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alberchico
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:45 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4851626.stm

If this happend here in New York , people would be calling for their heads.........
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ManuCH
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:47 pm

Didn't New York MTA workers do the same a few months ago?
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alberchico
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:11 pm

Yes and New Yorkers walked the cold winter streets muttering every possible obscenity at them
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mrniji
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
If this happend here in New York , people would be calling for their heads.........

You want participatory democracy or not? The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
NeilYYZ
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 2):
Yes and New Yorkers walked the cold winter streets muttering every possible obscenity at them

I was in New York during that strike, and yes, I did mutter obscenity's at them.
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pelican
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:20 pm

Well, the Brits strike today, too. And here in Germany we've also strikes for weeks, although not as big as in France.

pelican
 
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alberchico
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day.........
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ManuCH
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

If legitimate, yes. Unfortunately there are many abuses by lazy people who strike/protest/demonstrate just for the sake of it. That's where I don't agree.

I don't know how it is in this specific french case, because I don't know the details (I haven't actually read the law everyone is talking about, and it's hard to distinguish between garbage propaganda and real facts).

-Manuel
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
If legitimate, yes. Unfortunately there are many abuses by lazy people who strike/protest/demonstrate just for the sake of it. That's where I don't agree.

the new york transit one was mostly the union not wanting to wake up to the realities of the real world, and realizing how good they have it.......
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day.........

A human right is the upmost value to be respected in any state. So if the people feel they are maltreated through the legislative, executive or whatsoever, they are entitled to claim the right. HR are not what Alberchico says.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
If legitimate, yes. Unfortunately there are many abuses by lazy people who strike/protest/demonstrate just for the sake of it. That's where I don't agree.

You give a point I can agree with (at least you don't condemn it per se but have some reasoning)

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
I don't know how it is in this specific french case, because I don't know the details (I haven't actually read the law everyone is talking about, and it's hard to distinguish between garbage propaganda and real facts).

There were similar discussions in Germany. Though in a German context, I would back the government for an initiative (the law would make a lot of sense here), I do not want to speak for the French people. The strike though is an indicator for a majority (=Western democracy, majority rules minority  sarcastic  ) not willing to concede. So rather than condemning the people for going on the street, the government should wonder whether they are properly executing their mandate "of serving the people". Hence, I respect these actions in principle, but cannot give a profound input on the content. In other words: take the people and their objections seriously
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 9):
You give a point I can agree with (at least you don't condemn it per se but have some reasoning)

Yes, that's something I've learned quite recently. I used to condemn everything I superficially wouldn't like, but I figured that there must be a reason behind every action (well, almost). IMHO without knowing the full reasoning behind an action you can't condemn it. And medias are way too biased (in one way or the other) to be able to use their inputs to make an informed, objective judgment.

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 9):
A human right is the upmost value to be respected in any state. So if the people feel they are maltreated through the legislative, executive or whatsoever, they are entitled to claim the right. HR are not what Alberchico says.

what about people ignorant unions who don't understand economics and the laws of supply and demand and strike for purely selfish reasons???
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:13 am

Not everyone in France is on strike, just BTW - only the bone-idle government workers (jammy gits). Some of us have to keep working for a living.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Some of us have to keep working for a living.

Say's he playing around online. It's just not good enough sir!
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
only the bone-idle government workers (jammy gits). Some of us have to keep working for a living.

Exactly. Many white collar workers work even harder then blue collar workers but have no union to back them up......

Life is hard. Get used to it.....
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:16 am

They are striking because France is changing, or at least trying to change, the law where workers fresh out of college can't be fired. IIRC the new legislation gives the employer the ability to fire a new worker within 2 years if they are not doing their job as stated. I personally see no problem with this change as I think 2 years is quite a long probationary period for a new worker.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 11):
what about people ignorant unions who don't understand economics and the laws of supply and demand and strike for purely selfish reasons???

How do you know whether this is the case??

And do you "understand economics"? (How can you understand something 100 % which is debated by Millions of people? I do not understand many of those concepts - though my background from Uni is a such - because the materia is soooo complex, with all these millions oif variables that commingle, correlate, intercept and whatsoever)

Tomorrow you will tell us that the right to life should be stopped, because some gangsters need to be hanged. Day after, you will tell us to limit freedom of speech, because someone speaks publically against GWB or some of those other people of the GOP. So realize that the French people are acting in the frame of their constitution.

You should not jump into conclusions without being briefed at least a little about the situation, and you should not benchmark situations in accordance with what YOU believe is right. The people are intelligent enough and don't need anyone from the other side of the Atlantic to condemn their actions in an acrimonious manner.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 13):
Say's he playing around online. It's just not good enough sir!

Oi, scrounger - you could use a CPE and all, so they could fire your idle butt for no reason ! You and your Las Vegas jollies, you should be ashamed !

Besides - I only get paid enough to get me out of bed - anything like work is extra, and anyway what with my mandatory half-hourly hour-long coffee breaks and my legally mandated 2 hour lunch, there isn't time for anything else.

 Smile
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 16):
Tomorrow you will tell us that the right to life should be stopped, because some gangsters need to be hanged. Day after, you will tell us to limit freedom of speech, because someone speaks publically against GWB or some of those other people of the GOP.

So now I'm advocating a return to the Third Reich ???  Confused

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 16):
The people are intelligent enough and don't need anyone from the other side of the Atlantic to condemn their actions in an acrimonious manner.

If they have the right to strike then I have the right to sit there critizize it.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.

That's exactly what I suffered in New York during the strike and why I am pissed at the whole idea of strike. Oh not to mention that the NYC strike was ILLEGAL. Transport workers cannot go on strike. So they are all technically lawbreakers.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 18):
If they have the right to strike then I have the right to sit there critizize it.

Indeed you do. But sitting on your b**t and commenting does not give you a strong and profound argument, at least not in my eyes  Smile

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 18):
So now I'm advocating a return to the Third Reich ???

I never said that

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.

Excellent point! The right to demonstrate (and strike) is limited by the right to work.. needs to be balanced!
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 2):
Yes and New Yorkers walked the cold winter streets muttering every possible obscenity at them

Just as many (if not the majority) of us are doing here in France today.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
You want participatory democracy or not? The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

It is indeed an imporant right, yet I do have the same feeling as Alberchico expresses in the below quote:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day

I feel the same, but that's the public sector for you.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Some of us have to keep working for a living.

Indeed!

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 15):
I personally see no problem with this change as I think 2 years is quite a long probationary period for a new worker.

I totally agree with you DeltaGator. Unemployment is highest amongst the newly graduated from certain spectrums of the French thrid level education system, and many French employers are just to scared of trying out people totally lacking experience under current law as they may get stuck with them, thus I do not understand people's opposition to this... makes me think it's simply the lazy students who couldn't be bothered studying or working at all.
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alberchico
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
But sitting on your b**t

You won't get banned for saying the word BUTT  Smile

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
I never said that

You hinted that I advocated the death penalty and limits on free speech, which are signs of facism

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.

Excellent point! The right to demonstrate (and strike) is limited by the right to work.. needs to be balanced!

That's basically what I've been saying......
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mrniji
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 23):
You hinted that I advocated the death penalty and limits on free speech, which are signs of facism

This was a parable of mine to dissemble your in my eyes weak argument

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 23):
That's basically what I've been saying......

Then say it directly and explicitely without starting your statement with words of abuse  Wink  Smile
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
you could use a CPE and all

That sounds painful  worried 

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
You and your Las Vegas jollies, you should be ashamed !

That was 6 years ago! I was in Budapest at the weekend. I think you should get your half hourly hour long breaks increased so you don't confuse me with Superfly again. Sad
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 24):
Then say it directly and explicitely without starting your statement with words of abuse

When you've gone through a strike in the coldest month of the year, trust me you will not have any kind words left for unions  Wink

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 24):
This was a parable of mine to dissemble your in my eyes weak argument

Actually this was one of the most civilised threads that we've ever had about unions.
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sebolino
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 11):
what about people ignorant unions who don't understand economics and the laws of supply and demand and strike for purely selfish reasons???

What a ridiculous statement.
Supply and demand is not what should rule everybody's life, even if you are not in favor of the strike.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 22):
and many French employers are just to scared of trying out people totally lacking experience under current law as they may get stuck with them

We often employ very young people, at their first employment, and unfortunately we need to send many of them home after only a few months. It's not lack of experience: you can get around that by teaching them. It's the attitude. Many of them just sit there in front of their computer doing nothing, and only start doing something if you actively tell them (or just look at them).

Mind you, not everyone is like that, but the risk is there. And not being able to fire them during the first 2 years would be a real pain, I admit it.

-Manuel
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 27):
Supply and demand is not what should rule everybody's life, even if you are not in favor of the strike.

Supply and Demand is the very foundation of capitalism....
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 26):
Actually this was one of the most civilised threads that we've ever had about unions.

And it provided me with a smile and amusement Big grin
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 29):
Supply and Demand is the very foundation of capitalism....

...and a very, very debated concept even amongst orthodox economists  Wink
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deltagator
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:49 am

Found a little blurb giving a brief overview of the issue at hand. I got it on Foxnews.com (so I'm sure someone will call it anti-union, etc.) but it seems pretty neutral to me.

"The new youth employment law would let companies dismiss workers under 26 without cause during their first two years on the job — a provision the government hopes will make employers more willing to hire younger workers and reduce sky-high youth unemployment in France. Critics feel it will eat into job protections and leave youths even more vulnerable."

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 22):
Unemployment is highest amongst the newly graduated from certain spectrums of the French thrid level education system, and many French employers are just to scared of trying out people totally lacking experience under current law as they may get stuck with them

'Splain that one a little bit better but I think I know where you are going. Students on the lower end of the grade scale with non-technical degrees such as Literature, PolySci, etc. with no really marketable job skills.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 22):
thus I do not understand people's opposition to this... makes me think it's simply the lazy students who couldn't be bothered studying or working at all.

Neither do I. Here in Georgia I can be let go with no notice if I am not living up to the expectations of my employer. Obviously they couldn't violate any anti-discrimination laws in getting rid of me but it helps ensure that the better workers keep the job.

It is intersting to see the changes by the French government. First the repeal of the 35 hour work week when it was realized that underemplyment of folks did not help get rid of unemployment. Now this change where people actually have to work to keep their job looks good to me.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 31):
Quoting Alberchico (Reply 29):
Supply and Demand is the very foundation of capitalism....

...and a very, very debated concept even amongst orthodox economists

there is a ton of historical evidence to back it up......
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 27):
The day there will be no demand for your ****, I suggest you cut it and throw it away.

There's no demand for French workers, so what are you suggesting they do?
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 33):
there is a ton of historical evidence to back it up......

...and there is much evidence to back up the counter arguments (involvement of institutions, bargaining individually/collectively, cartells, monopolies, market-disequilibrium, improper access in accordance with the definition of the market place - this was out of my head and I could continue this list to a larger extent, backing up the opinion that "some" neoclassical economic equations are just not that easy to solve  Wink )
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 25):
I think you should get your half hourly hour long breaks increased so you don't confuse me with Superfly again.

Well, it's an easy enough mistake to make, isn't it ? The resemblance is truly hideous amazing !
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 27):
The day there will be no demand for your ****, I suggest you cut it and throw it away.

Since that was directed at me, I also must ask what it means......
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mrniji
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
There's no demand for French workers, so what are you suggesting they do?

 rotfl  - this was a mean but good sarcastic one
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day.........

They have the right to protest and demonstrate. If that messes up your day then tough luck.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:55 am

I definitely agree with the strike right, but i'd prefer strikers to selectively strike. Like trying to freeze the life of politicians they protest against. Major electrical, transports, water etc strikes targeted on villepin, chirac, sarkozy and all those sc*mbags would be a delicious idea.

It only happened once or two, when EDF people (Electrical supply) were on strike and cut power to some politicians home. And some SNCF (rail) people refused boarding on TGV's to some right winged politicians as a "targeted" strike.

Simply said: You are an UMP politician ? Great ! You'll have to work with a candle, walk to your workplace cause no more car neither plane or train for you. You'll have to go to public showers to stay clean etc !

Some politicians even proposed salary "strikes" for politicians during social tensions. And if you touch to their money politicians will crawl like babies...

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Kyril (Reply 40):

That's a pretty good idea, i like the sound of it. I wonder if anyone will do selective striking. Whatever is most effective is what will be used i guess.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 41):
wonder if anyone will do selective striking

Personally anyone who pulls this crap is a TRAITOR........  Angry  Angry  Angry
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Kyril (Reply 40):
I definitely agree with the strike right, but i'd prefer strikers to selectively strike. Like trying to freeze the life of politicians they protest against.

I don't agree with that one. After all, our nations are still supposed to be democratic. Democracy gives people the right to protest, but not the right to sabotage politicians' lives. You can stand in front of their homes or their offices and tell them what you think, but *not* mess up their lives with "selective striking". This is absolutely un-democratic and un-civilized.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 42):
Personally anyone who pulls this crap is a TRAITOR........

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

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mrniji
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 43):
gives people the right to protest, but not the right to sabotage politicians' lives.

so what happens if the politicians sabotage the lifes of the people?  Wink
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:03 pm

In USA, and working for most private companies, one can get fired even on the first day! So giving these people two years is WAY too lenient! In my first real job after college, we had another new hire who turned out to be clueless. Interviewed fine but just didn't get it. He was fired after about 6 months, which was 5 months too late, IMHO, bu they kept giving him a chance at different tasks.
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Pyrex
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 41):
That's a pretty good idea

No it's not, it's just a childish and imature idea.

Besides, deliberately cutting off someone's electricity could be considered a crime against property, even if you work for EDF. At the very least it is extremely low professional standards (the kind that could get you fired if that was in any way possible in France).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Again The French With Their Strikes

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 41):
That's a pretty good idea, i like the sound of it.

It's a mad idea. OK, strikes are accepted as a legitimate economic right, although I see as a certain ethical(?) problem in the fact, that there's huge difference in the impact strikes of certain professions have. If brewery XY goes on strike, you'll hardly notice and grab a beer from brewery AA or ZZ or whatever.
On the other hands strikes in utilities or public transport sector effectively take the rest of the society, because their impact and damage they cause to the society is tremendous (that's why transport employees just love to strike). But it's still acceptable.
What you are suggesting with these "selective" strikes is give the union bosses, authority to abuse the nature of theit profession which enables them to bully certain people based on their sympathies or antipathies.
To use my example: I work in a brewery XY and hate the guts of politican Joe. Joe drinks wine, so denying Joe supply of beer XY is futile because he does not drink it anyway.
On the other hand my friend let's say works for power or water company or trash collection company. If you'd make it legal to abuse his position to prop his agenda he can make miserable for anyone, because being without water or electricity or drown in trash sucks and there are no real alternatives.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15200
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Again The French With Their Strikes

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 46):
No it's not, it's just a childish and imature idea.

It's par for the course for French unions.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

Again The French With Their Strikes

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:12 am

And this is why the EU will eventually fail.

Lower productivity + more benefits coupled with an population pyramid that is about to become inverted is going to bring the French economy to a standstill.

I've said it on multiple occassions - I bet at least one major EU economy drops out within the next 30 years.

To argue for "job security" for under 25 year olds when the unemployment rate in that demographic is in the mid-20% is absurd. How about you get a job first and then worry about making it secure?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.

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