Derico
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Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:39 am

Not only that, Get ready for some quality putrid refereeing during the World Cup!

http://sports.yahoo.com/wcs/news?slu...eeslanguage&prov=reuters&type=lgns

So they are willing to scrap aside really good referees that cannot speak English for those that can speak English. Wow, if you thought the 2002 World Cup had horrid calls, just wait till June...
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EGGD
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:06 am

You think it's a bad thing?

You have issues, man.
 
AirCop
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:33 am

Clue me in. The World Cup is in Germany. German, Spanish and French are also official languages of the FIFA. I guessing most of the referees are intelligent (maybe blind) individuals and probably know two languages anyway. Shouldn't they be able to find one of the official languages that they can speak to each other with or is it English is going to be the official language of the world?
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:40 am

Hey Derico, there is not a conspiracy to prevent Argentina from winning, no matter how much you want one. The only discrimination is against age, as Pier Luigi Collina was forced to retire. He was by far the greatest ever football referee.

WrenchBender
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Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 1):
You think it's a bad thing?

Of course it is! So the good referees can't be selected because they can't speak English, you agree with that? You place language skills ahead of competency skills in officiating in a sport? I think you are the one with issues if that's so.

Quoting Aircop (Reply 2):
Shouldn't they be able to find one of the official languages that they can speak to each other with or is it English is going to be the official language of the world?

No because it has nothing to do with anything.

Wrenchbender:

And that is wrong too. And don't bring the nationality card into it as I'm really just talking about the refereeing, which will hurt EVERY team.

No one should be forced to speak a language in a line of work that does not require it whatsoever to excel at. It's wrong.
ps- I can't believe my post got removed!

[Edited 2006-03-22 04:41:47]
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yowza
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
And that is wrong too. And don't bring the nationality card into it as I'm really just talking about the refereeing, which will hurt EVERY team.

I seem to recall your Argentine Navy seizes British trawler thread. You my friend seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

English is spoken by at least one player on each team. This is not an assertion, this is a fact. No other language enjoys this coverage, not one. Furthmore, since they have decided to use teams of referees they too should have a common language.

Imagine you have Togo vs Korea. Do you think even one person on either team speaks a word of Spanish? Come on... quit shit disturbing.

YOWza
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
I seem to recall your Argentine Navy seizes British trawler thread. You my friend seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

I feel sorry for all of you. I can't bring one topic up without you guys not bringing some past topic? Did I once mention anything about a trawler?? The chip is in your shoulders, you find a boogie man in every issue someone brings up.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
Furthmore, since they have decided to use teams of referees they too should have a common language.

Why can't there be a team of referees from French-speaking countries, some from Spanish ones, other from German ones, and so on? It would have absolutely NO effect on the officiating if the referees in one particular team speak the SAME language even if it's one other than English, as long as they all speak the same language. Anyone understand this?

I wouldn't be opposed to one person on each team to speak English, to communicate to the players (evem though all of which speak English as you claim), but to force ALL of them to speak english and to ONLY have English-speaking teams is wrong.

And it does give an advantage to English teams, because believe it or not, language is also culture, and gestures, fcial expressions and the like can be interpreted differently by different people that speak different languages. It can potentially lead to bad calls of judgment on when to yellow card a a player for example.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
Imagine you have Togo vs Korea. Do you think even one person on either team speaks a word of Spanish? Come on... quit shit disturbing.

When did I make this something about Spanish specifically? It seems to me you are all assuming things out of the blue. That tells me something indeed...

I'm sorry, but you all seem to have a quite disturbing attitude, seemingly intolerant.
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luisde8cd
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
So they are willing to scrap aside really good referees that cannot speak English for those that can speak English.

Derico just one question:

Which VERY GOOD referees are being excluded with this decision?

Eso es todo  Wink

Saludos desde Caracas,
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Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 7):
Which VERY GOOD referees are being excluded with this decision?

Well, none perhaps, but that's a catch 22 question isn't it?

There are no very good referees as we know.  Wink

That said, if you don't speak English, FIFA will not allow you to referee. Sorry but that is wrong and I would say the exact SAME thing if they had said no-one that does not speak German, or Spanish, can referee.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
but to force ALL of them to speak english and to ONLY have English-speaking teams is wrong.

From the article you linked:

"It's important for an international team that when the referees get together they can communicate in one language," FIFA general secretary Urs Linsi said at a workshop for potential World Cup referees on Tuesday.

The referees are a team themselves, and the organizers want them all to be able to communicate with each other. They just happened to pick English.

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
And it does give an advantage to English teams, because believe it or not, language is also culture, and gestures, fcial expressions and the like can be interpreted differently by different people that speak different languages. It can potentially lead to bad calls of judgment on when to yellow card a a player for example.

Now I'm just a silly American with no understanding of what the rest of the world calls football, but which facial gestures gets a player yellow carded?
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yowza
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):

When did I make this something about Spanish specifically? It seems to me you are all assuming things out of the blue. That tells me something indeed...

I was using Spanish to demonstrate my point to you because you obviously speak Spanish.
What happens when you have Angola vs Russia or Saudi Arabia vs Korea, does anyone on these teams speak Spanish, French or German? Very unlikely. You could argue that Portuguese is close enough to Spanish for the Angolans but that would be a stupid argument as clarity is imperative in match situations.

You need to stop taking things so personally. As for my bringing up your past posts, well I was simply trying to make a point that you have been known to be hugely outnumbered in threads and still maintain that you were right.

YOWza
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
You need to stop taking things so personally. As for my bringing up your past posts, well I was simply trying to make a point that you have been known to be hugely outnumbered in threads and still maintain that you were right.

If we as a society thought that people are right or wrong based on being outnumbered, then we should still believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun is hanging from a glass ceiling...

ps- What was everyone right 'on'?? Or me for that matter? As I recall most of the other topics are matters of opinion, opinions really can't be proven right or wrong.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
What happens when you have Angola vs Russia or Saudi Arabia vs Korea, does anyone on these teams speak Spanish, French or German? Very unlikely. You could argue that Portuguese is close enough to Spanish for the Angolans but that would be a stupid argument as clarity is imperative in match situations.

But you see when was this a problem in the last 14 World Cups?? Now all of the sudden is a problem?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
Now I'm just a silly American with no understanding of what the rest of the world calls football, but which facial gestures gets a player yellow carded?

It seriously could. If a player happens to argue with the referee about a call he does not like, which happens a lot, the English speaking players will gain an advantage in the way the resrtrain their language or gestures, so as to not get into foul trouble by getting on the wrong side of the referee.

A non-English speaking player is at a clear disadvantage here. He may not know that a certain word is really offensive for an English-speaking refereee, or a particular gesture, and the player may get unfairly yellow carded or ejected.

I think England, the United States and Australia will have a tactical advantage here.
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EGGD
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:25 am

They never said that the referee's must have English as a first language, just that they need to be able to have a reasonable proficiency in English so they can communicate easily between each other and so to create a team spirit, as pointed out clearly in the article. Without this, I think referee's and linesemen will have greater clarity in decision making and will be less swayed by player actions as when you have four officials who can clearly communicate a referee will be less isolated and so less influenced by players as he has his other officials to fall back on.

You are just using this as one more excuse for your reasoning that the whole world is against you and your country and we do everything within our powers to prevent you from competing on a level playing field. Once again you are wrong. I can't believe you couldn't connect the dots when you read the article and realized that it was a positive step towards better refereeing within the tournements.
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting EGGD (Reply 12):
I can't believe you couldn't connect the dots when you read the article and realized that it was a positive step towards better refereeing within the tournements.

I connected the dots... And language is culture, ipso facto culture is language.

Anyone that has learned another language will tell you that the actual learning of the language is closely tied with learning the gestures, idiomatic expressions, and manners of the people that speak that language. To learn how to properly behave in a social environment were such language is spoken.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 12):
You are just using this as one more excuse for your reasoning that the whole world is against you and your country and we do everything within our powers to prevent you from competing on a level playing field

This will affect non-European language teams much more than anyone else, so this reasoning is, again, flawed, by bringing over side issues such as this. Which begs the question why did you bring it up?

That said, there is no doubt that all countries are actively working all the time to f-ck themselves over. Only a naive cave dweller would believe otherwise!
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AeroWesty
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
And language is culture, ipso facto culture is language.

Then in all fairness, all footballers and referees worldwide should only communicate in Esperanto.
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N1120A
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:39 am

I don't understand the requirement that the refs demonstrate written proficiency in English. So FIFA, rightly or wrongly, wants them to all be able to talk to eachother, but do they want them to also be able to write love notes?
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yowza
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:50 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):

If we as a society thought that people are right or wrong based on being outnumbered, then we should still believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun is hanging from a glass ceiling...

So you're still taking things personally and ignoring my advice. Sure...

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):

ps- What was everyone right 'on'?? Or me for that matter? As I recall most of the other topics are matters of opinion, opinions really can't be proven right or wrong.

Well here are some of your quality posts:
"Is the position of this forum that some nationalities are more worth than others??" in reference to ANCFlyer

I think we're seeing clear pattern or sensitivity about you nationality and language. Incidentally I defended you in that thread so don't think I'm against you in any way.

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):

But you see when was this a problem in the last 14 World Cups?? Now all of the sudden is a problem?

Player referee communication has been an issue ina few world cups actually and even if it hadn't there is nothing wrong with making a proactive change.

I see you cleverly avoided replying to my matchups scenarios, very smooth.  Yeah sure

Incidentally don't you find it discriminatory that A.net is only in English?
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
So the good referees can't be selected because they can't speak English, you agree with that? You place language skills ahead of competency skills in officiating in a sport?

-
While it in single cases may be negative as there may be a "provincial" but otherwise superb referee around who only speaks German or French or Spanish I am fairly certain that most good referees in the world who are active internationally have an acceptable command of English. I presume that FIFA does NOT demand a command of English OK for "Ox-bridge", but just a sufficient one for the job to be done.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
So the good referees can't be selected because they can't speak English, you agree with that? You place language skills ahead of competency skills in officiating in a sport?

-
While it in single cases may be negative as there may be a "provincial" but otherwise superb referee around who only speaks German or French or Spanish I am fairly certain that most good referees in the world who are active internationally have an acceptable command of English. I presume that FIFA does NOT demand a command of English OK for "Ox-bridge", but just a sufficient one for the job to be done.
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
Incidentally don't you find it discriminatory that A.net is only in English?
YOWza

Uhh... no. Because here you can CHOOSE to participate or not. There are aviation forums in other languages, at least there are in Spanish. No one here is coerced to know English to participate. They can have their stuff translated online, and while not exactly 'pretty' to read, it would make it generally understandable. A.net does not require you as a register 'compulsory' to know English.

Nor have I ever brought the issue up or suggested, as quite a few others have, that A.net allow forums in other languages.Thus your are mixing apples with brussel sprouts trying to tie this topic with some other issue.

In that other thread you mentioned, someone was making fun of hundreds of dead people 'at the bottom of the Atlantic'. I was simply very angry at a seeming double-standard. I don't know about you, but had I done such a similar comment but alluding to some other 'events' relating to the poster's nationality, it would have been removed immediately. Isn't treating two similar things differently a double-standard?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
Player referee communication has been an issue ina few world cups actually and even if it hadn't there is nothing wrong with making a proactive change

I don't think it has been an issue between the referees, almost always FIFA would pair referees that speak the same language. They don't need to be talking to the players about their judgments, they just referee and the players must accept the calls. That is why the examples regarding the games you mentioned most probably would have been 'resolved' in the manner that has been suggested, that is someone and the referee speaking the same language, in many instances probably English.

Since it's probable than in previous World Cups referees and players were already DE FACTO speaking in English with each others, such being the case, why then make it an actual official policy?
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
Since it's probable than in previous World Cups referees and players were already DE FACTO speaking in English with each others, such being the case, why then make it an actual official policy?

-
well, you of course are factually right. It however looks as if FIFA wants to have English as THE language of the referees so that they no longer have to consider the language of them.
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
well, you of course are factually right. It however looks as if FIFA wants to have English as THE language of the referees so that they no longer have to consider the language of them.

Well then that is wrong. People should not have a certain language forced down upon them!

Let the referees and player choose. What ever happened to the freedom of choice?
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Pyrex
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
So they are willing to scrap aside really good referees that cannot speak English for those that can speak English.

FIFA as an institution has been rotten to the core for a long time. If only that was their only problerm...
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 21):
Let the referees and player choose. What ever happened to the freedom of choice?

Suppose that English would be the language of choice, in case of "elections" in three rounds, in which Spanish and German would loose out first/second, and French third. And again, I expect that any internationally active referee speaks English anyway. Why then such a "decision" ? Possibly only to show how important they are for some bureaucrats in FIFA. But for sure no reason to get excited about.
 
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yowza
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
here you can CHOOSE to participate or not.

First thing's first I was being sarcastic, but since you bring it up participation in the WC is not obligatory. If you can convince Argentina's FA to drop out of the cup for this I'm sure Canada would be happy to send our team.

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
I don't think it has been an issue between the referees,

Not between referees, but between officials and players.

I understand your frustration but I think this is something that is here to say regardless of how much or little you or I like it. FIFA are know for bone-head moves. Just look at their rankings, the USA is ranked above France, England, Spain, Nigeria, Italy and a number of other countries that could pound the living shit out of them with 8 players.

YOWza
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 24):
If you can convince Argentina's FA to drop out of the cup for this I'm sure Canada would be happy to send our team.

It did boycott back in 1938, 1950, 1954 and 1958 for actually not totally 'dissimilar' reasons... so it's not like it hasn't happened before!
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ZRH
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:14 am

These arguments are very amusing and childish. It is absolutely ok that FIFA wants their international refs knowing English at least enough to communicate the most important things. There must be a language in which everybody can communicate. It is like in the air traffic control, everybody has to speak English. Of course the refs are not forced to speak English in any case. When there is a Spanish ref at a game between Argentina and Mexico they of course will speak Spanish. I don't see any problem with this and I am convinced that all good international refs know English.

[Edited 2006-03-24 02:30:37]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:24 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 26):
These arguments are very amusing and childish.

 checkmark 

Quoting ZRH (Reply 26):
It is absolutely ok that FIFA wants their international refs knowing English at least enough to communicate the most important things.

 checkmark 

Quoting Derico (Reply 21):
People should not have a certain language forced down upon them!
Let the referees and player choose.

I don't think nobody forces anything on anyone. FIFA just wants to make sure there is a guarantee of a "common denominator" language and I don't think it's a real surprise the chosen language is English.
Derico, stop seeing conspiracies where there aren't any. I mean it's just stupid football for crying out loud!!! Most people won't give damn two weeks after the WC is over.

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
Since it's probable than in previous World Cups referees and players were already DE FACTO speaking in English with each others, such being the case, why then make it an actual official policy?

Since it is DE FACTO happening, then why does it bother you so much?
 
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 25):
'dissimilar' reasons...

over-reactions ?  scratchchin   eyebrow 
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27):
Since it is DE FACTO happening, then why does it bother you so much?

Because it is your complacency which makes sure no one west of Portugal knows where the heck your country is! I can walk out on the street right now and ask around, most will go like 'is that a country?'

It's fine that you don't care. Don't force me NOT to care.  Wink
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ZRH
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 29):
Because it is your complacency which makes sure no one west of Portugal knows where the heck your country is! I can walk out on the street right now and ask around, most will go like 'is that a country?'

Do you have a paranoia? Argentina is one of the biggest countries in the world and I am sure that almost all people here in Switzerland know where it is and even know the name of its capital.
 
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 30):
Argentina is one of the biggest countries in the world and I am sure that almost all people here in Switzerland

there apparently is a double-misunderstanding. He referred to Czechia, and stated that people in Latin America did NOT excel in vast knowledge about Czechia and Prague ................
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
there apparently is a double-misunderstanding. He referred to Czechia, and stated that people in Latin America did NOT excel in vast knowledge about Czechia and Prague ................

Exactly. Most people still think it as Czechkoslovakia....
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Matt72033
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
No one should be forced to speak a language in a line of work that does not require it whatsoever to excel at. It's wrong.

like pilots? for instance?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 29):
Because it is your complacency which makes sure no one west of Portugal knows where the heck your country is! I can walk out on the street right now and ask around, most will go like 'is that a country?'



Quoting Derico (Reply 32):
Exactly. Most people still think it as Czechkoslovakia....

That could be very well true and we've got quite used to that over the years, so if that was supposed to be an insult your effort was futile. But nice try anyway...  
And if it is indeed the way you said, it says more about the education system in your country than my (our?) "complacency" (not to mention your pathetic spelling skills). On other hand I heard that the cult of "AL SANTO NIÑO DE PRAGA" is pretty strong in countries like Argentina, Brazil, etc. so maybe few people actually do now!?

BTW, your point you are trying to make in context with the initial post is...???  

[Edited 2006-03-24 16:03:25]
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 33):
like pilots? for instance?

That is a life and death matter. It's very different. I would hardly make the WC a life or death matter, thus why I make it an issue here and not in the situation regarding air traffic control.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 34):
And if it is indeed true it says more about the education system in your country than my (our?) "complacency", not to mention your pathetic spelling skills.

Did I say anywhere that our education system was any good? It's really bad.

The point is, why force a language down a group of referees in a really not so important contest? Does English really need help in making 'more' people speak it? Quite frankly Spanish would be the least affected language by such rules, but these decisions further isolate the smaller languages, and makes people that speak the dominant language more ignorant.

And ignorant people can make ignorant choices.
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AM744
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 24):
Just look at their rankings, the USA is ranked above France, England, Spain, Nigeria, Italy and a number of other countries that could pound the living shit out of them with 8 players.

That might not be true. They reached quarter-finals last WC whereas Argentina and France couldn't make it past first round. You don't get to quarter-finals just because.
 
EWS
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:04 am

Maybe slightly off-topic..

Did they ever find Sol Cambell?

Lew
 
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 35):
I would hardly make the WC a life or death matter

I'm glad to hear that.  Wink
 
Derico
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RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
I'm glad to hear that.

Yes, but you also then agree that ignorant people are not good for society, since you are not disputing my statement.

People in a dominant language don't need to learn any other language, thus they don't have to learn about other cultures and ways of thinking and comunicating, thus remain ignorant and bliss about anything outside their 'language realm'. It makes the world a more dangerous place.

We don't need laws in non-essential places that further accentuate and encourage this trend.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 35):
That is a life and death matter. It's very different. I would hardly make the WC a life or death matter, thus why I make it an issue here and not in the situation regarding air traffic control.

tell that to the families of fans who get stabbed to death by opposing fans because of what happens on the pitch!

[Edited 2006-03-24 16:13:43]
 
Lindy
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 10:42 pm

RE: Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 3):
He was by far the greatest ever football referee.

You are wrong. The greatest ever football referee was my father  Smile

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