mdsh00
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Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:54 am

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3755295.html

Ah how nice of Tom Delay, diverting attention from his own problem and blaming those "heathens" for it instead.

Quote:
"This is a man, I believe, God has appointed ... to represent righteousness in government," Scarborough told the audience, which included Eagle Forum Founder Phyllis Schlafly, former ambassador Alan Keyes, and Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan.

So God likes to appoint crooks and liars to spread his word? Brilliant. It's scary how many people buy into Delay's propaganda.

It's funny that this supposed "war on Christianity" crying is done by politicians with an agenda, the same ones that pass stupid laws like banning the sale of sex toys in MS.

This picture sums it up well:

77% of the country identifies as Christians, I wouldn't really call that oppression.

[Edited 2006-03-29 21:18:45]
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
deltagator
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RE: Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
Ah how nice of Tom Delay, diverting attention from his own problem and blaming those "heathens" for it instead.

Welcome to American politics. No, wait...just welcome to politics in general.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
77% of the country identifies as Christians, I wouldn't really call that oppression.

While the majority of the country may identify themselves as Christians and it is hard to say they are repressed I do agree that the war against anything remotely Christian in the public is going a bit far. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and that fact isn't going to change.

I have a problem when stores begin to call things Holiday Trees or Spring Bunnies. They are Christmas Trees and Easter Bunnies. If you don't like Christian holidays then ignore them and don't celebrate them. Turn the channel, shop someplace else, etc.

To say someone in St. Paul, MN can't display an Easter Bunny on their desk at the County offices because it might "offend" a non-Christian is ridiculous. What if I said that something Muslim or Hindu hanging in someone's cube at the time of their hioliday celebration offended me? I'd be immediately branded as a bigot.

I know that doesn't really discuss the Delay thing (I'm a Republican and I think he is an ass and doesn't represent true GOP values or platform.)
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
stlgph
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
(I'm a Republican and I think he is an ass and doesn't represent true GOP values or platform.)

You'd make a great stand up comedian.
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dl021
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:42 am

Now I think he's trying to hide something. Patriotism and religion seem to be refuges for scoundrels to the point of making the rest of us who are genuinely one or both look guilty by proximity.
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stlgph
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Now I think he's trying to hide something. Patriotism and religion seem to be refuges for scoundrels to the point of making the rest of us who are genuinely one or both look guilty by proximity.

Rut roh. Would Je$u$ approve of sacrifices in his honor?
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deltagator
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 2):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
(I'm a Republican and I think he is an ass and doesn't represent true GOP values or platform.)

You'd make a great stand up comedian.

Yes I would make a great comedian but I sense sarcasm here.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
jaysit
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:00 am

Didn't you know that any criticism of Tom Delay is a criticism of Jesus?

This is what the Delay Party Faithful think of this ratcatcher:

"Right now, I wouldn't vote Democratic if Jesus Christ was running." Judy Deats, a Texas Republican, who is standing by Rep. Tom DeLay in his re-election bid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11785829/site/newsweek/

Delay isn't just Jesus to these loonies. He's Super Jesus !!
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cfalk
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
77% of the country identifies as Christians, I wouldn't really call that oppression.

When people start attacking the tradition of Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny, two completely harmless symbols of a christian holiday, yes, I think christians are indeed being oppressed to some extent.

The whole concept of seperation of church and state was never to avoid offending people. It was meant to avoid the practice of the govenment literally putting a gun to your head and saying, "Renounce the Pope or we kill you", or something similar, a practice that was in the very recent past when the Constitution was written.

Secondly, all these attacks on Easter etc. are clearly illegal. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The state may not establish a religion (A Church of the United States), as was done in England, nor can it prevent religious practice.

Private companies have more leeway. You can tell your employees that the Bunny is inappropriate. But if you work for the government, the 1st amendment applies to you.
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stlgph
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
He's Super Jesus !!

It's Hammer Time!



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Except we'll make a federal holiday out of Christmas!
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
maury
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles

...with a firm division between church and state...that whole "swear on the bible to defend the Constitution, and not vice-versa" thing. And we're watching people like DeLay and his crowd to make sure *that* doesn't change.

As far as DeLay not representing the Republican party or it's principles...what were his primary election results again? And what was his party role in DC until recently...?
 
mdsh00
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
When people start attacking the tradition of Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny, two completely harmless symbols of a christian holiday, yes, I think christians are indeed being oppressed to some extent.

The whole concept of seperation of church and state was never to avoid offending people. It was meant to avoid the practice of the govenment literally putting a gun to your head and saying, "Renounce the Pope or we kill you", or something similar, a practice that was in the very recent past when the Constitution was written.

I'm not Christian and I've never had a problem with people calling it Christmas, Easter, etc. Where people should be focusing on are the PC Nazi's who make it their goal to remove all of those symbols in society. What I think is unfair is when these "opressed" feeling Christians paint it that ALL non-Christians are out to get them, which isn't true at all. The problem also comes when these people are so caught up in their "we are oppressed" syndrome, that they go out and "oppress" others when they are in a position of power.

Example, calling them Christmas trees in public and acknowledging it is perfectly fine, putting the 10 Commandments in public buildings (schools, etc) is too much, esp when one of them says that there is no other God than the Judeo-Christian one. There has to be some kind of compromise between the two.
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dl021
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
Except we'll make a federal holiday out of Christmas!

I'm going to say that's more a matter of convenience since most of the country would be taking that day off anyway. Might as well make it a holiday as a gesture to the people who consider it significant.

I also think that every other religion should be given a significant day during the year to take off and they should work on Christmas. But since that won't work (for various reasons) then they can take Christmas off too.  

[Edited 2006-03-29 23:01:06]
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dl021
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 10):
What I think is unfair is when these "opressed" feeling Christians paint it that ALL non-Christians are out to get them

Well, to be fair it does seem that the only non-Christians we hear from are the ones screaming bloody murder.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 10):
Example, calling them Christmas trees in public and acknowledging it is perfectly fine, putting the 10 Commandments in public buildings (schools, etc) is too much, esp when one of them says that there is no other God than the Judeo-Christian one. There has to be some kind of compromise between the two.

How about putting up all the other religious influences on the law and our culture and honoring them as well. Instead of taking things down and hiding, they should be organizing to put up the Torah, the Koran, the Magna Carta, Hammurabi's Code and Napoleonic Code. People want to hide what they are afraid of....they need to educate better in order to remove superstition and doubt. A well educated person has a better chance of making the correct judgement as regards societal influence and standards.
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stlgph
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I'm going to say that's more a matter of convenience since most of the country would be taking that day off anyway. Might as well make it a holiday as a gesture to the people who consider it significant.

I also think that every other religion should be given a significant day during the year to take off and they should work on Christmas. But since that won't work (for various reasons) then they can take Christmas off too.

I am sure there are some companys out there that are a few good apples and respect Yom Kippur or what have you and don't dock their employees for vacation time or sick time, but you have your couple of bad apple companies, or a handful, or as some might say, a majority, that don't see it this way...and these are often the ones that give you jack for vacation time anyway. That needs to change. I think we all could agree on that, yes?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
When people start attacking the tradition of Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny, two completely harmless symbols of a christian holiday, yes, I think christians are indeed being oppressed to some extent.

Especially since these are heathen (fertility) symbols anyway! Big grin

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
'm going to say that's more a matter of convenience since most of the country would be taking that day off anyway. Might as well make it a holiday as a gesture to the people who consider it significant.

I know that Easter generally falls on similar days as the Jewish Pessah (Sp?) celebration. I think Christmas, a high Jewish holiday, a Muslim and a Hindu festivity are also falling roughly around the same time.
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
searpqx
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 12):
Well, to be fair it does seem that the only non-Christians we hear from are the ones screaming bloody murder.

You can no more judge the bulk of non-Christians by the rantings of a few loud mouths, than all Christians can be judged by the likes of Robertson, Fallwell, Phelps, etc. If you remember back to the Christmas Tree threads last December, I don't think there was a single person that had a problem with Christmas Trees being called Christmas Trees, or Christmas being called Christmas. I think the general consensus was call it what you want, celebrate the spirit of the season and ignore the religious overtones if they're not your cup of tea.

I agree that the PC police go too far in an attempt to eradicate anything vaguely religious in public life, and I do think it's a misinterpretation of the 1st Amendment. But there is no way in hell you can claim that Christianity is 'under attack'. The last decade has seen an explosive growth in the political power of Christian conservatives, there is a thread underway about the increased enrollment in Christian schools, and as noted, the vast majority of the country identify themselves as Christian.

Bottom line, as noted by others, Delay is resorting to the oldest trick in the book to divert attention away from himself. Pick a 'sacred cow', claim it's in trouble and stir the emotions, then ride the wave (back) to power. It only confirms what a pandering sleaze ball the guy is.
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bushpilot
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
To say someone in St. Paul, MN can't display an Easter Bunny on their desk at the County offices because it might "offend" a non-Christian is ridiculous. What if I said that something Muslim or Hindu hanging in someone's cube at the time of their hioliday celebration offended me? I'd be immediately branded as a bigot.

This is true, I have experienced it myself.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Patriotism and religion seem to be refuges for scoundrels to the point of making the rest of us who are genuinely one or both look guilty by proximity.

That is right out of the GOP playbook.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
When people start attacking the tradition of Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny, two completely harmless symbols of a christian holiday, yes, I think christians are indeed being oppressed to some extent.

I think we do need to give that a rest, instead of right and wrong or whathave you, we are to concerned with not hurting someones feelings.

That being said, what I get tired of with the fundamentalist Christian movement is that they want to influence me, in my daily life. They have plenty of politicians by the proverbial balls(dont agree with us, you must be against god, and we are going to tell everyone on sunday)
Christianity has a very checkered past in plenty of civil and human rights issues that I think we all know about. But in todays hot button issues, abortion, gay rights, death penalty. I dont agree with a damn one of thier views. But they think by having "god" on thier side it makes them correct and anyone against it is an idiot. Now if someone has another reason why they are against gay marraige or abortion besides the bible says so, then Ill listen. But when they pull out the its in the bible rebuttal, the debate is overwith.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 12):
How about putting up all the other religious influences on the law and our culture and honoring them as well. Instead of taking things down and hiding, they should be organizing to put up the Torah, the Koran, the Magna Carta, Hammurabi's Code and Napoleonic Code.

That works too.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 12):
Well, to be fair it does seem that the only non-Christians we hear from are the ones screaming bloody murder.

I think Searpqx said it right, but I think the vast majority of non Christians really don't have a problem. Maybe these politicians looking to capitalize on religion pick isolated incidents and then sensationize them.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
maury
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 17):
Maybe these politicians looking to capitalize on religion pick isolated incidents and then sensationize them.

Ya think? And d'ya think the "fair and balanced" news media might capitalize on said incidents, since I never saw that stupid "they say Christmas trees is BAD!!" story treated seriously anywhere else? The "commentators" on Fox blow so much smoke that it ain't funny...sadly, little of it's coming from their mouths.

All that said...if DeLay is the best front man the Xians can come up with, I feel pretty good about the future. Hey, how come I never got a reply to my questions (in reply 9) about His Oppressedness' standing within his political party, by the way?
 
FlyVirgin744
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting from the article:

We are, after all, a society that ... degrades the institution of marriage...

I'd like to know how many people in that audience are divorced.
Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.
 
deltagator
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:56 pm

I thought I had responded earlier but I guess I didn't.

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 19):
We are, after all, a society that ... degrades the institution of marriage...

Oh this one just pisses me off so much when the GOP totes this one out. I consider myself a conservative, Christian, and Republican but I really don't care if some gay folks get married. As long as their marriage doesn't infringe on my property rights I don't care. Marriage is a legal contract and should be available to everyone who is able to enter into a contract. If the church they are members of has a problem with it that is one thing but the state should not have a say in it.

Quoting Maury (Reply 9):
As far as DeLay not representing the Republican party or it's principles...what were his primary election results again? And what was his party role in DC until recently...?

He blew away his primary challenger IIRC and he was part of the top party leadership but what I should have gone into more depth with was this...

I come from the mindset that the GOP is for smaller federal government and deference to the states on items not expressly given to the feds in the Constituiton. The current path of the NeoCons that are running the GOP as they pertain to domestic issues bugs the crap out of me and I know many others as well. The party is either out of touch with the grass roots or is changing into something that gets away from the previous ideals I described. In both cases it is for me to either work to change the party back to its roots or if it appears irreversible then I need to find something to move on to that supports my ideals.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
redngold
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:03 pm

Oh, Mr. DeLay... remember those corruption charges? Sounds more like "temple money changers" than "Jesus."

Nice try.
Up, up and away!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:28 pm

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 16):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Patriotism and religion seem to be refuges for scoundrels to the point of making the rest of us who are genuinely one or both look guilty by proximity.

That is right out of the GOP playbook.

Nonsense - it's spot on. The only thing Delay gives a shit about is saving his own ass right now . . . . and if he can toss out a "religion card" to do it, then so be it. Those dimwitted idiots in Texas that still give him some sort of credence should be slapped. Now he's playing to the dimwitted Jesus freaks . . . who should be equally slapped.
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ltbewr
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:49 pm

It is interesting that cozying up to 'religion' is another refuge for scoundrals like DeLay.
In the founding of the USA, we wanted to prevent religious organizations from having any control at all of our government. Our founders knew their history, some of it very recent to them of how the Church of England and Roman Catholism had excess control of some countries. Many of them were moderate belivers in faith, although some were clearly not of a particluar Christian faith.
In the 225+ years of our country, there has always been a tension as to balance of faith and government. Many of faith now want to reverse the 'liberal' ideas that have evolved, especially over the last 50 years, and to have governement control the 'sinners'. Some feel that by banning abortion for example, (yet supporting the death penalty?) they will get the fast lane into Heaven. Hopefully soon, we will get past the high peak right now of religous involvement in government.
 
MD-90
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:15 pm

I see a frightened Tom Delay who's worried about federal indictment and losing his seat.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 23):
In the founding of the USA, we wanted to prevent religious organizations from having any control at all of our government.

They wanted to prevent a state religion from being instituted, e.g. the Church of England, and to prevent government interefence in religion.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
Ah how nice of Tom Delay, diverting attention from his own problem and blaming those "heathens" for it instead.

Indeed. To say that we are in the middle of a war on Christianity goes too far, but the agenda against Christian values is painfully real. Nonetheless, the last thing needed is a corrupt politician using this issue for his personal benefit.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
77% of the country identifies as Christians, I wouldn't really call that oppression.

Numbers! Does Iraq ring a bell? The vast majority are Shia, but the Sunni minority were in charge during Saddam's regime. Actually, if the minority who have could have an agenda against Christianity are in the most powerful and influent positions, they could very well push their ideas despite their small number.
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jaysit
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
Secondly, all these attacks on Easter etc. are clearly illegal. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The state may not establish a religion (A Church of the United States), as was done in England, nor can it prevent religious practice.

The establishment of religion is more than just the hypothetical scenario of the President getting up one morning and proclaiming that, say, Scientology will be the official religion, namely because such a blatant act will never be done. However, the state can promote a religion in less blatant ways. Thus, the issue often boils down to the fact that state agencies and organizations funded by the State can't use their property/funds/etc. to promote or appear to be promoting any religion. Which means that putting a big statue of Jesus on a pedestal in a public building is out. However, when silly mid-level bureaucrats ask their underlings to remove boxes of easter egg chocolates from their desks, that is just zealotry or foolishness or poor taste (or being a big bore). Unfortunately, thats the kind of nonsense we hear in the press. It is also stray incidents such as these that are used as fodder by the usual cabal of fundies in their perpetual whining on how they're being fed to the lions.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 12):
Well, to be fair it does seem that the only non-Christians we hear from are the ones screaming bloody murder.

And in some instances they're right - for example, those who challenged Judge Roy Moore. As for the rest of us, we're too busy decorating our Christmas trees and buying gifts (and hopefully, if falcon's wife's business takes off, we can just sit at home and do that) and hoping that the Tivo doesn't crap out when its time to record the Charlie Brown Christmas special.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 25):
To say that we are in the middle of a war on Christianity goes too far, but the agenda against Christian values is painfully real.

What exactly is that agenda against Christian values? What values are we talking about here? The last time I checked, Churches were full, 90% of Americans still called themselves Christians, and Billy Graham (the father, not his rancid son) is still revered. And you can still be a practicing Christian while favoring legalized abortion, contrary to what the anti-abortion faction says. But for the Christian right, any division between Church and state is deemed a war against Christianity because social conservatives have always believed in using the power of the state to advance their messianic agenda.

The fact that some idiot calls a Christmas tree a "holiday" tree is no agenda against Christian values, because lets face it - we all know its really a Christmas tree. If some people choose not to celebrate Christmas as a religious festival, but as a big holiday, so be it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Tom Delay Sees War On Christianity In The US

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 25):
Numbers! Does Iraq ring a bell? The vast majority are Shia, but the Sunni minority were in charge during Saddam's regime. Actually, if the minority who have could have an agenda against Christianity are in the most powerful and influent positions, they could very well push their ideas despite their small number.

You can't compare Iraq to the US. Saddam was a dictator and he could get away with that. Besides, it's a different culture.

I think Jaysit summed up the whole issue very well. The only people that are satisfied with PC name changes are the anal retentive PC Police. You can call the baby in a nativity scene a "Holiday Infant" (Jay Leno) but everyone knows it's Jesus. Again, I think the majority of non-Christians aren't out to get anyone.

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 25):
Indeed. To say that we are in the middle of a war on Christianity goes too far, but the agenda against Christian values is painfully real. Nonetheless, the last thing needed is a corrupt politician using this issue for his personal benefit.

I've noticed that those complaining always keep saying their "Christian values" are being taken. How different are those values really? I'm Hindu and at the core, my beliefs have almost similar lessons on life and morals. The differences are mainly just in the stories and rituals.

In fact there were a couple times when Hindu temples were not allowed to be built based on bullshit "zoning laws." Is that really "oppression?"
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."

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