SFOMEX
Topic Author
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:10 pm

Sen. Frist will oppose the immigration reform bill that was voted 12-6 in favor by the Senate Judiciary Committee, with four Republicans and all Democrats supporting it. http://us.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/29/immigration/index.html

Why? Because the Majority Leader doesn't want any legal path that would allow a legal status to millions of illegal aliens living and working in the country. On his own words: "I disagree with this approach, not just as a matter of principle, but because granting amnesty now will only encourage future and further disrespect for the law."

Nice wording, Mr. Majority Leader. Sadly, your words are not good enough to hide the reality behind this bill: There is not an amnesty! As Sen. Specter said, "allowing people already in the country illegally to eventually obtain legal status would not be "amnesty" because it would require them to pay $2,000 in fines, undergo a background check, learn English and work for six years before being granted permanent residency."

You see? It's not like filling a form and getting fast track citizenship . Only the ones that work hard, speak English and are law-abiding will get permanent residency. One those good guys are clear, our government will have an easier time finding and deporting the bad ones and preventing more illegal immigrants.

Of course, you support a guest worker program. Your "big money" friends would not expect less from you. Cheap labor is always welcome, right?

Good luck in 2008, Senator Frist. I look forward for your ads in Spanish telling us that, once you become president, you will look after us.

[Edited 2006-03-30 06:14:08]
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Nice wording, Mr. Majority Leader. Sadly, your words are not good enough to hide the reality behind this bill: There is not an amnesty! As Sen. Specter said, "allowing people already in the country illegally to eventually obtain legal status would not be "amnesty" because it would require them to pay $2,000 in fines, undergo a background check, learn English and work for six years before being granted permanent residency."

One of our company's senior managers, a Dutch citizen, spent almost $10,000 in legal fees and temporary visas and 6 years working legally within the system to obtain his green card. The bill you're now advocating means that he would have been $8.000 better off by breaking the law. Seems unfair to me. Punish those who follow the law and reward those who don't.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:05 pm

Sen. Frist is to busy catering to the far right wing to gain support for his presidental bid. Somebody needs to take him aside,and tell him that being majority leader and runnning for president doesn't mix. By taking extreme positions he only hurts the party even more. In doing this he only makes a fool of himself remember Teri Schavo? Anyway, he has a much of a chance being elected President of the United States, as a snowball in you know where  boggled 
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Good luck in 2008, Senator Frist. I look forward for your ads in Spanish telling us that, once you become president, you will look after us.

Well, he's Senate leader of your beloved GOP.

Reap what you sow.

I'm curious if you'd be as vehemently opposed to this ludicrous bill proposed by this simpering twit of a man if the majority of illegals in this country were, say, of Chinese descent. Or are you all riled up only because the majority of those victimized by this bill are of latino descent? From what I've read on these boards, you've always jumped to the defense of all sorts of really paleolithic social initiatives trotted out by the GOP. Now that it seems to affect those of your ethnic/social background, you're up in arms. The doctrine of fairness shouldn't be based on mere tribalism alone, don't you think?

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
One of our company's senior managers, a Dutch citizen, spent almost $10,000 in legal fees and temporary visas and 6 years working legally within the system to obtain his green card. The bill you're now advocating means that he would have been $8.000 better off by breaking the law. Seems unfair to me. Punish those who follow the law and reward those who don't

I'm curious of your firm paid for this Dutch senior manager to get his green card. Most firms usually do for their research scientists, engineers, top level management, etc. And even those who don't often sponsor them (for example, my Dad was a senior manager for Exxon in NYC in the 60s and 70s, and the company obtained green cards for all of us which led to US citizenship eventually). However, while you raise a valid point about overall fairness and working within the system, there is a big difference between a senior manager making a six figure income and a marginally educated blue collar or farm worker coming to work for less than minimum wage in the US (often just to survive). The former can afford to work within the system; the latter often cannot. Yes, it sucks at one level, but for skilled professionals, working within the system reaps big awards (high paying jobs, the guarantee of security, etc.), while for those at the bottom of the barrel, the system is often stacked against them and is often punitive. The sooner we realize that our immigration system is broke and put together piece meal, the better off we will be. For one we need to realize that we have a border with a Third World nation and that the poor will always seek to better their lives at all cost. Thus, create a viable guest worker program with Mexico for starters.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
By taking extreme positions he only hurts the party even more.

It's not an extreme position. Look at the poles. The majority of the America does NOT support keeping anyone illegal here.

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Nice wording, Mr. Majority Leader. Sadly, your words are not good enough to hide the reality behind this bill: There is not an amnesty! As Sen. Specter said, "allowing people already in the country illegally to eventually obtain legal status would not be "amnesty" because it would require them to pay $2,000 in fines, undergo a background check, learn English and work for six years before being granted permanent residency."

YES. It is amnesty. There is a big problem with this. Why would you, as an illegal, go turn yourself in and pay the fine and learn how to speak english, if, you are already doing it illegally and getting by with it? They are law breakers now, and I see them to continue to be law breakers because I don't see many of them running to pay $2,000 and learn english to do something they already are.

Listen, SFOMEX, while you and I agree on many things political, letting illegals stay in this country is 100% wrong. They "jumped" the line to get here, broke the law, and continue to break the law. You say they provide labor necessary labor and should be able to stay. I say, at what price? For the past 10 or so years, they've created hell on our health care industry. Look how many hospitals in California alone closed because they couldn't last providing free health care to illegals. Look at how our schools have come down, catering to "spanish" speaking illegals. Look how many car accidents have occurred with illegals driving with no insurance, leaving legal citizens paying the bill. These illegals have gone way past just "providing labor Americans won't do."

They need to go back, start their protests up back in their own country and change THEIR government.

They are illegal, and you want to reward them for their breaking of the law and costing us U.S. citizens billions of dollars catering to them.

They go back. I hope Frist continues on with his bill. I really see the whole thing dead in a month.. but at least it's a start.
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
They are illegal, and you want to reward them for their breaking of the law and costing us U.S. citizens billions of dollars catering to them.

Ask the average American family the following question:

"Would you rather pay $ 12.50 for a pound of tomatoes or allow illegal migrants to work?"

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Look how many hospitals in California alone closed because they couldn't last providing free health care to illegals.

Do tell.
How many?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Look how many car accidents have occurred with illegals driving with no insurance, leaving legal citizens paying the bill.

Again. Do tell.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Look at how our schools have come down, catering to "spanish" speaking illegals.

Our schools have dumbed down for a number of reasons. "Catering to spanish speaking illegals" is not the primary reason. Poor funding, wretched physical plants and the socio-economic status of the school district residents are primary causes.

Lets not scapegoat these people for a variety of social ills in the absence of direct evidence.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 3):
I'm curious of your firm paid for this Dutch senior manager to get his green card.

Yes we did. Which makes it sting even more. We follow the law and are economically punished for doing so. Other companies (i.e. Walmart) break the law by turning a blind eye toward these immigration laws and get nothing more than a slap on the wrist. What incentive do members of a society have to obey the rule of law if enforcement is so subjective. The incentive is there to break the law because the penalties are so minor.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 3):
However, while you raise a valid point about overall fairness and working within the system, there is a big difference between a senior manager making a six figure income and a marginally educated blue collar or farm worker coming to work for less than minimum wage in the US (often just to survive).

Now Jay, this is where I have to raise a red flag. You've often ranted about the bifurcated legal / justice system in the US when it benefits the wealthy. I agree with your previous statements that equal justice means equal justice for all regardless of economic condition. But if we accept that notion, then there cannot be a justice system that condones either class breaking the law, be that Ken Lay at Enron or be that Jose Jimenez at the Rio Grande.

I've got very mixed feelings about the immigration situation. My family came from Argentina in the mid-1970's. At first we were on temporary visas as my father had been transferred here for work. We applied for green cards and the process was snagged until 2 days before we were to leave. We managed to get our Congressperson involved and he fixed the problem with INS. But had he not done so we would have left - the apartment was literally all packed up.

I'm for an open door immigration policy so long as everyone who comes to this country comes willing to work and to contribute. I don't believe we can continue to fund social programs for those who come and do not contribute. School systems throughout the border states are stretched to the breaking point. Hospital and social services are equally strained. While there are countless humanitarian reasons why we should afford everyone here equal access to services, the fiscal realities require that we draw a line somewhere.

If you come and don't contribute, you should be put on the next, bus, train or plane back from where you came.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:37 am

Personally I think this has more to do with Sen. Frist's presidential ambitions than it does about addressing immigration problems. Such crass populism, though, is likely to backfire. The Republican Party has been trying to woo Hispanic voters for years, and the House bill and Sen. Frist's proposals have had the effect of angering and alienating an increasingly important block of voters, and betrays the Party's addiction of pandering to its lunatic fringe at the expense of the public interest.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
Somebody needs to take him aside,and tell him that being majority leader and runnning for president doesn't mix.

It sure didn't work for bob dole.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
It's not an extreme position. Look at the poles. The majority of the America does NOT support keeping anyone illegal here.

Oh but they do support it. Maybe they don't think they support it, but the majority of Americans don't think about what the illegals do to make their costs cheaper, especially when they're asked a heavily worded biased question about illegals in America. They don't have time to think

"well illegal immigrants are the reason produce grown in the US is still fairly cheap, and they're also the reason that beef and pork is inexpensive to anyone who wants to purchase it, and of course, you can't discount their construction efforts...their lack of want for healthcare and other benefits makes employing them in construction projects so cheap! if they get hurt or something, they can't do anything about it because they're illegal! I love illegal immigrants!"

yeah. Americans love illegal immigrants.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
Our schools have dumbed down for a number of reasons. "Catering to spanish speaking illegals" is not the primary reason.

Amen dude. there is not one shred of evidence out there that suggests the schools in this country have gone on a decline because of "spanish speaking illegals." There is far more evidence that suggests we have pretty much done it to ourselves with very few external factors involved.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
The majority of the America does NOT support keeping anyone illegal here.

Oh really? I've heard this claim trumpeted around a lot lately, but nobody has ever posted a source for it.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
For the past 10 or so years, they've created hell on our health care industry. Look how many hospitals in California alone closed because they couldn't last providing free health care to illegals. Look at how our schools have come down, catering to "spanish" speaking illegals. Look how many car accidents have occurred with illegals driving with no insurance, leaving legal citizens paying the bill.

Again, do you have sources for all these claims? Perhaps some studies to back up what you are saying?
NO URLS in signature
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 9):
Again, do you have sources for all these claims? Perhaps some studies to back up what you are saying?

The hospital thing is quite true. My grandma lives in Green Valley, AZ (home of the titan missile museum) and they refuse to build a hospital there because of worries over the illegals crossing the border and seeking free medical care. The closest one is in Tucson, about 30 minutes away. My dad worries about her daily because of this.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
Ask the average American family the following question:

"Would you rather pay $ 12.50 for a pound of tomatoes or allow illegal migrants to work?"

Sorry, but the price of tomatoes would not rise to $12.50.

Per the Center for Immigration Studies: (it's from 1996, but the concept would be the same).

http://www.cis.org/articles/1996/back296.htm
The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term. During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent.

It would increase the costs only very marginally.
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 10):
My grandma lives in Green Valley, AZ (home of the titan missile museum) and they refuse to build a hospital there because of worries over the illegals crossing the border and seeking free medical care. The closest one is in Tucson, about 30 minutes away. My dad worries about her daily because of this.

This doesn't mean it's true...knowing the sheer amount of elderly people living in that part of AZ, it is quite possible that they have a stigma attached to this, and most likely over estimate the amount of money and number illegal immigrants who would use the hospital. "Worries" don't equate with absolute fact.

Not saying that all elderly are immigrant haters or anything like that, but knowing who I do (grandparents, their friends, etc...) this premise cannot be overlooked...
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:45 am

I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 11):
Sorry, but the price of tomatoes would not rise to $12.50.

Undoubtedly not.

But that statement was a highly inflammatory one based in the same kind of non-reality that statements like "illegals are causing our healthcare to collapse and steal our cars" are.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 11):
Per the Center for Immigration Studies: (it's from 1996, but the concept would be the same).

http://www.cis.org/articles/1996/back296.htm
The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term. During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent.

Sorry, but the CIS is a blatantly partisan organisation whose "research" has been exposed to be driven more by the answer they seek than the research process itself. The Economist seems to think differently from CIS where it projects food price increases at a heftier 20%. See “ Oh, say, can you see?” The Economist (March 9, 2000).

bCIS was founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). It hides this fact on its ludicrous website where it pretends to be non-partisan. Although it describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and it works closely on Capitol Hill with immigration restrictionists mostly in the GOP. It supports the views of such people as Peter Brimelow, a British immigrant to the US, who over his life in the US has argued against immigration to the US (read the irony there), especially against non-white immigrants. Among CIS's biggest detractors is the Wall Street Journal.

While I'm sure that the CIS isn't a completely fraudulent research organisation, its dubious ties and dodgy agenda should encourage one to look at their findings with a big pinch of salt.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
For the past 10 or so years, they've created hell on our health care industry. Look how many hospitals in California alone closed because they couldn't last providing free health care to illegals. Look at how our schools have come down, catering to "spanish" speaking illegals. Look how many car accidents have occurred with illegals driving with no insurance, leaving legal citizens paying the bill. These illegals have gone way past just "providing labor Americans won't do."

Sorry, but that's false. The reason healthcare for the poor (legal or illegal) is so expensive is because access to basic medical care for this sector of the population is virtually non-existant, and the costs for office visits are prohibitively expensive. What happens as a result is that people are forced to wait until a condition becomes serious and have to go to the ER, which is an expensive option to begin with, and then have to be treated for a condition that could have been prevented or controlled far less expensively if the situation is caught early and people get the proper help. And the suggestion that hospitals are overrun with car accidents is simply ludicrous.

Suggesting that illegal immigrants are parasites is simply absurd. If anything, we're sponging off of them in our quest for cheap commodities, while self-rightiously saying we have no obligation to them born on a premise of institutionalized selfishness.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 15):
Sorry, but that's false. The reason healthcare for the poor (legal or illegal) is so expensive is because access to basic medical care for this sector of the population is virtually non-existant, and the costs for office visits are prohibitively expensive. What happens as a result is that people are forced to wait until a condition becomes serious and have to go to the ER, which is an expensive option to begin with, and then have to be treated for a condition that could have been prevented or controlled far less expensively if the situation is caught early and people get the proper help. And the suggestion that hospitals are overrun with car accidents is simply ludicrous.

For the sake of argument, let's accept everything you've said. Why should someone here illegally (and as of today at least, they are here illegally) be entitled to taxpayer funded services? Again, I raise the bigger policy question, what sort of message do we send by providing incentives for people to break the law.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
TIA
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:42 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
One of our company's senior managers, a Dutch citizen, spent almost $10,000 in legal fees and temporary visas and 6 years working legally within the system to obtain his green card. The bill you're now advocating means that he would have been $8.000 better off by breaking the law. Seems unfair to me. Punish those who follow the law and reward those who don't.

I am not advocating for illegal immigration, but your comparing apples to oranges. That Dutch guy had the possibility to get a green card the legal way, while most of the illegals don't have such opportunity. Even the $8000 difference you are quoting doesn't change anything since I wouldn't be surprised if illegals paid close to that sum to cross the border. Again, I am not condoning illegal border crossing, but you can't compare a guy who had many options and chose the right one, to a guy who only had one option.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting TIA (Reply 17):
I am not advocating for illegal immigration, but your comparing apples to oranges. That Dutch guy had the possibility to get a green card the legal way, while most of the illegals don't have such opportunity. Even the $8000 difference you are quoting doesn't change anything since I wouldn't be surprised if illegals paid close to that sum to cross the border. Again, I am not condoning illegal border crossing, but you can't compare a guy who had many options and chose the right one, to a guy who only had one option.

Are we or are we not a country of laws? If I pay someone to steal an $8,000 diamond and pay them $8,000 to do this, is the fact that I paid $8,000 to someone a defense to the crime? Of course not. The fact of the matter is that over 1 million people legally immigrate to the US every year. The opportunity of the American dream exists for them. We are taking about the the 500,000 or so illegals who's very first act on US soil is a federal crime.

There are very many Mexicans who go through the consular process and get their visas. We cannot condone a system that encourages people to break the law and then rewards them for doing so.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:27 am

Frist, because immegration is not a black and white issue. Secondly, many do have social security cards and do pay social security taxes. Thirdly, are you willing to let someone bleed to death in a hospital emergency room simply because they are in the country illegally, and quite possibly are there because they were injured on the job due to unsafe working conditions.

This is not purely a legal issue. It is a moral issue too, particularly given the net contribtion they make to the economy. Simply banging on about their being here illegally bespeaks a failure to understand the issues at stake. It is far more complex than that and any solution must take into account that complexity. Simplistic, short term solutions sound nice, make politicians look good to their consituants, but they ultimately fail because no one stops to think through all the implications.

If you want another example, just look at the war on drugs, which also fails due to the same myopic short-sighted mindset.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 6):
Yes we did. Which makes it sting even more. We follow the law and are economically punished for doing so.

One senior manager at $10,000, which is a mere fraction of their compensation, as opposed to thousands at $2000, a far larger fraction of their compensation and in an industry far less likely to pay for it. There is no comparison at all

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
For the sake of argument, let's accept everything you've said. Why should someone here illegally (and as of today at least, they are here illegally) be entitled to taxpayer funded services? Again, I raise the bigger policy question, what sort of message do we send by providing incentives for people to break the law.

People in most any country are entitled to emergency services that are taxpayer funded, no matter their status. Then again, I suppose there are some who would rather people be allowed to die in a pool of their own blood if they can't pay.

[Edited 2006-03-30 21:29:17]
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 19):
Frist, because immegration is not a black and white issue. Secondly, many do have social security cards and do pay social security taxes. Thirdly, are you willing to let someone bleed to death in a hospital emergency room simply because they are in the country illegally, and quite possibly are there because they were injured on the job due to unsafe working conditions.

Isn't that a circular argument. They come here illegally for a job. In order to get that job (i.e. pass the I9 verification) they get an illegal social security card. Then they get injured in the job they shouldn't have been performing in the first place (using the scenario in your example)? BTW - do you have any statistic on what % of illegals pay social security taxes?

What about the pregnant mothers who come here just to deliver their baby? Should their intentional act of breaking the law be rewarded? If so, why even have an immigration policy. Let's just open the doors and let everyone in on moral grounds. Where do you draw the line?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
The fact of the matter is that over 1 million people legally immigrate to the US every year. The opportunity of the American dream exists for them. We are taking about the the 500,000 or so illegals who's very first act on US soil is a federal crime.

True enough.

But you're ignoring the reality that trumps legality here. And that is the fact that we share a unique border like none other where the mere act of crossing it is a quantum leap from the Third to the First World. That itself changes the dynamics of the issue. The majority of legal immigrants tend to be middle class residents of their own countries; the majority of illegal immigrants tend to be the desperately poor of Mexico.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
But you're ignoring the reality that trumps legality here. And that is the fact that we share a unique border like none other where the mere act of crossing it is a quantum leap from the Third to the First World. That itself changes the dynamics of the issue. The majority of legal immigrants tend to be middle class residents of their own countries; the majority of illegal immigrants tend to be the desperately poor of Mexico.

OK, so where do you draw the line? How can we open the border just a little? Should the policy be limited to just Mexicans or should all member of the Latin America's poor be entitled to come to the US? If so, why limit it to that and not all poor from anywhere? If we're justifying this on moral grounds, why is a poor Mexican any more deserving of an opportunity than a poor Guatemalan or a poor Ethiopian?

[Edited 2006-03-30 21:54:46]
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
One senior manager at $10,000, which is a mere fraction of their compensation, as opposed to thousands at $2000, a far larger fraction of their compensation and in an industry far less likely to pay for it. There is no comparison at all

I love it. Now we've got the left arguing that there should be two systems of law in this country. One that applies only the rich and another that applies only to the poor. Hypocrisy pure and simple.

I would love to see you make that argument in your law school class.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
Isn't that a circular argument. They come here illegally for a job. In order to get that job (i.e. pass the I9 verification) they get an illegal social security card. Then they get injured in the job they shouldn't have been performing in the first place (using the scenario in your example)? BTW - do you have any statistic on what % of illegals pay social security taxes?

Yes it is a circular argument, and it is yet another reason why the problem is so intractable and does not respond to simplistic solutions.

Employers are legally bound to provide a safe working environment. Period. OSHA does not make a distinction between those who are legal and those who are not, and nor should it, and frankly I find the suggestion we ought to appalling.

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
BTW - do you have any statistic on what % of illegals pay social security taxes?

Not to hand, and I doubt a reliable figure exists.

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
What about the pregnant mothers who come here just to deliver their baby?

What about them? This happens far less than you think.

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
Let's just open the doors and let everyone in on moral grounds. Where do you draw the line?

Of course that is not what I am suggesting. That would be just as naive as thinking we can stop illegal immegration by erecting a fence and throwing them all in jail. All I am saying is we need to be realistic, to make policy that is fair, and is not swayed by knee-jerk emotivism, paranoia about the US being overrun by foreigners, self-righteous protestations to law that betray a fundimental lack of understanding of the role of law in civil socieity, and on mistaken assumptions of a "fortress America" having ever existed.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 24):
I love it. Now we've got the left arguing that there should be two systems of law in this country. One that applies only the rich and another that applies only to the poor. Hypocrisy pure and simple.

... But it is plausible to argue we already have one.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Look at the poles.

What do the poles have to do with this issue? I can understand why you would examine the polls, but I don't see the use of looking at poles in this case.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 25):
Of course that is not what I am suggesting. That would be just as naive as thinking we can stop illegal immegration by erecting a fence and throwing them all in jail. All I am saying is we need to be realistic, to make policy that is fair, and is not swayed by knee-jerk emotivism, paranoia about the US being overrun by foreigners, self-righteous protestations to law that betray a fundimental lack of understanding of the role of law in civil socieity, and on mistaken assumptions of a "fortress America" having ever existed.

Then what are you suggesting. Specifically.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 25):
Not to hand, and I doubt a reliable figure exists.



Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 25):
Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
What about the pregnant mothers who come here just to deliver their baby?

What about them? This happens far less than you think.

You seem very quick to say that it happens far less often than I think but at the same time you seem to conceed that you don't have reliable figures. I honestly have no idea whether the figure is 1% or 10% but I know it does happen.

The problem with creating a morality based immigration policy is that this requires "moral" choices that are no less arbitrary than the blanket deliniation of legal versus illegal that we now use. Certainly there is no moral argument that supports the notion that Mexicans are more deserving of an opportunity to live in the US than Nigerians.

I agree that there is no simple answer but this seems like the classic example of the slippery slope. If we allow illegal Mexicans to stay, should we extend the same to illegal Vietnamese? Why is it more moral to draw an arbitrary line and say everyone here as of 12/31/06 gets to stay but anyone caught coming in after that date is subject to ..........

What good are laws if we are not going to enforce them?

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 26):
... But it is plausible to argue we already have one.

Of course, and there lies the hypocrisy of the left on this issue. One moment they are ranting against a dual (income based) judicial system when it benefits rich fat cats. The next minute they're advocating a dual (income based) judicial system when it benefit the poor.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 24):
I love it. Now we've got the left arguing that there should be two systems of law in this country. One that applies only the rich and another that applies only to the poor. Hypocrisy pure and simple.

Not saying there should be. This is written as a one off thing in order to deal with a significantly different situation and a significantly larger population, not an ongoing system.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Not saying there should be. This is written as a one off thing in order to deal with a significantly different situation and a significantly larger population, not an ongoing system.

So your advocating a "one off" difference in our legal system as a result of income.

You might want to go ask you professor what "equal protection" means.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
You might want to go ask you professor what "equal protection" means.

I am well aware of what equal protection means. What was your position on gay marriage again (actually can't remember, might be one of the few things you are reasonable about)?

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
So your advocating a "one off" difference in our legal system as a result of income.

No, I am saying that this one off would go a long way into cleaning up a very messy situation in a way that is more economically viable. One off laws are passed all the time. Do you know who Tanith Belbin is?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
What was your position on gay marriage again (actually can't remember, might be one of the few things you are reasonable about)?

Go see for yourself (I've posted the link below). I believe that my position is quite clear on the matter that equal protection should govern the legal analysis and discussion of gay marriage and as such laws discriminating against homosexuals should be overturned on those grounds.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/1098322/6/#ID1098322

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
I am well aware of what equal protection means.

All evidence to the contrary based on your previous posts.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
No, I am saying that this one off would go a long way into cleaning up a very messy situation in a way that is more economically viable. One off laws are passed all the time. Do you know who Tanith Belbin is?

Every time you post you demostrate your absolute confusion over the concepts of law you claim to study. Tanith Belbin, the figure skater who was granted citizenship in order to compete in the Olympics has nothing to do with equal protection.

You advocate different standard for justice based on financial position of the party before the court. Your classmates must laugh their asses off when you raise speak in class.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
"allowing people already in the country illegally to eventually obtain legal status would not be "amnesty" because it would require them to pay $2,000 in fines, undergo a background check, learn English and work for six years before being granted permanent residency."

The first thing that will happen is that lawyers will win injuctions against the fines, find away to have the background checks declared unconstitutional, have the courts declare that having to learn English is discriminatory, and have the courts find that 6 years is an undue burden of some sort.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
By taking extreme positions he only hurts the party even more.

So upholding current law is now "extreme"?

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 8):
Oh but they do support it. Maybe they don't think they support it,

 laughing  Is that like when the girl says no, she doesn't really mean no, she just thinks she does?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
People in most any country are entitled to emergency services that are taxpayer funded, no matter their status.

Even pregenant women who cross the border illegally just for the purpose of having a baby here, no matter how often it happens?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 34):
Even pregenant women who cross the border illegally just for the purpose of having a baby here, no matter how often it happens?

So the baby or mother's life should be put at risk? Also, it doesn't matter where the baby is born, a back alley in El Centro is still part of the US and the baby will still get the same rights.

Quoting Pope (Reply 33):
Go see for yourself (I've posted the link below). I believe that my position is quite clear on the matter that equal protection should govern the legal analysis and discussion of gay marriage and as such laws discriminating against homosexuals should be overturned on those grounds.

Yes, that is what I thought, and if your Dutch manager was here undocumented, I would say that they should have the same rights under this law as a farm worker in Fresno

Quoting Pope (Reply 33):
Tanith Belbin, the figure skater who was granted citizenship in order to compete in the Olympics has nothing to do with equal protection.

It does have something to do with one off laws. The law proposes to allow undocumented workers now in the US to secure documented status through a fine and other requirements. All undocumented workers would be equally protected.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
One moment they are ranting against a dual (income based) judicial system when it benefits rich fat cats.

Define 'They.'

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
You seem very quick to say that it happens far less often than I think but at the same time you seem to conceed that you don't have reliable figures. I honestly have no idea whether the figure is 1% or 10% but I know it does happen.

I know this because I have worked in healthcare for the last 25 years, including administration, patient care and more recently in the ethics field. I know what I am talking about.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
The problem with creating a morality based immigration policy is that this requires "moral" choices that are no less arbitrary than the blanket deliniation of legal versus illegal that we now use. Certainly there is no moral argument that supports the notion that Mexicans are more deserving of an opportunity to live in the US than Nigerians.

Sorry, this makes no sense whatsoever. How can something be both morally right and morally wrong at the same time?

Quoting Pope (Reply 28):
Then what are you suggesting. Specifically.

The first thing which needs to happen is an improvement in living standards in Mexico and Central America. This is largely out of our hands and is dependent on the governments assuming responsibility for their poorest citizens and instituting programs to help bring people out of grinding poverty. If aid could be targeted to specific programs that have a chance of succeeding, that might be one way to go. In other words, these countries need to be more proactive in helping their own poor.

The Economist, in the current issue, makes another intriguing suggestion by improving transport links to Central and Southern Mexico, where most of the poor come from. This would help expand industry and bring the benefits of NAFTA in the areas where it is most needed.

Thirdly, allowing a guest worker program with the opportunity for attaining perminent residency and eventual citizenship is another good idea.

Lastly, there needs to be a recognition that the illegal immegration problem is not going to go away until fortunes to the south improve.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 37):
Congress's act in the Belbin case is a private law. It affects only her. It doesn't create different standards for criminality.

Um, it creates different standards for citizenship. If you are a good skater, you can be a US citizen without going through the normal processes, if you are a farm worker, you can't. That sounds like equal protection to me.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 36):
Thirdly, allowing a guest worker program with the opportunity for attaining perminent residency and eventual citizenship is another good idea.

Does your guest worker plan contain an amnesty program for people already here? Is it limited to just Mexicans? Does it have a cut-off or does anyone else who comes here illegally qualify? The devil is in the detail. You paint broad strokes but leave the real substance out.

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 36):
Sorry, this makes no sense whatsoever. How can something be both morally right and morally wrong at the same time?

I'm not saying that it's both morally right and morally wrong at the same time. I'm saying that trying to create a US immigration policy based on morality is a ridiculous exercise because the lines that have to be drawn when drafting the are as arbitrary as the existing policy. You said

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 19):

This is not purely a legal issue. It is a moral issue too, particularly given the net contribtion they make to the economy. Simply banging on about their being here illegally bespeaks a failure to understand the issues at stake. It is far more complex than that and any solution must take into account that complexity. Simplistic, short term solutions sound nice, make politicians look good to their consituants, but they ultimately fail because no one stops to think through all the implications.

I'm just questioning how you justify the morality of allowing Mexicans and not Salvadorans in your proposal. How is that moral? Why is that moral? But perhaps I'm reading something into your proposal which you don't believe in. Therefore I ask above, will you draw any lines or will we in essence have an open border?

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 36):
Define 'They.'

Charles, you've been on this forum long enough to know that I refer to the same group of liberals who repeatedly (and correctly IMO) attack the rich fat cats (the Lays, the Skillings, the Rigas) for trying to buy themselves a different sort of justice. I'm pointing out that it's hypocritical to say that there should be one system of justice for all and then advocate economic based enforcement of our laws based on the defendant's economic status as is illustrated in Jay's post:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
But you're ignoring the reality that trumps legality here. And that is the fact that we share a unique border like none other where the mere act of crossing it is a quantum leap from the Third to the First World. That itself changes the dynamics of the issue. The majority of legal immigrants tend to be middle class residents of their own countries; the majority of illegal immigrants tend to be the desperately poor of Mexico.



Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 36):
I know this because I have worked in healthcare for the last 25 years, including administration, patient care and more recently in the ethics field. I know what I am talking about.

It's kind of hard to debate when someone says, I don't have the figures but I know that your figures are wrong.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
SFOMEX
Topic Author
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 3):
I'm curious if you'd be as vehemently opposed to this ludicrous bill proposed by this simpering twit of a man if the majority of illegals in this country were, say, of Chinese descent. Or are you all riled up only because the majority of those victimized by this bill are of latino descent? From what I've read on these boards, you've always jumped to the defense of all sorts of really paleolithic social initiatives trotted out by the GOP.

I believe that is quite clear I'm a social conservative and a proud Republican. However, you could do some research to find the many times I've posted my opposition to the war on Iraq and the thread I started stating my support to gay marriage. Hence, it's not the first time I'm at odds with the GOP on something.

To answer your question/irony, I'd have the same position if the bulk of illegal immigrants were from India, China or Ireland. My ethnicity (from wich I couldn't be prouder) just allow me to have a closer contact with the reality behind illegal immigration.

I remember my summer vacations in California during my childhood. I was living in Mexico but I had an American passport, which gave me the chance to come and go at will. Most of my playmates were Mexican kids who were illegaly living in the USA, thus they were unable to visit their relatives in Mexico. I will always remember their faces every time I went back to Mexico, knowing that they couldn't do the same without risking their life and dreams. I know, it was their parent's fault for coming here illegally, breaking the law. Nonetheless, I can't help to care more about the human perspective than the legal one.


Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
I see them to continue to be law breakers because I don't see many of them running to pay $2,000 and learn english to do something they already are.

See above. Most illegal aliens would do anything to get a legal status. Don't believe me? Ask the next illegal worker serving your table or cleaning your hotel room if he would mind paying $2,000 or learning English in order to get a green card.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
Charles, you've been on this forum long enough to know that I refer to the same group of liberals who repeatedly (and correctly IMO) attack the rich fat cats (the Lays, the Skillings, the Rigas) for trying to buy themselves a different sort of justice. I'm pointing out that it's hypocritical to say that there should be one system of justice for all and then advocate economic based enforcement of our laws based on the defendant's economic status as is illustrated in Jay's post:

Oh, give me a break.  Yeah sure

Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
It's kind of hard to debate when someone says, I don't have the figures but I know that your figures are wrong.

If you're that desparate for figures, go look them up yourself. I have more important things to do than produce a research project to justify every single statement I make here. I am not a one-man think tank.

Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
You paint broad strokes but leave the real substance out.

See above.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:01 am

Charles,

Three cop-outs in one post.

So as of now, you've been unable to defend a moral basis for your arbitrary position, you're unwilling to even state where you would draw the line (thereby leaving open the possibility that you advocate no line be drawn and our borders be completely open) and you've been unable to support your statements with a single figure.

Where's the beef?

That's very unlike you.

[Edited 2006-03-31 01:04:21]
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 42):
So as of now, you've been unable to defend a moral basis for your arbitrary position, you're unwilling to even state where you would draw the line (thereby leaving open the possibility that you advocate no line be drawn and our borders be completely open) and you've been unable to support your statements with a single figure.

Where's the beef?

That's very unlike you.

Sorry I got so testy. I'm trying to get a take-home exam done. I probably shouldn't even be posting in the first place.  embarrassed 

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
So the baby or mother's life should be put at risk?

No, but unless she is in the throws of labor she should be transported right back to the border and sent back to Mexico. If she has the baby here and it can be established that she crossed the border for the express purpose of delivering in the U.S., mother and baby should be taken back to the border and the baby considered a Mexican citizen.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
Lets not scapegoat these people for a variety of social ills in the absence of direct evidence.

Ok.. then just go here and read on...

I suggest this to everyone here...

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 44):
No, but unless she is in the throws of labor she should be transported right back to the border and sent back to Mexico. If she has the baby here and it can be established that she crossed the border for the express purpose of delivering in the U.S., mother and baby should be taken back to the border and the baby considered a Mexican citizen.

Except that that is not the way it works in the US. Constitutionally, anyone born in the US, no matter why and for what reason, they are a citizen. If you start creating these sorts of limits on citizenship (even if you could in the US), you then give the government power to limit the citizenship rights of the children of legal non-citizens, then mixed citizen/non-citizen couples, then citizen couples...
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
Except that that is not the way it works in the US. Constitutionally, anyone born in the US, no matter why and for what reason, they are a citizen.

Which is true. I also agree this law shouldn't be changed. But remember, the CHILD is the citizen and not the mother. So... you give the mother a choice. Either you take the child back with you, or you leave the child here up for adoption and you go home. Either way, your choice. Your not supposed to be here, go home, with or without. That would quickly end the practice of coming here just to have a child to get to live here.
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
Except that that is not the way it works in the US. Constitutionally,

And that is one area where I support a Constitutional ammendment. When the Constitution was written getting pregnant in europe and making it here before it was born was pretty difficult. Not so today.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 47):
But remember, the CHILD is the citizen and not the mother.

But the mother instantly becomes the childs guardian and as such is able to determine what is best for the child, stay here or go back to Mexico, which choice would you make?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 47):
But the mother instantly becomes the childs guardian and as such is able to determine what is best for the child, stay here or go back to Mexico, which choice would you make?

I would choose to follow the law. I'll say it again. If we tell the mother that she must return with or without the child, then this practice of sucking down our healthcare resources will come to a screaching halt.

The answer to the problem is simply easy it's astounding to me that there is even a discussion about it.
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Sen. Frist: What's Wrong With This Bill?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:06 am

I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: casinterest, ContentCreator, LittleFokker and 14 guests