Falcon84
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Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:54 pm

Proving once again that the GOP really doesn't understand economics, it seems that the richer 'n 'God Americans are becoming siginficantly more wealthy thanks to Mr. Bush.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/05/news/tax_cuts/index.htm?cnn=yes

The premise near the end of the article that tax cuts for the rich "don't go far enough", because of the belief that further tax cuts means further investing and spending by the rich, is just a falsehood. The rich are going to buy what they want, and invest what they want, with our without these huge tax breaks.

Give a larger tax break, not to the 2.6 million Americans who are wealthy beyond what anyone would need, but give it to the tens of millions that just get by everyday, and it'll be a bigger boost to the economy than giving these handouts to the wealthiest Americans.

But the GOP is "by the rich, of the rich, for the rich", so no one should really be surprised.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:08 pm

Please tell me how giving someone who pays significantly more in taxes a greater share of the cut adversely affects you? Oh, and by the way JFK was a huge supporter of supply side tax cuts.

Everyone who pays taxes saw their taxes fall under this President. Funny but I don't see the Mass. trust fund democrats volunteering to pay extra in taxes. No sir, they took those savings and put them right into their pockets.

The left's position on this is just another example of their constant inferiority complex. You guys wish you made more money and are resentful of the fact that you don't.

Total tax revenues are up across the board (both individual and corporate). The problem with our budget right now is spending and the GOP has certainly lost all credibility in my book when it comes to fiscal responsibility.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:16 pm

The more taxes you pay the more tax cuts you should get.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 2):
The more taxes you pay the more tax cuts you should get.

Why should someone who works their ass off to get educated and make a lot of money have to fork most of it over to the government. And then why to people get annoyed when they get some of that back. The government is not Robin Hood, it's not their job to take from the rich to pay for the poor. It's the governments job to support the people who are hard up.

If people who have ton's of money choose to support the poor, great, if they don't, that's their choice too.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The rich are going to buy what they want, and invest what they want, with our without these huge tax breaks.

Of course they will, and with more money, they can invest more into the economy.
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dl021
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The premise near the end of the article that tax cuts for the rich "don't go far enough", because of the belief that further tax cuts means further investing and spending by the rich, is just a falsehood

OK...then where does the money to start new companies, recapitalize old companies, or buy the manufactured goods, or employ the people come from?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The rich are going to buy what they want, and invest what they want, with our without these huge tax breaks.

If they have less to invest or spend then the economy suffers from that. If you prevent them from investing in the manner that made them rich in the first place then you're slowing down the economy and preventing people from being employed.

Why do you think the economy would work better if more taxes were taken out? Or why do you think that the economy would not be hurt by higher taxes.
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
OK...then where does the money to start new companies, recapitalize old companies, or buy the manufactured goods, or employ the people come from?

From the millions that those wealthy people had even before their huge tax breaks. That's where.  Smile

You see, if they're that wealthy, all that money does is make them richer. I don't buy the premise that someone already worth, say $26 million, is going to invest any more or any less with or without that tax break that gives them another million a year. They're probably going to sit on it.

This theory that these huge tax breaks for the mega-rich spur the economy is bunk. All it does is increase the gap between richest and everyone else, who, for the most part, don't get anything noticable from these tax breaks.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
Why do you think the economy would work better if more taxes were taken out?

If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I, who are doing all we can to just stay ahead of the game-and there's a lot more people like us then there are the super-rich, you'd see a real increase in spending, because then people like us could maybe replace carpets, or add a four-season room, or buy a computer, or purchase a new car.

The mega-rich are going to buy what they want, when they want, even without these staggering tax breaks. Put more money in the hands of the "middle-class", what remains of it, and that will help the economy.
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satx
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:02 am

You're talking to brick walls there Fal. Here in the US, there is no such thing as having too much money. You can be worth millions or even billions and still call yourself a Christian for Christ's sake.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
The problem with our budget right now is spending and the GOP has certainly lost all credibility in my book when it comes to fiscal responsibility.

I would gather that if there was an "Iraqi war tax" enacted by Congress to lessen the burden on future generations, we wouldn't have to vote out our current legislative or executive branches, they'd be run out of town by crowds carrying buckets of tar and feathers.

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Oh, and by the way JFK was a huge supporter of supply side tax cuts



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 3):
Why should someone who works their ass off to get educated and make a lot of money have to fork most of it over to the government

The problem is that the way the tax cuts were designed this time around, income from passive activities, such as dividends and investments, were reduced at a disparate rate to income from one's labor. Those who do absolutely nothing to contribute to the economy received the largest tax cuts.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
You see, if they're that wealthy, all that money does is make them richer. I don't buy the premise that someone already worth, say $26 million, is going to invest any more or any less with or without that tax break that gives them another million a year. They're probably going to sit on it.

And that my friend summarizes your errors:

#1 - not taxing (or taxing at a reduced rate) doesn't mean that the government is giving them anything. It's just not taking as much. Remember, these people earned their money. The government is taking it from them. Libeals think that the government is entitled to take money from anyone and determine who it rightly belongs to.

#2 - your notion that you don't buy the premise that tax cuts (actually changes in tax codes that affect the computation of taxable income like depreciation, R&D tax credits and repatriation of foreign earnings) increase investment has been completely disproven by almost 100 years of direct evidence. In every instance that the government has made modifications to the tax code which ended up cutting taxes, total tax revenues have increased shortly thereafter. Remember, a rational investor considers their risk weighted after tax return. Therefore, if certain investments are tax preferred (thereby increasing their after tax return), investors are willing to invest more money in them at the same level of risk.

#3 - they're going to sit on it. Laughing out loud funny. Yeah, it's the very rich that keep their money in their mattresses under their beds instead of putting it in the stock market or investing in entreprenurial ventures. Come on. How can you even make that claim with a straight face.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
dl021
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
. I don't buy the premise that someone already worth, say $26 million, is going to invest any more or any less with or without that tax break that gives them another million a year. They're probably going to sit on it.

No one....say this again....no one just sits on money. It's not in their mattresses for christs sake! They take that money and put it somewhere to earn interest. In the stock market (where they are investing in businesses) in the money market (which, like banks, invests money in other places) and directly into businesses. This all spurs employment and consumer spending.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
This theory that these huge tax breaks for the mega-rich spur the economy is bunk.

No, it isn't. Rich people using money freed up by tax breaks helped me start both businesses and employ 7 people and growing, while assisting other businesses survive and flourish....employing dozens...no, hundreds of other people. Serious business here, there is a finite amount of money for even the super-rich...they don't just print it out back. If you take their money from them at higher rates than for regular folks (which happens anyway unless they are willing to either cheat or invest in tax exempt ventures which return less) then they won't have as much to put into the economy.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I, who are doing all we can to just stay ahead of the game-and there's a lot more people like us then there are the super-rich, you'd see a real increase in spending, because then people like us could maybe replace carpets, or add a four-season room, or buy a computer, or purchase a new car.

Are you saying that rich people aren't hard working? Are you saying that they don't spend money on things that help you earn money? How many rich people spent money on first class airline tickets that helped pay your check?

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
You're talking to brick walls there Fal. Here in the US, there is no such thing as having too much money.

Wow, where is having 'too much' money illegal? How much is 'too much'?

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
You can be worth millions or even billions and still call yourself a Christian for Christ's sake.

So, you can't be rich and a Christian? Why? Is there some element of resentment or jealousy causing this expression on your part? Are you saying that people should not be allowed to accumulate wealth?
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stirling
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
The mega-rich are going to buy what they want, when they want, even without these staggering tax breaks

That guy who makes 250K a year isn't sitting at his office right now thinking, "Oh goodie, with this tax break, I think I'll put some new tyres on the SUV...."

However the guy going off to work right now in a car on 4 bald tyres is thinking, "I hope the tyres hold out until I can afford some new ones..."

A 500USD tax break to the middle class would have a much greater effect on the economy than a 2000USD break for the super wealthy.

Like Falcon84 already stated, What would that 2000 buy that they don't already have? Except maybe some new furniture for the vacation home in Cabo. Or some nice imported products like clothing or consumer electronics that just add to the trade deficit anyway....so what's the point.
Damned if you, Damned if you don't. It's why I'm not in politics, it makes me noggin hurt.

The problem as I see it, in order to make US businesses more competitive on the world market, they have been given substantial tax breaks and waivers.
That lost revenue needs to come from somewhere....
I am not an expert by any means and I don't have any answers, but major corporations with "0" tax bills, while the small guy is saddled with a bill representing half his income is just not right.

The system needs to change but I know it never will. The tenacles of the corporate world extend too deep for any meaningful change to occur.

So with that said, Any tax break is purely election year fodder, something the Republican candidates can run with during the upcoming election...even tho' most people hearing it will be saying, "Wha....? What tax cut? I didn't see no tax cut!" Thats because the supply-side guys are running the show deary. You haven't earned enough to be included in the party!
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
Remember, these people earned their money.

Some of them earned it. Some "earned" it the old-fashioned way-via inheritance. They've earned it-they're wealthy beyond belief. They don't need anymore incentive to invest or buy. They can invest or buy whatever the hell they want. Instead of front-loading tax breaks for those people, back-laod them, as it were, for those of us in the middle, barely getting buy, so we can do a lot more for the economy than that million tax break will do for someone worth $50 million.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and those of us in the middle subsidize both.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
#3 - they're going to sit on it. Laughing out loud funny. Yeah, it's the very rich that keep their money in their mattresses under their beds instead of putting it in the stock market or investing in entreprenurial ventures.

Don't be patronizing. They're going to put it in a mutual fund, and just the interest grow. That's what it will do.

Amazing how you guys support the rich getting richer, and the rest of us falling further and further back. And you REALLY think that's GOOD for the economy? That only an elite few can participate in it? Uh, OK.
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aa757first
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
You can be worth millions or even billions and still call yourself a Christian for Christ's sake.

You can easily be a multi-millionaire or a billionaire and still be a good Christian. Since when is a person's religion affected by the amount in the pay check.

AAndrew
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
So, you can't be rich and a Christian? Why?

What did Christ say, Ian: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."

Just words to ponder.

And when is too much too much? You approve of this obscene wealth that some people have, while many Americans can barely stay ahead? When people around the world can't even get one decent meal a day?

Having that much money, in my mind, is almost an obscenity, when there's so much suffering in this world.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
What did Christ say, Ian: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."

But one would never expect a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Another one of those things in the bible where you have to suspend belief to believe.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I,

This is such an unbelievably loaded statement... Why is the middle class always "hard working" and the rich "unnecessarily wealthy"? I don't think it's even worth having this discussion if this is the loaded, completely one sided starting point. How much taxes is "enough taxes" for the rich? What should they be paying? Should they be paying more than 50%? 60%? When will the Left be satisfied that "the rich" are paying "enough"?
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767Lover
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:49 am

It's easy to cast data/facts in a certain light.

Yes, rich people who have investments (which is how many of them got rich in the first place) see a larger cut because their investment number is higher to begin with.

However, there are many, many lower-income and middle-income people who hold stock. Many people who are soon to retiring or already retired have most of their assets tied up in stock--especially if they've been a "lifer" at a major corporation like IBM or GE. I'm sure a lifetime administrative assistance at a place like GE has a substantial amount of her retirement savings in GE stock.

When my retired dad makes $20,000 on Home Depot stock, it's nice that he isn't penalized so much for that investment and contributing to the cash flow of a company that in turn has employed thousands of people.
 
767Lover
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:05 am

I believe a more pressing concern is to:

1) curtail offshore incorporation (also would require some revising of the tax code to make it less attractive to try to incorporate offshore)

2) step up collections of delinquent taxes. My accountant told me that the Governor of Georgia increased tax revenues significantly, not through increased taxes but through an aggressive effort to collect delinquent or unreported taxes.

I read a stat somewhere that the amount of US tax revenue lost due to offshore incorporation was in the double-digit billions during the 1990s.
 
dl021
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
They're going to put it in a mutual fund,

Mutual funds invest in the stock market, and that means they're investing in business. Also, a mutual fund is the means for the average joe to get into the stock market without needing large sums of cash.

Falcon and Satx believe that you should not be rich, or so it seems from their posts. I wonder what's going to happen when a particular online entrepreneur I know becomes rather rich from his incredibly great idea for an online shopping mall
(what did he call that? Oh, yeah.. http://www.yourcornermall.com/ ..damn good idea! I even use it, so we know the entrepreneur is working for the money....)
takes off and forces him to recognize that paying higher percentages of taxes can be oppressive and unfair to people who earned their money.

The idea that one can be too rich is one that is promulgated by those who feel that they'll never be able to be that successful and are resentful of those who are. They then work to punish those who succeed and take from them that which they earned beyond what the rest of society must pay percentagewise. Well, that's counterproductive to the economy. A person should pay based on consumption rather than income. Hey...but that's another thread (fair tax anyone?).
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andessmf
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:15 am

It is very nice to be 'rich'.  Smile

First problem on increasing taxes. Lets say the cigarette taxes. For a 'rich' person, that increase is not that big. For a poor person, that increase is very substantial. Any tax increase will affect the poor more than the rich.

If you take 50% (overall tax burden) for a person making $200,000 a year, that still leaves them with a good chunk of money. Do the same to a person making $50,000 and see what happens.

People fail to see real world connections between taxes and spending. The Clinton tax on yatches (for the rich) is a prime example. They tried to tax the rich, but all it did was eliminate an industry, as the rich went to other places to get their yatchs built.

On a similar aside, years ago an old friend told me how he had shoplifted some clothing. He then claimed that it didnt matter because the company would 'write-off' or eat the loss. To which I had to reply that the company increases the price of its product 20% to counteract the shoplifting losses.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Mutual funds invest in the stock market, and that means they're investing in business.

This is a common misconception about how our economy works. If you buy stocks on the open market, all you're doing is providing liquidity to the markets, there are no dollars that are directly invested into a business.

Purchasing IPO's, commercial paper, etc., is a whole 'nother story, but not the function of most mutual funds.
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andessmf
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
there are no dollars that are directly invested into a business.

Then where does that money go?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Mutual funds invest in the stock market, and that means they're investing in business. Also, a mutual fund is the means for the average joe to get into the stock market without needing large sums of cash

Maybe so, but they're putting it there for themselves, nothing else, Ian. It basically gives the rich even more money they don't need. For someone like me, it's used sort of like an emergency fund, not to pad my stats.

Big difference, if you ask me.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Falcon and Satx believe that you should not be rich, or so it seems from their posts.

Not at all, Ian. but when is enough enough, for crying out loud? $26 million? $1 billion? $50 billion? Most of these hyper-rich people, Ian, can't begin to think what to do with all the money they have. That $1 million tax break is like pocket change to them, as 4 quarters would be to me, man. That extra million in tax breaks won't make them decide not to buy a yacht, a third of fourth vacation home; expensive jewelry. You get the drift. But put $1000 or $2000 in the hands of, say, 70 or 80 million average joes, and you'll see people spend that money. Hell, most won't even spend THAT on the economy, except to pay off bills, most likely.

It isn't the rich who need the tax relief; it's the middle class, which is being squeezed more and more.

I don't buy all this stuff about this tax break helping the rich be the engine for the economy. I never will. Most of them can't begin to spend what they have, and you think it's good to give them more money that they won't know what to do with?

Uh, OK.
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dl021
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
If you buy stocks on the open market, all you're doing is providing liquidity to the markets, there are no dollars that are directly invested into a business.

So you're saying that the money on the market does not impact businesses? That the money invested in the market is not used to increase the capitalization of the listed businesses?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):
Then where does that money go?

It goes to the previous holder of the investment. For instance, I could start up a company, sell stock, and y'all could buy and sell the stock for the next 20 years, and my company wouldn't see a dime past the initial proceeds of the IPO.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
That the money invested in the market is not used to increase the capitalization of the listed businesses?

Market capitalization is simply a figure that is based upon the number of shares outstanding multiplied by the price someone is willing to pay for said shares. It has absolutely nothing to do with the financial standing of the company, except in instances where further stock is issued to complete transactions, such as in a takeover. It is in the best interest of a company to grow and maintain a high market capitalization, but it doesn't have the direct effect shareholder's equity does.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I, who are doing all we can to just stay ahead of the game-and there's a lot more people like us then there are the super-rich, you'd see a real increase in spending, because then people like us could maybe replace carpets, or add a four-season room, or buy a computer, or purchase a new car.

Us and they, they and us is a classist as it comes. Tax cuts must be for ALL and every one of us who work one way or other. If your tax cut is smaller that the one a rich guy gets, you should keep working hard to get a better income rather than be winning.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Those who do absolutely nothing to contribute to the economy received the largest tax cuts.

Are you sure about this? I'm not a fan of the heir who wastes his life living the "dolce vita" on his father's buck, but as long as what he does is legal why should I care. Tax cuts are good for the economy and are good for you; it's all you should be worried of.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
#1 - not taxing (or taxing at a reduced rate) doesn't mean that the government is giving them anything. It's just not taking as much. Remember, these people earned their money. The government is taking it from them. Libeals think that the government is entitled to take money from anyone and determine who it rightly belongs to.

Amen to that!! Economy 101.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
What did Christ say, Ian: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."

Just words to ponder.

Are you sure He was talking of material richness? Maybe, just maybe He was addressing the kind of "wealthy" that makes people arrogant and selfish, which you could find in the poor and the rich alike.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 26):
Are you sure about this?

Yes.
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 26):
Tax cuts must be for ALL and every one of us who work one way or other.

Grand words. But the "tax cut" I get, I don't ever really see. It's not enough to help me or the economy at all, if I so choose. But give it to someone worth millions, does that REALLY matter in the long run? No, it doesn't.

This theory of letting the rich have more so they can invest, is a GOP-induced fantasy. Those people will spend what they will, tax break or no tax break. Give a nice, big tax break to those in the middle every year, and you'll see a real boost in the economy.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Also, a mutual fund is the means for the average joe to get into the stock market without needing large sums of cash.

...and they are generally lower risk than putting all your money into your own company's shares,

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
but they're putting it there for themselves, nothing else, Ian. It basically gives the rich even more money they don't need.

That's called savings. Honestly Yeah sure
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
and they are generally lower risk than putting all your money into your own company's shares,

And a well-balanced self-invested portfolio will have less risk than a mutual fund, and incur fewer front-end, back-end, and maintenance fees, percentage-wise. Overall, a mutual fund is a poor investment except for those who want no responsibility for their finances.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
Some of them earned it. Some "earned" it the old-fashioned way-via inheritance. They've earned it-they're wealthy beyond belief. They don't need anymore incentive to invest or buy. They can invest or buy whatever the hell they want. Instead of front-loading tax breaks for those people, back-laod them, as it were, for those of us in the middle, barely getting buy, so we can do a lot more for the economy than that million tax break will do for someone worth $50 million.

So now you get to decide whether someone is worthy of the money they have. Let's look at the mega rich. The Gates, Buffets and Waltons (three family names all at the top of the Forbes list). All three of these families made their money within one generation.

The estate tax already takes 55% of the ultra-wealthy estates. I guess that 55% isn't enough for you. A person could work all their life to make a fortune and then pass less than half of what they've earned to their heirs.

It's not for us to determine who is worthy of having wealth. As long as a person earns it legally, the government should justify taking it from them on the basis that they have too much. If they do, what's the incentive to take entreprenurial risk? What's the incentive to develop the next great thing?

I guess you advocate that we embrace the motto, "from each according to their ability; to each according to their needs." Doesn't that sound familiar?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
Don't be patronizing. They're going to put it in a mutual fund, and just the interest grow. That's what it will do.

And where do you think the mutual funds put the money? Your ignorance at how the financial markets work is amusing.
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767Lover
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
And you REALLY think that's GOOD for the economy? That only an elite few can participate in it? Uh, OK.

Last time I checked products and services were being bought up by people of all economic levels. Which is why so many people have enormous amount of credit card debt, but that's another thread entirely.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
fair tax anyone?).

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Those people will spend what they will, tax break or no tax break

Yes, they spend on goods and services (like first class plane tickets). Which means that the businesses that provide those good and services (like airlines) can stay in business. Which means you and I have jobs. Is this a difficult concept?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
And where do you think the mutual funds put the money? Your ignorance at how the financial markets work is amusing.

...makes one wonder if there might be a correlation between knowledge of financial markets, or economics period, and the fact that all these "hard working" middle classers stay in the middle class with negative savings.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 31):
And where do you think the mutual funds put the money? Your ignorance at how the financial markets work is amusing.

Again, investing in the stock market only provides liquidity to the markets. It does not directly invest in a business, except when purchasing IPO's, buying secondary offerings, commercial paper, etc., which is not the function of the vast majority of mutual funds.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
Again, investing in the stock market only provides liquidity to the markets. It does not directly invest in a business, except when purchasing IPO's, buying secondary offerings, commercial paper, etc., which is not the function of the vast majority of mutual funds.

Agreed. But market liquidity is fundamental for people to make investments in business ventures. There aren't too many people investing in illiquid investments. Money is fungible.

As someone who has both raised and provided venture capital to start-ups I can tell you that the lack of liquidity for an investment is a tremendous obstacle. The required rate of return for an illiquid investment is much greater than one for a liquid asset. Even Microsoft was a start up at one point and the hope of big gains in the stock market is what got people to invest in it.

Mutual funds add tremendous amounts of liquidity to the market and therefore greated enhance the free flow of capital within the overall economy.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
But market liquidity is fundamental for people to make investments in business ventures. There aren't too many people investing in illiquid investments. Money is fungible.

That is correct. Nearly every law enacted to govern the financial markets is written to preserve liquidity, a telling sign.

However, Falcon wrote an end result scenario more accurate than anyone else in this thread--including you--and you attempted to insult him by saying he lacked an understanding of the financial markets. Unbelievable, but then, this is a.net.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 36):
Falcon wrote an end result scenario more accurate than anyone else in this thread

Which one was that?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
Which one was that?

This one, where Pope made a feeble stab in Falcon's direction that I referenced:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
They're going to put it in a mutual fund, and just the interest grow. That's what it will do.
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 36):
However, Falcon wrote an end result scenario more accurate than anyone else in this thread--including you--and you attempted to insult him by saying he lacked an understanding of the financial markets. Unbelievable, but then, this is a.net.

Please point me to this accurate end result scenario. Everything I've seen he's written on this thread has been 100% wrong.

The notion that tax cuts don't spur investment - wrong.

The notion that everyone that pays taxes hasn't benefitted from the tax cuts - wrong.

The notion that the rich will squirrel away their "extra" money - wrong.

The notion that investment in the markets aren't important - wrong.

So please tell me, what has he been right about?
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):


This one, where Pope made a feeble stab in Falcon's direction that I referenced:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
They're going to put it in a mutual fund, and just the interest grow. That's what it will do.

Let's add one more to the list - most mutual funds generate the vast majority of their returns through capital appreciation and dividends - NOT interest. So that statement is also wrong - both factually according to the text that was written AND the idea that it was trying to convey.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
So please tell me, what has he been right about?

See Reply #38, referencing your feeble attempt to bring someone down with your own lack of understanding. Falcon may have gotten the word wrong, "interest" instead of "capital gains" or "dividends", but he had both the theory and result 100% correct.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
most mutual funds generate the vast majority of their returns through capital appreciation and dividends - NOT interest.

It's really a semantics issue more than anything, and something I pointed out in my previous reply before seeing your Reply #40.

Mutual funds that invest in bonds generate "interest" along with "capital gains", and the amount of money invested in the bond market makes the stock market look like a penny arcade in real dollar terms.

It's easier for people to think in terms of stocks, since that's where the non-institutional investor sends his/her money, and why I pointed that out. But Falcon wasn't incorrect even with calling it "interest" in a purely percentage of the market basis.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
See Reply #38, referencing your feeble attempt to bring someone down with your own lack of understanding. Falcon may have gotten the word wrong, "interest" instead of "capital gains" or "dividends", but he had both the theory and result 100% correct.

That notion is laughable. How many poor people do you see making venture capital investment? The rich are the ones who take their money and invest it in public and private ventures throughout the US and the world.

You even agreed that market liquidity, precisely the type of liquidity provided through secondary markets, is a vital aspect of an efficiently operating capital market.

Now you're saying that Falcon was right. Flip-flopping pure and simple.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
767Lover
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
From the millions that those wealthy people had even before their huge tax breaks

So, to your line of thinking, wealthy people should just pay more for all taxes, even at the retail level.

They should be charged, say 50% extra sales tax for purchasing a new Jaguar, than someone paying 7% sales tax for a Honda Civic.

Never mind that the 7% paid on the Jaguar is already higher than the amount paid on the Civic just by virtue of the fact that it's a more expensive price tag.

This is pretty much what you're saying.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 43):
That notion is laughable.

Let's see your Series 7 license, and then we'll talk.

Quoting Pope (Reply 43):
Now you're saying that Falcon was right. Flip-flopping pure and simple.

Not flip-flopping at all. I realized after reading your reply, that I'd have to dumb it down for you, pure and simply.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
It's really a semantics issue more than anything, and something I pointed out in my previous reply before seeing your Reply #40.

Funny how when you guys are wrong, the explanation always seems to be "semantics".

But as I pointed out, not only was the statement factually wrong - as written - you yourself pointed out the error in the notion that mutual funds aren't an important aspect to our capital markets. Mutual funds and other investments provide liquidity.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 36):
Nearly every law enacted to govern the financial markets is written to preserve liquidity, a telling sign.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
texdravid
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:38 am

All this talk about Tax cuts both pro and con is useless now.

There won't be more tax cuts, and if McCain or any of the Democrats take the WH in 2009, there WILL be a huge tax increase on the upper tax bracket, perhaps up to 40%!! There will be across the board tax increases as well.

Again, my conservative friends, the Democrats are hungry and extremely motivated. Once they scalp Bush and regain the WH, look out for your wallets. Every type of tax, including local, state, and federal will go through the roof in 2009 and beyond.

Who is to blame? Well, Bush himself, for sleepwalking through his second term, continuing to employ 4th rate talent around him, and showing a political tin ear for every problem. You can only blame the liberal media and culture so much, as I have done. Sometimes, you have to look in the mirror, and Bush's second term has been an abject failure. You will not have to wait long, Falcon, till your political dreams come true.

Sigh,

Tex
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 46):
Funny how when you guys are wrong, the explanation always seems to be "semantics".



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45):
I realized after reading your reply, that I'd have to dumb it down for you, pure and simply.

Tut, tut.  Smile

Quoting Pope (Reply 46):
Mutual funds and other investments provide liquidity.

Do a word search on this thread. I brought up liquidity ages ago.
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Pope
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RE: Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 45):
Let's see your Series 7 license, and then we'll talk.

I do not have a Series 7 license, but I think my brokerage and bank account statements provide a tremendous amount of credibility that the ideas I've stated above (and put into practice) are correct. I have stock brokers who work for me, not the other way around.

I do have degrees in economics, finance and accounting as well as 15 years experience in tax consulting, merger acquisition consulting and business operations.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.

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