rjpieces
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Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:01 pm

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/701583.html

Very interesting article...I'm still amazed at how large a demographic Evangelical Christians are...

NEW YORK - Televangelist John Hagee told Jewish community leaders over the weekend that the 40 million evangelical Christians in the United States support Israel and that he plans to utilize this power to help Israel by launching a Christian pro-Israel lobby.

Hagee said his group would be a Christian - and more powerful - version of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a large pro-Israel lobby, and would target senators and congressmen on Capitol Hill. A quarter of congressmen are evangelicals, and many American legislators represent regions that include a large evangelical population, he said.

Hagee - the founder and senior pastor of the evangelical Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, that claims an active membership of more than 18,000 - said the lobby's activities would be a "political earthquake."

In his meeting with Mekel, Hagee said he planned to establish an effective network of key activists across the United States who can be reached within 24 hours if necessary for emergency lobbying efforts. He said he has already appointed 12 regional directors who are to be responsible for lobby activities in their areas and that he plans to appoint representatives in every state and major city.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
tbar220
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Isra

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:23 pm

But I thought Jews control the United States? We don't need no stinkin evangelicals trying to take over our gig of manipulating the government...  biggrin 
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:45 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 1):
But I thought Jews control the United States? We don't need no stinkin evangelicals trying to take over our gig of manipulating the government...

LOL! Big grin

I would hope that no self respecting Jewish person would buy in to this bull$hit. These evangelical Christians scumbags think that Jews don't go to heaven nor think that God listens to there prayers. This group is totally pandering to Jews because they are financially successful as a group. If Jewish people were mostly poor, I seriously doubt these evangelical Christians would make this kind of effort.

Here is how they really feel behind closed doors:

http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=6311

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcon2.htm

http://www.baptistfire.com/gospel/smith.shtml

I am confident my Senators Boxer & Feinstein won't buy in to this bull$h!t.
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stirling
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:00 pm

Why does Israel need Lobbyists?
Is not Israel a close friend of the U.S.?

What are they really doing here?
Because the way I see it, Lobbyists are the domain of groups that remain outside of the mainstream. Their purpose is to get through non-conventional thinking.
When I think of Lobbyists, I think of the Tobacco Lobby, the Gaming Lobby, the Petroleum Lobby, etc, less than savory groups that need to employ special favours to obtain favourable legislation.

Maybe the U.S. is not as pro-Israel as we thought?

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Hagee said he planned to establish an effective network of key activists across the United States who can be reached within 24 hours if necessary for emergency lobbying efforts.

What the....."Emergency Lobbying efforts"?
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 3):
Maybe the U.S. is not as pro-Israel as we thought?

The U.S. is very pro-Israel and this group has an agenda. As the U.S. slides more in the direction of fundamentalist Christian non-sense, this group wants to get support from Jewish groups that lean Democratic. They want to help elect more Republicans and fundamentalist to power and they want to get support from wealthy Jewish donors.
Fortunately, most Jews are smart enough to see through this crap.

These fundamentalist deep down inside don’t like Jews but they hate Muslims even more. There public support for Israel just helps fans the flames and push us closer to there ultimate goal; a war between Christians and Muslims.
You know the end result of that will be.
Truly scary shit!
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stirling
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
There public support for Israel just helps fans the flames and push us closer to there ultimate goal; a war between Christians and Muslims.
You know the end result of that will be.

Yeah...basically more of the same s**t that has plagued the world for the last 1000 years.
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
Yeah...basically more of the same s**t that has plagued the world for the last 1000 years.

Yep.
Very sad.  Sad
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searpqx
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:28 pm

There have been several quotes from Evangelicals that they support Israel because the re-estalishment of a Jewish state is a sign of the 'End Days', and thus the coming of Judgement Day. Considering their belief that on that day all non-believers, including Jews, will be judged wanting, you would think this would be a case of 'thanks but no thanks' from the Jewish community.
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andessmf
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 3):
Because the way I see it, Lobbyists are the domain of groups that remain outside of the mainstream. Their purpose is to get through non-conventional thinking.
When I think of Lobbyists, I think of the Tobacco Lobby, the Gaming Lobby, the Petroleum Lobby, etc, less than savory groups that need to employ special favours to obtain favourable legislation.

The AARP (retired people) lobby
The trial lawyers lobby
Union lobby
World Wildlife Fund
etc.

Interest groups hire lobbyists to push fir their agenda, whatever it may be. And those interest groups represent a wide range of 'things'.
 
johnboy
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:15 pm

This blog links to a really great, but disturbing Vanity Fair article on the role of American evangelicals in the pro-Israel movement.


http://www.preteristarchive.com/pretblog/?p=6
 
Mir
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 3):
Because the way I see it, Lobbyists are the domain of groups that remain outside of the mainstream. Their purpose is to get through non-conventional thinking.

Not all lobbyist groups are bad. Think of them as salespeople, whose job is it to convince Congress that their products are useful. These can be bad things, but they can also be good things. Last summer I met with a lobbyist for the public transportation industry. His job is to get more money put into mass transit in various communities in the US. I don't have a problem with that at all.

-Mir
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rjpieces
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
These evangelical Christians scumbags think that Jews don't go to heaven nor think that God listens to there prayers. This group is totally pandering to Jews because they are financially successful as a group. If Jewish people were mostly poor, I seriously doubt these evangelical Christians would make this kind of effort.

That's mostly an urban legend (that most Jews buy, sadly)....Sure there will be some extremists in a group of 40,000,000....But the majority of them no longer subscribe to that type of theology...Here is another quote by this guy John Hagee:

In precise and deliberate language, flavored with a rich, deep Texas drawl, he asserted that a growing majority of evangelical leaders do not preach "replacement theology, which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel" and the Jews "have no future in the plan of God." The vast majority of evangelicals, rather, teach that "the Christians have a Bible mandate to be supportive of Israel and the Jewish people without a hidden agenda."

True to that interpretation, Hagee said, "I do not target Jews for conversion."

The websites you linked are quite scary though, and I don't doubt that there are many of these people around....
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PDPsol
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:29 pm

RJpieces,

Evangelical leaders in the US do not represent the interests of our nation's Jewish community or those of the State of Israel. Anyone wishing to form a political alliance with these individuals should think very hard and reject the offer.

Christian evangelical groups wish to introduce biblical ideology into our nation's civil and political institutions. They do not recognize the secular nature of our nation's government and apply the test of religious theology to public policy issues.

These groups do not represent the interests of our nation and our fellow citizens, including religious minorities such our vibrant Jewish community.

These groups are politically powerful and exercise tremendous influence over federal and local policy-making.

The interests of racial, religious, ethnic and sexual minorities are NOT served by endorsing these groups' activities. Thankfully, many in our nation's Jewish community recognize exactly what Christian evangelical groups wish to accomplish and want nothing to do with these people.
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:35 pm

Quote:
I would hope that no self respecting Jewish person would buy in to this bull$hit. These evangelical Christians scumbags think that Jews don't go to heaven nor think that God listens to there prayers. This group is totally pandering to Jews because they are financially successful as a group. If Jewish people were mostly poor, I seriously doubt these evangelical Christians would make this kind of effort.

Great response. My Ultra Funtamental Hardcore Independant Baptist grandfather always says the Jews are hopeless and they all should convert to his religion. Heck, He even tells me that I'm going to Hell for my Anglo-Catholic beliefs. (I am a Methodist that attends an Episcopal Church)

-Delta767300ER
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:38 pm

Quote:
Christian evangelical groups wish to introduce biblical ideology into our nation's civil and political institutions. They do not recognize the secular nature of our nation's government and apply the test of religious theology to public policy issues.

Yes they do and I cant stand it. Our nations govt. is secular and it outta stay that way. Secularism is the way to go.

-Delta767300ER
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:41 pm

Awesome! Israel definetly doesn't get enough U.S. aid as it is...
 
cfalk
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
These evangelical Christians scumbags think that Jews don't go to heaven nor think that God listens to there prayers. This group is totally pandering to Jews because they are financially successful as a group.

Not exactly.

Many Fundementalist Christians believe that Jesus Christ will return once Israel is once again complete, which includes the ancient Israeli tribal areas in the West Bank. This is why Fundementalists have backed up hardline policy against the Palestinians and for outright annexation of the West Bank.
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mrniji
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
I would hope that no self respecting Jewish person would buy in to this bull$hit.

Exactly! Probably this is the first step towards a huge conversion campaign.. I don't trust these Telepastors à la Pat Robertson style, who call for the assassination of head of states who do not follow the "utter doctrine of freedom"  duck 

[Edited 2006-04-06 10:59:08]
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:56 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
Many Fundementalist Christians believe...

They'll believe just about anything.
It's all about the money Charlie. Do you really believe these fundie whore crackpots would have so much 'compassion' for Jews if they were not finacially successful as a group?
How comes these fundies aren't helping there Christian bretheren south of the border coming to the U.S. seeking a better life for themselves and there family ?
Oh wait, those are poor Latinos and mostly Catholics.
Catholics go to hell right?
Please spare us the Biblical crap.
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cfalk
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
It's all about the money Charlie. Do you really believe these fundie whore crackpots would have so much 'compassion' for Jews if they were not finacially successful as a group?

It has nothing to do with money. Those are your prejudices talking.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
How comes these fundies aren't helping there Christian bretheren south of the border coming to the U.S. seeking a better life for themselves and there family ?

Because they have no reason to, in biblical terms, and secondly, what the illegal immigrants are doing is against the law.

I'm soon coming to the US to work. I have a US passport, so no problems there. But my wife does not, and I will probably have to spend at least 6 months on my own before her papers are granted and she can join me. Some have waited several years.

Is it "christian" in your eyes to help people jump the line and get ahead of people who are patiently waiting their turn? Also remember, one of the main reasons for the long waits for legally immigrating is the illegal immigration problem. The country can only absorb so many people in a year without causing social and economic problems. One of the reasons that the State Department is so slow in granting legal visas is that they know there are half a million illegal immigrants every year, so they have to grant fewer legal visas in order to avoid excessive immigration. If you prevent illegal immigration, the State Department can ease up.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
Please spare us the Biblical crap.

It may be crap to you and me, but THEY believe it.
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
Those are your prejudices talking.

"prejudices"?
WTF?!?!?
Are you learing debating skills from Redngold?
Give me a break Charlie!
I know you are smarter than that.
What did I say that could be preceived as "prejudices"?
Are you a part of this group of Evangilicals?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
Because they have no reason to, in biblical terms,

Typical 'let $h!t happen to others' conseravative protestant attitude.  Yeah sure

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
Is it "christian" in your eyes to help people jump the line and get ahead of people who are patiently waiting their turn?

I'd much rather help the Mexican family entering the U.S. illegally than someone from a 1st world nation like Switzerland or Germany just because they want to pay less taxes .


Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
It may be crap to you and me, but THEY believe it.

Thus they are idiots and shouldn't be taken seriously. Why are you defending them?
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cfalk
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
What did I say that could be preceived as "prejudices"?

Because you are charging them with wanting the Jews' money (along with the presumption that the Jews have a lot of it), sounds like prejudice to me, since you have no evidence to support it. If a Fundie preacher tries to convince his church to support Israel, he does it based on the idea of "restoring the land of Israel". They don't want to hear anything about Jewish money, for one thing because it is THEY who are giving money and support to Israel, not the other way round.

Your argument makes no sense, and is based on colored stereotypes. That is why I call it prejudice.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
Are you a part of this group of Evangilicals?

Hell no. I'm a fallen Catholic.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
Typical 'let $h!t happen to others' conseravative protestant attitude.

Mexico and the US simply are not mentioned in the bible.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
I'd much rather help the Mexican family entering the U.S. illegally than someone from a 1st world nation like Switzerland or Germany just because they want to pay less taxes .

Well thanks a f%&king lot. By the way, American taxes are a lot higher than Swiss taxes, so know what you are talking about before spouting off. Taxes are the least of my reasons.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
Thus they are idiots and shouldn't be taken seriously. Why are you defending them?

I'm not defending them! I think their position is stupid. Anyone fundie who believes that the Bible is word-for-word true is a twit, considering how many translations of translations the current Bible is based on. Even the Pope has said that the Bible is largely allegorical, and is not infallible.

I was simply trying to straighten you out on your simplistic explanations on why fundies support Israel.
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
Because you are charging them with wanting the Jews' money (along with the presumption that the Jews have a lot of it), sounds like prejudice to me, since you have no evidence to support it.

Your attempt to label me as "prejudice.
is "weak" at best.
Do you plan on runing for office when you get here?
Trying to line up some donors?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
Mexico and the US simply are not mentioned in the bible.

Now that's a cop-out answer. They are human beings. Does that mean anything to you?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
American taxes are a lot higher than Swiss taxes

OK replace with The Netherlands, France or the U.K.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
I was simply trying to straighten you out on your simplistic explanations on why fundies support Israel.

Sounds like I have a better understanding than you do.
You are 'flip=flopping' on this issue.  Sad
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cfalk
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:50 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
Do you plan on runing for office when you get here?

Perhaps  Smile

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
Now that's a cop-out answer. They are human beings. Does that mean anything to you?

That does not give them the right to wander across borders without permission.

Tell you what. When you can tell me that you are willing to leave your front door unlocked and allow anyone to wander in anytime while you are away, I'll reconsider my position.

In any case we were talking about the fundies' opinion, not mine.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
OK replace with The Netherlands, France or the U.K.

If they do it legally what's your problem with it?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
You are 'flip=flopping' on this issue.

Where?
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Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:00 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
If they do it legally what's your problem with it?

Well those countries are well off and have running water. In many ways are much more advanced nations than we are. I can't imagine any other reason why someone from the E.U. would want to move here other than paying less taxes. That is a very selfish reason for immigrating here.
Selfish and greedy folk are the last thing we need here. We have too many people like that as it is.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
When you can tell me that you are willing to leave your front door unlocked and allow anyone to wander in anytime while you are away

Most that sneak across already have family here waiting for them.  Smile
Now if she looks like Daisy Fuentes or Jennifer Lopez, I'd let her move in with me and wouldn't charge her rent. Big grin

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
That does not give them the right to wander across borders without permission.

That statement is putting government above God's teachings.
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cfalk
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
I can't imagine any other reason why someone from the E.U. would want to move here other than paying less taxes.

That's just ignorant.

I'll tell you a few reasons why I'm moving. Better job opportunities, lower unemployment, a much friendlier culture professionally and elsewhere, at least outside of the mega-cities, more space means cheaper housing, more rights for poor people in terms of rent. My tax rates will go UP however.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
That statement is putting government above God's teachings.

And now who is trying to push a religious agenda? The US is a secular country, with secular law.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Superfly
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
The US is a secular country, with secular law.

Not under Dubya & co's rule.

Cfalk:
I don't want you to think I was making a personal attack against you by coming here.
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rjpieces
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:13 pm

Gotta love the progression of A.net threads  Smile

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
How comes these fundies aren't helping there Christian bretheren south of the border coming to the U.S. seeking a better life for themselves and there family ?

Actually, they are very active in Africa as well as on the environment. Have you seen the commercials recently about serving Jesus by making the environment safer?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
If a Fundie preacher tries to convince his church to support Israel, he does it based on the idea of "restoring the land of Israel". They don't want to hear anything about Jewish money, for one thing because it is THEY who are giving money and support to Israel, not the other way round.

Agreed, it has nothing to do with Jewish money. In fact, Evangelicals give as much to Israel, if not more than Jews. And they do it for pure reasons, not out of a sense of communal obligation like most Jews.

From an article on Evangelicals:
All this hyperactivity is financed by the contributions of evangelical Christians. In the last eight years alone, an estimated 400,000 born-again donors have sent Eckstein about a quarter of a billion dollars for Jewish causes of his personal choosing. No Jew since Jesus has commanded this kind of gentile following.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jacobin777
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 12):
These groups are politically powerful and exercise tremendous influence over federal and local policy-making.

under tax-exemption codes, religious groups are supposed to be non-partisan and are not allowed to endorse any particular party...nor are they allowed to influence any policy making...and they influence more than local-policy making

I would like to know how all there groups get away with it  confused 

The IRS should investigate the the Pat Robertsons of the world....
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PHLBOS
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 12):
These groups are politically powerful and exercise tremendous influence over federal and local policy-making.

under tax-exemption codes, religious groups are supposed to be non-partisan and are not allowed to endorse any particular party...nor are they allowed to influence any policy making...and they influence more than local-policy making

I would like to know how all there groups get away with it

Many of the lobbying groups (religious in origin or not) that you speak of mention quite clearly that donations to their organizations for the particular cause(s) are not tax deductible. The text on such mailings usually reads:

Because our organization lobbies on your behalf; contributions for this effort are NOT tax-deductible.

In short, General donations to a religious organization are tax-deductible; donations for a lobbying cause by the same organization are not.

If a donor later decides to declare the non-deductible donation as a deduction; the error (plus the possibility of an I.R.S. audit) would fall squarely on the donor not the organization. P.A.C. (Political Action Committe) money also falls in non-deductible category.

[Edited 2006-04-07 20:29:35]
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A332
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RE: Evangelical Christians To Start Lobby For Israel

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:24 pm

The whackie evangelicals only support Israel in this manner because they believe this is the way to bring about the 'Apocalypse' and the 'Rapture', as the Bible describes...

Too bad these same people are also mentally retarded...
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