rootsair
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France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:42 pm

CPR has finally been discarded after 10 long weeks of a Social crisis in France!Jacques Chirac has announced the replacement of the CPE with a device in favour of getting disadvantaged young people into work.


http://libcom.org/news/article.php/france-cpe-law-scrapped-100406

Hope the young folks will be happy with this decision and end all the protests that have been going on !
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
deltagator
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:44 pm

It will not be the end of problems. If the law is struck down and the employment protection continues then expect French productivity to slip even more and unemployment to continue to rise among the younger workers.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
aloges
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Hope the young folks will be happy with this decision and end all the protests that have been going on !

The protests concerning this fraction of politics may end soon, but as long as no one fixes the real problems, people will remain angry. I'm thinking about factors creating the "no future" atmosphere in the suburbs of Paris here.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
teva
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:27 pm

Deltagator,
I do not understand how a 2 years "probation" for young employees increases productivity.
By the way, French labor productivity and quality is very high. So the problem is not here.
The problem in France is a lack of negociation. Government or companies always refuse discussion when there is something new.
they first want to "test" the strength of the people.
that's why we are unfortunately so often in the conflict mode.
the discussion they are opening today should have started before sending the law to the parliament (especially when you know there is a law in France saying that every time the government wants to change the labor law, unions and companies have to talk first, and send their conclusion to the ministers...)
Teva
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jamesag96
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:51 pm

Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Pope
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):

I do not understand how a 2 years "probation" for young employees increases productivity.

Well, I've found that the risk of not having a job is an excellent motivator to do the one you have well.

We own a subsidiary in the Netherlands, a country whose worker protection laws are pretty substantial. My impression is that they may not be as substantial as those provided in France, but honestly I have no basis for comparison. I can tell you that the laws are so restrictive to an employer that we now simply refuse to hire anyone else in the Netherlands. We outsource as much as possible, bringing even the accounting for the Dutch operations back to the US.

If these laws didn't exist, we would immediately be looking to hire 3 - 5 entry level professional jobs which would be perfect for a smart student under 26 years old.

For those in the US who don't understand how restrictive these worker protection laws are, I'll provide a real example. We fired a worker in our Dutch office because he was incompetent. Under Dutch law we had to provide notice and 2 months salary for each year's of employment. Before he left he deleted all the files on the accounting server. Fortunately, we had backups and were able to restore the files.

When we presented this to the Dutch labor court, the court ruled that the deletion of the files, which the worker admitted to in court, did not cause us any harm because we were able to restore the files, therefore, we owed him the full severance. Nice.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Toulouse
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:24 pm

I personnally I'm saddened to see bloody Chirac giving in again. I was totally in favour of the CPE, and am looking forward to seeing what's crazy ideas Chirac has up his sleeves. You know, I once defended this guy, but now I just can't wait to see the end of him as president.

Victory for the unions and the students who are more interested in waisting their time out on the streets protesting for something 99% of them probably don't understand. It was interesting throughout this thing to see the faculties the students usually seemded to be from who were out on the streets... won't say anymore as I may just get flamed.

Anyway, my French friends, I love living in France (so Vive la France!), let's get rid of Chirac, shoot Le Pen, send at least half of the remaining politicians to a deserted island, and bring some fresh progressive blood into French politics, as that's what the citizens of France deserve!
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sebolino
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.

It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post. [censored]

[Edited 2006-04-10 15:31:50]
 
Toulouse
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an idiot starts to post.

So true Sebolino, but we should know only too well by know that a.net has it's fair share of posters that post "idiotic" posts.
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Pope
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post.

Obviously a nerve has been touched. Perhaps the comment stings because of the truth it communicates. When is the French government going to show any backbone? They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Banco
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.

If the public of France are against it, then the government taking this decision is merely reflecting public opinion. Governments do that all the time, and when they don't, people howl that they are being dictatorial and undemocratic.

We can sit on the sidelines and say they are right or wrong, but that's a different question.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Pope
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
If the public of France are against it, then the government taking this decision is merely reflecting public opinion.

Is this really the majority opinion of the people of France or is this the "heckler's veto"? [I don't know, I haven't seen any polling on the matter]

France, like the US is a republic, therefore, the notion that the direct will of the people is followed in the political process is a misunderstanding of how the system is supposed to work. The French elected their leaders and their leaders passed this legislation. If they don't like it, they should throw out the leaders but this legislation by popular referendum on the streets seems like a crazy way to run a government.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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sebolino
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
Obviously a nerve has been touched. Perhaps the comment stings because of the truth it communicates

Hmmm ... Something tells me you are not Danish, but from the same country as the "smart guy" I was talking about.  Smile
 
Banco
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 11):
Is this really the majority opinion of the people of France or is this the "heckler's veto"? [I don't know, I haven't seen any polling on the matter]

No, me neither. I was merely positing an alternate point of view. Any of our French members able to shed any light?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
jamesag96
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.

It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post. [censored]

Hey if the truth hurts.

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.

If the public of France are against it, then the government taking this decision is merely reflecting public opinion. Governments do that all the time, and when they don't, people howl that they are being dictatorial and undemocratic.

I would bet that Chirac's reaction is to a very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):
French labor productivity and quality is very high

That's because no one wants to hire a French person because it is practically a lifetime investment. If you're faced with hiring a French person, or improving productivity, through technology or automation, you'll do everything you can to foster the latter. Hiring an actual Frenchman is the absolute last resort. That's one of the main reasons why your unemployment rate and productivity are sky high.

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
End Of Problems?

HA! If only. Nothing's been fixed, not that it ever will be.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
slider
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.

What color? Like, perhaps, white? Like a white flag? LMAO!

Chirac can capitulate, but sooner or later, France is going to have to have some structural change in their economy and workforce.
 
Toulouse
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Chirac can capitulate, but sooner or later, France is going to have to have some structural change in their economy and workforce.

That I do agree with. Nevertheless, I am always amazed at the international coverage anything that happens in France gets... I suppose it just goes to show just how important (or highly regarded) France is, despite what Bush may want many to think...
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
slider
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
That I do agree with.

It also makes me wonder what, if any, leverage the EU will put on France. If the EU is in fact an arm of economic unity, then this should be an actionable event.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
Nevertheless, I am always amazed at the international coverage anything that happens in France gets... I suppose it just goes to show just how important (or highly regarded) France is, despite what Bush may want many to think...

Could be that they're also detested and that's why they get the pub? There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States, which may explain why the amount of coverage.
 
aloges
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
If the EU is in fact an arm of economic unity, then this should be an actionable event.

How so? The EU does not define all of its member countries' policies, just a select portion that was handed over to it. If the French were making this law themselves, then it certainly is not the authority of the EU.

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States

In parts of the US population, maybe. I haven't witnessed too many of your countrymen display this childish habit.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Toulouse
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
Could be that they're also detested and that's why they get the pub? There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States, which may explain why the amount of coverage.

Which I believe once sadly orchestrated by Bush and his supporters given France's decision not to support him on the war on Iraq. Again I think this anti-French feeling arising from this, again goes to show how important France is considered. What I mean is is that many other large countries disagreed with Bush, but who did the US supporters of Bush turn against? The French, why? Possible because they really felt let down that such an important ally (which France is and remains to be) didn't support them, thus leading to a very infantile responde.

Granted, and even the French admit it, saw it on a recent TV show, that the French are often pereceived as arrogant abroad. As a foreigner living in France, I would not actually consider "arrogance' as a word to describe the national character. And then I often wonder, all this supposed hatred abroad, yet France still firmly holds on to its position as the NUMBER 1 tourist destination in the world... Now that spring has arrived, and as I'm at Toulouse airport nearly on a daily basis, which is a relatively small airport giving the centralised structure of airports in Paris, I again notice a subtle influx of American accents around the place (yes, some business people as all year, but mainly informal looking tourists who seem to be having a great time here!).

BAck to the CPE... can any of my French friends tell me why in the name of God are people still out demonstarting this morning when they've won! The strikes/demonstartions programmed for today by the anti-CPE (loosers, sorry that's all I can call them) are out again protesting as planned this morning. Just shows how bloody ignorant and thick this "loud" minority of students and unionists are!
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sebolino
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
That's because no one wants to hire a French person because it is practically a lifetime investment.

LOL

How accurate !

So you're implying that the unemployement rate is about 100 % ??

[Edited 2006-04-11 11:21:49]
 
rootsair
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:30 pm

Guess what ! The students have promised that they will keep protesting and keeping pressure! Now I really wonder if messing around isn't their main goal...they seem happy with nothing
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Banco
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 20):
What I mean is is that many other large countries disagreed with Bush, but who did the US supporters of Bush turn against? The French, why?

Permanent seat at the Security Council.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
aloges
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 23):
Permanent seat at the Security Council.

China? Russia? I can't seem to remember they were all that much in favour of the invasion.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Banco
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 24):
China? Russia? I can't seem to remember they were all that much in favour of the invasion.

True, but they aren't US allies.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
aloges
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 25):
True, but they aren't US allies.

The Bush administration has a pretty poor track record of caring about its allies. They willfully endangered NATO for the sake of a phoney, illegal war that's brought up nothing but terrorism and unrest. In that light, I doubt France being a de iure ally really makes much of a difference.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Banco
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:35 pm

That's not the point, whether right or wrong. The post was about why France would have copped the abuse rather than anyone else. The likes of China and Russia aren't going to do anything other than oppose the West pretty much irrespective of situation.

On this one, France actively opposed the US, and as a permanent member of the Security Council, had a fair bit of power to do so. Thus, the slating.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
deltagator
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
Quoting Teva (Reply 3):

I do not understand how a 2 years "probation" for young employees increases productivity.

Well, I've found that the risk of not having a job is an excellent motivator to do the one you have well.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Teva but Pope summed it up nicely in my absence. The problem as I see it is that the French employment laws protect worthless workers who do nothing for the company. At the end of the day you work for a company and are expected to do something to earn your paycheck. Under the current system if I hire someone and they are worthless then I'm stuck with them and their salary. To replace their lack of production I then have to take a chance on another person and hire them and pay their salary. I still have the other person but they are doing nothing and collecting a paycheck. You can see the circle this problem can create. I would rather find a way to get the work done through robotics or offshoring at some oint versus continuing to take chance on folks that may or may not work out.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 20):
Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
Could be that they're also detested and that's why they get the pub? There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States, which may explain why the amount of coverage.

Which I believe once sadly orchestrated by Bush and his supporters given France's decision not to support him on the war on Iraq. Again I think this anti-French feeling arising from this, again goes to show how important France is considered. What I mean is is that many other large countries disagreed with Bush, but who did the US supporters of Bush turn against? The French, why? Possible because they really felt let down that such an important ally (which France is and remains to be) didn't support them, thus leading to a very infantile responde.

The lack of French support was one thing that definitely led to the rift between the countries. Another thing to consider is that the US is the world's superpower and that Chirac's goal of building the EU as another superpower in the absence of the Soviet Union led to the rift as well. American views of the French as a bunch wine drinking surrender monkeys is not a new thing over here. With Chirac as the voice of the opposition the French bacame an easy target in the leadup to the war.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 21):
So you're implying that the unemployement rate is about 100 % ??

If companies could get away with not hiring within France, the unemployment rate would certainly head that way.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Toulouse
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 28):
American views of the French as a bunch wine drinking surrender monkeys is not a new thing over here

I do understand your post and mostly agree with you. But it is so sad to see such ignorant stereotypes around (as you've stated above, isn't it?).

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
If companies could get away with not hiring within France, the unemployment rate would certainly head that way

Oh come down to planet reality MaverickM11.

Ok, I'm editing to come back to that point. What are you exactly implying? Some anti-French feeling you believe in? That the majority of French people aren't hard working? Or that there is a section of French people who need a wake-up call... but most of these individuals are either politicians or wouldn't be in the running to be hired by major companies anyway?

[Edited 2006-04-11 17:45:03]
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dl021
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Hope the young folks will be happy with this decision and end all the protests that have been going on !

This capitulation to a small segment of underemployed society is stupid and the government should be voted out of office.

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):
I do not understand how a 2 years "probation" for young employees increases productivity.

It certainly increases efficiency and attention to detail. The need to demonstrate ones worth to the company makes one more creative and efficient. It's economic darwinism.

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):
The problem in France is a lack of negociation. Government or companies always refuse discussion when there is something new.

The lack of negotiation? No, it's the lack of reality on the part of the unions and that segment of the population who wants to participate in the rewards but not the risk.

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

I don't think you can capitulate to your own people. I believe the French did this to themselves and deserve the exceptionally high rates of unemployment.

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
When we presented this to the Dutch labor court, the court ruled that the deletion of the files, which the worker admitted to in court, did not cause us any harm because we were able to restore the files, therefore, we owed him the full severance. Nice.

Yeah.....that's right...I tried my damnedest to hurt you but you still owe me money, and you can't send me to jail for doing it. That's encouraging to employers.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 6):
I personnally I'm saddened to see bloody Chirac giving in again.

Are you surprised? When has he demonstrated real leadership?

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post. [censored]

Well, you were reply 7...that is pretty fast.

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):

Obviously a nerve has been touched. Perhaps the comment stings because of the truth it communicates. When is the French government going to show any backbone? They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.

The French government is simply bending to the loudest segment of the population.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 21):
So you're implying that the unemployement rate is about 100 % ??

no, but it's certainly much higher than most other places in the developed world.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 26):
The Bush administration has a pretty poor track record of caring about its allies. They willfully endangered NATO for the sake of a phoney, illegal war that's brought up nothing but terrorism and unrest. In that light, I doubt France being a de iure ally really makes much of a difference.

Horsecrap. We defend our allies every day, and continue to be the major bulwark against open aggression applied on the West. THe terrorism was already there, it simply has a focus now that puts it squarely someplace besides here. In direct contravention of your theory I'd have to say that NATO was actually endangered by the French desire to increase spending on the Eurocorps and other extraneous non-NATO elements where they could be in charge. Their desire to foment resentment against the US and status quo was injurious to the alliance, and especially irritating from a member that has not been part of the integral command structure of NATO since they threw everyone out in the 60s. Which was destructive to the Alliance.

Fighting terrorists and working for democracy (which I don't see the French or Germans doing openly in Iraq...regardless of how the war started) is very important to every member of the Alliance and the aggressive hatred focused on President Bush does nothing productive for any of us.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
deltagator
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 30):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 28):
American views of the French as a bunch wine drinking surrender monkeys is not a new thing over here

I do understand your post and mostly agree with you. But it is so sad to see such ignorant stereotypes around (as you've stated above, isn't it?).

Do remember there is an ounce of truth in every stereotype. Not to say they are always correct but they do arise out of something that is true. I do see what you mean with the ignorance. As some Americans have this view of France we also know that some of them have views of us being a bunch of rude, fat cowboys with no class. They might be onto something though given the fat asses on planes and the so-called success of Brokeback Mountain.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 30):
What are you exactly implying? Some anti-French feeling you believe in? That the majority of French people aren't hard working?

Nope, nope, and nope. I'm SAYING, not implying, that given a choice between a French employee subject to French labor rules, and someone that is not subject to French labor rules, you'd be out of your mind to choose the former. It's simple supply and demand. French workers are extremely expensive and are long term investments due to French labor laws. If anyone, even you, can hire someone that is not as expensive and/or long term but has the same qualifications, you'd hire them instead.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dl021
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
French workers are extremely expensive and are long term investments due to French labor laws. If anyone, even you, can hire someone that is not as expensive and/or long term but has the same qualifications, you'd hire them instead.

The problem is not necessarily the investment, which is worthwhile for good employees, but the fact that this often becomes a bad expense which you are forced to continue due to labor laws that prevent businesses from making rational decision when employees become either rendundant, unproductive or simply wrong for the post.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Toulouse
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RE: France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 32):

I suppose there may be some truth in steretotypes. Fair post DeltaGator!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):

Now I have you a bit clearer MaverickM11, I do agree with you (to a certain extent). I misunderstood you by thinking that when you referred to hiring French workers you were making a comment against the French people, but now that you've clarified that what you actually mean is employing PEOPLE (be they French or whatever nationality) UNDER French labour laws, well there I agree with you largely.

Anyway, its 11:40 pm here in Toulouse, I'm tired, need to get up early and can see I'm no longer making much sense, so good night all from France.
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