9VSPO
Topic Author
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UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:31 am

Were you affected in any way? Do you think workers were right to strike over pensions? I think they were. It's not their fault they are going to live longer!
 
MYT332
Posts: 7285
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Thread starter):
Were you affected in any way?

I had to turn my neck to read a matrix on the M6 last night that read 'Mersey Tunnels Closed.' I'm thinking of suing somebody.
One Life, Live it.
 
willo
Posts: 1331
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 1):
'Mersey Tunnels Closed"

What? The whole of Liverpool kept their mouth shut for the day?

My local Library was shut  Sad
 
mhodgson
Posts: 4673
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:42 am

Their cause is fair enough - but I don't think they will earn public empathy by striking. Schools, libraries, parks, offices etc are all closed, causing great inconvenience. The Tyne and Wear Metro is shut, as are the Mersey Tunnels. Our bins weren't collected today, and won't be for a fortnight (But thats OK, because we can take it to the tip  Yeah sure ). Like rail strikes, and the fire strikes a few years ago, they do not give people a sense of empathy - just bitterness and annoyance!

What also annoyed me is the striking worker who was interviewed who said she was striking because she wanted to retire at 60. Is 65 not good enough for these people, like it is for the rest of the population?
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MYT332
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Willo (Reply 2):
The whole of Liverpool kept their mouth shut for the day?

Care to stand up and say that, I'm half scouse!  Wink

Luckily, I don't have their accent!
One Life, Live it.
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 3):
they do not give people a sense of empathy

I disagree. They entered into a contract of employment with the government and now the government are trying to change it. It's not their fault.
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 4):

Luckily, I don't have their accent!

Not to mention that he's a skinny 5ft runt of a scouser ....  Smile
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
willo
Posts: 1331
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 4):
Care to stand up and say that, I'm half scouse!

As a half scouse you were able to crane your neck. A true scouser wouldn't be able to because of the chip on his shoulder.

 duck 
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:04 am

Manchester had a few small picket lines outside the town hall. As with all strike days, it ended up raining. Me and my mate fabricated 'Honk if you think they should be fired!' signs and had fun for a few minutes in our lunch hour, until one of the union reps threatened to 'duff us up'.  Sad
Your bone's got a little machine
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 8):
Me and my mate fabricated 'Honk if you think they should be fired!' signs and had fun for a few minutes in our lunch hour, until one of the union reps threatened to 'duff us up'

 Wow!
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 9):
Wow!

It was all done in the best possible taste. Strikes are a huge amount of fun.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
trident3
Posts: 989
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 5):
I disagree. They entered into a contract of employment with the government and now the government are trying to change it. It's not their fault

But the government arbitarliy changed the terms of my company pension when they removed the tax relief on share dividends to pensions. We were not consulted, we had no say in the matter, they just took our money away. Local government pensions are paid out of our council tax, which means that I am having to pay out of my own reduced income ( I have had to increase my own pension contributions) and OAPs are having to pay more out of their limited pensions to subsidise early retirement for these workers. It is not as if they are working in stressful, difficult, low paid jobs, the average public sector worker earns 17% more than the private sector.
They should remember who actually pays their wages and pensions. It is not the government, it is us the tax payer!  Angry
"We are the warrior race-Tough men in the toughest sport." Brian Noble, Head Coach, Great Britain Rugby League.
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
Strikes are a huge amount of fun

Unless you are the one's on strike!  Yeah sure
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 12):
Unless you are the one's on strike! Yeah sure

And it's raining.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
mhodgson
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 5):
I disagree. They entered into a contract of employment with the government and now the government are trying to change it. It's not their fault.

I appreciate that - but I'd feel sorry for them without my life being disrupted! I'm just glad I'm not a parent whose children were off school today!
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777236ER
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Trident3 (Reply 11):
They should remember who actually pays their wages and pensions. It is not the government, it is us the tax payer!

Bingo. They chose to work for the state. Hence, they know that their employer is funded by the tax payer, and so entirely at the whim of the politics of the land. There is no political whim for significant tax rises, nor a reduction on public spending. Hence, their pensions are toast. It's the risk they took working for the government.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
9VSPO
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 15):
Hence, their pensions are toast. It's the risk they took working for the government.

That's bullshit! How would you like to pay into a pension for 35 years to suddenly be told it's no good and you have to work for longer!!!!
 
777236ER
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 16):
That's bullshit! How would you like to pay into a pension for 35 years to suddenly be told it's no good and you have to work for longer!!!!

If I worked in the private sector (which I do), I'd be pissed off. If I worked for the public sector (which I don't, for a reason), I'm entirely at the whim of the democratically elected government.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
diesel1
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:12 am

As was pointed out above, striking can be counter productive and may not achieve a great deal in your dispute with your employer.

Certainly striking is a tool that may be used in a dispute with the employer and will show them that you are serious about the situation.

Today's strikers aren't asking for anything more than they already receive, just the retention of their existing pension conditions.

They're also asking the question why they are being discriminated against (other public sector workers are retaining their pension conditions) which means that people working together will being retiring at different ages

Of course we're all entitled to our own opinions about this strike, but some facts you should consider when making up your mind about this strike.

Many of the members of the pension scheme are women whose average pension is £31 per week

Pensions fall below the mean tested benefit levels

Retaining the existing pension conditions is less expensive than what has been proposed

Unlike Trident3's assertion, many of the workers striking today are in low paid, stressful jobs.


.
I don't like signatures...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Trident3 (Reply 11):
But the government arbitarliy changed the terms of my company pension when they removed the tax relief on share dividends to pensions. We were not consulted, we had no say in the matter, they just took our money away. Local government pensions are paid out of our council tax, which means that I am having to pay out of my own reduced income ( I have had to increase my own pension contributions) and OAPs are having to pay more out of their limited pensions to subsidise early retirement for these workers. It is not as if they are working in stressful, difficult, low paid jobs, the average public sector worker earns 17% more than the private sector.
They should remember who actually pays their wages and pensions. It is not the government, it is us the tax payer!

The same here. There is public services strike going on since several weeks over an average of 20 minute more work every day the government wants them to work extra due to financial shortages of the community, state and federal governments.
While most people realise that e.g. nurses, hospital doctors, police officers, fire fighters etc. at the frontline of public work are often grossly underpaid for what they are doing and very few people would mind an increase and improvements in working conditions for them, many people (me for instance) are fed up that the general contract demanded by the unions would again prefer the paper pushers in the administrations, who are considered to be quite lazy and already wellpaid, especially since most tax payers from the private sector are working under much harder working conditions at less pay than the average administrative employee ("government clerk" has long become a synonyme for laziness in Germany )
This strike, unpopular it is, is slowly petering out and might have become a serious defeat for the public services union VerDi. E.g. parents with children in public kindergartens have been improvising organising day care so that they could continue to go to work and e.g. in Hannover the rubbish disposal workers had to clean up the streets with their tails tucked in between their legs after 4 weeks of strike without effect, because nobody cared. The population accused them of laziness and didn't support them as expected.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
QANTASforever
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:13 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 8):
Manchester had a few small picket lines outside the town hall. As with all strike days, it ended up raining. Me and my mate fabricated 'Honk if you think they should be fired!' signs and had fun for a few minutes in our lunch hour

SCAB!

 Wink

Long live the dear leader.......
















QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 16):
That's bullshit! How would you like to pay into a pension for 35 years to suddenly be told it's no good and you have to work for longer!!!!

And what do you think has happened in the private sector? The government allowed companies to underfund the pension provisions due to a scandalous change in the law meaning that some people are getting a fraction of what they were entitled to. Some pension funds have collapsed, and some people who have paid in for all those years are getting virtually nothing, and the government won't bail them out. Then Gordon Brown decided to raid private (but not state) pensions for billions of pounds by removing the tax rebates and knackering the pension funds. Company after company has closed its final salary scheme, first for new entrants, and now for existing workers. Everyone in the private sector has now been told they are going to have to work until they are 66, 67, 68, 69 or 70.

Some people in the private sector have not only paid in for 35 years and been told now they have to work longer, but that they have to work longer and STILL won't get what they thought they were going to receive.

The pension crisis in the private sector is entirely due to government interference and short-term thinking, which is why it is so risible when they lecture us on making plans for our retirement. We had done, but then they then decided to shaft us.

Now those in the public sector are going through the same thing and are demanding that the rest of us pay for it. About a quarter of my council tax goes towards paying for the pension provision of council workers, at the same time as we are all going through these pension problems. They are going to keep their wonderful final salary schemes as the rest of us cast around and wonder how the hell we are going to make our own provision for our retirement. It'd be lovely if someone was going to contribute 15% of salary to our pension funds, really it would.

Viewed in isolation, these workers have a point. But ultimately, they are demanding to be treated as a special case, at the expense of the rest of us.

All of which is why I'm not relying on a pension fund that won't cover my needs, so I own property and rent it out instead. But these council workers are really going to struggle to attract much sympathy from those of us outside the public sector. I don't remember seeing too many protests from them about our situation over the last few years, they were quite happy with their retire at 60, final salary scheme.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:40 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
Now those in the public sector are going through the same thing and are demanding that the rest of us pay for it. About a quarter of my council tax goes towards paying for the pension provision of council workers, at the same time as we are all going through these pension problems. They are going to keep their wonderful final salary schemes as the rest of us cast around and wonder how the hell we are going to make our own provision for our retirement. It'd be lovely if someone was going to contribute 15% of salary to our pension funds, really it would.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Couldn't agree more and couldn't put it any better Banco.

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
All of which is why I'm not relying on a pension fund that won't cover my needs, so I own property and rent it out instead.

The same conclusion I have come to.....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
QANTASforever
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
All of which is why I'm not relying on a pension fund that won't cover my needs, so I own property and rent it out instead.

Very prudent.

Or you can do what I do. I diversify my investments not only across property within my own country, but I invest my money in pension (superannuation) funds in 2 different countries.

There is no reason (I think, UK laws may differ from Australian) for you to not look into pension funds in Europe and the United States.......




............or the Cayman Islands, or Liechtenstein, or Monaco....  Wink

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):
There is no reason (I think, UK laws may differ from Australian) for you to not look into pension funds in Europe and the United States.......

Yes and no. It depends on the country. But that money-grabbing tosser (you can tell he's systematically going though all my little tax-avoidance schemes  Wink ) Gordon Brown has removed a lot of the tax-exempt status from foreign investments. But it can still be worthwhile of course. A lot of Europeans invest in the UK markets because interest rates are higher than in the Eurozone, so from our perspective it makes finding a higher interest rate country a bit more difficult. Interestingly, and for the first time in decades, US interest rates are now higher than UK ones. As always (and as you say) it's about spreading the investment to manage the risk.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):
............or the Cayman Islands, or Liechtenstein, or Monaco....

I've been meaning to talk to you about that....  Wink
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
All of which is why I'm not relying on a pension fund that won't cover my needs, so I own property and rent it out instead

Which is fine.

Of course the average classroom assistant or dinner lady may not be able to do this....

What then?
I don't like signatures...
 
trident3
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:02 am

Retire at 65! The way things are going that will still be 5 years or so before the rest of us will be allowed to.
"We are the warrior race-Tough men in the toughest sport." Brian Noble, Head Coach, Great Britain Rugby League.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 25):
Of course the average classroom assistant or dinner lady may not be able to do this....

What then?

And who is saying they shouldn't get a pension?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
And who is saying they shouldn't get a pension?

You misunderstand.  Smile

The average dinner lady or classroom assistant may not be able to afford a property to rent out.

What then?
I don't like signatures...
 
diesel1
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Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Trident3 (Reply 26):
Retire at 65! The way things are going that will still be 5 years or so before the rest of us will be allowed to.

Unlikely. Though of course not impossible.

The Pensions Commision has suggested a raising of state pension age to 68.

This would be phased in, and depending on which part of the 36-45 age bracket you are in, may or may not affect you.
If it does affect you, then your state pension age age might be raised to 66.

A different, and more pertinent question is whether we will be able to (not allowed to) retire at 65 - this depends on the pension schemes we subscribe to, and what provision we have made for saving in readiness for our old age.
I don't like signatures...
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:58 am

I have to wait another week for the trash to be collected now  banghead 



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1687
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:10 am

In terms of public transport, be glad that a lot of you don't live in NI. The entire pulic transport system, both bus and rail, is run by a local yet publically funded company called Translink. Here's the website if you're interested. http://www.translink.co.uk/ Although mass congestion on the roads seems to have been avoided, (this time) it could have been a lot worse indeed.

 worried 
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:02 pm

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 28):
The average dinner lady or classroom assistant may not be able to afford a property to rent out.

I think I see what you're getting at. You're saying that these people don't get the opportunity to plan for a comfortable retirement?

Isn't that the same as in any other walk of life? Some people are better off than others, and that's always going to be the case. However, public sector workers of whatever level do at least get a final salary scheme and a pension. People in a similar position in the private sector get absolutely nothing. Put it this way, Your average dinner lady or classroom assstant (and my sister is one) is in a much better position vis a vis their pension than a shop assistant or garage mechanic who has nothing.

Ignore my situation, ultimately I can afford to do what I want. But that garage mechanic or shop assistant also pays council tax. The strike is demanding that these people pay for the early retirement of council workers whilst they have to go on till they're 70. Do you think that is fair? Why is a dinner lady a more special case than a shop assistant?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
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RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:30 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
I think I see what you're getting at. You're saying that these people don't get the opportunity to plan for a comfortable retirement?

You know what I'm getting at. But it's not that they don't get the opportunity to plan. Everyone has the opportunity to plan, its whether circumstances allow for a comfortable retirement.

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Ignore my situation, ultimately I can afford to do what I want

You'd agree you are fortunate then? You'd also agree that to draw that initial comparison between yourself, and a classroom assistant or dinner lady is hardly valid comparison given that your circumstances are so different?

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
The strike is demanding that these people pay for the early retirement of council workers whilst they have to go on till they're 70

Where's the magical figure of 70 coming from...?

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Do you think that is fair? Why is a dinner lady a more special case than a shop assistant?

Why should some workers have their benefits eroded? Why not put your efforts into improving conditions for all rather than reducing them for some.
I don't like signatures...
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:54 pm

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 33):
its whether circumstances allow for a comfortable retirement.

That's the same for everyone. But not everyone gets the kind of pension that a public sector worker has. Private sector workers often don't have anyone paying into a fund for them, they have to do all themselves.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 33):
You'd agree you are fortunate then?

Yes and no. "Fortune" doesn't enter into it. Am I better off? Of course.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 33):
You'd also agree that to draw that initial comparison between yourself, and a classroom assistant or dinner lady is hardly valid comparison given that your circumstances are so different?

I never made such a comparison. I never even mentioned classroom assistants or dinner ladies, YOU did. I compared public and private sectors and you know it. You haven't answered the point about a shop assistant versus a dinner lady. Why does the dinner lady deserve a fully funded pension scheme and a shop worker not?

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 33):
Where's the magical figure of 70 coming from...?

Indications are that private sector workers are likely to have to work until 70 to get any kind of decent pension - and that's if they have pension provision. Many, if not most, do not. Public sector workers do. The figure of 68 refers to the state pension. You surely don't believe that a basic state pension is sufficient to support these people? You are confusing two separate issues. The basic pension applies to everyone, and will be claimable at an ever increasing age up to 68 over the next 30 years. You can discount the state pension from this discussion, it is not relevant.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 33):
Why should some workers have their benefits eroded? Why not put your efforts into improving conditions for all rather than reducing them for some.

Some workers? The only ones who haven't had benefits eroded are public sector ones! Private sector workers have been comprehensively shafted. And where were the protests from the public sector workers then? They were quite happy with their fully-funded pension schemes paid for by everyone else. Why should public sector workers get an early retirement and private sector ones not?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
raffik
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:04 pm

I put my bin out the other night and the rubbish collectors never turned up!
I don't want to get rats  Sad
- Alec
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 33):
Why should some workers have their benefits eroded? Why not put your efforts into improving conditions for all rather than reducing them for some.

No workers should have their benefits eroded, but the fact is that it is happening big time in the private sector.

But why should some people in the public sector quite happily retire early thanks mainly to the fact that it is the rest of the population paying for them to do so and have to continue working much longer as a result.

You mention dinner ladies and the like but also it applies to plenty of well-paid civil servants too. Why should they have their pensions paid by us so they can retire earlier.

The issue of pensions here is one of fairness- it should be the same for all. Perhaps you would agree to private sector workers getting a dramatically increased state pension over public sector workers to compensate.....But then I suspect you wouldn't.....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
I never made such a comparison. I never even mentioned classroom assistants or dinner ladies, YOU did

I know, I know.... I thought afterwards that it was unlikely you'd miss that.....  Wink What you did do was introduce your own personal circumstances, something that many workers, public or private sector, aren't in a position to do, so something that is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion.

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
Why does the dinner lady deserve a fully funded pension scheme and a shop worker not?

I haven't suggested this so I don't feel the need to respond. Through inference you seem to be suggesting this - what do you think? What's your definition on 'fully funded' by the way?

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
You surely don't believe that a basic state pension is sufficient to support these people?

I haven't suggested this that the basic state pension is enough/not enough for any group of workers. What do you think?

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
You are confusing two separate issues

No. I understand the issues. If you read back in the thread you'll see that there are those who believe that they won't be allowed to retire until 70.
I also made this comment

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 29):
A different, and more pertinent question is whether we will be able to (not allowed to) retire at 65 - this depends on the pension schemes we subscribe to, and what provision we have made for saving in readiness for our old age.



Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
The basic pension applies to everyone, and will be claimable at an ever increasing age up to 68 over the next 30 years.

AFAIK this hasn't been confirmed. I know it's been suggested. What's the plan for it to become law?

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
And where were the protests from the public sector workers then?

We could ask 'where were the protests from the private sector workers' ... why do you think such a difference in the amount of 'noise'. ?

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
Some workers?

In the context of the discussion being about public sector workers, then it is "some workers".


Quoting Cornish (Reply 36):
You mention dinner ladies and the like but also it applies to plenty of well-paid civil servants too

Yes, you're right. I'd deliberately excluded them from the other discussion as it makes it more difficult to discuss a case for the less well paid workers. I'm a little suprised it took so long for the point to be made  Wink

Quoting Cornish (Reply 36):
The issue of pensions here is one of fairness- it should be the same for all.

I guess 'fairness' could bring into play all sorts of questions around means testing...

Quoting Cornish (Reply 36):
Perhaps you would agree to private sector workers getting a dramatically increased state pension over public sector workers to compensate

Why do you think I wouldn't agree to that?
I don't like signatures...
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
What you did do was introduce your own personal circumstances, something that many workers, public or private sector, aren't in a position to do, so something that is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion.

Rubbish. My own personal circumstances were mentioned as a separate paragraph tacked on to the end of the post. It's relevance to the discussion only came into question when YOU (again) raised the matter by trying to compare my personal circumstances to those of a dinner lady. As a debating tool, it's a pretty reprehensible tactic. So don't lecture me about introducing my situation into the subject at hand when you deliberately skewed the tenor of the argument through such methods.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
I haven't suggested this so I don't feel the need to respond

Yes, you have through implication. There were several posts highlighting the problems in the private sector and then you pile in with your comments about dinner ladies. If you aren't going to engage and answer the questions put to you, then as a discourse this becomes decidedly one-sided, based on you putting your own points and refusing to answer anyone else's. So if you won't answer anyone else's questions, then why should they answer yours? Last chance to make a proper contribution to the debate before you get ignored. This isn't a meeting of the local pressure group.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
I haven't suggested this that the basic state pension is enough/not enough for any group of workers.

Once again. YOU raised the issue of the basic state pension.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
AFAIK this hasn't been confirmed. I know it's been suggested. What's the plan for it to become law?

The government announced that they accepted some of the premise of the report. As to any plan for it to become law, they are once again vacillating on the matter on the grounds of cost. Which would mean that retirement age would if anything go higher than 68.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
We could ask 'where were the protests from the private sector workers' ...

You clearly weren't listening. Or perhaps you completely missed the protests outside Downing Street about pensioners who lost their private pensions.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
why do you think such a difference in the amount of 'noise'. ?

Why don't you answer the points put to you first.  Yeah sure

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 37):
In the context of the discussion being about public sector workers, then it is "some workers".

More ludicrous sophistry. Public sector workers are not a discrete group.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: UK Public Service Strike Today

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
My own personal circumstances were mentioned as a separate paragraph tacked on to the end of the post. It's relevance to the discussion only came into question when YOU (again) raised the matter by trying to compare my personal circumstances to those of a dinner lady

You brought your circumstances into this discussion initially, but now appear a little touchy about them when discussed or used in comparisons - fair enough, I won't mention it again.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
There were several posts highlighting the problems in the private sector and then you pile in with your comments about dinner ladies

The thread is about a public service sector strike. It is reasonable then to discuss public service workers within it.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
YOU raised the issue of the basic state pension

Within the same paragraph you want to discuss whether I think the state pension is sufficient, and you want to discount it from this discussion.
We'll agree to discount it from the discussion.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
You clearly weren't listening. Or perhaps you completely missed the protests outside Downing Street about pensioners who lost their private pensions.

Let me put it differently.
Public sector workers strike, there's a huge amount of publicity around it, we even have a discussion about it here....
For private sector workers, there has been media coverage of the impacts etc., but overall would you agree that there has been nothing like the emphasis that there has been on this public sector workers? Certainly not from the unions.
I'm just curious as to why you think that is.

(An additional point on your comment... can you add a bit of detail to 'pensioners who lost their private pensions' protesting. Nothing more than curiosity)

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
More ludicrous sophistry. Public sector workers are not a discrete group.

No. No intention of sophistry. I was asking why 'some' - we could use 'certain' as an alternative, referring specifically to the affected workers - should have their benefits eroded.

And onto the last bit...

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
The strike is demanding that these people pay for the early retirement of council workers

That's the way it works isn't it, the tax payer pays the wages of the public sector worker.

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Do you think that is fair? Why is a dinner lady a more special case than a shop assistant?

You're quite insistent on making this an issue about comparison of workers, but because private sector workers have lost out, is that a justification that public sector workers should lose out too?

Like I said before, the emphasis should be on improving benefits not taking them away. Do you agree on that?
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