AerospaceFan
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Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:28 pm

Illegal aliens should be deported. That's my gut feeling. However, there is an argument that illegals shouldn't be deported, but rather legalized. What is wrong with this argument?

There are plenty of things that were once illegal, but are now legal. Possession of alcohol, traditionally legal, was once illegal under Prohibition, but has long since again become legal.

Further, there are things that are illegal, and for which punishment remains prescribed, and yet for which a form of legalization is accepted. For example, in some states, a prior criminal offense can be wiped off the record as though it never existed.

What is it about immigration that makes legalization of it wrong, immoral, or unique?

Here are some possible answers:

1. Threats to sovereignty. The influx of illegals amounts to an invasion that undermines the ability of the United States to control its own destiny.

2. Threats to our culture. Many illegals refuse to or are unable to assimilate.

3. Innate unfairness. Why should illegals jump the line when legal immigrants have to wait years to come to this country?

4. Devaluation of U.S. citizenship. Citizenship means less when anyone can come here without invitation and become legalized. (Contra: Is this really an argument against legalization? I believe that this argument runs up against the idea that it is open to society to forgive instances of past illegality on the part of those already here without giving up the right to bar future instances by different individuals who remain outside our country.)

5. Climate of illegality. Countenancing the illegal act of violating our borders legitimizes wholesale illegality, and legalization of this illegal act opens the door to anarchy, even though the government sometimes does offer forms of amnesty to its own citizens (e.g., tax amnesty).

6. Magnitude of crime. While certain crimes are deemed worthy of forgiveness, such forgiveness is given by due authority (e.g., the courts). Authority has never deemed violation of our border laws of such little magnitude as to warrant forgiveness.

7. Immorality of net drain on resources. Illegals take far more than they contribute to our society.

8. Imposition of "slave wages". Businesses that employ illegals immorally exploit the cheap labor they provide and gravely undermine U.S. standards of living.

What is your opinion on this matter? Please elaborate. Thank you in advance.

[Edited 2006-03-23 11:59:03]
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:01 pm

I was unable to include a ninth consideration before the time for editing the above message expired:

9. Failure of past amnesties. We know from experience that past amnesties merely served as invitations for other waves of illegals.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Illegal aliens should be deported. That's my gut feeling. However, there is an argument that illegals shouldn't be deported, but rather legalized. What is wrong with this argument?

Then what's the purpose of having immigration laws? A country has the right to control who comes into the country. Right now the enforcement of our immigration laws is a joke. The laws serve to keep law abiding people out and serves as nothing more than an inconvenience to those who are willing to break them.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
Then what's the purpose of having immigration laws? A country has the right to control who comes into the country. Right now the enforcement of our immigration laws is a joke. The laws serve to keep law abiding people out and serves as nothing more than an inconvenience to those who are willing to break them.

This is the comparable to the highway speed law that most people have broken. Who among us hasn't exceeded the posted limit? And yet the law does exist.

Further, the above example supports a previous point -- that individuals often ask for amnesty in the form of leniency for themselves in a non-immigration context. Most people, upon being apprehended by an officer on the highway, would not hesitate to offer an excuse or welcome a warning in lieu of a ticket. If so, why shouldn't illegals lobby for legalization? And if they can lobby, why shouldn't their cause be granted?
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:17 am

It's illegal. Period. Kick them out and invite them back the legal way, like many other people.

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AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4):
It's illegal. Period. Kick them out and invite them back the legal way, like many other people.

I agree. But I would like to be absolutely confident about the reasons I'm kicking thme out.

Personally, I think that illegals should be immediately deported, but obviously a lot of Republicans and most Democrats seem to disagree. Most other Americans, in fact, seem to disagree.

Further, even absent deportation, the Bush Administration and most Democrats seem to support some kind of amnesty for illegals. I want to explore the best way to counter their arguments.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4):
It's illegal. Period. Kick them out and invite them back the legal way, like many other people.

I agree. But I would like to be absolutely confident about the reasons I'm kicking thme out.

Here you go . . .

Scenario #1:

Did you enter this country legally?

Answer: Yes . . . .

Result: None.


Scenario #2:

Did you enter this country illegally?

Answer: Yes . . .

Result: Bye Bye on the first thing smokin . . . period, dot, end, next?

No discussion, no mitigation, no gawddamn nuthin. Bye Bye.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
No discussion, no mitigation, no gawddamn nuthin. Bye Bye.

I agree that this seems a very inviting approach to people like you and me.

But why, then, do so many American seem to resist just deporting these guys?

Also, there are maybe twenty million illegals in this country. Is it physically possible to track them all down and kick them out?

Let's remember, as well, that many of them have children in this country, and if born here, such children are U.S. citizens regardless of the illegality of their parents.

[Edited 2006-03-23 17:52:46]
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
But why, then, do so many American seem to resist just deporting these guys?

Simple Answer again: $$$$$$$

This is not rocket science Aero . . . .

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Let's remember, as well, that many of them have children in this country, and if born here, such children are U.S. citizens regardless of the illegality of their parents.

And this has what to do with the parents that are illegal immigrants?
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
And this has what to do with the parents that are illegal immigrants?

Where do we keep the kids? Do we deport them, too? They're U.S. citizens.

I agree with you about the money aspect -- money (profit) does motivate a lot of this support for illegals. And so do some of the Democrats' need for a disenfranchised underclass to help them out during elections.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Here you go . . .

Exactly. I worked my way in here, why should they get off easier?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
But why, then, do so many American seem to resist just deporting these guys?

Because they want their pools cleaned and lawns mowed while they sit on their fat, lazy asses and watch tv and eat tofu burgers....
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
Because they want their pools cleaned and lawns mowed while they sit on their fat, lazy asses and watch tv and eat tofu burgers....

That's very sad. Are we willing to let our culture go to pot (with all the lack of assimilation, quasi-separatism, etc.), and our social expenses skyrocket, just for a cheap gardener?

Did gardens go ungardened before slave-like illegal labor? I would hope that most Americans would realize that they did not.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):
That's very sad. Are we willing to let our culture go to pot (with all the lack of assimilation, quasi-separatism, etc.), and our social expenses skyrocket, just for a cheap gardener?

But they don't. As long as they can pay someone $5/hr under the table to do all their dirty work, they won't change. Unfortunately.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):
Did gardens go ungardened before slave-like illegal labor? I would hope that most Americans would realize that they did not.

No, because people didn't have 500 TV channels, computers, etc.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:11 am

It's a tough call considering I have an illegal friend down in Miami (Agent Johnson from the FBI reading this will soon be calling me). However, I do believe that illegal aliens should not be legalized. Legal immigrants go through a lot to become residents and, most importantly, we pay taxes and are not exempt of a military draft (however one cannot enlist in the military voluntarily if you're not a citizen, at least I was told that).

So bottom line is illegal aliens should not be given amnesty.

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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Let's remember, as well, that many of them have children in this country, and if born here, such children are U.S. citizens regardless of the illegality of their parents.

I thought they had already passed a law that a son of illegal immigrants born in the US would not be a US Citizen. Or is the law about to be passed? I know I heard something like that.

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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Komododx (Reply 13):
(however one cannot enlist in the military voluntarily if you're not a citizen, at least I was told that)

One only needs a green card valid long enough to cover the entire time you enlist for. Certain positions within the military require top secret clearance, however, and that is only given to citizens.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 15):
One only needs a green card valid long enough to cover the entire time you enlist for. Certain positions within the military require top secret clearance, however, and that is only given to citizens.

You sure? I went up to an Air Force recruiting office and the recruiter told me to come back when I was a Citizen.

In a way, I'm glad it worked that way.

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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Komododx (Reply 16):
You sure? I went up to an Air Force recruiting office and the recruiter told me to come back when I was a Citizen.

In a way, I'm glad it worked that way.

That doesnt sound right.

Here is the info from http://www.airforce.com/

Enlistment into the U.S. Air Force, by citizens of countries other than the United States is limited to those foreign nationals who are legally residing in the United States and possess an Immigrations and Naturalization Service Alien Registration Card (INS Form I-151/551 -- Commonly known as a "Green Card"). Applicants must be between 17 and 27; meet the mental, moral, and physical standards for enlistment; and must speak, read and write English fluently.

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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Komododx (Reply 16):
You sure? I went up to an Air Force recruiting office and the recruiter told me to come back when I was a Citizen.

He obviously didn't know what he was talking about, unless you said you were only interested in a certain job (which might have top secret requirements).
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
But why, then, do so many American seem to resist just deporting these guys?

As someone else said, its economics and politics. We piss of the %16 of the voters who are hispanic/latin etc if we enforce the law more.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Is it physically possible to track them all down and kick them out?

No will never happen.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):
Did gardens go ungardened before slave-like illegal labor?

Well no, but it was a different group of folks doing the work. It was blacks and asians.

The problem with this is that it is a law enforcement issue that is being handcuffed by politicians. No president has had the balls needed to really put the people and money it is going to take to secure our border especially the southern one. Another typical Bush hypocracy of doing his best to make us safe from terrorism, yet still we have a very porous border on all sides, Canada, Mexico and the oceans. Very little is being done, a finger nail file will shut down an airport for the afternoon, but hundreds if not thousands of people cross the border every day. You have to guard the borders and also put some real hurting on folks who are hiring the illegals.
 
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
This is the comparable to the highway speed law that most people have broken. Who among us hasn't exceeded the posted limit? And yet the law does exist.

I would assume that warnings issued in the hopes that it will influence behavior (i.e. reduce speeding). I don't believe that anyone would argue that a catch and release program with respect to illegal aliens in any way reduces illegal immigration. In fact, I would argue that it increases it.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:37 am

I've had the opportunity to further reflect about this issue in the last few days, and -- thanks, ironically, in part to the pro-illegal protests in the last two days -- I have reached the following conclusion:

We cannot allow hand-wringing to affect our future, and our children's future.

Legislation that would make illegal immigration a felony, and not merely a misdemeanor, should be passed. Furthermore, such legislation should be enforced and police chiefs or other authorities who do not enforce them should be prosecuted.

Bush's "guest worker" program should be rejected, and we should do what we can to permanently deport those illegals who cannot demonstrate extraordinary hardship, such as their status as parents of young children who are U.S. citizens.

Further, we should require those who do qualify for the extraordinary hardship exception to register, leave this country with their children or leave them with citizen relatives, and re-apply for entry (not citizenship) with special, favorable consideration for their family status. After entry, they would qualify for further special consideration for legalization.

In the meantime, we should pass proposed legislation depriving children of illegals automatic status as U.S. citizens.

Finally, we ensure that our border laws are enforced, using military means if necessary.

Enough is enough.

[Edited 2006-03-26 16:45:17]
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
This is the comparable to the highway speed law that most people have broken. Who among us hasn't exceeded the posted limit? And yet the law does exist.

Bad example. Speed limits are often set too low in order to allow local communities to make money on speeding tickets. Especially where it's 55 mph on straight interstate highways in cars that are designed to be stable at 150 mph. Stupid laws will frequently be ignored.

But the right of the USA to know who is crossing its border is not a stupid law. That is a law that must be followed without fail.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
Where do we keep the kids? Do we deport them, too? They're U.S. citizens.

That is a big problem. The only thing I can think of is a constitutional amendment to say that the US birthright is invalid if the parents are not in the country legally.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):
Are we willing to let our culture go to pot (with all the lack of assimilation, quasi-separatism, etc.), and our social expenses skyrocket, just for a cheap gardener?

That just about describes it. You also have a class of politicians who want to exploit the votes of a large class of poor immigrants.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:56 pm

I'm glad we agree, Cfalk.

A country that allows invaders to come in and claim the "right" to stay because they're "hard workers" and "love this country" (even though their first act in this country is to break our law by being here illegally) is a weak country subject to the selfish whims of foreign governments.

Nor is the argument from "love of America" persuasive. If they love us so much, they should love our laws, as well. You cannot love a country only for its economic opportunity and, in defiance of the majority's desires, expect -- let alone demand -- to be treated as a citizen because of it. A country is more than a place to make money. A country that is used for economic benefit is not loved; rather, it is exploited.

America is showing weakness when it fails to deport illegals. Mexico, which demands that the U.S. accept its illegals, itself promptly and ruthlessly deports its own illegals, mostly from its southern border. Mexico, ironically, is a stronger country in this regard than the United States.

I find Bush's appeasement of the Mexican government by pushing for guest workers galling enough. If the pro-illegal alien lobby had its way, the government would grant anmesty and institute an open border between the U.S. and Mexico.

Further, when a border between two countries disappears, and one decides that its citizens can freely move into the other regardless of what the citizens of the other think, what does that remind you of?

Yes: As people like Lou Dobbs of CNN would agree, an invasion.

And to say that America is a nation of immigrants is to misstate the nature of immigration. Immigration was never meant as a means by which one nation demanded that another accept those it could not handle. Did Ireland demand that America accept illegal Irish immigrants? Did Italy? In fact, in recent times, only Mexico has prominently and publicly demanded that a so-called "humane" policy amounting to open borders be instituted as official U.S. law. This is arrogant presumption, it seems to me, for no country should be able to tell America what America's own border enforcement requirements should be.

Finally, the politics of ethnic solidarity that L.A. Mayor Villagarosa is playing merely plays into the worst fears of those who fear that among some Hispanics, skin color is more important than law, and that economic benefits are more important than democratic rule. There are 20 million illegals in this country, and yet every recent poll indicates that the majority of Californians and Americans favor increased restrictions on illegal immigration.

Should the demands of 20 million illegals triumph over the wishes of 280 million citizens? One should hope not.

[Edited 2006-03-27 07:08:14]
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
3. Innate unfairness. Why should illegals jump the line when legal immigrants have to wait years to come to this country?

The number of immigrants who are able to cross the border legally from Mexico and the rest of Latin America are quite small in comparison to the number of people who need to get across the border to help their families. The only way that can be solved is by making a guest worker program and stop being so snobbish towards people trying to make a different life.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
7. Immorality of net drain on resources. Illegals take far more than they contribute to our society.

MOst would be happy to pay taxes if they were asked to, but if they just volunteered to pay taxes, they would be deported, so that answers everyones questions about "why don't they pay taxes". And, even if they did pay taxes, most don't make enough to even have to pay income tax as they are cheated out of true wages.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
8. Imposition of "slave wages". Businesses that employ illegals immorally exploit the cheap labor they provide and gravely undermine U.S. standards of living.

That wouldn't be the case if we had a guest worker program....

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
But why, then, do so many American seem to resist just deporting these guys?



Quoting Komododx (Reply 13):
However, I do believe that illegal aliens should not be legalized. Legal immigrants go through a lot to become residents and, most importantly, we pay taxes and are not exempt of a military draft (however one cannot enlist in the military voluntarily if you're not a citizen, at least I was told that).

It is almost impossible for an immigrant from a country such as Guatemala to come here legally as opposed to someone from Ireland, but it is still difficult, but not impossible.

What people need to understand is that these people coming across the border are doing it because they have no choice. They are real people, and if a better life can be achieved by going north, would you stop because a wall was in your way? Would you not want to help your family? People who seem to be so heartless towards them definetly need a reality check.
 
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
The number of immigrants who are able to cross the border legally from Mexico and the rest of Latin America are quite small in comparison to the number of people who need to get across the border to help their families. The only way that can be solved is by making a guest worker program and stop being so snobbish towards people trying to make a different life.

Snobbish? How about protective of our way of life? Who decides what is snobbish and what is not? Certainly not the people who insist on coming here despite the desires of U.S. citizens. This argument does not fly, because it pretends that the rights of U.S. citizens are less than those of illegals. If American citizens don't have the right to resist the illegal immigration of those whom American citizens simply don't want, then what is the meaning of "right"?

Dude, where's my country, and why do all these foreigners have rights that I don't?

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
What people need to understand is that these people coming across the border are doing it because they have no choice.

Please see above.

I do think, upon further reflection, that it may be impossible to deport those illegals with U.S.-born children; this is a practical consideration. If so, they should be at least fined heavily, made to register, and given a path to citizenship that will take no less than ten years. In the meantime, they must pay U.S. taxes.

And it does seem that deporting even those without U.S.-born children is a harsh penalty. Perhaps they, too, should be required to register and be put onto a path to citizenship that will take a decade or more.

Perhaps deportation should be an option for those illegal who have committed further offenses, either on or off any such path.

I've vacillated a bit on the deportation issue, because it is, indeed, a difficult one.

Insofar as the solution, I've thought about requiring illegals with U.S.-born children to leave the country upon the achievement of adult status on the part of the youngest of their children, but all this would do is encourage them to produce more and more children at more and more advanced ages to stave off the day they must depart.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
That just about describes it. You also have a class of politicians who want to exploit the votes of a large class of poor immigrants.

Illegals can't vote, but naturalized citizens can. I guess they don't care that they went though hoops to get where they are at.

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
The only way that can be solved is by making a guest worker program and stop being so snobbish towards people trying to make a different life.

Oh please....since when is following the laws snobbish?

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
And, even if they did pay taxes, most don't make enough to even have to pay income tax as they are cheated out of true wages.

So an American citizen working for minimum wages should be exempt from taxes as well? (Yes, I know you get it all back next year)

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
That wouldn't be the case if we had a guest worker program....

So why not just apply for a Visa in the first place then ,rather than have the first thing you do in the US is commit a crime? Yeah, that's right...a CRIME

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
And it does seem that deporting even those without U.S.-born children is a harsh penalty

Nope, come here illegally = Move back to start, lose your turn.
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4):
It's illegal. Period. Kick them out and invite them back the legal way, like many other people.

Thats too easy and somewhat chauvinistic. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have no hope whatsoever other than trying to get a small peace of the big cake in the "western world". Of cause the rich states would crash if everyone from the so-called Third World would be openly invited to come. I don´t have a recipe how to deal with it, but to over-simplify and just "kick them out" certainly is the wrong way.
To try a little bit and think about how it would be if you "were in their shoes" surely helps. Although I´m a native German I know first hand what it means to deal with the state´s "foreigner´s office" clerks. I can be a torture. There are some people among them who would certainly have made a career in 1933-1945 Germany as well. Wish we could send these guys out of the country...
 
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting NA (Reply 27):
To try a little bit and think about how it would be if you "were in their shoes" surely helps.

Hmm, let me see. I am a Green Card holder, so I guess that does put me in their shoes. Can't follow the laws, then stay wherever you are at. If it is really SO bad where you're from, apply on base of asylum. Don't just break laws in order to get here.

And I agree with the paper pushers. Don't know about the Germans, but they are certainly very by the letter of the book here. Go through forms with a magnifying glass to find a mistake...

[Edited 2006-03-27 18:06:22]
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:22 am

While I support enforcement of our laws, I believe that the economic impact of this policy decision is being largely ignored. As is the case with the trade deficit, the illegal immigration situation creates a lot of positives that most if not all Americans benefit from.

But instead of citing numbers back and forth, ask yourself this. Are you willing to pay more for just about everything you buy in order to solve the problem? The 99 cent cheeseburger only exists because the lettuce and tomato on it are picked using illegal immigrant labor? If the costs went up, the selling price would go up as well. How much? I don't know, but let's say that we're taking 20 cents.

Ditto for housing. Like everything else in the world, the price is determined by the supply and the demand for the product. In housing construction, the price of labor is determined by the supply of labor (skewed by the presence of illegals) and the demand for labor. If we contracted the supply by making it impossible for illegals to work, the cost of labor and therefore the cost of a house would go up. Would you be willing to pay 10-20% more for a house to ensure that only legal workers built it?

And we can cite example after example where this applies.

At the end of the day, are you willing to accept 5%, 10%, 15% or 20% inflation in order to solve the illegal immigration problem? If the answer is no, then you're just being hypocritical.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 4):
It's illegal. Period. Kick them out and invite them back the legal way, like many other people.

How exactly do you plan to move 11 million people out of the country and backfill their jobs?

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 12):
But they don't. As long as they can pay someone $5/hr under the table to do all their dirty work, they won't change. Unfortunately.

That savings gets passed onto you. When the President of Mexico remarked that Latinos do work that blacks wouldn't even do, he wasn't far off the mark. How do you kick the illegals out and keep the economy going?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):
How exactly do you plan to move 11 million people out of the country and backfill their jobs?

I didn't say it would be easy.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
The 99 cent cheeseburger only exists because the lettuce and tomato on it are picked using illegal immigrant labor? If the costs went up, the selling price would go up as well. How much? I don't know, but let's say that we're taking 20 cents.

Yes I would. I grew up with $2-3 cheeseburgers in Norway. Yes our wages are higher, but so is our standard of living.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):
That savings gets passed onto you. When the President of Mexico remarked that Latinos do work that blacks wouldn't even do, he wasn't far off the mark. How do you kick the illegals out and keep the economy going?

Reduce unemployment benefits. If somebody is truely willing to work, they will pick lettuce or tomatoes. People are just too damn lazy.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:20 am

These...

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
Yes I would. I grew up with $2-3 cheeseburgers in Norway. Yes our wages are higher, but so is our standard of living.



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
Reduce unemployment benefits. If somebody is truely willing to work, they will pick lettuce or tomatoes. People are just too damn lazy.

...don't square with each other. The reason the standard of living is so high in Norway is in part due to the huge state sponsored benefits, high cost of living, and high taxes.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Pope
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
Yes I would. I grew up with $2-3 cheeseburgers in Norway. Yes our wages are higher, but so is our standard of living.

Great now convince at least 100 million more Americans of that and we can begin to talk.

But unfortunately, Americans vote with their wallets and their votes are cast on a daily basis to support current consumption over future spending, continued importation of low cost goods at the expense of the domestic manufacturing base and low cost labor supplied by illegal immigrants.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:11 am

Some things to ponder:

Ok let say they Kick out ALL inmigrants (far east, Latinos, Europeans, and African) Id put the number at 25 to 30 million guys. Currently MOST of them ARE WORKING.

Deport them.....then try to fill the void, and pay accordingly... heck even GM and Ford are retiring people by the ton because they cannot meet labor benefts....

Change the names off all spanish streets and cities and towns...

you will be surprised at the cost of food, housing, maintenance and such...

Its a very complex problem that has gone too far because both countries benefit $$$$$ from it....it will be a BAD compromise ...

Best regards
TRB
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mham001
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
The number of immigrants who are able to cross the border legally from Mexico and the rest of Latin America are quite small in comparison to the number of people who need to get across the border to help their families. The only way that can be solved is by making a guest worker program and stop being so snobbish towards people trying to make a different life.

We have no moral obligation to the foriegn families the illegals are trying to support back home. $20 BILLION dollars was shiped to Mexico last year through remittances. I don't have the numbers, but they are similar in scope for other countries as well. This is money that is no longer in circulation here being taxed. This is something usually forgotten when considering the costs to society for our lazy desires for cheap labor. We, and they, have become mutually dependant.
 
YeahitsK
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):
Legislation that would make illegal immigration a felony, and not merely a misdemeanor, should be passed. Furthermore, such legislation should be enforced and police chiefs or other authorities who do not enforce them should be prosecuted

Define "enforced." Do we want the police to actually protect us from crime because I don't think they'll be available if they're spending all their time chasing these people. Do you honestly believe it can be enforced? Then what? It's a felony charge right, so that means time in court and then prison. What will that cost us as a society? When will the courts have time for serious criminals? You said you want them deported, period. So they get busted, charged with a felony, then sent home without facing trial? What precedent does this set for people charged with actual, serious felonies?
AerospaceFan, I know you have strong feelings on this issue (as evidenced in both recent threads) and I respect them, but have you really thought this through? I don't think it's practical to sign this legislation or enforce it, this isn't the answer to this problem, although it may feel good.

[Edited 2006-03-27 22:43:49]
Let's play some Pitch...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 36):
Do we want the police to actually protect us from crime because I don't think they'll be available if they're spending all their time chasing these people

Aren't illegal aliens less likely to commit crimes since they came to the US precisely to avoid going back to their country of origin?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 36):
AerospaceFan, I know you have strong feelings on this issue (as evidenced in both recent threads) and I respect them, but have you really thought this through? I don't think it's practical to sign this legislation or enforce it, this isn't the answer to this problem, although it may feel good

Thank you very much for your message, which I think is well-written and considerate.

You are quite right -- some of my thoughts on this are still rather inchoate and are subject to change.

The questions you ask are interesting and deserve further thought. I will therefore consider them accordingly. Thank you for your kind response.
What's fair is fair.
 
YeahitsK
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
Aren't illegal aliens less likely to commit crimes since they came to the US precisely to avoid going back to their country of origin?

If they're smart, that's pretty much the game plan once they get on this side of the border- lay low and don't attract attention.
Let's play some Pitch...
 
airbus3801
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
Snobbish? How about protective of our way of life? Who decides what is snobbish and what is not? Certainly not the people who insist on coming here despite the desires of U.S. citizens. This argument does not fly, because it pretends that the rights of U.S. citizens are less than those of illegals. If American citizens don't have the right to resist the illegal immigration of those whom American citizens simply don't want, then what is the meaning of "right"?

It's being snobbish because you just don't like people trying to make a better life. Lets see you if you lived in Sonora Mexico in a shack. Let's see how you fend off!

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 26):
Oh please....since when is following the laws snobbish?

The laws A) need revisions and B) You are being snobbish right now by not even looking at it from their point of view.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 26):
So an American citizen working for minimum wages should be exempt from taxes as well? (Yes, I know you get it all back next year)

Below poverty line, I believe might be no taxes (beside maybe sales tax or something). Because they are cheated from true wages, they are below poverty line.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 26):
So why not just apply for a Visa in the first place then ,rather than have the first thing you do in the US is commit a crime? Yeah, that's right...a CRIME

Excuse me but did you read anything I said before replying. They can't get a VISA. It's not just like you can get up in a line and get one. Have you broken the speed limit ? OH MY, that's right.... it's a CRIME! If it's to better the life of their family, they are going to break the law and don't even pretend like you wouldn't even do the same.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 26):
Nope, come here illegally = Move back to start, lose your turn.

And what do you suggest we do with their children.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 35):
We have no moral obligation to the foriegn families the illegals are trying to support back home

We seem to have plenty moral obligations to export democracy to nations that don't want it, why not a moral obligation to people right next door who need our help!
 
joness0154
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 40):
Excuse me but did you read anything I said before replying. They can't get a VISA. It's not just like you can get up in a line and get one. Have you broken the speed limit ? OH MY, that's right.... it's a CRIME! If it's to better the life of their family, they are going to break the law and don't even pretend like you wouldn't even do the same.

Well, looks like i'm gonna go head down the street and rob my local bank. I'm doing it to better my life and pay off my 100k+ in student loans.

Are you gonna support me?
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
airbus3801
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 41):
Well, looks like i'm gonna go head down the street and rob my local bank. I'm doing it to better my life and pay off my 100k+ in student loans.

It's your fault you got the student loans. These people don't have a choice of what life they were put into, they don't even have a chance. Labelling them as this awful criminals is absolutely ridiculous as they are only trying to better their lives. I don't think this nation which has been founded upon immigrants should be so vile towards those immigrants coming today. That throws everything out the window that this country was built upon.
 
joness0154
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 42):
It's your fault you got the student loans. These people don't have a choice of what life they were put into, they don't even have a chance. Labelling them as this awful criminals is absolutely ridiculous as they are only trying to better their lives. I don't think this nation which has been founded upon immigrants should be so vile towards those immigrants coming today. That throws everything out the window that this country was built upon.

But i'm just trying to better my life by getting a college education. Your argument has more holes than swiss cheese. The people coming here illegally aren't immigrants, they're criminal and illegal aliens. The people here legally are immigrants.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
airbus3801
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 43):
But i'm just trying to better my life by getting a college education. Your argument has more holes than swiss cheese. The people coming here illegally aren't immigrants, they're criminal and illegal aliens. The people here legally are immigrants.

A) You weren't born into poverty living off the dump B) According to my dictionary, an immigrant is someone who has come to a country and settled there, C) At least I care about those next door rather then pretending all is well in the world while I seat on my plot of land in my master planned community D) You are in no way at all similar to an impoverished family living in Honduras and have no right what so ever to compare your student loans to their life struggles.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 44):
A) You weren't born into poverty living off the dump B) According to my dictionary, an immigrant is someone who has come to a country and settled there, C) At least I care about those next door rather then pretending all is well in the world while I seat on my plot of land in my master planned community D) You are in no way at all similar to an impoverished family living in Honduras and have no right what so ever to compare your student loans to their life struggles.

I think that there is an implicit Marxism in the pro-illegal argument -- that economics determines and justifies just about everything. This disturbs me somewhat, particularly since Bush and his supporters buy it the same way that some on the religious left (and even right) do, as well.

Just because you're born in poverty doesn't mean you have an automatic right to break laws in order to achieve what you desire. And hard work may produce many things, but it doesn't excuse law-breaking.

If I invite someone over to my house for a party, and she helps me clean up the kitchen afterward, does this mean that she gets to stay in my house forever? If not, then don't see the logic in accepting the pro-illegal alien argument that illegals are entitled to stay in America, either.

[Edited 2006-03-28 07:41:05]
What's fair is fair.
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:42 pm

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 44):
A) You weren't born into poverty living off the dump B) According to my dictionary, an immigrant is someone who has come to a country and settled there, C) At least I care about those next door rather then pretending all is well in the world while I seat on my plot of land in my master planned community D) You are in no way at all similar to an impoverished family living in Honduras and have no right what so ever to compare your student loans to their life struggles.

You defending these people and saying they have as much right to be here as anyone else is a direct slap in the face to everyone that is or has come to this county legaly. This is not the same as speeding or anything close to that. The first action these illegal aliens perform in this country is breaking the law. What are we as a country with out laws, or the ability to enforce them?
 
airbus3801
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 45):
Just because you're born in poverty doesn't mean you have an automatic right to break laws in order to achieve what you desire. And hard work may produce many things, but it doesn't excuse law-breaking.

Until the laws are changed, I am going to stand by those who are the hard workers doing the jobs we don't want to. It's our own fault if we refuse to help them.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 45):
If I invite someone over to my house for a party, and she helps me clean up the kitchen afterward, does this mean that she gets to stay in my house forever? If not, then don't see the logic in accepting the pro-illegal alien argument that illegals are entitled to stay in America, either.

Once again, your comparisons quite surprise me. The life of a family is not anyway similiar to your friend cleaning up, though at least that person has compassion unlike you seemingly.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 47):
Once again, your comparisons quite surprise me. The life of a family is not anyway similiar to your friend cleaning up, though at least that person has compassion unlike you seemingly.

I strongly disagree. America is our house. We control the borders, and we can tell trespassers to leave.

Certainly we will not be dictated to by foreigners in our own house -- our own country.
What's fair is fair.
 
aircraft
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RE: Why Is Legalization Of Illegal Aliens Wrong?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Illegal aliens should be deported. That's my gut feeling. However, there is an argument that illegals shouldn't be deported, but rather legalized. What is wrong with this argument?

It's often difficult to deport aliens. For one thing, their space ships are way too fast for any of our jets or missiles to shoot them down. Due to their advanced technology, they can do a lot more than we can. Sure, they f-ck up and crash every 50 years or so, but they're pretty good about covering their tracks.

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