757MDE
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Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:58 am

Hello:

I've just been wondering those days how do ships work, like how do they navigate, what instruments do they have on board, where does a ship captain train, what are the licences, the most common ship brands and well... everything you could tell me about it.

Thanks!
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cosec59
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
everything you could tell me about it.

Just "google" it  Yeah sure
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757MDE
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:06 am

Duh, excellent answer.
I'm already on google but wanted to know if any anetter had any insight.
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aloges
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
the most common ship brands

Pardon?

Ships are built to the specification of the client, even if they're parts of a series. As for operators, things are fairly complicated since many freight ships are owned by one company, operated by another one for yet another company.
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757MDE
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:17 am

Yes yes, I mean. In Aviation we got Airbus and Boeing to set an example, isn't there any kind of analog in the Naval industry?
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dba4u
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:24 am

It's a pretty funny thing.

In aviation you have, let's say Airbus offering the A319. The airlines have to take it or look for an alternative (Boeings 737-700 for example). In naval business the "airlines" aka shipping companies say "we want to have a A319!" And the manufacturers are competing against each other who get's the business of building the ship.
 
desertjets
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:24 am

There are a decent number of major shipbuilders out there, though it seems for much of the heavy frieght stuff it is coming mostly from Asia these days. The state of the US shipbuilding industry, if you ask me, is pretty sad. With only 5 or 6 major yards doing work for just the United States Navy.

While there maybe standard designs out there, they are largely built to spec. For example a ship that will operate routes that need to transit the Panama canal will be markedly different than a ship that does the Los Angeles/Long Beach to Shanghai run. Even with a similar carrying capacity. The shipping industry is still very specialized as the demands and restraints of ports and operating environments call for different designs.
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757MDE
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Dba4U (Reply 5):
And the manufacturers are competing against each other who get's the business of building the ship.



Quoting DesertJets (Reply 6):
There are a decent number of major shipbuilders out there

Thanks to both of you, I get it now.
Any names of the big ones?
I remember watching a documental about some company in Denmark and also Hyundai.
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dba4u
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:37 am

As a "Hamburger" two come into my mind...

"Blohm & Voss" - They are building mostly yachts and naval ships, but are doing a lot of maintenance work (A few weeks ago we had Queen Mary II @ Blohm & Voss in HAM)
"Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG - HDW" in Kiel. The most important german shipbuilder. During the last years the situation of german shipyards got pretty bad due to cheap ships offered by chinese and taiwanese shipyards.
Nevertheless HDW is still pretty big and important. Check out their website for more info.
 
757MDE
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:40 am

Thanks again.
Anything about navigation?
In Aviation they use VORs, NDBs, Aiways, Fixes, FMS, SIDs, STARs and whatnot... what do they use in the ships?
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dl021
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
I've just been wondering those days how do ships work, like how do they navigate, what instruments do they have on board, where does a ship captain train, what are the licences, the most common ship brands and well... everything you could tell me about it.

One at a time.....

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
how do ships work,

Ships float because they are made from metallic shells that hold the water out (called displacement) and the air inside the ships create bouyancy. They are propelled by:
1. Internal mechanized motors that drive either screws or paddles, or create water impellers (water jets), to propel the vessel forward or in reverse.
2. Sails which catch the wind and they pull the ship because they are attached to masts which are part of the ship. Sort of like a kite.
3. Oars which are either attached to the vessel or carried by hand. Oars are an excellent example of Newtonian physics proving that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Try it sometime.

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
like how do they navigate,

Ships are navigated by humans who use three basic tool sets plus math and charts showing depth, latitude, longitude, land formations, obstacles and tide.
The three sets of tools are:
1. Eyeballs. Man has navigated by visual cueing since the first guy grabbed ahold of a treetrunk in a river into which he fell and looked for shore to try and get back. Early mariners never left sight of shore because that's how they knew where they were. If they left sight of shore they invariably became lost until they either sank or lucked back into shore due to tides.

2. Sextant and compass. As shipping grew more and more important and longer distances were desired navigation as a science grew and sailors found that the stars were good guides. So they tracked the movements of the stars and used them as navigation tools (we still do today). Sextants were and are used to measure the elevation of the star off the horizon to establish it's position relative to where you are, and then gives you a point of reference which, in conjunction with other points of reference gives the mariner their position using charts which are constantly updated. When manually calculating position navigators must use algebra, geometry, trigonometry and calculus. It's labor intensive, and requires accuracy, but it works and brought us all the way to the latter part of the 20th century. This system is still taught today, although it has become a backup system due to the emergence of truly reliable electronics and other nav systems.

3. Electronic navigation. The emergence of radio beacons as navigation tools greatly enhanced safety and ease of navigation. This was followed by Loran, which was a shore based radio system that broadcast their position to computerized systems which triangulated these signals into positions for accurate navigation. The limitation was line of sight transmissions which meant that navigators still needed to use star charts and sextants to make their position clear when out on open ocean too far from a signal. The latest system is of course GPS which has made everything else redundant, and is accessible pretty much anywhere. It works like Loran but is in near-Earth orbit and any vessel can use it with relatively inexpensive equipment. I've got a handheld Magellan GPS system and it's the bomb!

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
what instruments do they have on board,

They have multitudes of instruments on board. Usually a cruise ship has several bands aboard and they generally will have pianos, guitars, electronic keyboards, drums, bass guitars, saxophones, trumpets....wow...there's alot of instruments.

Now...the vessel itself has plenty of instrumentation to tell the operators how the equipment is working as well as where they are. Imagine a very well equipped automobile that has a diagnostic computer and can tell the driver if the doors are open, how much fuel is left, how fast they are going, what the oil pressure is, how hot it is, etc. Ships today have the same thing, plus radar and radios. Military vessels have even more than civilian.

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
where does a ship captain train,

Usually at a merchant marine or naval academy, followed by intensive training for many years as an apprentice then lower ranking officer prior to receiving their coast guard/government certificates necessary for a vessel under their command to be insured. There are specific schools they can attend to develop and hone their skills (for instance there is a tanker school in France where the captains drive small versions of their vessels in a large pool to refine their helmsmanship...and there are plenty of computerized simulators these days, including one in Tampa, FL).

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
what are the licences

Most nations have Coast Guard or Admiralty licensing that meets Internationally agreed upon standards, which are enforced by governments and by Lloyds of London (the pre-eminent vessel insuror). The US license for a vessel captain has several grades, and tops with master of any vessel in any seas or something like that.

Quoting 757MDE (Thread starter):
the most common ship brands

Well, this is tough. "Brands" in this case is not really the same. Vessels from different naval architects can be built in the same yard. There are shipyards and shipwrights all over the world. Hyundai has grown significantly over the last 15 years, but they are certainly not pre-eminent to any degree. Every maritime nation works very hard to maintain a strategic shipbuilding capability, or to ally themselves with a nation that has this. In the US Northrop-Grumman owns a large percentage of naval shipbuilding yards, including Newport News, Avondale, and Pascagoula, but there are famous shipyards in France, Spain, the UK, Sweden, Germany, Italy and other places in Europe that have been operating for hundreds of years; not to mention the Asian states which have come on very strong over the last 30 years in shipbuilding (Japan has been building large vessels since the turn of the century when they learned modern techniques from the British).

Hope this helps.
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aloges
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 7):
Any names of the big ones?

Very difficult. There are many "big ones" because shipbuilding is highly specialised. So you have to look at the "big ones" for passenger ferries, for ULCCs (Ultra Large Crude oil Carriers), for cattle transporters and for everything else.

There is of course Hyundai Heavy Industries: http://www.hhi.co.kr/English/shipbuilding/default.html who build so many of the world's large freight ships it's hard to follow.

Then we have specialised shipyards that focus on, say, cruise ships. One example is Meyer Werft in Papenburg, NW Germany: http://www.meyerwerft.de/?what=&id=-1&lang=e which is in an especially interesting position since it's rather far up the rather small river Ems. The Ems has been dredged, widened and whatnot so as to allow for larger and larger ships to be built and transferred via the river. Reason? The area desperately needs the jobs.

For yachts and a few other types of ships, you can check with Lürssen: http://www.lurssen.com/flash.html in Bremen, Northern Germany and a plethora of other companies.

Queen Mary II was built at Alstom's Chantiers de l'Atlantique: http://www.marine.alstom.com/home/Ab...Atlantique/39.EN.php?languageId=EN and is, as said above, maintained mostly (?) at Blohm & Voss in Hamburg.

Then there is Aker yards, formerly known as Kvaerner: http://www.akeryards.com/index.asp?s...bExpand=1000039&menuitemid=1000165 which is a Norwegian company owning yards in e.g. Norway, Finland, Germany, Romania. They build mostly ferries and cruise ships; IIRC a substantial part of Hurtigruten's fleet was built at yards now belonging to the Aker group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipyar...#Prominent_dockyards_and_shipyards
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757MDE
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:56 am

Thanks DL021 and Aloges, great insight.

I just have one last question, who makes the ship's engines?
what sort of competition is there? any as the one we do have in Aviation? (GE, PW, RR...etc)
what do they use for fuel (nuclear, coal, any special fuel)?

Thanks for everything!
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dl021
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 12):
I just have one last question, who makes the ship's engines?

Ships engines are made by different manufacturors. Most small to midsize vessels use diesel engines (some CODOG or combination diesel or gas) but the largest vessels still use steam and have boilers (with auxiliary diesels) and some of the makers are Sulzer, Daewoo, MAN, Onan, GE, Volvo and others design and/or manufacture steam, diesel and turbine engines for ships today. No vessels are manufactured (to my knowledge) with coal fired engines anymore so the fuel is either gas/JP or diesel fuel. The largest vessels still use fuel oil to fire their boilers (as steam driven engines are still the most efficient for the largest vessels).

The only civilian vessel ever to use nuclear propulsion was the NS Savannah, a US merchant vessel designed to be a showcase for civilian nuclear technology. It worked very well, but was very expensive and not economical for cargo use. It's a beautiful ship, though, and sitting in the James River mothball fleet denuded of it's reactors (it used to be at Patriots Point in SC next to the USS Yorktown CV-10).

Here is a website I think you'll like.

http://www.ship-technology.com/
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:41 am

[quote=DL021,reply=13]The only civilian vessel ever to use nuclear propulsion was the NS Savannah, a US merchant vessel designed to be a showcase for civilian nuclear technology. It worked very well, but was very expensive and not economical for cargo use. It's a beautiful ship, though, and sitting in the James River mothball fleet denuded of it's reactors (it used to be at Patriots Point in SC next to the USS Yorktown CV-10).

Here is a website I think you'll like.

http://www.ship-technology.com/[/quo
Ian,

don't forget the "Otto Hahn", a nuclear powered freighter, which was built as a demonstrator for civilian use of nuclear energy on commercial ships in the late 1960s, though later (after Chernobyl) they had problems getting the permissions to enter ports due to enviromentalist pressure. Interestingly the master of the Otto Hahn was the original Skipper of "Das Boot" (During WW2 he was a U-boat commander, under whom Lothar Guenter Buchheim did his tours, the journey on which the book and the movie "Das Boot" was based. Contrary to the novel the commander survived WW2 and became a merchant marine master later).

Then the Russians operate several nuclear powered ice breakers, e.g. the Lenin.

Jan
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dl021
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
Then the Russians operate several nuclear powered ice breakers, e.g. the Lenin.

I always thought those were navy vessels.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
don't forget the "Otto Hahn", a nuclear powered freighter, which was built as a demonstrator for civilian use of nuclear energy on commercial ships in the late 1960s, though later (after Chernobyl) they had problems getting the permissions to enter ports due to enviromentalist pressure.

Now, there's something new to me. I had no idea Germany built a nuclear freighter. Did it put to sea?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
Interestingly the master of the Otto Hahn was the original Skipper of "Das Boot" (During WW2 he was a U-boat commander, under whom Lothar Guenter Buchheim did his tours, the journey on which the book and the movie "Das Boot" was based. Contrary to the novel the commander survived WW2 and became a merchant marine master later).

You never cease to fascinate me with those details. Thats very interesting.
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aloges
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
Interestingly the master of the Otto Hahn was the original Skipper of "Das Boot" (During WW2 he was a U-boat commander, under whom Lothar Guenter Buchheim did his tours, the journey on which the book and the movie "Das Boot" was based. Contrary to the novel the commander survived WW2 and became a merchant marine master later).

Did you read the same "Geo" article I read? Big grin

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
Then the Russians operate several nuclear powered ice breakers, e.g. the Lenin.

I always thought those were navy vessels.

It's a bit difficult to classify those ice breakers that take tourists to the North Pole, most prominently the Yamal. Amazing thing, that, it even has some sort of underwater bubble jet that's used to direct air under the ice so as to lift and break it.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Now, there's something new to me. I had no idea Germany built a nuclear freighter. Did it put to sea?

Yes, but many ports understandably refused to let it in, it was so underused the crew made one of the freight rooms a basketball field. Its safety record was immaculate though, if I'm not mistaken.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 12):
I just have one last question, who makes the ship's engines?

As said above, there are several manufacturers such as MAN B&W: http://www.manbw.com/ Oddly enough, many of the world's largest propellers are built in the small town of Waren in the German state of Mecklenburg-Western Pommerania, where my grandfather lives: http://www.mmg-propeller.de/home2.html I got stuck driving behind a test truck for a planned transport of one of those beasts a few months ago, folks were using a steel frame the size of the propeller to check if the road needed to be altered. It was huge!
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L-188
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
It's a beautiful ship, though, and sitting in the James River mothball fleet denuded of it's reactors (it used to be at Patriots Point in SC next to the USS Yorktown CV-10).

I got to go on board it when it was at Partriots Point.

Why did they get rid of it?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Now, there's something new to me. I had no idea Germany built a nuclear freighter. Did it put to sea?

Yes, but many ports understandably refused to let it in, it was so underused the crew made one of the freight rooms a basketball field. Its safety record was immaculate though, if I'm not mistaken.

Got to admit that is a new one for me too.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 12):
just have one last question, who makes the ship's engines?
what sort of competition is there? any as the one we do have in Aviation? (GE, PW, RR...etc)

Pretty much just like the Aviation Engine expect with more choices.
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757MDE
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:37 pm

Good reading, thanks again for helping improve my naval ignorance!
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Sea Ships Stuff

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:01 pm

Here is some information about the Otto Hahn:

http://www.radiationworks.com/NSOttoHahn.htm

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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