden is yet to be found there.

However Europeans and Americans will always think different about this and obviously our ages also make the nessecery differences in possible opinion.

And one one point i couldn't agree more with you, were just going to get the same old yes/no discussion out of this topic.
Helicopters can't fly, there just so ugly the earth repells them...
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
My opinion: They should never have done it, along with Afghanistan and other long gone wars like Vietnam.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Afghanistan. That war was very necessary, as the Taliban was harboring people directly responsible for the 9/11 attacks (in addition to being a first-class bunch of fundamentalist idiots), and would not bring them to justice. That war was just, and it was supported by most of the rest of the world (including France, Germany, et al who stayed out of Iraq).

As far as Iraq goes, it hasn't been pretty, and god knows there's been more money and lives (both US and Iraqi) wasted there than most people care to think about. The number one thing that comes to my mind is awful mismanagement and failure of leadership at the upper levels in the government (including the President and Cabinet). This could have been all but over already, but it seems that only now have we stopped the policy of taking three steps forward and two steps back. Iraq may be better off now than it was before in terms of freedoms, but it's far worse in terms of stability, and with the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds unable to get along and work together in the government, with civil war looking like a distinct possibililty, I do wonder how much worse it has to get before it gets better.

Before the war, I had serious questions about how capable the Iraqis were of handling democracy. I don't think the government took that issue seriously enough, and we (and the Iraqis) are paying the price.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
i think Iraq was better of with Saddam then without him.

Thought I dont quite agree with the war, that is utter BS. ANC, you should be happy to hear me say that.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
These 'Elections' were somehow corrupt and irrelieable.

By whose standards? the general concensus among anyone who knows or cares is that the elections were free and fair.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Bushpilot, my Dillingham friend . . .

You know of course this thread will turn rapidly into the same bash fest amongst the same members.

I know I know ANC, but hey nobody else mentioned the war started three years ago. Thought Id take the opportunity to stir the pot a bit. Im at work for a bit today wasting time, figured this would make it pass quickly. How about meeting up sometime when Im in town? Id love to sit down and chat with ya.


Quoting Aircop (Reply 3):
and the prospect of a civil war like what happen in the Balkans.

I am afraid civil war is pretty much going on. Another 22 bodies found today in secular violence, more than 500 iraqis killed by iraqis in less than a month.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I'm going to have to disagree with you on Afghanistan. That war was very necessary, as the Taliban was harboring people directly responsible for the 9/11 attacks (in addition to being a first-class bunch of fundamentalist idiots), and would not bring them to justice

 checkmark 

In Iraq-
I believe Saddam had to be removed.And that's done.
As I said before,a timetable should be established for pull
out as to have everyone understand,unlike the attitude in Vietnam
were the US was the comfort zone,we cannot repeat that mistake
in Iraq.The Iraqi political house must be put in order.I would put
a time frame of 18 months on it.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
Now just what cind of redicoulous thing is that to say.

It's a valid question - and thus far a valid response hasn't been provided.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
Just because i'm youg doesn't mean i'm stupid

Didn't say that you were.


Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
Yet probably just like me you didn't lose any family or friends at 9/11.

Incorrect.

Lacey B. Ivory, Army Sergeant Major, 43, Missouri

Larry L. Strickland. Army Sergeant Major, 52, Washington

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
I know it has a lot of oil...

Wrong country . . .

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
However Europeans and Americans will always think different about this and obviously our ages also make the nessecery differences in possible opinion.

Seems to me the Americans and Europeans were pretty much in concert over Afghanistan . . . many of European friends have troops there at this very minute. Perhaps that news profess to watch should be reviewed for accuracy.

I think you better get back to studying up on this . . .

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
Thought I dont quite agree with the war, that is utter BS. ANC, you should be happy to hear me say that.

Hey I know you don't agree with the war, but you're obviously not stupid . . .  wink 

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
How about meeting up sometime when Im in town? Id love to sit down and chat with ya.

Absolutely . . . any time . . . drop me an e-mail to my A-Net contact in the profile and it's beer-thirty when you arrive!  thumbsup 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
I know it has a lot of oil... and that Bin Laden is yet to be found there.

Afghanistan doesnt have much of either.

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 7):
The Iraqi political house must be put in order.I would put a time frame of 18 months on it.

You should run for Potus, thats more of an answer we are getting out of him. Though I am not sure 18 months is remotely close, at the rate things are going now it will possibly be a decade before we see any real good come out of this. Right now there is little electricity, less actually than when Saddam was in power, clean water is at a premium, and there are even fuel shortages. Imagine Iraq having a fuel shortage.
My biggest fear since the removal of Saddam is happening. Civil war. Secular violence is growing every day, the central government is accomlishing little to stop it. The religious radicals are inciting it, and the citizens are dying for it.
I will say that when this is all said and done, the american people better be paying close to nothing at the gas pumps.
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:37 am

It's both depressing and hope-inspiring. I totally disagree with the motivation for war and the misrepresentation thereof, and I think that another dictator will eventually wind up in Saddam's palaces, the next in a long line.

Still, I hope that the folks who are just trying to live their lives and get by day-to-day will gain a modicum of security, freedom and opportunity out of the whole mess. History will tell whether the benefits gained for the world outweigh the destruction wrought, but isn't that the case in most wars?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
I'll be utterly amazed if anyone - anyone - presents anything new or different.

You're probably right. What's done is done, and rehashing all that crap probably gets us nowhere.

I do believe, however, that the time is quickly approaching where we need to start making some serious plans about when and how we are going to leave Iraq. It is well past time for the Iraqis to step up in a meaningful and significant way regarding their own security.

Earlier this month the only Iraqi Army battalion that was rated as being capable of independent combat operations was downgraded to a lower level of preparedness.

That is not the result of poor training. That is the result of a profound lack of willingness to defend their own country. We cannot train people to do that. We can train people to engage with and destroy the enemy, but we cannot train them to care. That is something they must do for themselves.

There has been more than enough time to train up Iraqi security forces. Lack of time is not the problem, and additional time is not the solution.

The time for military solutions in Iraq is over and probably has been for some time. The problems in Iraq are social, cultural, and political. Only the Iraqis can address those issues. It's time to bring our men and women home and let the chips fall where they may.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
However Europeans and Americans will always think different about this [Afghanistan] and obviously our ages also make the nessecery differences in possible opinion.

Who or which organization exactly opposed to the war on Afghanistan? As said by ANC, the USA, Europe, NATO and UNO have all been in concert.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
These 'Elections' were somehow corrupt and irrelieable.

Granted, the election itself was free (and voter participation was high) but not fair. But the real problem is that there is still no elected government.
I support the right to arm bears
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 7):
The Iraqi political house must be put in order.

Only the Iraqis themselves can do that. The US military cannot; wrong tool for the job.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
PSA53
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 13):
Only the Iraqis themselves can do that.

Oh,agreed!So,why prolong a problem about a part of the world who aren't
to hot about the democratic process to begin with?



<

[Edited 2006-03-19 02:50:14]
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
CO7e7
Posts: 2686
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:39 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
I know it has a lot of oil...

No my friend, It has a lot of Heroin!!

I personally don't think one can compare between the war in Afganistan and the one in Iraq. They're two different wars with 2 different outcomes!
Afganistan was a Success! Iraq........not so much!
 
FlyguyAZ
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:29 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:05 pm

You know, I am a die hard Democrat, but I was behind George W Bush in the weeks and months following 9/11-- I was actually kind've proud of him at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan....but then came Iraq.

This has got to be the costliest mistake in history for the US in the way of international relations. I remember traveling to Europe in 2002 and seeing American flags still flying alongside French flags on homes in Normandy-- still thankful for the American involvement in WWII. But when I went back in 2005, it was completely different. Holding an American passport no longer felt like an honor, it felt like a liability.

Iraq was a colossal mistake- some people believe that democracy can flourish anywhere-- but democracy cannot be forced on people or a nation. That sort of change has to come from within. At the very least it cannot come by military force from a nation half a world away.

And while the US is busy now managing the quagmire in Iraq, Al Qaeda remains a threat to Europe and America- and Bin Laden is nowhere to be found.

Most educated people have known since day one that Bush was incompetent and inept. Now everyone else is slowly pulling their blinders off too. And the tragic part is that he did have a chance to really shine in the days after 9/11-- if he had not railroaded his own "War on Terror" by invading a sovereign nation and diverting attention, money, and resources from the real center of terrorism, he might have become the FDR of the 21st century.
Future ER Doc!
 
TERRA
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:37 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:29 pm

Hasn't this subject been flogged to death by now in the numerous other threads?

As ANCFlyer says it will turn into the normal bashing  box  and i can't be bothered to keep repeating the same old arguments.  banghead 
 
stlgph
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:43 pm

Quoting FlyguyAZ (Reply 16):

That was very well put.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
i think Iraq was better of with Saddam then without him

I think I am beginning to agree with this statement.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
byronsterk
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Incorrect.

Lacey B. Ivory, Army Sergeant Major, 43, Missouri

Larry L. Strickland. Army Sergeant Major, 52, Washington

Well then i'm sorry for saying that, my condolences.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Wrong country . . .

you are right, i was wrong with that. Stupid thing to say.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Seems to me the Americans and Europeans were pretty much in concert over Afghanistan . . . many of European friends have troops there at this very minute. Perhaps that news profess to watch should be reviewed for accuracy

yes, the governments were very in concert about it. But i don't recall anything being asked to the pepole (here in this county).

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Didn't say that you were.

no but maybe you can understand that it can make me feel like you do mean that, even if you don't.
Helicopters can't fly, there just so ugly the earth repells them...
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 19):
Well then i'm sorry for saying that, my condolences.

No worries, you couldn't know . . .

Here, check this if you'd like:
http://www.september11victims.com/se...ber11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=279
http://www.september11victims.com/se...ber11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=338
I knew others that were killed - only casually - but I'd known Lacey since the late 1970s and Larry since the Academy in 1995.


FlyGuy - interesting perspective you put forward . . . I know many folks that feel the same way. I agree with some of it in fact. I do take issue with this comment however:

Quoting FlyguyAZ (Reply 16):
Most educated people have known since day one that Bush was incompetent and inept.

How do you qualify this? "Most educated people" . . . . you can't make a blanket statement like this - which is obviously an opinion and not fact. Not to worry though, I'm not insulted . . . you are afterall a Democrat  wink 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 19):
yes, the governments were very in concert about it. But i don't recall anything being asked to the pepole (here in this county).

And I don't recall any protests that would be worth to be mentioned. The Taliban were urged to hand over Bin Laden but refused to. Thus they protected mass murders who attacked a country and made war more or less unevitable. Attacking Afghanistan was certainly the lesser evil.
I support the right to arm bears
 
bbiter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:58 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:58 am

I see some people on this thread advocating some sort of withdrawl timetable the argument being that its now up to the Iraqis to fend for themselves. Yes, I'm sure Zarquawi and his bunch would just love that.

HELLOOOOO?!?!?! Reality check please! GWB started this mess, and like it or not the US will have to be there for a looooooong time, probably beyond 2010. There is absoultely no justification for a US withdrawl before there is at least some semblence of stability/security in Iraq. And lets face it, the situation is just getting worse.

Dubya and his cronies underestimated what they were getting into. Not enough troops and wrong priorities. By wrong priorities I mean that they spent too many resources in finding non-existent WMD and Baath party officials instead of securing conventional weapons depots. And not securing the borders was another blunder in an endless series of blunders.

It seems that situation in the mid-east is a result of a series of US foreign policy mistakes. What we see today is the direct result of Bush senior's mistake of not finishing off Saddam when he had the opportunity in 1991. His mentally inferior son used 9/11 as a pretext for correcting that mistake. Only he grossly underestimated what he was getting into. Consequently, the west and the Iraqi people will pay the price for many years to come.
 
soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:43 am

Cheney today (March 19th) stated on TV that there is no civil war in Iraq. Also said that the war can be won.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 23):
Cheney today (March 19th) stated on TV that there is no civil war in Iraq. Also said that the war can be won.

It must be absolutely true then.  mischievous 
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:04 am

My view?

Boy....we sure f**ked that up, didn't we? Good thing Bush knows what he's doing!  Yeah sure
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:15 am

The Iraq invasion was not a legitimate action - thats my view now, that was my view 3 years ago and thats always been my view.

Saddam was an evil dictator, but it was not the wests responsability to depose him - the world would be simply a horrible place if it was the norm to get rid of countries rulers that you dont approve of, even if they did treat their own citizens badly. If the change was to come, it should have come from inside.

The WMD arguement was rubbish from the start, and France and Germany did well to turn it down when the request was put before the UNSC. The flak that they got from mainly US citizens (Freedom Fries? Wtf?) showed that this was primarily a nationalistic action rather than anything else.

And now the same overtones are being made toward Iran.

The current administration cannot get by on the goodwill laid down from prior administrations acts. Yes, the US helped Europe in WW2 and the Coldwar, but it in no way entitles you to carte blanche on future actions.

Also, Americans need to realise that dislike of US foreign policies or administrations doesnt equal hatred of the US.

As for my own government? Well, Im disgusted with them, totally and utterly. If my local government seat wasnt a staunch Tory seat, I would be giving serious consideration to standing against any Labour candidates myself.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 23):
Cheney today (March 19th) stated on TV that there is no civil war in Iraq. Also said that the war can be won

The non-existent civil war can be won?
I support the right to arm bears
 
soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 27):

Just reciting today's news from www.nytimes.com NoUFO. Personally, I think the Iraqi War is the shame of the American people, who sadly voted Bush in, and shamefully re-elected him. Latest poll shows about a 30% approval rating, with 15% approving of the war continuing indefinitely. Bush/Rumsfeld have used that term since they do not want to pinned down to a speciffic exit date.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:37 am

My view hasn't changed: it was a mistake to start the war; we didn't have enough troops to occupy the nation; we didn't have a gameplan for winning the peace; we made serious blunder dismantling the army there; now we're there, and we have to stay there, out of a debt of honor to the Iraqi people, to try and make it work.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
Well, to be very honest, i think Iraq was better of with Saddam then without him.

I wouldn't say that. It's just as bad, just in a different way. Being killed by the whim of a dictator or by a roadside bomb makes you just as dead.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
They should never have done it, along with Afghanistan and other long gone wars like Vietnam.

First off, being as young as your are, I don't think you have the knowledge to make a qualified statement about Vietnam. As for Afghanistan, we had every right, and absolutely should have done what we did there. If someone commits an act of war on you, you have the right to war in kind, and we did so, and were completely justified to do so. The conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq are totally different, even if our esteemed president tried to link them.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 4):
Same goed for Vietnam and i'm positively that was a horrible thing to do of the USA but that's been long forgotten thankfully.

I'm going to ask you something, my young friend: do you even know who started the Vietnam War? If you know, then I'll give you a little more credit.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 28):

I know you just quoted the news, and it's obvious, Mr. Cheney meant to say the war on terror can be won, but something along the line "there's no civil war ... (but) ... the war can be won" is involuntarily humorous. No offence ...
I support the right to arm bears
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 23):
Cheney today (March 19th) stated on TV that there is no civil war in Iraq. Also said that the war can be won.

It is astonishing to me that anyone listens to the VP on this issue. The record is littered with his comments and predictions that time and time again have turned out to be complete nonsense. The man has absolutely no credibility whatsoever, zero.

That is actually one of the surprises for me regarding this war. Dick Cheney did an excellent job as SecDef during the Gulf War, but this crap now is something else. He has been profoundly wrong about Iraq at every possible opportunity in the last five years. Historians are going to tear this dude up. His legacy is shit.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 31):
Dick Cheney did an excellent job as SecDef during the Gulf War, but this crap now is something else.

Because Grunt - he listened to the field commanders. That is something I don't think is happening with Rummy and consequently, it's being fed to PotUS and VPotus; similary with info from SecState on this matter.

I believe, sincerely, the crux of the problem is Rumsfeld.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting BBiter (Reply 22):
What we see today is the direct result of Bush senior's mistake of not finishing off Saddam when he had the opportunity in 1991.

I think that is true to the point, but the politics of the first war were entirely different. We had a true coalition, and a UN mandate. When Kuwait was liberated, mission accomplished. The US had very little in the way of casualties during the war. If the drive to Baghdad was kept up, you would have seen exponentially more casualties on both sides and a complete dismantaling of the coaliton. I truely believe Bush 41 did the right thing in halting when he did. What he did wrong was not support the popular uprising against Saddam in the days following the conflict.

Quoting BBiter (Reply 22):
His mentally inferior son used 9/11 as a pretext for correcting that mistake.

This I believe is absolutely true. Bush 41 was second guessed by every pundit and arm chair general in the world. Dubya dont like folk talkin bad bout daddy.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 23):
Cheney today (March 19th) stated on TV that there is no civil war in Iraq.

Cheney has lost touch with reality. I truely believe this.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 23):
Also said that the war can be won.

Once again out of touch with reality. As NoUFO said, how can a war that isnt going on be won. Sure he probably meant the entire war in Iraq, but Im not convinced he considers the insurgency a war itself either. "Uhhh duhhh its an insurgency Wolf, not a war" Just like he knew that the WMDs where in the Sunni triangle.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
I believe, sincerely, the crux of the problem is Rumsfeld.

Interesting ANC, I would really like for you to elaborate on this further, I have heard lots of blame being thrown around among Bush and the cabinet, but Rummy has escaped most of the criticism among the other players involved.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 33):
Interesting ANC, I would really like for you to elaborate on this further, I have heard lots of blame being thrown around among Bush and the cabinet, but Rummy has escaped most of the criticism among the other players involved.

Rummy runs the Pentagon like a dictatorship. Not only have I seen this personally, but I have many acquaintances either still there or having been assigned there that will tell you the same thing.

Things on that side of the Potomac are kept very close hold - even more so than in any other time I witnessed in my 24 years service - and not much is made public. Even when it is - it's generally Rummy doing the talking - or rather the double talking.

Remember the infamous "fight this on the cheap"? And the continued reduction in forces even as the war in Afghanistan was ramping up. Toss Iraq in there and what have you got - a stretched far too thin US Army and US Marine Corps.

Remember Gen Eric Shinsheki's parting comment, "Beware the 12 Division Strategy with a 10 Division Army" . . . spoken at his retirement ceremony that Rumsfeld refused to attend?

Remember the bullshit comment to the young soldier asking about armor for the Hummers?

Remember that the new Chief of Staff of the US Army had to be brought out of retirement because no one - I mean NO ONE - 4 stars or 3 stars (to get the promotion) wanted the job under Rummy.

He's an arrogant, autocratic dictator that has the respect of very, very, very few seniors in the Pentagon, most of whom won't voice any concern in public for fear their career termination lights will illuminate . . .

All true.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
9VSPO
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 9:03 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
It has been three years since the invasion. Saddam is gone. Elections have taken place

And it's worse there now than it's ever been!  Sad
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 34):

Thanks for the quick reply, I really havent paid much attention to him rather focusing on the white house. But your comments on his arrogance is spot on. His ego is bigger than the defense budget. When I do see him, he seems to always be talking down to the reporter who asks him questions, his answer to the soldiers question about Humvee armor was atrocious. Would you say he is letting politics and his own agenda invade the war fighting ability of the military?
I am not surprised nobody wants to work for him, I have heard he is very difficult to deal with as a subordinate. He is just a middle man in the grand scheme of things. Burning the candle at both ends like he does is dangerous. His first priority should be making sure the troops wherever they are have what they need. Then he needs to be accountable to Potus and the American people through congress and the media. Not happening.

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 35):

I wrote those examples in the thread starter to try and balance some of the debate around. But it didnt seem to prove much effective as nearly down the line everyone is against it.

In the meantime Bush approval rating has dropped to %30 I wonder if ever a president has experienced such a swing in approval rating during thier terms. His foreign policy has us hated more now by the citizens of our allies since at least LBJ.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
I believe, sincerely, the crux of the problem is Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld may have provided some bad advise and leadership, but when it's all said and done George Bush is the crux of the problem. He is the Commander-in-Chief. It was his decision to invade Iraq, and he is the one who must take responsability for the problems. The buck doesn't stop with the SecDef or any other advisors. The buck stops in the Oval Office. This is Bush's war.

As far as Rumsfeld goes, I think you and I have both said he should have been fired long, long ago. The only thing I'll say in his defense is that I don't think he's the real SecDef. For all intents and purposes, Cheney has been not only the VP, but the SecDef and the SecState as well.

While I agree that not listening to the field commanders has been an issue and a problem, in large part I think that's beside the point because the core problems of the Iraq war are not military problems. The really serious mistakes have been political and cultural in nature. I think it's foolish to think that military officers or defense experts are going to provide a lot of well founded opinions on those subjects. That's just not where the strength of their training or experience is. That has been one of the ongoing problems with this conflict; we expect the military to find solutions to problems that they know almost nothing about.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 36):
In the meantime Bush approval rating has dropped to %30 I wonder if ever a president has experienced such a swing in approval rating during thier terms.

It's being said that only Nixon after Watergate experienced a similar ratings low.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 37):
As far as Rumsfeld goes, I think you and I have both said he should have been fired long, long ago.

 checkmark  We have . . .

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 37):
The only thing I'll say in his defense is that I don't think he's the real SecDef. For all intents and purposes, Cheney has been not only the VP, but the SecDef and the SecState as well.

 scratchchin  Never heard that before - interesting concept.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 37):
That has been one of the ongoing problems with this conflict; we expect the military to find solutions to problems that they know almost nothing about.

Quite true - as has been said before - after the initial invasion, there was no plan . . . by anyone as far as I'm concerned . . . for followon operations.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Derico
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:16 am

To be perfectly honest almost no-one cares about Iraq around these parts anymore. It barely makes any news.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 37):
He is the Commander-in-Chief. It was his decision to invade Iraq, and he is the one who must take responsability for the problems.

Granted and I agree a bunch with this statement, but you will never see him do anything of the sort. He who fails to look back at thier actions objectively are bound to make similar mistakes in the future.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 37):
Cheney has been not only the VP, but the SecDef and the SecState as well.

Interesting idea, one that I would agree with you on, one could also say he was the top man himself, the problem with this is that he isnt doing any of them effectively.

Quoting Derico (Reply 40):
To be perfectly honest almost no-one cares about Iraq around these parts anymore. It barely makes any news.

I am not surprised, its front page news here everyday, but you'll be hearing more about the war on terror if Chavez up in Ven. doesnt cool his jets a bit. I am not condoning any action there, but it was an oil rich despot with a taste for rhetoric and secularism who got the US into what we have now...and no I dont mean Bush on that description.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 32):
I believe, sincerely, the crux of the problem is Rumsfeld.

I think you're right, but I think there's an additional element:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Rumsfeld is the SecDef in principle as well as in title. It's obvious that his blunders have had negative effects on the entire Army. It's obvious that he is not fit to be the SecDef. It's obvious that he should not be working anywhere near the Pentagon, much less in it. My question is: with all of that as a given, why the hell is he still SecDef?

That's Bush's fault, and it's the only place I can legitimately lay blame specifically at his feet. I don't blame him for starting the war - I was pretty sure the whole WMD thing was a bunch of crap, but I was totally in favor of getting rid of Saddam. I don't blame him for things going wrong with Abu Ghraib, etc. - mistakes can happen in any armed conflict, even to the best of militaries. But the mistakes have been patched over instead of really fixed properly - treating the symptoms and not the disease. Rumsfeld didn't just make one mistake, he's built himself a horrific track record of non-stop arrogant incompetence - piss-poor postwar planning, Abu Ghraib, trying to run a war on the cheap, inadequate protection for the troops, and all the other crap he's come up with - why hasn't he been fired? I honestly believe that having Rumsfeld occupy the SecDef chair has cost American soldiers their lives, and American citizens their tax dollars (not to mention Iraqi lives, the very people who we're supposed to be helping). That is unacceptable. I don't care how much Bush likes to be loyal to his friends - human life is more important. And Rumsfeld's not going to fire himself - Bush has to do it. And by not doing it, he shows tacit consent of, and even support for, the disgrace that the DoD has become. Disgraceful to the soldiers in the field, who deserve far better leadership, and disgraceful to the country, which has to cope with the loss of dedicated young men and women, some of whom may be still alive had higher-ups knowns what they were doing.

Whoever is calling the shots on the defense side is of little consequence. Be it Rumsfeld, Cheney (who I'm sure has at least a significant voice in the Pentagon, even if he isn't acting as SecDef), Rice - it could be Norman Mineta for all I care - they have to be replaced with competent, intelligent, and qualified leadership if we want significant progress to be made.

If the crux of the problem is Rumsfeld, and Bush fails to replace him, does not at least a large portion of the problem shift to Bush? He failed to put good people in the appropriate positions in the first place (bad mistake, but forgivable), and then failed to fix that error (unforgivable). That is his problem - his alone and nobody else's.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:38 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Never heard that before - interesting concept.

That's not my original thought by any means. There have been a number of senior "former" administration officials that have suggested that the VP has usurped the National Security decision making process by channeling information flow from State, the CIA, and DoD through his office, bypassing the National Security Adviser and in some cases the Secretaries.

Lawrence Wilkerson who served as chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell from 2002 to 2005 first made this allegation a year or so ago, but there have been others from the CIA and the Joint Counter-Terrorism Office that have basically said the same thing. Even Powell himself has said some things that suggest that the State Department was left out of the loop in deference to the VPs office.

Here's a LINK to Wilkerson's op-ed on the subject:
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
Well, to be very honest, i think Iraq was better of with Saddam then without him.

The area was defintely more stable.

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 1):
You have to admit, it's a mess.

 checkmark 

Quoting BBiter (Reply 22):
Dubya and his cronies underestimated what they were getting into.

This is one of the most tragic cases of tunnel vision in history.

My other thoughts are this -

1 - It is a fact now that bad intellegence led to the invasion. If you are even slightly considering taking your country into war, sending your own soldiers to thier possible deaths as well as others, you'd better make damned sure that your intelligence is factual and not estimated.

2 - I know I'm going to get hell for this and will welcome any reply, but wasn't the policy of the US Military do not fire until fired upon? We are firing back at Al-Queda, but what about Iraq?

3 - I support our troops 110%. It's the guys at the pinnicle I have issues with.

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 44):
It is a fact now that bad intellegence led to the invasion.

No. The available intelligence was the same all over - but only the US government (and to some degree the british one) misrepresented what they had until it fit a preconceived agenda. The intelligence was merely used as a pretense.

And this misrepresentation and the vulnerability of especially the US population to manipulative propaganda were the true reasons for a massive political and diplomatic disaster. Remember "freedom fries"? "european cowards"? "Saddam was behind 9-11"? The latter was actually believed by more than 80% of the US public, and apparently by a similar margin of the US troops to this very day.

And if those actual root causes aren't changed, it can happen again anytime. Governments will always find shreds of intelligence which can be cooked until being used for pulling the wool over a gullible public's eyes.
 
soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:55 am

Klaus, I agree with your points, especially that it can happen all over again. Clarification on one stat-polls showed 80%+ in favvor of the Iraqi invasion, but not that Saddam was behind 9-11. That was one point made by Cheney, but very, very few Americans found that credible. Thew WMDs was the deciding point. We all feel stupid now, here in the US, and evidenced by Bush's low opinion polls (today's papers have it at 30%, tied with LBJ during the early Vietnam years and lower than the Carter recession/stagflation years).
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Rumsfeld is the SecDef in principle as well as in title. It's obvious that his blunders have had negative effects on the entire Army. It's obvious that he is not fit to be the SecDef. It's obvious that he should not be working anywhere near the Pentagon, much less in it. My question is: with all of that as a given, why the hell is he still SecDef?

Which is the same question I've asked countless times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
That's Bush's fault

Which is the same reply I've given countless times.

Dumsfeld should have been gone . . . long ago.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 46):
Clarification on one stat-polls showed 80%+ in favvor of the Iraqi invasion, but not that Saddam was behind 9-11.

Actually, Klaus is correct although I've never seen the number as high as 80%. In fact 47% of the American public still believe that.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=544

As for the US military a recent poll of US personnel in Iraq found 85% believed the U.S. mission is mainly "to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9-11 attacks,".

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

It is very disappointing that such large numbers of people are prepared to accept that notion despite a complete lack of evidence. I think it's a scathing indictment of logic and critical thinking in the US, unbelievable stupidity.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Iraq 3 Years Later, Your Views

Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 46):
Clarification on one stat-polls showed 80%+ in favvor of the Iraqi invasion, but not that Saddam was behind 9-11. That was one point made by Cheney, but very, very few Americans found that credible.

I can't remember the actual source for that particular number, but this PEW survey shows that that false belief was in fact held by more than two thirds of the surveyed US population at one point. That is quite a bit more than "very, very few" - but not all that surprising after a massive propaganda onslaught from the White House and practically no dissenting voice from either the press or the opposition...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerlingus747, coolian2 and 29 guests